So if you wanted to slug hunt with a 20 gauge......that is too tight for slugs...

[IndySteve]

Ok, In the past, my off the wall ideas and thoughts haven't met TOO MUCH criticism so THANKS IN ADVANCE? :razz:

I bought this old 1950 Stevens side by side to fill a yen for an old time shotgun to turn into my "meat gun" for bunnys and birds but thoughts of taking it into the deer woods intrigues me as well and while I KNOW it isn't capable of long range groups one should shoot at deer, there still EXISTS a range at which it would work. AKA.......a "more hunting and less shooting" kind of deer season where, like a recurve bow, getting into range is most the fun.

Anyway, disbelieving the measurements I am going to give you on the chokes is acceptable. Had I not measured myself and had others do the same, I would have a rough time believing it myself if I just read it in someone else's post but........the "modified and full" 20 gauge has measurements of .590 and .584" respectively.

With the "modified" barrel shooting 92+ percent and the "full" not even covering the 30 inch circle at 40 yards, let's just agree they are choked TIGHT and TOO TIGHT in choke designations. :-o

Checking all the factory slugs and even sending an email off to Brenneke who advertises their slugs can be shot in "all chokes" I received the same answer. "1. They cant be that tight and 2. If they are.....do NOT shoot our slugs though them!!"

So to you lead casting brothers I ask this, WHAT method would you recommend to try shooting 58 cal balls (or maybe the Ball-et??) out of such for a CLOSE range deer plugger?

Measuring .570 I don't think the ball has room for use of a shot cup but I haven't measured shot cups petals yet for width but tossing this out there in case someone else has tried such??

20 gauge "slugs" for loading are just too dang big in circumference.....for this shotgun.

Yes there are better options. Yes another gun should probably be a better choice.......but this is what I want to do so.....
HELP is appreciated.

God Bless

oh yeah.........a photo is always nice.

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj170/Steve692/Side%20by%20Side%2020%20gauge/0804141342_zps3d24e8fb.jpg (http://s272.photobucket.com/user/Steve692/media/Side%20by%20Side%2020%20gauge/0804141342_zps3d24e8fb.jpg.html)

Yep. Speader loads are going to be mandatory for small game but look the heck out DUCKS shooting Bismuth (I am NOT paying 3 dollars AND UP per trigger pull for the others, LOL)

[singleshot]

How long are the barrels? Maybe you could "modify" them to eliminate the chokes then have-at-it.

[IndySteve]

It is a thought, but I really don't wish to alter the shotgun. Barrels are 28 inches. Deer hunting with it is just an "also ran" thought, and the option of loading spreader loads will fit the bill for most of its use and I am a bit curious about duck hunting with it as is. Thanks!

[Mk42gunner]

Is that a single trigger Stevens, or are my eyes playing tricks on me? Reason I ask is I have never seen a Stevens with a single trigger, IIRC.

I can believe the barrels are choked that tight, I am just surprised you aren't getting blown patterns. That gun was made in the day of bare shot and felt wads, plastic shotcups made a lot of shotgun chokes into tight and too tight.

What about using a Mini ball meant for one of the .577 or .58 cal rfled muskets? I think I have seen threads like that in the casting for shotguns section.

Good luck and let us know how it regulates.

Robert

[IndySteve]

Ooooooooo yeah. That might work. Anyone have one of those 58 cal Ball-ets? Since lubed I wondered what they measured? Also wondered if "hollow based" was so enough to make if fly have way stable with zero rifling. Well not STABLE but not tumbling LOL.

Yesserie. Single trigger model 530A (1936-1954) actually then a Model 530ST which is just the 530A with a (ST) single trigger. Werent tons made, and least of all in 20 gauge. I bought this one even though it was made for "Western Field" (Wards). Its one of the few Wards didn't do anything to the model name or number but throw a "SB" in front. Most the 530A you see are all double trigger (which I have no problem with) but thought this one was a rarity so bought it....and found out it's a FREAK with these patterns.

She's a neat ol girl and only weighs just 6 1/2 lbs on my cheapie scale but taking it to a better scale this weekend.

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj170/Steve692/Side%20by%20Side%2020%20gauge/0802141622_zps2f3aa69e.jpg (http://s272.photobucket.com/user/Steve692/media/Side%20by%20Side%2020%20gauge/0802141622_zps2f3aa69e.jpg.html)


I need to pattern whatever Ill shoot of course in shot loads but with 9 and 7 1/2s, that I have on hand, they aren't blown at all but when you shoot 513 pellets with all inside the 30 inch circle but the 40 landing outside of it........there isn't much ROOM for "holes" lol.

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj170/Steve692/Side%20by%20Side%2020%20gauge/ModBarrel9Shot40yds_zps42cb05e4.jpg (http://s272.photobucket.com/user/Steve692/media/Side%20by%20Side%2020%20gauge/ModBarrel9Shot40yds_zps42cb05e4.jpg.html)

What a load of No 5 Bismuth looks like will be the kicker.

Probably I'll have to stick with round ball but, heck, might as well try two or three others for kicks....if I can find a source for only 3-4 trial ones.

God Bless

[kenyerian]

Nice Gun. Way back in the 60's I had a 503A in 16 gauge that patterned full and extra full. I killed my first deer with it using Brenneke Slugs. It shot them very well. http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Slugs/departments/198/ Here is a link to some various slug round ball combinations. I would try some Brenneke's in it. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/885465/brenneke-usa-ko-ammunition-20-gauge-2-3-4-3-4-oz-rifled-slug-box-of-5?cm_vc=ProductFinding. The ribs on the slug, contrary to popular opinion, are not designed to act like rifling in a rifle barrel, but compress to allow the slug to easily pass through a choked shotgun barrel. Good luck!!

[IndySteve]

Yes. Brenneke slugs were my choice for that very reason but as said, I got an email from them that they would not suggest shooting such through the full side and "maybe" it would be ok through the "mod" side. IN TIME, I would love to find a 26 inch barreled 530ST in a 16ga!!! LOVE the ol 16 and that was the only thing about this one slightly disappointing but you would not believe me if I told you how long it took to find this one. There is a nice double trigger 12 gauge 530A on GB right now.......and if I had the funds.....yep!

