PDA

View Full Version : 44-40 cast bullet size?



gdpudge
08-05-2014, 01:41 PM
I have a quick question. I'm going to be loading some 44-40 cast bullets. The mold I have is .430 should I buy a resizing die for the cast bullets to size them down to .429? I do this for my .357 cast loads and tumble them with alox. Is this necessary for the .430 in the 44-40. Thanks for the input

w30wcf
08-05-2014, 02:04 PM
If a case loaded with the .430 bullet will fit into the gun, then I would use them at that diameter.

w30wcf

Calamity Jake
08-05-2014, 03:10 PM
What he said ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ If a .430 fits, shoot it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

masscaster
08-05-2014, 03:28 PM
Is this for a Rifle or Pistol?
Check your cylinder throats and bore if it's a revolver, likewise a rifle should also be slugged before any diameter is used.
I've seen these vary quite a bit. From .427 - .431 in Rifles, and some cylinder throats larger than bore size in pistols.
If it's a newer firearm that hasn't seen BP then this might not be too severe in a Pistol.

Jeff

Larry Gibson
08-05-2014, 03:33 PM
If a case loaded with the .430 bullet will fit into the gun, then I would use them at that diameter.

w30wcf

+ another! I use .430 sized in my Ruger Vaquero OM.

Larry Gibson

gdpudge
08-05-2014, 04:24 PM
Thanks for the replies. They will be used in a uberti revolver. Thanks again but still open for more input

HATCH
08-05-2014, 04:41 PM
I load 44-40 for several pistols and rifles. They are all sized .430

Remington Model 14 1/2
Winchester 94 lever
Rossi Lever
Smith & Wesson 544
and a few more I am forgetting.

Outpost75
08-05-2014, 07:58 PM
To determine the correct bullet diameter for a rifle, the groove diameter of the barrel is NOT the determinant.

INSTEAD you want to measure the throat, or the unrifled portion of the barrel forcing cone or "ball seat" ahead of the case mouth, before the rifling starts. The best way to do this is from a chamber cast or upset throat slug.

If you forget EVERYTHING you ever read about slugging barrels and simply cast chambers from now on, and get bullets to FIT THE THROAT you will be far happier in the long run.

The limiting factor in bullet diameter is neck clearance. So you must ALSO measure the neck diameter of the chamber on the cast, then the loaded cartridge neck diameter must not be larger than 0.0015" SMALLER than the chamber cast at that point, to ensure safe expansion for bullet release.

In a min. .44-40 SAAMI chamber the neck diameter is 0.445" where it joins the shoulder and 0.4435" at the mouth. Typical case mouth wall thickness of Starline brass is 0.007," so .445" minus twice neck thickness (0.014") = .431", minus another 0.0015 to allow for safe neck expansion and fouling = .4295" max. bullet IF you have a minimum chamber. The normal allowed tolerance for a sporting chamber is +0.002" on diameters, so IF your chamber neck casts as large as .447", which My Marlin 1894S does, you can load a .431" bullet in that Starline brass! Try a dummy round for fit first!!!!

runfiverun
08-06-2014, 01:31 AM
if your mold makes 430 try a dummy round and see whats up.
then make 1-2 loaded rounds of ammo, fire them and measure again.
there is what you got to work with minus case spring back.
if you see leading you need to find out why, if not make some more and shoot them..

gdpudge
08-07-2014, 11:22 AM
I think I'm going to need a .429 sizeing die for the cast bullets. Apparently there's a much finer line of case flare as opposed to crushing the case in the bullet seating die useing the .430 cast with the lee die set. I crushed 2 cases in the process. Oops! Thanks for your help.

257
08-21-2014, 10:59 PM
I have 3 rifles in 38/40 two in 44/40 they all have different size bores (slugged) the 38/40 s have a variance of .0045 the 44/40s .0035 all guns are late 1800s Winchesters hi wall 1873 1892 s it seems in the pld days the bores differed a lot all 5 rifles have perfect bores (no rust or pits) I have 2 32/20 handguns t/c and a ruger there bores are exactly the same

fouronesix
08-21-2014, 11:23 PM
Most originals favor the .430 size. No matter what, you need to figure out how to load slightly oversize cast bullets. There are dies that have the proper case neck expanding/flaring capability. The seating die can then be set to take the flare out and crimp if needed.

