Mould Modification

[Cadillo]

I have a Lyman 429421 which drops bullets right at .429" as advertised, and is an easy and smooth casting mould. However, my new flat top .44 Special has throats that are just over .431", so I would like it to drop at .432" or just a bit over. I was checking on the Hollow Point Mould Service website, and see that they now enlarge only the rear drive bands rather than any or all.

Do any of you have any experience with moulds that produce bullets with drive bands that are larger in the rear than in the front? Just wondering how it might work out if I size bullets to either .431 or .432", and then shoot them with a .429" front drive band.

Any informed information appreciated.

[Tatume]

The Lyman mold for my Parker-Hale Volunteer rifle is like that, and it works very well; extremely accurate. Of course, what works well in a muzzle loading rifle isn't necessarily going to tell you much about a revolver, but it's a step.

Have you tried the 0.429" bullets in your revolver? They might shoot well as is.

Take care, Tom

[runfiverun]

i'd try a handfull too.
both of my 429241's make more in the 432 area with a ww and soft lead mixed alloy.

you must have a newer mold, 429 is not the molds diameter spec it is a part of the molds number.

[dubber123]

A very quick lapping would likely put you at .430+. I find the first bit comes off quickly, I assume from the microscopic machine marks the cavities must have. All my older 429421's cast much larger than .429", in case you come across one.

[Cadillo]

i'd try a handfull too.
both of my 429241's make more in the 432 area with a ww and soft lead mixed alloy.

you must have a newer mold, 429 is not the molds diameter spec it is a part of the molds number.

Handfull of what?

Actually .429 is what Lyman expects the mould to produce if using Lyman #2 alloy or similar. That's how they come up with the model number. And, just like I said the bullets drop at .429 as Lyman intended and advertised. Keyboards may lie, but micrometers don't. My bullets drop at .429 as per my mic and as stated.

[Cadillo]

A very quick lapping would likely put you at .430+. I find the first bit comes off quickly, I assume from the microscopic machine marks the cavities must have. All my older 429421's cast much larger than .429", in case you come across one.

Thanks for the input, but as I want my 4 cavity mould to be consistent from cavity to cavity, I prefer to have it machined, but as the only outfit that I know of who does it, now only machines the lower drive band to a new size, I was hoping that someone had some experience shooting bullets that had a rear band that is larger than the forward band as a current mod from the above mentioned company.

Maybe someone will know and chime in.

[Tatume]

Have you tried (a handful of) the 0.429" bullets in your revolver? They might shoot well as is.

[Cadillo]

Have you tried (a handful of) the 0.429" bullets in your revolver? They might shoot well as is.

No, and No they don't shoot as well as bullets that are fit to the throats. My throats are a consistent .431", and work best with properly sized bullets.

I'll just have to gamble on having the rear drive bands cut to yield a large enough bullet.

Please disregard my question.

[longbow]

Cadillo:

I have the same mould and it is not a new one. I have had mine for almost 30 years. It drops boolits at 0.429" using wheelweights. As Larry Gibson points out regularly, Lyman #2 alloy would likely cast a thou or two larger and that is what the moulds are spec'd to cast with.

However, in my case, I use a lot of range scrap and alloys not Lyman #2 so I like a mould to cast larger then if necessary boolits can be sized down. It doesn't work the other way.

You might try beagling and that could get you up to about 0.003" larger diameter. Otherwise you are probably better off to spring for an Accurate Mold of the same design in the diameter you want.

My suspicion is that just having the rear band enlarged will not work well. Just my opinion not having tried it.

Lapping is an option but lapping 0.003" out of an iron mould is work and it is difficult to keep cavities round and the same size. If it is a two cavity mould maybe not quite so bad. I have done it successfully but taking more than about 0.002" out I find to be work and hard to keep cavities round. Not impossible but difficult.

I think you would be better off to look at NOE as it seems to me thay had a "fat" version of the 429421 or just get Accurate to make what you want. Sell the Lyman and it will help pay for the right size mould for your gun.