But supposedly the 26 inch versions were IC / Mod so might not be QUITE so tight. A 16 I wouldn't mind having opened up to real time IC and Mod if the gun was cherry.

Some day.
God Bless

[kenyerian]

I guess I Didn't read the whole post about contacting Brenneke, Sorry. Here is a wad with a very short shot cup that might work with a round ball. http://www.ballisticproducts.com/20ga-Brush-Wad-250_bag/productinfo/072BW20/

[IndySteve]

Yes, thanks, I had planned on ordering those anyway to try as the simplest version of a spreader (their term "brush") load but a specialized spreader will probably open them up more. Heck, look at the shot I'll save. I might shoot 3/4 oz loads for bunnies AND spreader wads so I don't dissect said rabbit if I get lucky and center one. :-(

Really appreciate the help. Thoughts on the Minnie ball with NO rifling? or stick with round ball?

God Bless

[Digital Dan]

Thoughts: Don't bother. Odds are fairly small your barrels will regulate in any fashion if you start loading balls. Muskets are hardly more effective with patched balls than a shotgun in any case. Could be though that the gun will shoot #3 buck like an ace though. Folks routinely ignore the lethality of buckshot and overestimate the utility of slugs. What you have there is a SHOTgun...treat it like one.

[Blammer]

00 buck may be your freind for deer hunting, if allowed.

[IndySteve]

Sorry, not an option in good ol Indiana. Never has been, at least not since there was a season set in the early 50s. Slugs, handguns and our now infamous "Hoosier Legal Rifle Rounds" lol ..........No buckshot. Don't ask me why, I just have to play by the rules. :-(

I appreciate the feedback, regardless.

Anyone have a link or something showing when plastic wads came to be?

I knew this was made prior to that time but I'm not finding diddly online about when such became common.

God Bless

[Hamish]

Please dont do that to a fine old sxs. You risk destroying one or both barrels pushing projectiles through those chokes. A far more accurate proposition would be anH&R Ultra Slug Hunter in 20ga. that will hit whatever you point it at inside of 225 yards with the right slug. Either that or investigate the cartridges that can be used with the 1.8" cartridge case length guidelines in a rifle.

You're in for some disturbing revelations as to effective hunting distance with a smooth bore double if you don't hit the lottery with barrel regulation.

[IndySteve]

Under sized slugs could harm the barrels?????? First I've ever hear that. Any info is appreciated but slugs have been shot out of ALL kinds of shot barrels for longer than Ive been alive. I've never heard of damage from such unless slug was larger than the choke. I DO appreciate the info but explain please?

God Bless

I probably should add I have at my disposal the 350JR round in a rifle I had built should I wish to shoot deer long range. This isn't intended as something "Better".....just fun. :bigsmyl2:
The buck I shot last year was less than 15 yards. If it can hit a dinner plate regularly at 25 yards, I can whack something. Limiting myself to SHORT range is not a bad thing to me. Adds some sport to it. 99 brown and down, the majority shot with a longbow and home made wood arrows. I'm ok with really short range.

IMHO......my 100th deer should be something fun, something different and this is what I chose to do it with, if at all possible. Nothing else. Just a personal quest.

[IndySteve]

If you ever hear of some loony toon hunting deer with a double barrel sabot shotgun in Indiana, giggling his rear off it would be me......if I win the lotto that is. LOL

With the memories of turn of the century African safari's bouncing in my head I think one of these would be a RIOT.

http://www.csmcspecials.com/product_p/professional.htm

[Hamish]

See, now you've put a whole different face on it. You're a serious hunter who is looking to do a short range kill in a different way than usual. I can respect that, I bow/pistol hunt at in your face distances on purpose myself. (Last kill-3 feet)

And it sounds like you understand the need for "rattle factor" under size RB's for the pressure factor. (I have seen the effects of oversize slugs on thin tightly choked barrels, neophytes with grandads single or double and high pressure slugs seem to show up a couple days before season at the range every year or two and sometimes it's not pretty. Taking a nice older gun and bulging the barrel(s) make me nauseous.)

Good luck and carry on!

[Hamish]

BTW, the 350JR? A belted midget? LIB! Definite thumbs up,,,,,

http://www.shootersforum.com/wildcat-cartridges/80073-one-more-indiana-legal-358-bore-round-like-we-needed-one-lol.html

[IndySteve]

OH...........ruining this fine old scattergun would make me more than nauseous!!

I HAD originally thought of shooting steel shot in it for waterfowl......till I measured the chokes. NOOOOOO way.

I very much appreciate you stepping up to make sure I understood any dangers of slugs being shot in this but whew..... YOU HAD ME WORRIED. ( "What am I Missing!?!" lol)

Yet another reason I posted this question HERE in CB forums. I wasn't going to post it where the "egg-spurts" rule the roost ..insultingly. LOL Your head's up to make sure I was on board was graciously accepted and appreciated.

God Bless

[IndySteve]

THE BELTED MIDGET............ROFLMAO!! I LOVE IT. Yep, the "midget" is alive and well, whacking and stacking them.
My "15 seconds of fame".......that few noticed LOL!

God Bless

[Hamish]

Seriously good read, nice load work up. Still with 8208? There are a couple of fellows I am going to pass the link to "Shooters" on to that will get a kick out of it.

You might want to PM VdoMemorie for help,,,,a regular shotgun projectile maniac,,,,,

[MaryB]

How about casting your own and having a custom push through sizer made to trim them down... or a custom slightly undersized mold?

[longbow]

Under the circumstances and since you do not want to remove chokes my vote would go to round balls in donut wads or brush wads. A 0.575" round ball would clear both chokes easily.

As mentioned, regulation may be an issue but I am betting not as much as with bore size slugs or balls. Just my opinion because I have not shot round balls in a double. I have however shot thousands of round balls from smoothbore single barrel shotguns mostly with good success.

