Newbie question - keyholing

[pdgraham]

Hi guys.. newbie here.. my first post..

I started casting about a month ago and I've have some pretty good luck with everything except my 9mm castings.

A little history might be in order.

I bought a bunch of lee stuff from Bose.. they've seem to have the cheapest prices.

Here's what I got..

Lee 2-Cavity Bullet Mold TL356-124-2R (356 Diameter) 124 Grain Round Nose

Lee 6-Cavity Bullet Mold TL452-230-2R (452 Diameter) 230 Grain Round Nose

Lee 2-Cavity Bullet Mold TL452-230-2R (452 Diameter) 230 Grain Round Nose

Lee 6-Cavity Bullet Mold TL452-230-2R (452 Diameter) 230 Grain Round Nose

Lee 2-Cavity Bullet Mold TL358-158SWC (358 Diameter) 158 Grain Semi Wad Cutter

Along with a Production pot.. and of course alox lube.

I'm using Wheel Weights... at $24/100lbs

I'm tickled pink about the 358 and 452 molds, I get good accuracy (no keyholing), casts 80%+ good bullets and I don't seem to need to size them.

I've shot more than 800 rounds of the 452 and even got 17th out of 38 in an IDPA match with them.. These molds "Rock" :D

The 358 hasn't had as much of a workout, about 250 rounds in 38 special. No problems, good accuracy and no keyholeing.

The 356 dies.. well.. I'm really bummed about that. Both the 2 and 6 cavity seem to cast good bullets but they keyhole in all 3 of my 9mms, 1 Beretta and 2 glocks with Lone Wolf aftermarket barrels.

None of these guns have been fussy about what they ate in the past and they have been good with other MFGs lead bullets.. It's just this one that they hate.

I'd say it's a bad mold if it wasn't for the fact that I have two molds doing the same thing.

I can "fix" the problem by gas checking and sizing to "356".

The problem would "not" fix with just sizing to "356" alone without the gas checks.

Sizing to "357" doesn't work at all and there isn't enough bullet grabbing the sidewalls of the sizer to provide enough friction to set the gas check.

I've been all over the place with this, different powder charges, different powder.. the works...

The current 9mm load I'm using is 3.9 gr ww231, wsp and this lee 124 gr tumbler... about 950 fps..

[smilie=b: [smilie=b:

HELP!!!

Edited to add WW..

[Char-Gar]

Hummmm..Let me make a few observations and maybe thery will be helpful and maybe not.

1. The 9mm Luger is not the most cast bullet friendly round, but it can be brought to heel.

2. I see no use for a gas check bullets in the 9mm.

3. Most 9mms have a 1-10 twist and the heavier bullets above 120 grains seem to do best.

4. A sizing diameter of .357 or even .358 will most often be better than anything smaller.

5. Most 9mm handguns see to do best with cast in the 1 -1.1K fps range of speed.

6. Keyholing is caused by an unstable bullet, most often due to wrong length/weight for the twist, undersize for the barrel or too slow to stablize.

7. There is allot of variety in cast length with 9mm rounds and for best results cases the same length should be used.

8. My best result with cast in 9mm comes from medium powders like Unique or AA5.

9. As always, condom bullet metal fouling the the barrel can do a number on cast bullet accuracy and should be removed before shooting cast.

THEREFORE: I would suggest that you.

A. Get a new mold that is plain base, will cast large enough to size .357 and weight from 120 to 130 grains.

B. Cast from WW or harder alloy

C. Shoot at 1,000 to 1,100 fps with Unique or AA5

D. Clean the barrel of your pistols down to bear steel.

Do so and you can expect to shoot groups at least as small as those from mil-spec FMJ ammo.

[StarMetal]

Okay my opinion. Mic a slug on all your 9mm barrels. Your cast bullet should be sized at least .001 in over that, preferrably .002. I've had alot of 9mm's and have sized at both .356 and .357 and haven't seen a bit of difference in mine. In fact I have a hot 38-45 conversion for my 1911 Goldcup which was fabricated from a standard 9mm Colt barrel. I've shot one of the tightest groups I've ever shot with any handgun using a 124 Gr RCBS bullet over some Unique...and the bullet was sized .356. Alot of the 9mm bores you will find are very tight...yeah there are some fat ones. Generally a 9mm bore runs or should run tighter then a 38 or 357 mag. Most bullet manufactures make their jacketed 9mm bullet at the .355 diameter....you think there could possibly be a reason why? Yes...9mm bores should be tighter then 38 and 357 mag. Yes you will find some that aren't , but then again you will find inconsistancies in any caliber.

Another myth needs to be done away with. That is fast rifling twist. There's a group of shooters now that believe fast twist WILL shoot lighter bullets very well. I'm talking jacketed here not cast. My AR15 HBAR will shoot 50's as well as 69's and it has the 1 in 7 twist.

