Small primer cases for the 45-70

[Irascible]

I saw somewhere that Buffalo bore is selling their 45-70 ammo with small primers to avoid magazine tube explosions in the Marlin 1895! I know what they are getting at, worrying about the cases cocking in the bulge that is in the tube to facilitate loading. REALLY? Has anyone ever heard of such a problem? I think it's another lawyer try to prove he is worth keeping on the pay roll.

[Outpost75]

I think that using a small primer in such a large case is a BIG mistake, especially with smokeless powder, because even a magnum small rifle primer would be marginal in the case of heavily coated powders, in lower loading densities than about 70% of case capacity.

In my testing of .45 ACP target ammunition, the small size primer is better balanced for light charges of easily ignited, fast burning powders, such as Bullseye, TiteGroup, etc., but in full service loads with slower burning powders, there is about a 40-45 fps velocity drop with the small vs. the large primer. Using magnum small pistol primers in the .45 ACP case with hardball equivalent loads gives performance very close to standard large pistol primers with the same components.

[longbow]

I find it hard to believe that even a round nose boolit would set off a primer, especially when one considers that the cartridges ride on an angle in the tube due to both rim and taper.

I shot thousands of rounds of hot loaded .45-70's in my old Marlin using the Lyman 457124 385 gr. round nose boolit with no problems at all.

Of course a flat nose boolit would eliminate any possibility of setting off a primer.

Longbow

[Tackleberry41]

Seems like a solution for a problem that doesnt exist. One that only complicates reloading. For the longest time, 45ACP range brass was no problem, now you have to check and make sure you dont get any small primer cases mixed with large. I dont generally see more than a few, if any, but only takes one to jam up the works. So now we would need to check 45-70 cases, just in case one is a rare small primer version.

Not sure the reasoning anyways, only factory loaded pointed 45-70 ammo is gonna be the hornady with the flex tip. I made the mistake of buying some spitzer 458s once, not that they would cycle thru the marlin 1895 I had.

[Irascible]

I think the questionable reasoning is that a cartridge, with a flat nose bullet, would enter that bulge which would angle it enough so that an edge on the FP would be inline with the next primer. Very questionable indeed!

[shooterbob]

I can't think of a reason other than pricing and availability. It doesn't make a lot sense other than that.

[TXGunNut]

My concern is that a small primer pocket would possibly preclude using SP primers in BP loads, some BP loads for the 45-70 do quite well with LP primers so presumably they wouldn't need the larger flame of the SR primer.

[pull the trigger]

The smaller primer size takes higher pressure aka a hotter load. The guys shooting 6.8 in ar15s like the small primers because of this.

[GoodOlBoy]

I don't know about small primer 45-70s. I did run across a company almost a decade back that made 45-70s with 209 shotshell primer pockets. Wish the heck I had picked up a few. A guy I knew had some and they worked very well for black powder and subs for him. Unfortunately when he passed they went to a scrap yard before any of his shooting buddies know what happened.

GoodOlBoy

[w30wcf]

The early .45-70 "Marlin Safety" black powder cartridge used small primers. At that time apparently they were concerned that the recoil might set off a large primer.

w30wcf

[Irascible]

Well, my 1895 CB certainly does recoil! As they say, "it kicks at both ends"

[Enyaw]

I would think that the center of a primer where the anvil is placed to ignite the ignition coumpound would be accessible in a large or small primer. The center is the center is the center.

Anyway I thunk those small pistol primers in the large 45/70 case are designed for the use of black powder.Of course black powder not liking to ignite in an expanding space when the primer pressure pops the bullet a head into the rifling is a concern with smokeless too.
With the black the bullet moving forward due to primer pressure lets the bullet become like a bore obstruction. In the least the black doesn't ignite well when the space is large when the primer pops the bullet forward.
Same goes with the smokeless also.

Anyway I thought the idea about using the small primer in the 45/70 was to keep the primer pressure from popping the bullet forward ahead of the powder ignition.
A firm crimp can solve that problem. Some black powder shooters don't like crimps though. Some claim they get better accuracy without the crimp.

[Bullshop]

"""I would think that the center of a primer where the anvil is placed to ignite the ignition coumpound would be accessible in a large or small primer. The center is the center is the center.""""
Yes true but if properly seated the center of the primer should be below flush with the case head. If the meplate of a bullet is smaller in diameter than the diameter of the primer pocket then it is resting on the primer. It will not have to be resting only on the center to cause ignition and if you have ever hit a primer with a hammer you will know this.
So by using a smaller diameter primer pocket allows the safe use of bullets with smaller diameter meplates where as the larger diameter primer pocket eliminates the safe use of many more bullet designs.
The only small primer pocket 45/70 cases I have seen are stamped "MAGNUM" so I don't think they were intended for black powder. The idea was to be fully certain that the bullet meplate is resting on the case head and not making any contact with the primer.