Round balls can be quite accurate to at least 50 yards or somewhat beyond but they do tend to pick up random spins and veer off course somewhere between 50 and 100 yards. I have shot some rather nice 100 yard groups with round balls but usually at least 1 or 2 out of 5 will be fliers and sometimes all will be "fliers". My good loads consistently give 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards. Dependability past 60 yards or so gets a bit iffy for my liking though.

With your double you have some things working against you:

- chokes of different constriction
- bead front sight and no rear sight
- two barrels which may or may not be in line for point of impact (most likely not)
- regulation between the two barrels which may require significant load work up

You may get a load worked up for one barrel that shoots just fine but will not group in the other barrel. No reason you cannot just use one barrel though is there?

You should easily be able to match BP muzzleloader velocities using 0.575" round balls in a shotgun so if you keep ranges under 50 yards you should do okay. A lot of smoothbore musket shooters using only a front sight get hunting level accuracy to well past 50 yards.

I would be looking at wads like these:

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/20ga-Brush-Wad-250_bag/productinfo/072BW20/

or donut wads which I do not see listed anymore but they are a felt or nitro card wad with a hole in the middle. You can make them yourself. The hole keeps the ball centered in the bore so you make a wad column of plastic gas seal and card wads then put a donut wad on top seat the ball and crimp. The ball sits in the hole and rides up the center of the bore.

Shooting a loose ball (no donut wad or brush wad) gives extremely poor accuracy. I speak from experience here in that I started my slug shooting career using 0.690" round balls in a 12 ga. Accuracy was extremely poor even to 25 yards. Center that ball up and accuracy can be quite good. I normally load round balls into shotcups but shot in cylinder bore. You will not be able to do that with your chokes.

I will say don't bother with a Minie. First they will be undersize and with chokes you cannot make them fit. Second they will tumble. There is not enough hollow base to provide the shuttlecock drag effect you need.

A Lyman 20 ga. Foster slug cast in pure lead should easily swage through the chokes but I suspect accuracy would be poor and they do not have a reputation for penetration ~ tend to flatten out into a big lead washer. You can buy a Lyman Foster mould though and try it.

Round ball is your best bet, in my opinion, at whatever range you can get hunting accuracy consistently.

My opinion anyway.

Longbow

[grampa243]

i have loaded a .575 round ball in a cb1075-20 wad with a 1/2'' fiber cushion 28ga. wad. over 15.6 grains of unique in a Winchester hull.

we shot this load out of a full choke NEF and a mossberg 500 rifled and smooth(mod) bore.. shot great in all..

[IndySteve]

Seriously good read, nice load work up. Still with 8208? There are a couple of fellows I am going to pass the link to "Shooters" on to that will get a kick out of it.

You might want to PM VdoMemorie for help,,,,a regular shotgun projectile maniac,,,,,

Yes. Not a lot of continued work up on loads. The 8208 just did what I wanted and expected but.....when funds allow I am building an "improved" ( a tiny bit more for looks than performance) "midget" (cracking me up here) with a shorter neck.

"Gain" in capacity might only be about a grain but it will be a grain more than the completely packed case I can use with the 180 grain flat nose speer now without pressure signs and running 2700 plus fps out of a 20 inch barrel. With the 220 grainer you can hit max loads without a full case but maybe another grain will open up a "nicer" slower burn rate powder for it but like I said, the neck just looks too long to me for over all balance AND.....with the chosen Speer bullets that are whitetail HAMMERS, I am not USING the entire neck length as a neck with powder up in it on the 180 grainer Speer.

TO ME.....necks are for bullets, below the neck is for powders.....and since building a round MY way, that is the way it will end up so the length of neck it now has with powder in it, would be better utilized blown out to case and not neck diameter. (Yes, I am anal about something I Build" ) :holysheep

Doesn't matter to most but matters to me. A. It is not what I ordered to begin with and B. a little more capacity wont kill the round even if it doesn't improve anything other THAN looks.

For kicks, the next will be altered a bit and in a 22 inch barrel. Unsure what action yet but probably a Remington. Old habits die hard.

God Bless

[IndySteve]

As per the shotgun ball, I appreciate all the effort put into replies while I slept. Dang sleep anyway. Gets in my way of doing things .:razz:

Pretty much what I assumed so I am glad most agree on the .575 or something custom cast but while mostly for a casting membership I have not done so and to be honest, probably wont. I have many varied interests as is and not enough time to do them all now.

I AM aware of the slug needing to be under sized relative to the chokes but is it universally agreed that .575 would be the optimum SAFE choice? .580 would be pushing pressures in the tighter barrel of the two measuring .584? THIS is where my experiences run short and another reason I came here to CB. I'm not finding info online on what is considered a safe margin but IMO???? closer to bore (choke) diameter kinda, maybe, might be some consideration .......or is such more of a "ball park" estimate the gang goes by? Please excuse my ignorance in this area.

Good Stuff on the round ball and wad options~~!

Ill give them a try. I've never quite understood the "need" for the barrels to group together. Not for short range. If they print groups good enough for deer hunting at x yards, one has to imagine that individually the barrels will shoot a better group. Where each groups it AT is something for the hunter to remember. Even a foot off, its not a hard thing to allow for at 30 yards. Factory double beads will be a bit of an aide, I hope anyway.

Like shooting a shotgun with not enough DAH that "shoots high" for the shooter even with bird shot, he just has to "aim low" to connect.

This isn't something Im going to do for the next 20 years....or at least not PLANNING to. :oops:

It's not a rifle, wont ever be, and expecting rifle like groups would be an error on my part or anyone trying to make it do such.

As said, just something fun for me to put together and do for something on my bucket list.

I've GENTLY brought up the subject around locals. Mistake, MISTAKE!

"Why would that be easier? What advantage would there be? You wont be able to shoot far!!"

