44 Magnum in a Henry Big Boy - Brass splitting (?)

[DoctorBill]

About a month ago I bought a used Henry Big Boy in 44 Magnum.
Almost NIB except for a few rounds thru it. BB22942.
An old gentleman bought it in 2007 on layaway and never shot it.
Says made in Brooklyn, NY.

I then obtained the means to load my own cartridges (LEE Dies, mold, and Magtech Brass).

Loaded up 30 rds with 18 grains 2400, 240 grain LEE Cast swc bullet, with
CCI large Magnum Pistol Primers in Magtech Brass. Factory Crimped with LEE Die.
(18 grns of 2400 is the Minimum Load for 2400)

I fired off 19 of them in the Henry (stopped because the extractor came out !).

Besides the problem with the Henry Rifle, I had 4 of the 19 bullets do this - below.
Three have split lines and one actually came apart in the rifle - had to pull it out.

http://s19.postimg.org/jmnlkyzs3/Split_Magtech_Brass.jpg

Here are some of the others plus six Aluminum CCI 44 Magnums that showed no sign
of splitting - no score lines at least - so I don't think it is the rifle's fault.

http://s19.postimg.org/rtflcjpur/Some_Fired_Brass.jpg

NONE of the other 15 fired Magtech Brass cases show ANY lines or indications
of a split in them.

A friend said maybe the cases were too long, but all were in the 1.262 to 1.268"
range (1.285" accepted in Reloading Manuals).

Has anyone got any ideas as to why this happened ?

My immediate thought was that this Magtech Brass Lot (2 bags of 100 same lot)
is faulty....so I E-Mailed them. No response as of now.

DoctorBill

Edited in 8-13-14:
Henry Repeating Arms just E-Mailed me and are sending me an Extractor Part
(BB-19) in the mail ! They say the warranty is still in place !

They also told me that it was made 3-7-2007.

BTW - The rifle shoots SOOOO accurately ! I love it.

Edited in May 9 2016 - see this link (update!)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?306588-Split-44-Magnum-Case-Removal-Henry-Big-Boy&

[longbow]

My suspicion would be excess head space. Looks to me like the brass pulled apart where it thins.

Just my opinion, never had it happen. I am sure someone with first hand experience will chime in though.

Longbow

[bruce381]

magtech brass not real good quality? try other brands

[Bullshop]

A chamber wet with oil or some kind of lube can cause case separation like that. It will not however cause the case length cracks.

[rp85]

as suggested try different brass and suggest use standard pistol primers. had issues with my 1894 marlin in 44 magnum when I used magnum primers with 2400. could not cycle the lever if I used magnum primers, with standard primers a non issue.

using 20 grains 2400 stand pistol primer, with a hornady 240 grain xtp/hp. use this load also with 225 & 240 grain gas checked cast bullets. brass is usually win or fed.

rp

[44man]

Brass for sure. Want to see junk? Friend bought A-Merk loads. Can't even size them without cracking. I have Rem .44 brass i still use, fired over 42 times. Fed, Starline, Midway, WW, same.

[44man]

Check head space. Two layers of masking tape on the head of a case should just chamber, three is too much.
I don't like Henry rifles. Darn things should all be STEEL! What is with that tiny bolt?

[243winxb]

Some of your loads had more then the 18 grs. Check scale for accuracy.

[DoctorBill]

243winxb -"Some of your loads had more then the 18 grs. Check scale for accuracy."

With all due respect, I seriously doubt that.

I am very careful and do one cartridge at a time - start to finish.
I may be slow, but I enjoy reloading and don't try to 'speed it up'.
One caveat - the 2400 was/is an old can - maybe 15 years old.

The Max load in the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual is 22 gr of 2400 - I loaded 18 gr.
using a LEE scale and a trickler of my own design - a 3 ml plastic eye dropper
rolled and tapped....quite controllable and convenient (and costs nothing).

The accuracy may not be spot on, but the reproducibility IS spot on.

I wonder if annealing these Magtech Brass is called for ?

I am loath to blame the Magtech Brass. Having an 1876 .577-450 Martini-Henry,
I reformed Magtech's 24 gauge Shotgun Hulls into .577-450 MH Brass with no sign
of the Brass being of poor quality. No splits or cracks.
Also, being the owner of a .577 Snider - I reformed more Magtech 24 gauge hulls
into Snider Brass.....again no problems or bad brass.

DoctorBill

[Cherokee]

I've never had any problem with Magtech 45 Colt brass - I suspect the rifle has a problem.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Almost has to be one or the other, doesn't it--brass or rifle's chamber. I've seen defective chambers cause a split like that due to a score in the chamber's wall, but if it's there all fired brass will bear the line. So you can pretty well rule that out. Headspace is kind of the same deal--it is what it is, and all things being equal it will cause separation on all fired cases or at least incipient head case separation. I think you can pretty well rule out bad headspace also. That leaves the brass. I have used .45 L.C. and .44 WCF MagTech brass with good results, although if it wasn't for the present Great Components Famine it wouldn't be my first choice. I'm voting for uneven annealing of the brass by the factory. The bad ones will fail and the good ones will continue to be good, unless you re-anneal the entire batch. I won't go into how to do that unless you need the information.

[DoctorBill]

Der Gebirgsjage (was ist das ?) - you remind me of Sherlock Holmes when the "Game's Afoot !"

I thought it might be the rifle, myself.....then fairly quickly afterward thought...all the rounds would
have the same crack-line in them if the chamber had a 'defect'.

Then I thought, then it must be the Brass...but why are only some of them cracked ?

Then came - maybe I myself loaded them badly....but I do not remember having any one of them
act any differently.