[W.R.Buchanan]

To add to what Bullshop said,, this solution was given to Buffalo Bore by Brian Pearce when they thought they had a problem with smaller Meplat boolits possibly igniting rounds in the magazine .

The small primer fixed this problem and that's why they use them.

They are in a liability position being an ammo manufacturer and as such they must take every precaution to insure the safety of their products when used in EVERYBODY'S Guns.

As far as I know they are the only outfit that does this as I don't believe that Garrett does.

It seems to work just fine and the Small Rifle Primers ignite the type of powder they use under all conditions, which is what they are going for.

It may not be necessary, but they did it anyway.

Randy

[jh45gun]

I read that article and called Marlin. The guy in customer service said don't worry about it as long as the bullet is not pointed your good to go. He did say something about a part you could by for leverlution cartridges if you shoot them in your Marlin.

[Norske]

A couple weeks ago, I had a misfire/hangfire with my Marlin 45-70. The reloaded Buffalo Bore case held a small rifle primer, a 405 gr cast bullet, and a charge of double-base powder. I dropped the hammer on the cartridge twice. When I got home, I pulled the bullet and most of the powder poured out normally, but the last thing out of the case was a chunk of what looked like charcoal. So, from now on, when I reload BB cases I'll use only single base powders and magnum small rifle primers.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I have not heard of any problem. I only load bullets with a sufficiently large meplat to avoid this potential problem for my Marlin. The Sharps gets some pointy ones that I would never load for the Marlin. They are probably too long anyway to make it through the loading gate anyway.

[JimB..]

When I pull up to the gas pump there is a warning to not use cell phones because they can ignite gasoline fumes. The fact is that this has NEVER happened, it is hypothetical and the result might be able to be produced in a lab, but the odds in the real world are below those of being struck by a meteor.

So, have there really been examples of rounds being set off in the tube by RN or FN bullets?

[indian joe]

When I pull up to the gas pump there is a warning to not use cell phones because they can ignite gasoline fumes. The fact is that this has NEVER happened, it is hypothetical and the result might be able to be produced in a lab, but the odds in the real world are below those of being struck by a meteor.

So, have there really been examples of rounds being set off in the tube by RN or FN bullets?

Question is do you want to be the one feller in a million that loses half his hand when the magazine blows off - rumour has it there have been several instances of this happening with Henry rifles at CAS shoots - I dont know - I wasnt there - but something had to start the story ???

[JimB..]

Question is do you want to be the one feller in a million that loses half his hand when the magazine blows off - rumour has it there have been several instances of this happening with Henry rifles at CAS shoots - I dont know - I wasnt there - but something had to start the story ???

With that mindset you probably shouldn’t be reloading, it seems like there have been far more kabooms from charging or powder mistakes than from this as yet unconfirmed risk. Probably should stop driving too.

Sorry if that comes across as snarky, I’m just unhappy about the state of fear in America.

[indian joe]

With that mindset you probably shouldn’t be reloading, it seems like there have been far more kabooms from charging or powder mistakes than from this as yet unconfirmed risk. Probably should stop driving too.

Sorry if that comes across as snarky, I’m just unhappy about the state of fear in America.

Yeah snarky fits ! -= please yrself - you wanna be that feller ? go for it - not my fingers - there is some perceived risk for no practical gain is the main point - no practical gain using a round nose boolit in a tube mag as compared to a flatpoint so why bother? I agree the powder mistakes way more likely to cause grief.

almost 70 and still got all me fingers and toes and never bent a set of wheels (heading for two million miles and I was not the old dude holding up traffic either!!!) - dont think I have a mindset problem - nor a fear problem.

ps google it - the henry story checks out as does some of your contention regarding 30/30 etc -------round nose boolit + federal pistol primer + dumba$$ in a hurry loads ten and drops the follower under full spring tension = kaboom!!!

[JimB..]