You won't find a heck of alot of 9mm moulds that cast larger then .357 because like I said earlier 9mm's don't have as large bore as 38 and 357 mag. This sizing to a certain diameter larger then the bore groove diameter is getting to be a pain in the butt. Yes, you bullet does need to be larger then the groove diameter to seal well for one thing and grab the rifling well for the other. Another thing too is I've shot from pure lead all the way up to straight linotype in various handguns without many problems. Yeah you can't push pure lead fast and yes it will lead the bore. WW's are fine for handgun target loads and more.

You have something really screwy going on with the bullet that mould is making. One thing I'm wondering is if the gascheck is being seated squarely on the base of the bullet. I can't see why, if the bullet fits the bore properly and the gaschecks is square, why it would keyhole. I've shot from encredibly light to very heavy bullets in the 9mm's that I have and have owned without a problem. Here's one that shoots good in alot of my 9's including a WWII P38 and that is a 150 gr RCBS cast SWC! Yup, shoots fine.

This leads me to believe something strange is going on with the bullet as it's cast from that mould. Is it possible you can post a picture of one of your cast bullets unsized and unlubed and one lubed and sized?

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

I largely agree with all the above, and add that harder metal (Taracorp or better) and softer lubes help with the 9mm and 40 S&W GREATLY.

Gotta get them boolits up to groove diameter AT MINIMUM, and throat diameter would be even better. My SIG-Sauers both run a .356" groove and a skinny .357" throat--so my boolits get sized at .357".

[pdgraham]

All good info guys.. thanks

I'll work on getting a picture.. gotta cast some more to do that.

This

A. Get a new mold that is plain base, will cast large enough to size .357 and weight from 120 to 130 grains.
Has me wishing I would have bit the bullet and purchased Lyman dies instead of trying to do this on the cheap... because I think that's going to be the only fix to this...

[pdgraham]

Ya know.. it just dawned on me..

If I'm having trouble with these 9mm Lee Molds.. I should just call Lee Precision and see what they have to say.. or get my money back.. and get a Lyman mold..

OR..

Maybe I can lap the mold out about .001... I just found these instructions on the Lee website


Remove the core pin assembly and sprue plate, and block off the sprue hole in the top of the mold. Lightly clamp the mold in a vise, base up. Suspend a 1/4" or 5/16" tap into the center of the mold, and fill with molten lead. When the lead solidifies, you should have a polishing mandrel that fits the inner diameter of the mold fairly closely. Don't worry if there are wrinkles, the mandrel doesn't have to be perfect. Coat the mandrel with valve lapping compound or Clover compound, or something similar, and using the embedded tap, give it a couple turns.

[Bodydoc447]

I guess I am missing something. The TL356-124-2R in my catalog is not a gas check design. Are using freechecks (sp?) on the plain based bullets or do I have the wrong diagram in my catalog?

Confused,

Doc

[44man]

The Lee does not take a gas check!
Three things to check for. Too small a diameter for the bore, too short a bearing length for the twist or too soft a boolit that is stripping the rifling. ( too fast for the bearing length and alloy.)

[pdgraham]

I guess I am missing something. The TL356-124-2R in my catalog is not a gas check design. Are using freechecks (sp?) on the plain based bullets or do I have the wrong diagram in my catalog?

Confused,

Doc

Actually it was a desperate move on my part.. true, it’s not made for a gas check but I wanted to see if it would stabilize with the additional length.. and it did…

I just got off the phone with a Lee tech.. nice guy… he said:

1.Try lapping it out .001 - .002
2.Quench them in water to make them harder.
3.Send both molds back in exchange for their 356 120-tc.. which he said they get the most positive feedback on.. of the 9mm molds..

So.. here goes…

:-( :-(

My biggest problem is that I've never let the fact that I don't know what I'm doing get in the way of me doing it...

[9.3X62AL]

It sounds like Lee is trying to do the right things for ya.

My favorite mold for the 9mm Para is the Lyman RN 121 grainer designed for the 38 caliber revolvers--#358242. It has a good bearing length and two lube grooves, and drops from the mold at a fat .358" in Taracorp alloy (92/6/2). Taracorp = 1/2 Lino = 1/2 unalloyed lead, among other recipes.

My apologies for neglecting in my first post to welcome you to our little asylum of pot-drossers!

[pdgraham]

Thanks for the welcome.. :)

I'm wishing I'd have bought Lyman dies..

Here's a pix of the offending bullet.. not sized... fresh out of the mold...

http://home.insightbb.com/~pdgraham/124.jpg

Wow.. this is kind of cool..

We can post pictures of our bullets the same way the guys on the Smith and Wesson forum post pictures of their Smiths.. :grin:

[felix]

You can detect keyholing in advance when rifling twist is at fault, or boolit shot too hard up front, or alloy too soft, etc. Take a look at the boolits from the berm. If the land marks are too wide, especially at the rear of the boolit, you know some skipping at least got started. If the land marks are too wide at the rear of the boolit, keyholing at the target should be shoutingly obvious. ... felix

[David R]

Wanna buy a nice RCBS 124 grain 2 cavity? I have 2 and NO 9mm. They shot great out of my beretta.


Prolly shouldabeenaPM

David

[Char-Gar]

The bullet pictured is not a gas check bullet, it is a bevel base design. If you are trying to use gas checks on that bullet, it might well be the key to your frustration.