Longbow

[mdi]

Have you tried casting with the mold and melt on the cooler side? I have cast with my molds at a bit over "good fill out" temperature and the melt mebbe 100 (or less) degrees over liquification (sp?). My bullets drop a bit larger that way. Also varying/experimenting with the alloy can give different diameters...

[Piedmont]

I have owned four of those molds. One dropped about .429 and had a front band of .425" until I had Mr. Ohlen open that band up (he used to do it), then sold it here on the board, with disclosure. Two dropped .4305 and one dropped .433. I kept two of the larger ones. The dimensions are with wheel weights. The notion that Lyman specs these for #2 and builds them to match is absolutely laughable to me.

If I were the original poster I would sell the mold and go see NOE or Accurate Molds for something that fits.

[OuchHot!]

I think that you need machine work to get the precision that you desire in all four cavities. If it were just a thou.... I would try a shade tree approach. Given that, I think an accurate mold is probably going to be cost effective. If you specify alloy and dimension, he will hit it.

[country gent]

Having been in the tool and die trade for over 30 years Lapping is a precission technique that when done corectly is more accurate than most mills and lathes. ( proper lapping can split ten thousandths by a skilled tradesman). You cant/dont just spin the bullet in the cavity with compound on it. The proper motin for lapping is like tapping about 1/4-1/2 turn forward and back a set number of times rotate 1/4 turn repeat until a full revolutionhas been made and clean and check. While the poster wants .003 on dia thats only .0015 on a side. To do the multiple cavities Make a run of bullets IDing them to which cavity they came from 1234 also make a drawing as to which cavites are 1234. With #1 lightly lap all 4 cavities starting at 1 and working it thru to 4. With a second #1 lap lightly from 4-1. then same thru the diffrent cavities bullets. This will keep all thecavities very close together in size and form. When doing this have the lead pot going and use casts to check the bullets. Lapping works but has to be done correctly or out of round off center cavities result. I understand why most only want to enlarge the lowest band as it saves special tooling and recatching every shoulder. The bottom band could be done with a decimil reamer but the others would require a boring head a special boring bar and feeding out on depth location to get each band. working blindly like that .0015 isnt much room.

[bones37]

I will have to agree with Longbow and Piedmont, if You can afford to buy an Accurate or NOE mold, sell Your current mold and go with either one of Your choosing. I say this because this is exactly what I have started doing recently since finding out a couple of months ago that Erik was not doing band enlargements any more. I had him enlarge one of my iron molds a few years ago, so I'm no stranger to his excellent work. Just this past Monday, I received a two cavity Iron mold from Accurate for my various 30/30's, and have several other two cavity iron molds from Tom, replacing various "other" molds that didn't "work" for me. I also have several other NOE molds.... gee, I think I'm an addict?!

[Cadillo]

I have owned four of those molds. One dropped about .429 and had a front band of .425" until I had Mr. Ohlen open that band up (he used to do it), then sold it here on the board, with disclosure. Two dropped .4305 and one dropped .433. I kept two of the larger ones. The dimensions are with wheel weights. The notion that Lyman specs these for #2 and builds them to match is absolutely laughable to me.

If I were the original poster I would sell the mold and go see NOE or Accurate Molds for something that fits.

Well, you are not the original poster and lack sufficient information to make such statements. He (I) have several .44 caliber revolvers which have various throat diameters, some of which gauge at .429 across the throats and do just fine with bullets that drop at .429". Others require .430" and yet others .431", and .432".

If I could get a Lyman that would drop bullets at .4315" to .432", it would work just fine for my smaller throated gun. And I will never sell the Lyman. The only fault I find with my Lymans' is that they drop bullets on the small side. The great thing about them is that they drop nice bullets very fast. I have several purportedly good quality brass moulds by Mihec, but use them only when nothing else will work, as they are a pain in the butt to operate, and while they produce some good quality bullets, they are very slow and create a LARGE number of cull bullets. I can produce four to five times as many nice and accurate bullets with a iron Lyman as I can with a brass Mihec. I will never buy another brass mould, and seriously doubt I would ever warm up to one of aluminum. For those who use and like brass and aluminum moulds, I'm quite happy for you.