Yeah snarky fits ! -= please yrself - you wanna be that feller ? go for it - not my fingers - there is some perceived risk for no practical gain is the main point - no practical gain using a round nose boolit in a tube mag as compared to a flatpoint so why bother? I agree the powder mistakes way more likely to cause grief.

almost 70 and still got all me fingers and toes and never bent a set of wheels (heading for two million miles and I was not the old dude holding up traffic either!!!) - dont think I have a mindset problem - nor a fear problem.

ps google it - the henry story checks out as does some of your contention regarding 30/30 etc -------round nose boolit + federal pistol primer + dumba$$ in a hurry loads ten and drops the follower under full spring tension = kaboom!!!

Didn’t find the Henry story, but did find this old thread which included copies of an interesting article testing the effect of a mag tube detonation as well as more detailed discussion about the origin of Buffalo Bore’s use of small primers in 45-70.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?263616-lever-action-magazine-explosions

FWiW, I am a rather cautious person, and while I trail you by some 15 years I also have all my bits.

[indian joe]

Didn’t find the Henry story, but did find this old thread which included copies of an interesting article testing the effect of a mag tube detonation as well as more detailed discussion about the origin of Buffalo Bore’s use of small primers in 45-70.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?263616-lever-action-magazine-explosions

FWiW, I am a rather cautious person, and while I trail you by some 15 years I also have all my bits.


Jim
The henry detonations would be a fairly unique set of circumstances for sure and dropping the magazine follower was part of it. I got a bit touchy about the boolits I was shooting in my 1876 - that was the LEE 405 HB - when I lined them up nose to tail the nose although fairly flat would fit inside the diameter of the primer pocket - full magazine is a pound of ammo and when that lot moves there is noticeable shunting effect - plus with a 45/75 there is a bit of recoil. I took that mold and milled a touch off the nose till it was impossible for that detonation to happen - I am now totally relaxed about cranking that gun with a full magazine - it didnt hurt at all. If this was a really serious problem there would be a load of stories from the 7 million or whatever model 94's out there (most of those boolits dont have a big enough nose to prevent pushing into the primer pocket some)

[NSB]

Between Hornady making short cases and now small primers.....really screwing up a good cartridge for no good reason. They ought to call it something else so we can ignore it and keep using a good case.

[flint45]

It's just more stupid stuff to take care of a non existent problem.

[indian joe]

It's just more stupid stuff to take care of a non existent problem.

ahh ha - but theres a lot of underworked overpaid lawyers out there and their main task is to find a tiny chink in somebodys armour so they can get a payout (for that non existant problem)

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

This thread sure got off track. Wasn't the OP discussing pro/con of small primer pockets on .45-70? Disappointing.

[ghh3rd]

Well I’m still using my original 50 Starline 45-70 brass from a few years ago, and have two more unopened 50 packs. If i ever do have to order more I’ll have to be careful not to order small primer pockets.

I know that it sure is a PITA having to sort out the small 45 acp :???:

[indian joe]

This thread sure got off track. Wasn't the OP discussing pro/con of small primer pockets on .45-70? Disappointing.

Jeez Charlie you a drill sargent or somthin? its all around the percieved need (magazine detonations) or not - round nose boolits or not - big primers or lil ones - we only missed the mark with two posts and not by that much

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

I have not heard of any problem. I only load bullets with a sufficiently large meplat to avoid this potential problem for my Marlin. The Sharps gets some pointy ones that I would never load for the Marlin. They are probably too long anyway to make it through the loading gate anyway.

They can make it in the gate of the Marlin, but will not make it back out. I know, I have done this.

[evoevil]

Never had a problem with my large primers, think its a ploy. A small primer might not be as consistence as a large.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

A timely article on this topic. I hope it uploads successfully.
222554

[44Blam]

I think hollow point boolits are probably the safest.
222794

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Read the article I posted in #32. It is not the point they are necessarily concerned about. A large meplat bullet while being loaded could contact the center of the primer in the tube ahead of it. Interesting. It obviously happened as seen in the photo. I load big meplat bullets, but use very soft lead. Hope I get by.

[Char-Gar]

In a discussion, some years back, with Tim Sundles, the Buffalo Bore honcho, this topic came up. He was loading his ammo to serious thumper levels and has several Marlin leverguns come back to him with blown rounds in the mag tube. It would appear, as the rounds moved up from the tube, there was a point where the sharp edge of the bullets meplat came in contact with the primer in frot of it. With enough recoil, this could and did cause problems.

Tim's fix, was to have Star-Line make up cases with small primer pockets. This seemed to cure the problems. Star-Line refused to sell these cases to the general public, which I think is still their policy.

Whether or not a small primer is a good ideal in such a large case is another matter. For Sundles, it fixed a liability problem.