"Right........Why do I want something FUN to be EASY?"......its not like mowing the grass. :bigsmyl2: "

God Bless

[44man]

I have tried to load accurate shotgun slugs forever with no luck at all. I tested Brenneke slugs long ago with sad results. I found WW foster loads so accurate from a smooth bore I could hit a tea cup at 50 yards and kill deer to 100 from a full choke 12 ga. I can not duplicate them at all. I have every slug and RB mold you can get and none work. I even bought a Hastings rifled barrel to play with, scoped it and still can't match the WW slug. Shot cups with slugs or balls just plain suck.
I tried the Hammer Head slug kit, cases you load yourself, primed, just add powder and the slug. I shot 1" groups at 100 with them. Smooth bore 1100, full choke.
A big problem with the Foster slug is wads get blown into the HB. How WW stops that is a mystery to me. Lee has a key in the hollow but shotgun wads can't take it.
The Hammer Head has a sabot as do the newest factory slugs. That is the way to go.

[jmort]

Amazing how much has been lost since the departure of Ajay. He put of plenty of information/data about 20 gauge which is still there if you look.

[44man]

I have tried everything ever posted or written about roll your own slugs and have a more accurate slingshot. If I hunted with slugs, I would buy them.

[Paul Tummers]

Just mentioning the inside diameters of the choke does not say very much to me; choke is a constriction at the end of the barrel but what is interesting therefore is the inside diameter of the barrel before this constriction starts and how long the tapers between nominal barrel diameter and choke diameter of the barrels of your gun are. When those tapers are fairly long, they act as a bullet sizer, are they short, the slug bumps right-away into the constriction and that will raise pressure a lot more.
When casting slugs for a choked gun, I would take pure lead, no additions exempt for some tin to make the lead nicely flowing into your mold.
BTW, I really like that little gun you've got there and am imaging how it will look with an English style buttstock

[IndySteve]

While SUCCESSFULLY finding a DIY load that is suitable is just more fun for me, I'm not at all adverse to buying slug shells, obviously since I've never loaded them myself.

I've only shot 4 with a slug gun but the ammo was factory fodder. The rest were with everything else from revolvers single shot pistols, compounds, recurves, longbows, Black powder rifles, 20 ga slugs for 2 bucks now and 12 ga slug for 2 does and a handful with the 350JR bolt action in 700 Rem. No interest at all in crossbows.

The recent decision to do more small game hunting tipped the scales and the result is this 20 ga double for a meat gun to do just about everything so thought just once or twice EDIT....I would use it for DEER too, again if I can put together something SAFE and lethal to shoot, I'd whack a deer or two with it as well.

Nothing lost I suppose if I am unsuccessful but, to date, I have not found a factory slug anyone could convince me is SAFE to shoot in this tight old side by side. There simply cannot be ANY doubt, or I wont pull the trigger on one in it.

Doing something wrong is hardly new to me but if being wrong costs me the use of this fine old double.......I'd be more than a little upset.

Little will be lost just trying and it is already educational and I haven't ordered anything yet so while it may end up being an exercise in futility I will have to assume I "gained" from it simply by trying and learning.

God Bless and many thanks for all replies.
Steve

[W.R.Buchanan]

"The recent decision to do more small game hunting tipped the scales and the result is this 20 ga double for a meat gun to do just about everything so thought just once or twice, again if I can put together something SAFE and lethal to shoot."

20 ga for shooting Slugs? :veryconfu

Generally I would consider a 20 ga. a massive overkill for shooting slugs. But whatever.

I have used a pellet gun or BB gun in the past when shooting them in my Wife's Garden. They really don't move that fast and aren't much of a challenge.

However now we have a neighbor who has ducks,,, so we just release the ducks and they eat them all in record time and there is no messy clean up afterwards.

If you're talkin' meat here, like "Escargot",, the ones with the shells cook up better.

YMMV!

Randy

[IndySteve]

Just mentioning the inside diameters of the choke does not say very much to me; choke is a constriction at the end of the barrel but what is interesting therefore is the inside diameter of the barrel before this constriction starts and how long the tapers between nominal barrel diameter and choke diameter of the barrels of your gun are. When those tapers are fairly long, they act as a bullet sizer, are they short, the slug bumps right-away into the constriction and that will raise pressure a lot more.
When casting slugs for a choked gun, I would take pure lead, no additions exempt for some tin to make the lead nicely flowing into your mold.
BTW, I really like that little gun you've got there and am imaging how it will look with an English style buttstock

I am in full agreement, Paul. Measuring the opening is only part of the equation but the only part I am capable of doing. It IS going to the local gunsmith tomorrow to see what he can tell me about bore and forcing cones or tapering in any of it.

An English stock WOULD make it a sweet upland gun, I agree. Cost of doing so might make me flinch a little though LOL.

God Bless

[IndySteve]

20 ga for shooting Slugs? :veryconfu

Generally I would consider a 20 ga. a massive overkill for shooting slugs. But whatever.

I have used a pellet gun or BB gun in the past when shooting them in my Wife's Garden.

However now we have a neighbor who has ducks,,, so we just release the ducks and they eat them all in record time and there is no messy clean up afterwards.

YMMV!

Randy

You would FAINT seeing the "common" artillery in use for deer here in IN then, lol. You DID notice that slugs are considered for killing whitetail and whitetail only.....correct?


For DEER (and waterfowl) I know more shooting 3 inch 12 gauge (slugs for deer, and non toxic loads for waterfowl) than all the other options added together and have been chided by some of the "experts" for my "unsportsmanlike" use of such a "minimal energy" weapon.

Let's just say that I told them that I "thought differently"? LOL

God Bless

[IndySteve]

Ah ha..........I see. The ONCE OR TWICE statement. I left out "use it for DEER" once or twice . My error

[dondiego]

He's referring to the garden variety of slugs that are eating his garden.

[IndySteve]

LOL! That one went right over my head, for sure. HOPEFULLY because we don't have slugs (snails) in gardens here. I WAS really lost about the BB gun thing and ducks eating them etc. ROFL. Got me!

Teach me to think too hard about subject at hand.

[Paul Tummers]

I am in full agreement, Paul. Measuring the opening is only part of the equation but the only part I am capable of doing. It IS going to the local gunsmith tomorrow to see what he can tell me about bore and forcing cones or tapering in any of it.

An English stock WOULD make it a sweet upland gun, I agree. Cost of doing so might make me flinch a little though LOL.

