Dip or bottom pour?

[oneMOA]

With my recent purchase of a BPCR in 45/70, I've been testing boolits and the 535 Postell seems to be the most accurate with my 1/18 twist barrel. I'm beginning to look at casting boolits for this rifle and browsing this forum for an education. I have zero experience in casting boolits so I don't want to go down the wrong path with equipment and have to buy twice. Today at the range and speaking with a couple of BPCR silhouette shooter who seem to have good knowledge of the BPCR rifle as they both own one and shoot it well, about their casting advice.

Both advised me to go with a melting pot and ladle because this method would better fill the mould cavity and produce better boolits, as opposed to a bottom pour furnace like the Pro Melt. I have learned from this forum about the importance of mould temp and casting temp and the need for a consistant and generally fast rythm to keep the mould temp up. It seems to me that a ladle dipping in a pot would be less consistant and temps would vary when going from the pot to mould and back again for each cast.

Does this make any sense for this size of boolit? Would a bottom pour furnace give me problems with making quality boolits? Most likely a single cavity mould would be in play here as well.

[RED333]

A ladle can be used to pressure pour, I started that way. Cast "00" that way for a few months.
Then went to a bottom pour, if I have to go back to a ladle I will, but I like the bottom pour.
You can get good with a ladle and keep your mold hot, I have a buddy that says he can out cast
me using a ladle and me with the bottom pour, I am not gona race him. I have seem him cast,
he is fast.
Let a few others chime in before you decide.

[TXGunNut]

Some of the BPCR moulds do seem to do better with a ladle but I would recommend a bottom pour pot for more flexibility. Just because it's a bottom pour pot doesn't mean you can't use a ladle. A 45-70 led me to boolit casting but I have found many other projects since then, most do better with a bottom pour approach.

[Wayne Smith]

If you are gonna limit your casting to 45-70 and big boolits I agree with the guys. Of course, I ladle pour everything, so my opinion may not carry much weight. If I were buying a bottom pour pot I would look for one that I can use a ladle in just for the big boolits.

[Stephen Cohen]

I have only just started using a bottom pour due to nerve damage in my back and hands, I was much faster using the pot and ladle but it is not about speed in my view. The biggest I cast now is 460gr 458 and I have no problems keeping them well within that weight range. If I was in your shoes I would ask a friend if I could try his bottom pour and make a decision based on my own observations.

[country gent]

I cast billets in the 400-550 grn range from .40-45caliber for bpcr. I personally perfer a ladle for them ( I cast some years ago witha lee production pot) I have found better consistency with the ladle as far as size and wieght are concerned. Im not after quanity but quality. My molds are all single cavity and I use a pot that holds just over 100lbs of alloy (20-1). I use a thermometer and maintain a consistent temp also. I find I get a better fill and sharper bases with the ladle than the bottom pour pot. I also over pour my molds alot keeping them hot longer. If you can borrow a bottom pour pot and ttry it it would be great giving you the experience to make a truly informed decission. My ladles have the spouts opened up to .200 -.210 and pour a full stream. I perfer the rcbs ladle opened up. Also start with a ladle pot of some size and even if you decideto go bottom pour it will work for smelting scrap lead and blending alloys for ingots.

[gwpercle]

My experience has been that I can cast a lot more boolits with a bottom pour. But I am picky about perfectly filled out boolits with no visible flaws. So I wind up throwing a lot of them back. I cast more keepers with a ladle, the kind with the spout on the side, I tried pressing the mould sprue hole up to the bottom pour spout but that method didn't work out either. Maybe I'm not doing it right....the bottom line is I cast more perfect keepers with a ladle and if I'm using Lyman moulds I will use two, let one cool while filling the others.
Maybe if I weren't so picky and had some 6 cavity moulds I could get the bottom pour to work for me. Most of my moulds are old single and double cavity.
The other day I sat down with my Lee bottom pour pot, filled with 10 pounds of metal, and poured all the Lee C312-185-1R boolits I could in one sitting. I was determined to make that bottom pour pot work for me. That night I inspected them, 98 % had some kind of flaw, and wound up throwing every one back and recasting them with my Lyman ladle. Just about every one cast with the ladle was a keeper. I have a feeling I just haven't hit the right technique yet.
I'm thinking about plugging up the bottom spout and using it as a 10 pond dip pot.
Gary

[Vinne]

If you are gonna limit your casting to 45-70 and big boolits I agree with the guys. Of course, I ladle pour everything, so my opinion may not carry much weight. If I were buying a bottom pour pot I would look for one that I can use a ladle in just for the big boolits.

