Newbie boolitcaster in need of assistance.

[Korporal]

Hello, I have some trouble with my boolit casting and I hope some one can share some of their expertise to help me out.

First some facts:

Tools:
- Lee Bottom pour pot
- Flux (fine saw dust)
-Two of the Lee 6-Cavity Bullet Mold 452-255-RF 45 ACP, 45 Auto Rim, 45 Colt (Long Colt) (452 Diameter) 255 Grain Flat Nose (one new and on used)
- .452 sizing die


Alloy:
"M" alloy contains: 12%Sb, 4%Sn and 84%Pb.
"S" alloy contains: 2%Sb, 0,10%Copper and 97,9%Pb
Pewter contains: ???

My boolit alloy is a blend of the three above, and one batch is containing:
M alloy = 7,93lb
S alloy = 13,20lb
Pewter = 0,88lb

Alloy temp at the moment of casting = 625F - 788F (been testing different temperatures)
Mold temp at the moment of casting = From wrinkling boolits to frosted boolits.(Been testing Mold temperatures)

Now to the problems at hand. :-)

About 1/3 or more of the boolits are coming out useless.

1. Some boolits are frosted from the base and half way up. The seizer die does not touch this area. It has a smaller diameter.

2. On some boolits this frosting appears only where the two mold half's meet, also from the base and up half way. Here it is a frosted indent with a little rough surface that clearly becomes visible after seizing. I suspect the used mold to be blamed for this. Ventilation problem?

3. The seizing die does not work the entire circle of most of the boolits even if they look perfect. Actually only a small number of bullets get seized on all bearing surfaces. Why the variation?

I see that the mold size and seizing die are the same dimensions. I guess that is why the die doesn't work the entire surface. Does it matter? . What do I do if my revolver need .452 or .453 boolits?

All help and tips is very appreciated :-)

[prs]

Re-melt the whole lot. By weight and light algebra or math figure your alloy percentages. Pewter is variable, visit RotoMetals sight for some examples of foundry pewter. That particular boolit is usually pretty easy to cast, it is a caster friendly design in my opinion.

Inspect the molds for lead splatter on the block faces that make the boolits out of round. Inspect for "dings" or dents that also may hold the faces too far apart to drop round. If the out of round is perpendicular to the seam, you need to search on the casting term "Beagle" to learn how to shim the faces to get full sized round boolits. Work with a consistent cast temp. Lee 6 cav molds like it hot. 700 or 725F will help you smile. Get the mold up to temp fully before keeping any boolits. At 700+ F temp, that will be a lightly frosted boolit drop from every cavity and even frosting all over each boolit. If you like shine on your boolits, then back off the temp after achieving the heat; work down, not up. Then your pace. Once you get it dropping the way you want, start keeping boolits and do not pause or stop of diddle about with the pot or the molds, cast, cast, cast. Trouble is, with two 6 cav molds and 255g boolits, the pot will deplete quickly. Good to have a pot of hot molten alloy from which to dip into your production pot.

Enjoy. And your English is fine.

prs

[bangerjim]

Too much Sn. You only need 1-2% max for fill-out. Keep the pewter for sweetening pure lead.

Sn will make your boolits lighter and could cause that size problems you are seeing. It also lowers the melt temp and can frost at standard melt temps of normal boolit alloys. i melt high Sn alloys and they melt around 400-450F.

What hardness are you trying for? You also have plenty of Sb! Get some pure.

Do you have a hardness tester? If not do a search on here about using artist pencils to (roughly) the hardness.

I cast that same mold with an alloy of 12 Bhn with great success. I also powder coat. PC will add 0.002 thousands to your boolits.....one coat. When they "squeeze" thru your sizing die, they will conform to whatever size the die is. Hope you can find powder coating materials over there. It is cool and eliminates the need for grease lubes and also eliminates leading. And allows you t stretch your boolit size a few thou if needed. Check out the stickys on alternate coatings.

I have found frosty boolits shoot just as well as shiny ones!

Good luck over there! And welcome!

bangerjim

[243winxb]

used mold to be blamed for this. Defective mould, this is why it was sold.

[Korporal]

I might agree that the used mold probably is defective. I think the main problem with this mold is the partially frosting and lack of alloy where the frosting appears, is it a venting problem? I will try to recreate the vents between the cavities before scraping the mold.

My melting pot pours rather fast. Can that cause problems for the venting? Maybe air gets trapped and makes the rough surface and that its not at all frosting.

The BHN of these bullets 24hours old is 15-16. Air cooled.

It actually was some lead splatter between the two halves on the new mold. Shouldn't that only make the bullet bigger and out of round?

The problem is that the bullets is equal, some a bit bigger than the seizing die at .452. I guess this is normal.