God Bless

Hope, your gunsmith finds out that the forcing cones are nicely long and that the inside barrel diameter is somewhat on the narrow side. I am used to that by shooting my Merkel shotguns, same thing, narrow bores, long forcing cones and even a moderate constriction causes them to throw narrow patterns, but they also do perform well with Brenneke slugs out to 50 meters.
For my 12 gauge Merkel I use Sauvestre slugs, they are undersized and have a plastic sleeve on them and I have seen people shooting them out to 100 meters with marvelous accuracy.

[IndySteve]

Those Sauvestre slugs are WILD compared to standard types. I've never seen anything like that. Wild price too.:-o 4 boxes of 5 rounds with shipping comes out just under 5 dollars each.

Pretty awesome technology though!!

Thank you for sharing that.
God Bless

[GhostHawk]

I've hunted deer with shotgun and slugs for years. Started out with a .410 bolt action mossberg but pretty quickly graduated to a Remington 870 Wingmaster in 20 gauge. It took me a few years to put it all together, learn timing, lead, concealment but once I did I had no problems at all killing deer. I was known for killing them up close. A friend watched me once as a big doe was coming right at me across an open field. I was hunkered down in a patch of weeds the size of a garbage can around a power pole. Gun was up, I had a good bead, I let her come. She was coming hell bent for election with a full head of steam, when I figured that was close enough I gave her one right in the brisket. Her head went down, she did 3 somersaults and landed with her nose on my toe. That's close enough :)

12 Ga is overkill IMO and I don't think in most cases as accurate. .410 is accurate, possibly more accurate than my 20, but IMO is light, doesn't pack enough punch to DRT em.

While I've reloaded rifle ammo for years I never even considered the slugs. Back in those days you could buy a box of 25 for less than what you pay for shotshells now. I still have 40+ slugs for the 20 but I don't see me using them up anytime soon.

If I was to go back to the woods I'd most likely carry my SKS. At 50 yards that girl puts all 10 into a pop can sized diameter, and I know it reaches a lot farther than the slugs.

Main thing to me with slugs is learn your gun, pattern it a month before season so you have time to make changes if needed.
Find one brand that works for you and stick with it. From there it is a matter of confidence and education, and a little luck never hurts.

[MarkP]

If you can not find any brush wads or do don't want to buy a bag of them, try trimming the petals on a regular wad with a razor blade, trim them such that they are just below the equator of the ball. Depending on the hull and powder combination you may need some hard wads to elevate the ball for proper crimp. I am using 0.575" balls in a rifled 20 ga bbl with a full wad, balls rests on top of homemade paper mache' wads, 8 point fold crimp. This is a light recoil alternative for my daughter. The Lee 58 Target mini shot very well but it is around 475 gr and had more recoil than I wanted expose my daughter to even at a relatively low velocity. I do not think the 58 Lee would shoot too well maybe well enough at 15 yards.

[MaryB]

Been using 12 gauge slugs for deer for years. Longest shot was 115 yards to drop a nice doe. That was with a well used 870 express with the standard barrel(couldn't afford a rifled barrel back then). Got used to it and never saw a reason to upgrade barrels.

[adanymous]

Under sized slugs could harm the barrels?????? First I've ever hear that. Any info is appreciated but slugs have been shot out of ALL kinds of shot barrels for longer than Ive been alive. I've never heard of damage from such unless slug was larger than the choke. I DO appreciate the info but explain please?

God Bless

I probably should add I have at my disposal the 350JR round in a rifle I had built should I wish to shoot deer long range. This isn't intended as something "Better".....just fun. :bigsmyl2:
The buck I shot last year was less than 15 yards. If it can hit a dinner plate regularly at 25 yards, I can whack something. Limiting myself to SHORT range is not a bad thing to me. Adds some sport to it. 99 brown and down, the majority shot with a longbow and home made wood arrows. I'm ok with really short range.

IMHO......my 100th deer should be something fun, something different and this is what I chose to do it with, if at all possible. Nothing else. Just a personal quest.

I have nothing to add to the shotgun conundrum just wanted to say you're a guy with taste. Ive killed more than a pile myself, and now Im a self bow and cane arrow guy for the most part. Or ill use my flintlock, that is until the wife tells me its freezer filling time, then I break out the old savage 99. Im gonna use my 300aac suppressed this year for one, just cause it was just legalized and Ive never done it. But then, back to the Flint Lock or Bow. Those just seem to make it mean more to me, and be more respectful to them.

[Paul Tummers]

Those Sauvestres are wild, both in performance and in price, I agree!
We do not need many of them, just do have a couple of them in our pockets for the occasion a wild boar is sighted in close range when hunting small game.

[W.R.Buchanan]

IndySteve: I just knew you'd figure it out. :holysheep

I am in CA so the idea of using slugs for hunting never was an issue here. However I do use a slug load for shooting 3 gun matches and those are known as Pumpkin Balls. IE .662 round balls with a 1/4" felt wad loaded into my standard Trap Load. They are accurate to 60+ yards and hit like a bus. But the recoil is the same as my normal Trap Loads which I can shoot a bunch of in one sitting.

On another note, I just bought some Federal .410 slugs for My M6 Scout. I was very surprised to find 125 gr slugs at 1700 fps from a .410. That is above .357 power!, and brings that gun to a whole different level of usefulness. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a Deer sized animal with it in a survival situation. Maybe out to 30-35 yards.

Randy

[Paul Tummers]

I once owned an old BP cape gun made by Imman. Meffert in Suhl; side by side hammer gun, left barrel smooth bore 20 gauge, right barrel rifled, also 20 gauge and a set trigger for the right barrel. Both barrels were chambered for the 2 1/2" rounds. This gun had beautiful damascus barrels and shot a slug cast from soft lead with a weight of 24 grams. It has been used in the past several times to down a bull that escaped from the abattoir with a one of those slugs and my uncle who owned that gun at that time claimed, he never had to shoot twice.

[rjhasbeer@gmail.com]

I saw a u tube video where they cut almost halfway thru the shell on each side a little above the base of the shot cup. When shot the entire outerplastic cylinder and shot charge went out to the target like a slug. It would be an inexpensive way to see what pattern and accuracy you get.