Second on that...The best of both worlds!!

[1911KY]

Just a couple of things that I noticed from ladle pouring recently:

First, you always have both hands occupied when ladle pouring and you have to constantly put your ladle down to grab your wood dowel to open the sprue plate. Not a huge issue but something to consider. Granted you will have your hand on the pour release in the bottom pour alternative but it is technically free if needed.

Second, unless you buy a nice ladle it can be hard to get enough lead to fill a multiple cavity mold in one pour. Especially as you get to the bottom of your pot, when you can't completely fill your ladle.

Not deal breakers by any means, just something to think about.

[Tatume]

My preference for almost all casting is for the ladle. It produces the best bullets for me. Although I also have a bottom pour pot, I rarely use it.

[JSnover]

Try it both ways. As your rifle tells you which load it likes, your mold will tell you which method it likes.

[oneMOA]

It seems the trend is toward ladle pour and I can deal with that. As a perfectionist (my Wife has a different name for it, something about anal) I have always been interested in precision shooting and the process of acheiving the highest level of accuracy. That philosophy will also apply to my 45/70 BPCR Browning. Since a ladle and pot is less expensive than a Pro-Melt for example, I think that's the way I will go for the time being. I spent some time this weekend with a friend who has a bottom your furnace (Lyman 20) and cast some boolits in his Saeco moulds. He also cast boolits and while the base on the vast majority looked good, both his and mine, the weight variance was larger that most of the boolits I have purchased online from several casters.

Can you guys recommend a ladle size and brand, maybe even a model # best suited for the 535 Gr boolit I will be casting? Did I mention I will be using 20/1 lead to antimony for my bullets. This would be a foundry metal and of course tin is avaliable but cost more. I also think I will not be sizing, provided I can get consistant boolit diameters, as cast. I can borrow moulds from my friend to experiment, but as I say, I eventually will most likely go with a custom mould. I will need to have the answer about the consistant boolit diameters first. Sizing seems a step backwards.

[Toymaker]

Ok. I have two pots. One is a bottom pour and is reserved for pure lead. I cast all my round ball from it. The second is for alloy and I ladle cast with it. Reason - the alloy is used for larger bullets, 500 grain .451, 405 grain .459, 500 grain .452, 535 grain .459 and 255 grain .452 .

The first bullet was for a Creedmoor Rigby. They looked great but the rifle didn't like them. So I tried pure lead, bottom pour. I could NOT get the mold to fill out. So I started dipping from the bottom pour pot. IT WORKED - FANTASTICLY. The .459 bullets are for a rolling block 45/70. I get beautiful bullets by dipping. I got curious and tried the bottom pour pot - no joy. I'll note that my nose pour 535 grain bullet is the easiest to cast with. Nice crisp, sharp edges. In the future any new mold I get will be nose pour if possible. The .452 bullet is for a 45 Colt. Again, really nice bullets dipping, no joy using the bottom pour pot.

So, curious again I decided to dip from the bottom pour pot and make round balls. They looked just as good as those I get with bottom pour. But, I compete with round balls and muzzleloaders, and I weigh the balls separating them into 0.5 grain groups. Using each method I cast 100 round balls. Dipping gave me fewer rejects due to low weight (5% versus 20%), a higher norm (97.5 to 97.9 grains versus 97.0 to 97.4 grains) and more "heavies" (98.0 to 98.4) for competition.

If I had it to do over again I'd only go with a wide mouth pot so I could dip cast and nose pour bullet molds.

[Shiloh]

Bottom pour.