Laugh about this Piedmont:

Lyman's Cast Bullet handbook
Page 53
Paragraph #12

"Lyman realized years ago that the diameter of the bullet which dropped from the mould varied with the composition of the bullet metal poured into the mould. Years have passed, and the basic law of metallurgy hold true today as it did then.

To eliminate the confusion-at least internally-Lyman settled on #2 Alloy as its standard bullet metal for centerfire projectiles; pure lead for the muzzleloading balls and shotgun slugs too.

It is so today . Standards for Lyman centerfire moulds are based on the use of #2 Alloy. Dimensions of the muzzleloadsing and shotgun slug designs are predicated upon the use of pure lead."

Paragraph #20

"Lyman plans the "as-cast" diameter of each caliber grouping to permit maximum utility within reasonable sizing ranges. We do not claim our moulds will cast to a single guaranteed diameter or that said cast bullets will be perfectly round. Instead, we state that we manufacture each of our moulds to a specified size in #2 Alloy with a manufacturing tolerance for both diameter variation and out of roundness."

There is a reason that they refer to it as "Lyman #2 Alloy"

The notion that someone like you would stick his finger in the chamber pot and stir until someone else wrinkles his nose is laughable to me, but it takes all kinds to make a world.

[Cadillo]

Have you tried casting with the mold and melt on the cooler side? I have cast with my molds at a bit over "good fill out" temperature and the melt mebbe 100 (or less) degrees over liquification (sp?). My bullets drop a bit larger that way. Also varying/experimenting with the alloy can give different diameters...

Excellent question and post, Thank You.

Yes, I too have learned that cooler melt and mould temps yield slightly larger bullets. As I have a large qty. of monotype, I'm able to use enough tin and antimony to cast at 625" F with my Lyman's, which yields good bullets that are slightly larger than those cast at higher temps.

My Lyman 452630 mould responds very well to using a melt rich in antimony and tin at this lower temp, and drop bullets at about .4535", which I then size to .453", which works very well in my Sigs leaving the barrels spotless. But, this particular 429421 mould just won't drop them any larger than about .4295". I will probably eventually purchase an Accurate iron mould spec'd to drop at .432" or so using # 2 Alloy as the base line for melt used.

Thanks for the well informed and intentioned reply!

[longbow]

I too love my Lyman moulds... those that cast to a size I can use anyway. I like the iron moulds and if I had to choose just one material I side with iron moulds.

I have a number of Lyman round ball moulds that cast perfectly and at least a couple thou oversize using range scrap. I also have a Lyman 31141 that casts at 0.311" so perfect for sizing for my .308. I was not so lucky with my 429421 or my 314299.

Before you give up, try Beagling and that may just let you carry on with that mould. If not I am sure an Accurate iron mould will fill the bill.

Longbow

[HangFireW8]

I find it interesting that Lyman sticks to a mold sizing strategy for an alloy that is no longer cheap, nor are the constituent metals readily available. Many here out in reality-land have long ago switched from #2 to WW+2% Tin, and then as WW gets harder to find, to 1/2WW + 1/2 Pb + Tin (and sometimes adding shot + some kind of hardening strategy when hardness is required).

So anyone who wants to can snub their noses at us folks who like their molds to be sized to match the alloys that we have, and can tell us how wonderful Lyman stuff is if we only bothered to use unnecessarily expensive and difficult to find alloys. Enjoy yourselves. I'll just keep voting with my wallet.

And oh yeah, my brass molds drop boolits like nobodies business, unless the melt gets too hot. If it does I just turn it down.

[triggerhappy243]

I am dealing with a similar issue. I think I will be lapping mine just a wee bit.

[Forrest r]

This may not be the best answer but it worked for me. I'm a huge 44spl fan & own several different molds for that caliber, Some are not produced anymore being older cramers, h&g's, ideals, discontinued lymans & raphines. I didn't want to alter them but I own 44's that use .430/.431/.432 boolits. I used to cast & size the boolits for the different firearms (the firearms that shot .430 boolits didn't like the .432's). I didn't use the boolits from the molds that cast undersized boolit in some of the firearms.