Maths is not my field of expertise. I have been able to use a "ray" gun at the local scrap yard to analyze my alloy. Maybe I'll go there to morrow if some one here cant help me with the calculations :-)
The bullets comes out weighing 247-249grs (should be 255grs). A bit light, but expected when I use so much Sn and Sb. I have some more of that 2%sb alloy I can try to blend in to get a lower Sn and Sb content? I have no pure lead.

I'll upload som pics when I get home from work.

I casted in pour light and with two molds and under some time pressure. I have to do a testing in daylight with no one nagging on me to be finished.

[1johnlb]

Slow down, to much worrying. The target doesn't care what the boolits look like! Are you shooting long range? If not just load some and see what they look like on paper. To much overload on what they look like, your putting to much in something that may not matter at all. Most of my guns shoot pretty, ugly, perfect, and imperfect all the same. Let you bore and target tell you if you need to change something.

[Korporal]

@1jhonlb: Hehe I might just give you wright on that one:wink: I have a tendency to go in full throttle on my projects.
And I am a perfectionist!

What worries me in all of this is leading due to gas leakage. I am one month away from buying my first gun, witch will be a Uberti 1873 Cattleman 45lc. I also have ordered a Remington 1911 R1 45ACP. For the 1911 I have ordered a 6 cav mold with the 200grs SWC.
In Norway we have to document a membership and activity for the last 6 months borrowing a gun from the range. I have spent this time learning about alloys and casting bullets. And I feel that I have almost come to the part where I need the gun for further testing.
Although I would like the bullets to look "healthy" ;-) I just don't like it when I know or can see something is half done:-)

[Wayne Smith]

You have time to play with your alloy. You are making very hard boolits and this is not necessary. 30-1 lead/tin mix was traditional for the old black powder loads, it is all you need now. Soften that alloy significantly and see if you don't get better fill out of your molds. I'll second BadgerJim on this. You don't know if the mold is defective until you get that alloy softer.

Why the copper? Was it already alloyed in? What you have is some nice rifle boolit alloy in your M alloy, and probably in your combo as well. Way too much antimony.

[1johnlb]

Korporal now I understand.

It's not uncommon to have parts of the grease grooves not touching the die and being sized. Lots of different things can cause this and you have been given a lot of good advice already. I would add to make sure there's no oil in the mold and the previous owner may have used a release agent in it, that can be removed.

By the way great choice in your first fire arms.

[Echo]

1. Some boolits are frosted from the base and half way up. The seizer die does not touch this area. It has a smaller diameter.

2. On some boolits this frosting appears only where the two mold half's meet, also from the base and up half way. Here it is a frosted indent with a little rough surface that clearly becomes visible after seizing. I suspect the used mold to be blamed for this. Ventilation problem?


I believe you are right - I would say that you have a venting problem on one of your molds, maybe both. Take a polishing stone, or jeweler's file, or something else that is not too aggressive, and 'break' the upper corners of the offending mold blocks. Just enough to see that something has been done. I am speaking of the top edges of the mold blocks, where they meet under the spru plate.
And try to adjust the flow rate of the Lee pot. I know it will be difficult and I have no Lee pot any more to try out solutions, but pouring too fast can cause venting problems - the alloy is entering too fast to allow the air to escape. I think...
And speaking of spru's - make sure that you have a good-sized spru 'puddle' to provide alloy for the boolit for when it shrinks as it sets. You should see a 'dimple' form over each cavity, showing that the boolit, in shrinking, is sucking still-melted alloy down in to take up the space caused by the shrinkage.

[bangerjim]

I have that 45LC you are getting. Lots of fun! It as most revolvers will shoot just about anything you stuff in it! Don't get lost in the weeds. Load those 45LC's and shoot them. The 45 ACP will be more "picky" due to short case and throat interference on the nose/case. I load 5 different 45's for my 1911's and after sizing to 0.451 and using a Lee factory crimp die, all load and shoot 100%! You will only know about any cycling problems when you actually have your gun. They all are a bit different. I have 2.

And soften up that alloy!!!!!!!!! That is way too hard for your guns. I use 15Bhn in rifles! And too much Sn and Sb.

And remember, powder coating pretty much eliminates all that worry you now have about hardness. For subsonic, just cast in the 10-12 range.

Get your gun.....load some up and shoot them!


bangerjim

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

snip...
And speaking of spru's - make sure that you have a good-sized spru 'puddle' to provide alloy for the boolit for when it shrinks as it sets. You should see a 'dimple' form over each cavity, showing that the boolit, in shrinking, is sucking still-melted alloy down in to take up the space caused by the shrinkage.
Korporal, It's tough for me to understand your issue without seeing a photo.
But, as Echo mentioned about shrinkage...
I too, have had problems with Shrinkage.