Having had older .303 British Brass be very difficult (almost impossible) to go thru the first die
(resizer/decapper), I learned later about the miracle of annealing.
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/reply/209212/t/Re-Cannot-resize-303-British-Brass.html#.U-64yPcU2kw

Never had any problems with new brass, but having seen brass that has hardened just by
aging (setting around), I thought about this Magtech Brass maybe needing annealing.

I reformed New Magtach 24 ga Brass Hulls into .577-450 Martini-Henry Cartridges in the
LEE .577-450 Die. It is difficult to do and takes quite a lot of patience AND repeated annealing.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?40924-450-577-Martini-Henry

You anneal....then slowly reform the neck slightly....then reanneal....continue reforming....reanneal...
etc...etc...etc.
Sometimes I would reanneal and stop for a break.

If I came back the next day, the reannealed Brass was hard again w/o any reforming.

So I learned from experience that Brass will harden just by time passing.

These bags of Magtech brass would possibly have cases of mixed age possibly by being
dumped into a large holding container before being counted and bagged.

Long story short.....I will anneal each and every one before loading them.

My Henry is awaiting them sending me an extractor part before I can shoot it again.
If I can't fix it, I'll have to send the Bolt to Henry for them to fix it.

SO - it may take a while for me to report back whether annealing solves this problem...
or not.

If annealing solves this mystery, then I will anneal all my brass before reloading.
Given the way Brass Alloy acts, I think it is a good idea anyway.
Annealing is not hard to do in any case. Just don't over heat the Brass !

Annealing is amazing in how the Brass changes from harder than hell to nice and soft.
(For a while).

DoctorBill

[MtGun44]

Do not anneal the case heads, they need to be full strength to withstand
firing pressures.

I do not believe that brass hardens without reforming in anything like a normal time
scale - maybe in a four or five decades.

Any chance that there is anything with ammonia in it involved with your brass? This
WILL embrittle brass and cause failures.

Bill

[DoctorBill]

No Ammonia around....unless I am making myself !
Ammonia smells good compared to what I make myself.

I keep my Brass several rooms away from the Cat Litter Box !

I, personally, have had freshly annealed Brass noticeably harden overnight
when I was making the Martini-Henry cartridges by reforming the Magtech
24 ga hulls. Just sitting there overnight.

Have a look at some web sites on "Age Hardening"

http://www.metalbulletin.com/Glossary.html#axzz3AWlUvpp0



"Age hardening - A process of allowing certain alloys, notably of aluminium (sic)
and some steels, that exhibit this characteristic to return to a hardened state
after annealing by leaving them for a few hours or days at room temperature.
See also Maraging and Air Hardening."

I remember now - one company that sells Cartridge Brass TELLS you you should
probably anneal their new brass right out of the box. Maybe it was Prvi Partizan.....

People can poo poo what I am saying, but I have seen it with Brass.
Brass hardens w/o working it - over time (days).

Someone can try to quantitate that, but that would entail some major
scientific instrumentation.

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

I'll leave it there.

Of course one does not heat the base.
That is why many people heat the Brass with a torch while it is setting in
water, then knock it over.

DoctorBill

[leadman]

The headspace on the 44 mag is just the clearance from the bolt face to the recess in the end of the barrel. The rim fills most of this space. If the headspace was too great the primers may protrude out of the case and the base of the case in front of the rim might expand. Normally several thousands over max headspace has no effect on the brass.
Was the chamber cleaned and dried before you starting firing? Oil in the chamber can cause the brass to split at the base of the boolit. The boolit will start moving when the gun is fired and the case is not gripping the chamber wall so the case splits at the base of the boolit. The end of the chamber may pull the brass off the boolit so the piece stays in the chamber.
Could the extractor have caused the scratch down the side of the case?
Alliant recommends a standard force primer as stated with 2400.

[texaswoodworker]

Hmm, that ain't right. Seems your 44 mag brass is turning into 44 Russian brass. :p

Hows the inside of your chamber look? Any unusual marks? Have you heard anything back from Magtech yet? My money is on you getting a lot of bad brass. I'm not sure if I'd try to anneal it or not. It's a little too close to the case head for my comfort. Try using Starline brass. You won't be sorry. ;)

[Southern Son]

I have a Marlin 94 in 44 mag that was doing the same thing. Turns out that it was the locking lug for the bolt, it was too thin, which meant that the rifle had a head space issue. Have you had any trouble with light strikes on the primer? When my rifle got a new locking lug, light strikes and head separations went away.

[Airman Basic]

+1 for headspace issues. I've got 44 brass I've been loading for over 30 years. Only time I've encountered your problem is when I loaded the same brass too many times with full loads. Settled on 10 full power reloads, after that, goes in the plinker pile. Maybe a combo of headspace and brass issues? Nothing is ever simple.

[DoctorBill]

I got the Henry Big Boy 44 Magnum 'extractor' in the mail today from
Henry Repeating Arms. Took 3 days after they acknowledged my email.

They had told me it was still under warranty - me being the 3rd owner !

Long story short - I reassembled the rifle and it works well now.
Do not know HOW that extractor came out and got lost at the range !

So.....I will try annealing the Magtech Brass and load up some more
rounds with 18 grs of 2400 using non-magnum primers and see if the
Brass splits anymore. I will also check the Head Space thing out...

Just have to get to the range when I can - wife has Non-Hodgkin's
Lymphoma-B and is undergoing Chemo, so our life is a bit scary
and surreal.

Shooting a rifle just doesn't seem all that important right now.

DoctorBill

[srd]

I am sorry to hear about your perils with the wife. Give us an update when you can about both.

[44man]

Good to hear Henry is a good company but sad about your wife. We are behind you and prayers sent.