[grampa243]

I saw a u tube video where they cut almost halfway thru the shell on each side a little above the base of the shot cup. When shot the entire outerplastic cylinder and shot charge went out to the target like a slug. It would be an inexpensive way to see what pattern and accuracy you get.

this is actually a very bad thing to do. it raises the pressure alot and could ruin the chokes if not the whole barrel.

[IndySteve]

I appreciate the info but had seen the "cut shell" process before. Scares me and I'm fearless. :razz:

ESPECIALLY in a tight choked gun.

I like messing around with options, even those not tried by others to my knowledge, but if my brain starts waving red flags.......I listen.

I'll have to pick up some .575 balls and some spacer wads to see what Ill need to get the right height in a shortened shot cup or if the cupless plastic wads are long enough as is, which I doubt but Ive never handled one.

I have a sneaking suspicion those French "arrow slugs" (the name I'd have to go back and copy and paste. I cant say that let alone remember it!) would "work" but I have an email off to both the mfg and the US distributor asking about the resiliency of the sabot and if they have an estimated MINIMUM bore size diameter they would fit through...........but.......

Loading my own sounds like a heck of a lot more fun.

If I dumbed into a really nice buck (and that is all it would be but it does happen) and whack it with a side by side 20 ga and hand loaded round balls........the local deer "egg-spurts" would have convulsions.

I guess that makes me kind of rotten, huh? [smilie=l:

I don't hang my head in shame, like the local inch hunters think I should because I openly admit I am a MEAT hunter. I've shot some nice bucks and a bigger one would be nice.......so would a 200 lb doe, IMHO. I've always been a meat hunter, pretty much but the "how" I took them has always been up there on some scale used at the time. Still is.

In the decades I've viewed the changes in hunting, especially DEER hunting it seems to ME that many have forgotten this is supposed to be FUN and while "productive" is the end goal too, having fun DOING it is mandatory for me.......or I wouldn't do it near as much.

To each their own but when I hear some of the locals say "Man, I just want to shoot one and get it over with. I'm wore out!".........I can only shake my head in sympathy but I keep my yap zipped unless someone happens to notice the look on my face (sadness) and ask.

I think this ol double is "home" to stay. As funds allow I have an itch for a 16ga in IC/Mod or one I can have professionally opened up to the old common European "1/4 and 3/4" chokes on my wish list but other mandatory priorities keep interfering with my "fun".

Lots to do loading and patterning various shot and shot sizes and trying different spreaders and have till Nov to worry about slug loads so.....no rush I guess.

I guess too that now that I am on limited income due to physical issues, what I am able to buy and put a feasible package together with, makes each item a bit more appreciated as well. What I am blessed to take WITH such is doubly so.

Glass half full..........that isn't a "bad thing" though, not IMO.

God Bless!

[Cap'n Morgan]

I understand your reluctance to alter the gun. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate for a second before opening the chokes on any shotgun tighter than modified, but that's just me ;)

[GhostHawk]

I used to shoot almost exclusively little fork horns and young does. Lets just say I had a taste for young and tender :) Guys in the crew gave me a hard time saying I should be pushing hard for a big buck. Naw, when I'm ready, he'll come. Meantime that young tender stuff tastes great and is good on the grill. 3-4 minutes on a hot grill, flip it and 3-4 more but have everything else ready when you put them on cause you need to eat them while they are HOT.

Eventually of course that big buck did come along, and if he was bigger than any they had shot is vindication, LOL well so be it.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Steve those pumpkin ball loads I described above will work exactly the same way in your 20 ga. As far as ball sizing goes you need a ball/ wad petal thickness that is right at or slightly smaller than the choke ID. IE measure the Choke ID with Calipers and then the thickness of the Petals of your wad and what ever is left is the size of the ball.

In my case with a cylinder bore 12 ga it was .662 + .035+.035 = .732 My bore is .735 so the fit is perfect.

This load is 20 gr of Green Dot with a WAA 12 wad normally with 1 1/8oz of shot. I replace the shot with a .662 Ball atop a 1/4" felt wad to cushion the ball. The wad also brings the ball right up to where the level of the shot normally is so that the crimp folds shut just like it does with normal shot load.

This load has the same or less recoil than my regular trap load with #8 shot.

The key to getting this to work right is obviously the fit of the ball/wad in the barrel and the height of the ball in the hull which will govern how well the crimp closes.

Lots of info in the Casting for Shotguns section.

Randy

[IndySteve]

Good Stuff. Thanks bunches for sharing that. I'll take a look.
God Bless

[W.R.Buchanan]

For what you are trying to do with your gun these will work perfectly. it is just a matter of finding the right sized ball.

Mine Is a Lyman Round Ball mould and they make a variety of sizes that will cover many different bore dias. I would start looking for a ball mould there.

After re reading your OP I see you have a choke dia. of .584. so your ball is going to be in the .525 range for use with a plastic cup wad which will be the best way as it will seal the bore best. Another way would be to trim the wad petals down to where they are below the ball in which case you could use the larger ball.

The other way to go is to load the hulls old school with card style wads and use and over shot card and a Roll Crimp in which case the .575 ball would work OK.

Ballistic Products has everything known to man as far a shotshell loading components.

My last comment is,,, don't try to load these to Warp Speed Velocities. It is absolutely not necessary for what you are trying to accomplish.

If you can duplicate a normal factory 7/8oz Target Load it will be more than sufficient for knocking down the short range Bambi of your choosing. A load that generates 11-1200 fps will be pleasant to shoot and do the job just fine, and it will not stress your gun at all.

If you were going to shoot a large bear then I would say juice it up a little, but if you were going to shoot a bear with a shotgun you'd probably be better off with a 12 ga. any way.

Randy

[DougGuy]

Man, I gotta tell ya, that ol' girl is SO NICE LOOKING, please just leave her alone and hunt deer with a different gun okay? They just don't MAKE guns like that anymore, and it looks to be in such pristine shape it really deserves more of a place of honor above the mantle than to be toted around the deer woods.

There are any number of good deer guns on the market, the choices are manyfold, pick one and let that nice ol' girl be appreciated as a symbol of times long gone in these United States Of America.