Shiloh

[country gent]

Rowel ladles are the industry standard in die casting shops and a lot of caster like the #1 when bullet casting and bigger models when pouring ingots. I beleive the #1 will holds close to a lb of lead. Alot to be handling for a casting session. I have lyman and rcbs ladles I use and both work great. I opened the spouts on both up to .210 dia for faster flow bigger stream. Theu come around .185 or so. I cast all bigger bullets. My ladles have seveal modifications madeto them. Slightly longer handles. A stop just behind balance point ( allows me to hook on edge of pot and leave ladle submerged keeping it hot) And the spouts angled noses have been lapped to tru angle for when I want to pressure pour. I like the ridge on the bottom of the rcbs ladle as it allows me to "hook" spue plate and make sure its fully closed. The square back shape of the RCBS allows for dipping the pot lower also. I cast 535 grn postells and the RCBS has plenty for the bullet and sprue over pour

[Bent Ramrod]

I find, like gwpercle, that I can cast a lot more boolits in a given time with a bottom pour, but in any rifle caliber from 30 up the reject rate is so high that it is more effective to cast them with a ladle. I get fewer boolits, but they're almost all keepers, so I ladle cast the big ones and save the bottom pour for pistol boolits. A big .45 cal slug begins to strain the capacity of the little egg-shaped Lyman ladle; the RCBS ladle is better for anything 500 grains and up.

[hickfu]

Ive been casting 535gr boolits for years now and I wouldnt go without my bottom pour pot!

113847


Doc

[Southern Son]

I have not been able to get a decent boolit for my 45/70 (I have tried the Lyman Postell, the Matthews boolit by Lyman, and two custom moulds), from a bottom pour. All my pistol boolits are bottom pour, but not the big 500+grains. I have a use the RCBS ladle. Would like a Rowell, but the RCBS is good enough for me.

[Stephen Cohen]

That is a very nice line up you have Doc.

[bobthenailer]

I personaly have had no problems getting cast boolets to shoot accuratly enough in most senairos to rival J bullets using a bottom pour pot in any caliber including a 45 /70 using a Saeco #020 540 gr fp for a 2 1/2" 25 shot group @ 200 yards.

[Lead Fred]

No bottom pour here, dippin works fine for my molds

[oneMOA]

After looking at ladles, the Rowell with the bottom pour looks like the top of the line and at three times the price of an RCBS, I will need to ponder that. Is there a good youtube video showing ladle casting and the correct way to do it? A link to the video would be appreciated. Am I correct that once the mould has been filled by the ladle, then the ladle and remaining lead goes back into the pot, then the spru is cut and boolit dropped? It would seem the added hand movements would add such time to the rthym of the process, the mould would run cold, especially a single cavity mould.

[Wayne Smith]

With the RCBS/Lyman you can pressure pour and with the Rowell you can't. I have one mold, a Lyman 457122 Gould, that absolutely requires pressure pouring. I have another that works better that way. The rest I could use the Rowell, but don't. It gets heavy after about 10 minutes. I have an old Lee group buy 430gr six cavity. I use two dips of the Lyman to fill it. Not a problem.

[GhostHawk]

I have an old lyman dipper that works fine for me. I don't need to make a huge number at any given time. 40-50 rounds is an average batch for me, 100 would be a lot.

I pour, put ladle back in pot, grab stick/pliers to cut sprue, knock bullets out, switch back to ladle for next set.
With practice you can get pretty quick at it.

[OuchHot!]

In the first post you made a reference to "generally fast rhythm" to get the mold temp up. Some of us cast 4-500g boolits for rifles and some of us 100-250g boolits for pistol. The multi-cavity Al or brass molds have a relatively narrow temperature range and do tend to respond well to higher mold temps and faster tempo. The 500g single cavity mold is usually not so tough to heat and keep hot. I use a waage furnace and either a lyman (looks like a walnut) or rcbs bottom pour ladle (more square than the lyman and more cap.) for my bpcr. The rowell #1 is beautiful but heavy after an hour or two. If you go nuts on bpcr (a good thing, I think) you will be an expert on boolit quality. For multi-cavity pistol boolits, I use a bottom pour pro-melt or a lee 4-20 and fly like the wind. They are two different states of mind and I find different equipment is optimal.