In the case of a modern Uberti revolver… I'd slug the cylinder throats to see what you have BEFORE committing to sizing the cast bullets down so they will be convenient to seat. There may be a difference between easy to reload and best accuracy with minimal leading. If in fact the cylinder throats are less than .430... only then would it make sense to size down the bullets.

MT Chambers
08-21-2014, 11:45 PM
Get yourself a proper set of reloading dies from Redding or RCBS,esp. the RCBS Cowboy dies.

runfiverun
08-22-2014, 12:29 AM
I seat my 430 diameter 44-40's in a 45 colt die then go back to the seat die to roll crimp.
I make dang sure my case mouths are round before sizing/depriming by running a pair of needle nose pliars in the case mouth and giving it a quick twist.
I also make sure I have plenty of flair on the case mouth before seating.
i'll take one less reload on 100 cases versus the aggravation of losing 2-3 every time I load the batch.

the one major thing I learned was to operate the press handle in a slow deliberate manner and to stop any time I felt a bump or square edge.

Outpost75
08-22-2014, 10:43 AM
I seat my 430 diameter 44-40's in a 45 colt die then go back to the seat die to roll crimp. I make dang sure my case mouths are round before sizing/depriming by running a pair of needle nose pliars in the case mouth and giving it a quick twist. I also make sure I have plenty of flair on the case mouth before seating. i'll take one less reload on 100 cases versus the aggravation of losing 2-3 every time I load the batch. the one major thing I learned was to operate the press handle in a slow deliberate manner and to stop any time I felt a bump or square edge.

^ THERE speaks the voice of EXPERIENCE! And now let us all say AMEN!

114232114233

In .44-40 I use the Accurate 43-200Q heeled bullet and start bullets carefully into the casemouth with my FINGERS, then after wiping a pea-sized dab of soft grease such as Darr Lube or Drydene Pyroplex (rhymes with Pyrodex) around the heel I push the bullet to the nose stop flange by pushing it against a table edge by hand. Only then does the bullet go into a seater die to crimp. All operations being conducted with due attention and deliberate caution as stated above.

The nose flange of this bullet is .448" in the as-cast condition, whereas the bands on the shank are of normal .44-40 size. This avoids enlarging the case necks with Starline brass, avoiding any chambering problems in tight chambers, but the nose can either be cold-formed to conform to the interior of the seating die, when using soft alloy, such as 1:30 tin/lead for blackpowder loads, OR with harder alloy, such as wheelweights for smokeless loads, it can be sized and lubed in the conventional manner to fit any worn, or oversized throat.

I wipe the bullet base clean by running it across a baby diaper before hand-starting the bullet in the case to the first band with my fingers. I then hand-lube and after push-seating against a table edge to stop on the nose flange, I wipe off any excess lube which has extruded out the case mouth. Then I crimp GENTLY, using a standard Lee seater WITH ITS SEATING STEM REMOVED -- the die is used to CRIMP ONLY!

The design intent was of this bullet was to provide a bullet suitable for worn, original blackpowder barrels which may require bullets of larger diameter than would otherwise chamber. This objective was accomplished, and the bullet has proven wonderful with both Cowboy and full charge smokeless loads from 1000 to over 1400 fps. It is the most accurate bullet I have used to date in the .44-40. It works equally well in modern Marlin Microgroove barrels, old worn salt & pepper '73 Winchesters as large as .435" groove, or modern tight-Ballard ones.

The group below was fired with a Marlin 1894S .44-40 with Microgroove barrel in 36" twist, using hand-lubed bullets in Starline brass with CCI primers and 7.2 grains of Bullseye powder, which averaged 1178 fps. This is a typical group in a series of five ten-shot groups which averaged about 2 inches at 50 yards fired off sandbags with iron sights and reflects reality.