This is why I gave powder coating a try & it flat out works. Now I cast/coat & size everything to .430 and use any/all the coated boolit in every 44 that I own. The powder coating will easily add 2/1000th's to any boolit. I used to use the oversized pc'd boolits in the firearms that required the larger boolits & then I tried sizing them to .430 and they worked fine.

There's no leading with pc'd boolits, no special alloys to use (just cast good boolits & coat), I use plain old range scrap. The heating process that bakes the pc coating also softens/anneals the lead alloy of the bullet making them soft (able to seal the chambers/bores easier) and the pc doesn't allow any leading.

Accuracy:
Allot of people shoot/test their 44's @ long ranges/distances. I tend to start @ 25yds, if the load won't hold a 1" group @ 25yds I don't take it out any further. It's not hard to get 1" @ 25yd loads with these soft pc'd bullets, got so many I quit saving/recording them. Some 1" or less @25yd targets:

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/629accuracytargets_zps87d7149e.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/629accuracytargets_zps87d7149e.jpg.html)

Plinking loads & play with a contender (normally uses .431 or larger boolits) and .430 pc's Mihec "keith clones".

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/44contender_zpsf270843a.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/44contender_zpsf270843a.jpg.html)

More plinking loads, a cramer 200g wc from a 629

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/200gwcs_zps072309fe.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/200gwcs_zps072309fe.jpg.html)

Testing to see if there was any difference in adding a gc vs no gc with the lyman 429303

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/429303_zpsdc534574.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/429303_zpsdc534574.jpg.html)

I used to either tumble lube, use lee push thru sizers or use a lyman 450, now I pc & use the lee push thru's.

Just something to think about.

[Cadillo]

This Powder Coating seems quite interesting for several reasons. Where might one find some detailed information regarding what's needed and how it's done?

[Cadillo]

I find it interesting that Lyman sticks to a mold sizing strategy for an alloy that is no longer cheap, nor are the constituent metals readily available. Many here out in reality-land have long ago switched from #2 to WW+2% Tin, and then as WW gets harder to find, to 1/2WW + 1/2 Pb + Tin (and sometimes adding shot + some kind of hardening strategy when hardness is required).

So anyone who wants to can snub their noses at us folks who like their molds to be sized to match the alloys that we have, and can tell us how wonderful Lyman stuff is if we only bothered to use unnecessarily expensive and difficult to find alloys. Enjoy yourselves. I'll just keep voting with my wallet.

And oh yeah, my brass molds drop boolits like nobodies business, unless the melt gets too hot. If it does I just turn it down.

Just to be clear, I have never cast a single bullet with Lyman #2 Alloy. But, you don't have to be a mathematical genius to use materials on hand to form alloys that will emulate, and for some purposes exceed it's properties for some specific uses. Some of my Lymans cast good bullets with just about anything that I feed them, and others will work best only with specific home brewed concoctions, because I do not buy ready made alloys. Didn't mean to confuse you.

If you are buying the tin you cited above at today's prices, you are not voting with your wallet, and the reality-land that you claim to inhabit might thus seem to be some altered state of awareness.

[Forrest r]

This Powder Coating seems quite interesting for several reasons. Where might one find some detailed information regarding what's needed and how it's done?


I read/studied posts for a long time on this website following what people tried/tested. Some very talented people came up with an extremely easy way to pc bullets with excellent results. For less than $100 (actually $78) I was up and running and have pc's well over #300 of boolits for the 9mm/38spl's/357's/44spl's/44mag's & 45acp's. It even does excellent with plinkers for the 30cal's.

Pc'ing boolits truly is worth looking at. Doesn't matter if the boolits are undersized, oversized, plain based, bb based, hollow based or pointed, grease or tumble grooved. Pc'ing is a game changer, no leading, no smoke from traditional lubes, the ability to bump boolits up in dia without any mold mods, don't need any gc's with pc and the boolits size easier (pc is a lube).

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?184-Coatings-and-Alternatives