[masscaster]

Shot cup & Round ball works great!!

[Larry Gibson]

I usually hunt slugs with and air rifle. I find a common match WC does very well on the garden and lawn variety. Sometimes I load the WC's backwards for the mondo HP effect on them! However, if in the rain forests of the coastal mountains or the Cascades and hunting the Greater Horned Slugs I'll switch to my RWS M54 with Crosman Premiers. At 800 fps the round harder alloyed domed pellet gives the needed penetration on large "boss". If I have to go "sort things out" with a rogue I'll switch to a CF rifle with heavy for caliber softer cast bullet in the 1050 - 1150 fps range. A WFN bullet makes a good "stopper" when they charge.............

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Steve those pumpkin ball loads I described above will work exactly the same way in your 20 ga. As far as ball sizing goes you need a ball/ wad petal thickness that is right at or slightly smaller than the choke ID. IE measure the Choke ID with Calipers and then the thickness of the Petals of your wad and what ever is left is the size of the ball.

In my case with a cylinder bore 12 ga it was .662 + .035+.035 = .732 My bore is .735 so the fit is perfect.

This load is 20 gr of Green Dot with a WAA 12 wad normally with 1 1/8oz of shot. I replace the shot with a .662 Ball atop a 1/4" felt wad to cushion the ball. The wad also brings the ball right up to where the level of the shot normally is so that the crimp folds shut just like it does with normal shot load.

This load has the same or less recoil than my regular trap load with #8 shot.

The key to getting this to work right is obviously the fit of the ball/wad in the barrel and the height of the ball in the hull which will govern how well the crimp closes.

Lots of info in the Casting for Shotguns section.

Randy
Been there done that. Like having someone pitch the ball and trying to bat it into a deer.

[IndySteve]

Man, I gotta tell ya, that ol' girl is SO NICE LOOKING, please just leave her alone and hunt deer with a different gun okay? They just don't MAKE guns like that anymore, and it looks to be in such pristine shape it really deserves more of a place of honor above the mantle than to be toted around the deer woods.

There are any number of good deer guns on the market, the choices are manyfold, pick one and let that nice ol' girl be appreciated as a symbol of times long gone in these United States Of America.

Many would agree with you but when it comes to a fine old shotgun such as this double that has been neglected for decades I feel more than a bit of satisfaction by allowing it to join me out where it was made to be used......in the field.

While it would more serve my purpose OVER ALL to open the chokes and use it mainly for upland game, the gun was choked to do something particularly well, in fact, at distances far and away further than I would have ever guess such could ever successfully repeat those same distances and kills.

While not "perfect" for upland game with such tight chokes, a little effort on my end will make it more so without alterations and still allow it to be a FINE 20 gauge waterfowl and turkey gun with standard loads for such. Open the chokes and it would never again do ALL of that.

While in time another double will join it in my home, for now the ol double is "it" and the goal of combining the gun's abilities with mine is just part of the game.

With a few years left (I hope) to enjoy it in the field, I also feel the gun deserves more than to sit on the wall, unappreciated. Someday after I am gone, and the boys and their families deem that it is worthy, then.....it will be on the wall in a remembrance of the ol man along with photos of game taken with it.

Perhaps it's best described as just the fact that I have gotten old and hunting means more to me now than ever even though I've drove my family nuts hunting all I could since pre high school and , hand in hand, the firearms of choice NOW are quite dissimilar to the ones in the past, most of which I regarded as nothing more than a tool.

An old double has never been in that classification and while I had new doubles years ago, it's not quite the same but even as a young man out whacking and stacking them........I knew I would spend my last years with a side by side slung over my forearm for as long as the good Lord allows.

Some may jump in and say it wasn't MADE to hunt deer. Tough to tell. In 1950 there wasn't a deer "season" here in Indiana. People just shot them for meat and bet they shot them with whatever gun they had in hand..doubles included.

One thing I need to do is tear apart an old Remington Slugger. The largest complaints on this slug is that it isn't large enough in diameter until fired and an unfired slug will fall though standard slug gun barrels. Before I go off half cocked I need to check one of these out.

Loading my own still sounds fun but the much lower velocities I see in most slug loads further limits the lighter slugs or balls for such a shotgun and I have no desire to add more to the risk of wounding a deer than necessary, least of all just because it's a bit more fun.

So much information here and I thank you all. Ill have to check out the Slugger and may yet try some balls too to compare but the factory fodder is ON PAPER the more lethal of the two, even at close range.

God Bless and thanks to all, once again.
Steve

[longbow]

Not sure what size the Remington sluggers are... now at least. My understanding is that Foster slugs all used to be considerably undersize to bore diameter. I do not know if that is true but I read an article some years ago that stated that federal upped the diameter of their slugs to bore diameter then other manufacturers followed suit and overall accuracy improved.

I cannot verify that but I can say that my Lyman Foster slug mould in 12 ga. casts a 0.705" slug which is certainly undersize for a nominal 0.729" bore. However, after recovering slugs shot into deep wet fresh snow I can certainly say that a soft lead slug cast at 0.705" obturates to fill a 0.729" bore. I can also say that of the several I recovered, the skirts and noses were all "cocked" as the slugs were obviously tipped at slightly different angles when they obturated. And no, this did not happen on impact because they fit the muzzle after recovery.

So, the moral of that story is that regardless of being undersize when they started out, they obturated to fill the bore so IF a choke was present they would have to swage down to get through the choke anyway... so why on earth would anyone want to start with an undersize slug that has to obturate? Might as well start with bore size and either way, home cast or store bought those same slug have to swage down through a choke safely. So they should go through your chokes safely.

Accuracy, now that is a whole different issue.

If you try Remington sluggers, you may find that they shoot quite well, even through your chokes. I shot Federal factory Fosters through my Browning BPS with I/C choke and they shot extremely well. In fact I wish I could get home cast slugs to shoot that well.