[dondiego]

+1^ Two methods for different purposes.

[trixter]

I prefer the bottom pour, That is how I learned, and I think the production rate keeps me going.

[bangerjim]

I do both:

85% BP
15% lad

BP is much faster for small and large boolits. I cast slugs from 55gn to 300gn. A good ladle is a must.

There some 2 banger molds I use the ladle as it gives me slightly better drops.

But it is up to you! You can always dip out of your bottom pour!!!!!!!

Do BOTH! A CI quality ladle is not that expensive.


banger

[Motor]

Bottom pour right up to 50 cal.

[oneMOA]

After the useful replies to my post, I have decided to go with the RCBS Pro Melt furnace, and a ladle. My thinking is I can ladle from the BP or is it as a BP and drop directly into the mold. The Rcbs could be a dual purpose furnace allowing both methods. Since I shoot several pistol calibers, casting for those would be just a step away after the investment in the melt furnace. Did I mention I have about 150 lbs of pure lead to play with? I will most likely invest in a lube sizer in the future, but for now I will try to shoot "As Cast" and pan lubed boolits.

I have ordered a Lyman "Postell" mold #457132 as my first boolit to cast and will be using SPG lube. This is in a Browning BPCR with a 0.4585 bore in 45/70. A friend has let me "Test Drive" his Magma Star lube sizer and I am impressed so when it comes time to buy, the Magma will be the one I buy. A bit pricey but as good as it gets in my opinion. Did I mention I like good tools? I think I'm on the right track here with the good help from the folks on this forum. Not only from the ones who have replies to my post, but all the other threads as well.......I have been browsing for days and getting an education in the process. Great forum!

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Once upon a time there were no bottom pours; everyone used a ladle (sometimes a soup ladle) and cast pretty good bullets...some of which set some shooting records that stood for a long time. Suggest for those who are interested some reading in a book titled, "The art of Bullet Casting", available thru Wolfe Publishing. Attention to one particular lengthy article by Jim Carmichael on the pros and cons of ladle casting versus the use of a bottom pour pot. Like many other things in life there are advantages and disadvantages to either method. I do both types depending on what the mold likes. The object is to get the best cast bullets possible. Another gentleman who knew a few things about cast bullets, named Guy Loverin, once said, "watch the quality and not the clock". Stay flexible and keep track of/write down what you are doing....go with whatever works best for you with each particular mold. LLS

[quilbilly]

Bottom pour. Of course I have been casting large and small custom fishing jigs commercially for 35 years so am biased. Ladels are just too slow. If you have the furnace temp right and never let it go empty, bottom pour make sweet boolits fast. I will admit bottom pour furnaces actually wear out with as much use as I put them to. I replace them every two years when oxidation inside the spout causes them to develop a permanent drip. I later use the drippy ones to make ingots from dirty lead.

[upnorthwis]

Bottom Pour. I need moocho boolits for 3-Gun, SASS, CBA, BPCR, ASSRA, USPSA, and IHMSA. Make them so fast that I need to preheat ingots on top of pot to keep it full. Quality ones too.

[Whitespider]

I started casting with a bent and twisted soup ladle... later I found an old, rusty, open-top, 2-pound lead ladle at an antique store. Eventually I picked up a used (proper?) casting ladle with a spout for a couple bucks at a gun show. I dip from old cast iron cookware using an old electric kitchen stove for a heat source. I dip everything... from .22 caliber to .45 caliber. I have very few rejects and weight is extremely consistent (going on what most bottom-pour guys on this board say they get)... my 260-grain .45 caliber boolits vary less than ½ grain from average, most vary only .2 or .3 grains (in other words, only ½ grain from heaviest to lightest). It ain't about the equipment... it never has been.

OH‼ And once I get that rhythm goin'... I'm bettin' I can hold my own against any bottom pour.
*