[pdgraham]

The bullet pictured is not a gas check bullet, it is a bevel base design. If you are trying to use gas checks on that bullet, it might well be the key to your frustration.

It keyholes without the gas check... no keyhole with the gas check..

The gas check was just an expirment on my part.. :)

[pdgraham]

Wanna buy a nice RCBS 124 grain 2 cavity? I have 2 and NO 9mm. They shot great out of my beretta.


Prolly shouldabeenaPM

David

How much?

[David R]

Ygpm.

[Frank46]

My beretta 92fs with hard cast bullets shot horribly. Has to brush out leading about every ten rounds. Mikes the bullets came out at .355. Slugged bbl came out at .357.
Since I was going to shoot steel with this pistol decided to use remington bulk 125 .357 jword bullets instead. Gave the hard cast to a buddy who shoots em in his beretta clone taurus 9mm and he had no problems. I my case I would have a boolit that cast at least .359 and try either .358 or .359. These were not in any way factory load pressures when I used the hard cast. Frank

[MTWeatherman]

The Lee Tech Rep gave you good advice.

You likely have two problems with your 9mm...too soft an alloy and an undersize bullet.

I've had to quench my 9mms at a minimum...but get best results with an even harder bullet from oven treating. Also...the fattest bullets that will chamber and maximize the bearing surface. That 1 in 10 twist is tough on bullets. I believe your're better off with standard bullets rather than TL...bearing surface is lacking on some of the TL designs.

You should slug your barrel...but in lieu of that (if you lack a micrometer)... resize one of your 158gr .357 bullet bullets down to .357 and see if it fits easily in a fired 9mm case. I gather that you have a .357 sizer (most cases you would want at least a .358 bullet in a .38.) If you've got a .358 sizer...try the same with it. If it slides in the case relatively easily, there's a good bet that that's the minium size you should be shooting.

I use the non-TL version of the Lee 120TC in a 9mm...heat treated and sized .358. .356 bullets will keyhole in it everytime...it slugs at .357.

Don't be surprised if your new Lee 9mm mould (if that's the route you follow) drops a bullet less than .358. IMO Lee moulds tend to have more variation than others and tend toward undersize more often than not. My Lee dropped at .357 and I lapped it. Several of the lighter .38 bullets can be used in many 9mms and guarantee at least .358 if you need it.

[StarMetal]

My beretta 92fs with hard cast bullets shot horribly. Has to brush out leading about every ten rounds. Mikes the bullets came out at .355. Slugged bbl came out at .357.
Since I was going to shoot steel with this pistol decided to use remington bulk 125 .357 jword bullets instead. Gave the hard cast to a buddy who shoots em in his beretta clone taurus 9mm and he had no problems. I my case I would have a boolit that cast at least .359 and try either .358 or .359. These were not in any way factory load pressures when I used the hard cast. Frank

Me wonders if Beretta, who had problems with slides cracking when first introduced to our military, has gone and taken the safe road and bore their barrels out to the large size for 9mm of .357 in order to reduce pressure that might arise from all the various brands of 9mm that may be fired in it. Most J-word bullets are .355.

Joe

[pdgraham]

The Lee Tech Rep gave you good advice.

You likely have two problems with your 9mm...too soft an alloy and an undersize bullet.

I've had to quench my 9mms at a minimum...but get best results with an even harder bullet from oven treating. Also...the fattest bullets that will chamber and maximize the bearing surface. That 1 in 10 twist is tough on bullets. I believe your're better off with standard bullets rather than TL...bearing surface is lacking on some of the TL designs.

You should slug your barrel...but in lieu of that (if you lack a micrometer)... resize one of your 158gr .357 bullet bullets down to .357 and see if it fits easily in a fired 9mm case. I gather that you have a .357 sizer (most cases you would want at least a .358 bullet in a .38.) If you've got a .358 sizer...try the same with it. If it slides in the case relatively easily, there's a good bet that that's the minium size you should be shooting.

I use the non-TL version of the Lee 120TC in a 9mm...heat treated and sized .358. .356 bullets will keyhole in it everytime...it slugs at .357.

Don't be surprised if your new Lee 9mm mould (if that's the route you follow) drops a bullet less than .358. IMO Lee moulds tend to have more variation than others and tend toward undersize more often than not. My Lee dropped at .357 and I lapped it. Several of the lighter .38 bullets can be used in many 9mms and guarantee at least .358 if you need it.

Here's how slow I am at coming up to speed on this..

After reading this and a couple of other responses.. It dawned on me.. to fire up the Micrometer..

I have two 9mm 124 molds, a 2 cavity and 6 cavity. Only one of the cavities was .357... one was .356 and the rest were .354 or less... and 3 of them were "out of round...

Good grief.. :( I was lucky to hit the backstop..

I am so bummed about these molds.... [smilie=b:


I'm "Lapping" as we speak.. I hope "Flitz" works as a lapping coumpound... :o

[waksupi]

pdgraham, that is why we are here.