I believe the major cause is by too small of a sprue puddle, as the alloy solidifies it can shrink, especially if there isn't enough molten puddle on the sprue plate to "pull" in more alloy.

I get it more on long rifle boolits...and more so on Lee 2 cav molds. I attempted to add to the venting, but I think the real problem is the sprue plate design and it's inability to hold a large sprue puddle
As you can see in these flawed boolits. It didn't matter if the mold was hot enough for a fully frosted boolit or if it was cooler.
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/boolitsShrinkageflaws_zps195192dd.jpg

[bangerjim]

Of all the slugs I cast, I got many boolits that used to look like the ones above^^^^^^^^^!

After messing around with temp, preheating, alloy, just about ever variable.........I finally found pressure casting with my Lee 4-20 solved all the fill problems. I only use it on a couple molds, but it is a trick you have in your bag to try. Try it. You still need to use all the pre-heating rules....very important because you do NOT have a sprue puddle, but the lead that is up inside the spout. If your sprue plate is not up to FULL casting temp, your spout will freeze and you have to heat it with a butane grill lighter to liquify the lead in it. If up to temp........."go fir it!" Only a little trial will show you how to successfully use the technique.

Gives me perfect 150 & 170 gn 30 cal boolits!

bangerjim

[Korporal]

Thanks for all help and tips. I have been testing some of the suggestions this evening and I have come a little closer to success.

This Is what I have done this session:

I made a softer alloy containing: 16,53lb S alloy and 5,51lb M alloy. This alloy had trouble with filling out the mold so I added 0,22lb Sn. This made the cut and the alloy filled properly. The frosted area at the seams from the base an upwards did not appear. All of the bullets did not look perfect until it were lightly frosted. Then it stabilized.
Both molds preformed equally. Every thing I comment from now on applies to both molds.

So far, so good! Well.... NO!
I made eggs! The diameter varies ,003" on every bullet. But there vas a clear pattern. The smallest measurement was measured from seam to seam and the biggest was measured 90 degrees away from the smallest measurement.(both molds)


I also tried some COWW(4,4lb) added 1,23oz Sn to make it fill out.(COWW contains 3%Sb and 97%Pb)
the bullets came out the same as with the recipe above. Didn't make any difference.

As mentioned the mold temp was "lightly frosted" bullets. The alloy temp was 715F. I tried 750F but it didn't make any difference.
Tried pressure casting. Same result, slightly smaller bullets though.??

I'll try to post some pic's in the next post.

[bruce381]

""All of the bullets did not look perfect until it were lightly frosted. Then it stabilized."'

This is what i cast at a light frosting, if the molds are out of round you can lap them, plenty of stickys to read.

But basicly case a few boolits then center drill a small hole into the base, insert a small screw put back into mold and apply some lapping grit like comet clenser used to clean pots and pans.

Then with a screw driver turn the boolist in the mold a few turns to open the cavitys and to clean them up.

[Yodogsandman]

I also shoot "lightly frosted" boolits. As long as your boolits are well filled out with good bases and with no visible voids, shoot them. After casting your boolits, wait to size and lube them for about 10 days. This allows your alloy to rest and stabilize. They just might get a little bigger. Then go out and shoot some to see how they work before any drastic measures or modifying your mold.

Enjoy your new hobby, it's a lot of fun!

[Korporal]

114034114035
114036114037114038

On the pic of the bullet you can se the difference in surface. This has been seized .452

I have now lapped the used mold as a test and if this works I will also lap the new mold. And as you can see it removed a significant amount of material in the area that I expected. High hopes :-)

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

114037
I have now lapped the used mold as a test and if this works I will also lap the new mold. And as you can see it removed a significant amount of material in the area that I expected. High hopes :-)

I'll be curious about your Lapping results.
My first attempt using automotive polishing compound never changed the size of the boolit, that the mold dropped, even after 4 different times on one mold...my post about that below. But I did have success in polishing the cavities so the boolits would drop freely. What type of abrasive/polish are you using ?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?189534-Lee-30-cal-2-cav-molds-not-necessarily-as-advertised&highlight=

[Korporal]

I'll check what the compound is tomorrow. It is a sort of diamond abrasive compound. I says #7 on the lable if I remember correctly. I am about to test the mold as we speak. Update will come in an hour or two:-)


Edit: abrasive compound:-)

[Korporal]

Big disappointment! It helped next to nothing. I have got some tips on realigning the mold, and that will be the next thing to try.

Again, thank you all for god help!

[1johnlb]

Are all the cavities the same way? It almost looks like two different halves. Hard to tell from the pics but the bands on one side look much thicker in length and on the other looks thicker in width. If that's the case, there's probably no help for it.