114236

This is the do-all to end all .44-40 bullet and can be made to "fit" in any .44-40 rifle or revolver.

runfiverun
08-22-2014, 09:25 PM
holy cow that's beautiful.
it would sure work well in some other situations too.
I hope goodsteel sees this, he has a trouble levergun and we have been debating boolit design back and forth quite a bit for it.
he's hung up on static fit for it and I keep pointing out the pitfalls of how a levergun really works, and explaining that a running mechanical fit would be a better choice.
this is an absolutely brilliant solution in that it gives you both at one time.
for my 44-40 model 92 I cast a super nice 200gr boolit designed around the older 44-40's with the smaller .427 diameter in mind, it makes 429ish with w/soft alloy I then size/lube to 428.
I then bump swage them up to 430, in a swage die BT sniper made me to make jacketed bullets fit my browning 92 in 44 mag which requires rounds that are a little shorter than saami specs.
this shortens the nose a click and widens it out to the larger diameter, I was sure surprised at the difference it made when I made the adjustment to the die to include the nose section right above the crimp groove in the bump up.

MBTcustom
08-23-2014, 12:03 AM
holy cow that's beautiful.
it would sure work well in some other situations too.
I hope goodsteel sees this, he has a trouble levergun and we have been debating boolit design back and forth quite a bit for it.
he's hung up on static fit for it and I keep pointing out the pitfalls of how a levergun really works, and explaining that a running mechanical fit would be a better choice.
this is an absolutely brilliant solution in that it gives you both at one time.
for my 44-40 model 92 I cast a super nice 200gr boolit designed around the older 44-40's with the smaller .427 diameter in mind, it makes 429ish with w/soft alloy I then size/lube to 428.
I then bump swage them up to 430, in a swage die BT sniper made me to make jacketed bullets fit my browning 92 in 44 mag which requires rounds that are a little shorter than saami specs.
this shortens the nose a click and widens it out to the larger diameter, I was sure surprised at the difference it made when I made the adjustment to the die to include the nose section right above the crimp groove in the bump up.

I see it Lamar.
But I don't have any problem with my 44 Rossi. It shoots fine for what it is. I was just doing mental gymnastics for the fun of it. This rebated boolit up yonder looks pretty cool though.

runfiverun
08-23-2014, 10:58 AM
it's another dimension to think about.
that thread was a good one on the lever gun fit. [I linked it in my storage area here]
and has given me some pause in thinking about which way is the right way and have almost decided that there isn't an exact better one.
I think you have to have a bit of both, good static fit [of course] and some wiggle room to let things work it out for themselves on the run.
you also have to give displaced metal somewhere to go.
this xcb thing is going to answer some questions for a lot of people too because there isn't a road map to follow.

JonB_in_Glencoe
05-31-2016, 10:18 AM
SNIP...

, which My Marlin 1894S does, you can load a .431" bullet in that Starline brass! Try a dummy round for fit first!!!!

I thought I'd wake up this thread...it's content has helped some.

I have never loaded 44-40.
I think I have everything to do so...but I don't have possession of the Rifle, a Marlin 1894s bought new in the early 1990s, rarely used, I assume it's in like new condition inside and out.

Can I assume the chamber is similar to Outpost75's gun ?
It seems I've read Marlin 1894s chambers/bores in 44mag are oversized, but they are a consistent oversize. So can I assume the Marlin 44-40 are consistant?

I have cast some of the Lee 200gr RF and sized/lubed them .430
and plan to crimp them into the crimp groove.
http://leeprecision.com/images/P/90285.jpg
http://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-429-200-rf.html

I need to load these for a trip, for use in the gun, at the destination. I'd like them to chamber and not create lead fouling. I have vintage 'winchester' brass, most of which is never used/never sized. I also have some mix HS used brass of unknown history.

Any thoughts?

Harry O
05-31-2016, 03:56 PM
+ another! I use .430 sized in my Ruger Vaquero OM.

Larry Gibson

My Ruger Vaquero would not accept anything with larger than a 0.427" bullet (from the early 1990's era). Unfortunately, the bore was 0.430". I sent it back to Ruger twice to get fixed and they refused. Said that it met their standards. It never did shoot lead worth a darned.

Outpost75
05-31-2016, 04:18 PM
My .44 Magnum Vaquero has .430 throats. no issues.

My .44-40 Vaquero had .425 throats and .433 chamber NECK so both the chamber necks AND throats had to be reamed so that I could load .430 bullets to fit its .429 barrel.

John Taylor did this for two Ruger .44-40 cylinders I had, which now have .447 chamber necks and .4305 throats so that I can load .430 bullets in Starline brass to shoot in their .429 barrels and the guns are Accurate!