I still lean towards round balls though, and again, I think you will get a 0.575" ball to meet or exceed BP muzzleloader velocities and no-one complains that a .58 cal round ball from a muzzleloader is lacking for close range deer hunting (within 100 yards). I still maintain that accuracy will be your limiting factor, not killing power so you need to sort out what your maximum range for hunting accuracy is then stay within that limit.

For sure, try out the Sluggers and see how they do but also check terminal performance of both sluggers and round balls.

Again, just my opinion.

Longbow

[44man]

long ago when I needed a shotgun in Ohio, I tested everything. But went with a flint lock in the end. Winchester slugs always won out, Rem second and Brenneke missed paper most times at 50 yards. Scoped shotguns from a rest.
Hand loads always had a problem with what is behind the slug or ball. Shot cups are destroyed with slugs or balls.
BPI came out with a new cup that failed and is gone from the site. I have their slug loading book and no loads are accurate enough for deer.

[dondiego]

I have had good luck with the Lyman wasp wasted slug that fits in the WW red wads over 40 grains of BlueDot in a rifled Rem. 870. Many deer have fallen to that slug!

[Paul Tummers]

I understand your reluctance to alter the gun. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate for a second before opening the chokes on any shotgun tighter than modified, but that's just me ;)

I had the chokes of 2 guns opened in the past, was no succes because the POI changed dramatically and this job was done by a gunsmith!
That also is one of the reasons, I will always check the chokes when looking at a used gun- it can be as nice as it is, but when not conform stampings, I'll leave it were it is.
The only exemption was an old Belgian double 12 gauge were the barrels were shortened because of an accident in the past while hunting in winter and one of the barrels was plugged with snow and shot. The muzzle cracked, it was however a gun with long barrels, so the shortening did not make it look strange and this gun became my rabbit gun for many years.

[IndySteve]

Not sure what size the Remington sluggers are... now at least. My understanding is that Foster slugs all used to be considerably undersize to bore diameter. I do not know if that is true but I read an article some years ago that stated that federal upped the diameter of their slugs to bore diameter then other manufacturers followed suit and overall accuracy improved.

I cannot verify that but I can say that my Lyman Foster slug mould in 12 ga. casts a 0.705" slug which is certainly undersize for a nominal 0.729" bore. However, after recovering slugs shot into deep wet fresh snow I can certainly say that a soft lead slug cast at 0.705" obturates to fill a 0.729" bore. I can also say that of the several I recovered, the skirts and noses were all "cocked" as the slugs were obviously tipped at slightly different angles when they obturated. And no, this did not happen on impact because they fit the muzzle after recovery.

So, the moral of that story is that regardless of being undersize when they started out, they obturated to fill the bore so IF a choke was present they would have to swage down to get through the choke anyway... so why on earth would anyone want to start with an undersize slug that has to obturate? Might as well start with bore size and either way, home cast or store bought those same slug have to swage down through a choke safely. So they should go through your chokes safely.

Accuracy, now that is a whole different issue.

If you try Remington sluggers, you may find that they shoot quite well, even through your chokes. I shot Federal factory Fosters through my Browning BPS with I/C choke and they shot extremely well. In fact I wish I could get home cast slugs to shoot that well.

I still lean towards round balls though, and again, I think you will get a 0.575" ball to meet or exceed BP muzzleloader velocities and no-one complains that a .58 cal round ball from a muzzleloader is lacking for close range deer hunting (within 100 yards). I still maintain that accuracy will be your limiting factor, not killing power so you need to sort out what your maximum range for hunting accuracy is then stay within that limit.

For sure, try out the Sluggers and see how they do but also check terminal performance of both sluggers and round balls.

Again, just my opinion.

Longbow

My understanding of the foster slug is that it's ABILITY to form to bore and easily to chokes is WHY it was created for smooth more guns and why the edges are thin. Just to do that, safely. ???

If ignition forces causes the slug to spread out to bore size it tough for me to wrap my head around it taking much to reduce again for the choke BUT......forcing cone length would play a part.

Ive a buddy that has shot such out of his 50s Model 12 win full choke for decades but I've never measured it to see how tight it was.

A 5/8 Remington foster slug computes to only a couple grains different than a .575" ball in mass on the charts Ive found but Ive not seen any 1500 Plus fps hand loads in anything but steel shot.

BOTH would take a deer out. If not a LOT of difference in accuracy, even while kind of neat, I don't see much requirement for loading when Sluggers can be bought for a buck each.

NOT having all the equipment for casting, nor the need for cast other than maybe a couple dozen bullets of any type in a year, buying such just isn't feasible on my limited and fixed income.

The Wasp waist slug looks interesting but "made for rifled barrels" so....hmm. They are available online pre cast though, 30 bucks a 100. That's a lot of slugs LOL

God Bless

[Paul Tummers]

Make sure you get a rather soft alloy cast when you buy them, just to make sure they do not raise pressure too much when passing through the choke constriction. When I would have made my decision to go with a certain type of slug, I would buy the mold and some casting equipment myself; buying a mold, a melting pot and a ladle would be an investment I easily can justify and when I have that stuff and some pure lead and some tin, I can cast a couple of dozen and then clean and oil the mold when made of steel and store away for next time. Shooting slugs is also something that has to be trained with the rifle used for hunting to find the POI in relation to the front sight-rib picture one sees so 50 slugs to start with is not a luxury.

[longbow]

I just took a look through my Lyman Shotshell Reloading Manual 3rd Ed. and not only are there Foster slug loads listed at just under 1600 FPS, there are a number of 0.575" RB loads listed at over 1600 FPS.

Like I said, you shouldn't have any trouble duplicating .58 muzzleloader ballistics. Within 60 yards if you have the accuracy , you will have the power.

Longbow

[44man]

Power has never been lacking, only accuracy.

[longbow]

He said he couldn't find any load recipes that were even near 1500 FPS. I have lots well over 1500 FPS.

Also, not sure about the 20 ga. as I have not loaded one for many years, and few slugs, but accuracy is not an issue with my 12 ga.'s. Any decent load with round ball will stay within 3" to 4" at 50 yards. First time out with Lee Drive key slugs resulted in 6" groups at 50 yards. I am sure some load development would tighten those groups up. That should be accurate enough.

Longbow