22 rimfire bullets start to finish

[MightyThor]

Since many have asked, thought I would share how I do it.

I use two sources for my cores. lead wire I bought and cores I cast from melted wheel weights. My molds are actual bullet molds with a core hole drilled in the botton of the bullet mold. Then I but the sprew cutter on the bottom. The lead wire I cut with a home made cutter my dad made or a Corbin cutter I just got. pictures hopefully will attach to this as I go.
http://byfiles.storage.live.com/y1pf4jO6cxTWa6xvYTChlaZhQrIeLLp4iqT4wVkjD21V4oYq6q eMv3qMtKkxD74xpHZGgJvmXc_O5c

After I collect all the rimfire cases I can I swage the rim off with a punch and die my dad made. now I have a jacket that has to be anealed.
http://byfiles.storage.live.com/y1pf4jO6cxTWa5_3I5Se-xeLUEo062O0gnUyuBztdvQRyAwsKuXNTRtUJoRvhEKUxcazflo _gw2okk

This last batch was anealed at a temp of 800 degrees by a friend with a oven for tempering steel etc. There are many other ways to do this step, but I like to do it in bulk. Here is what the jackets look like after heating.

http://byfiles.storage.live.com/y1pf4jO6cxTWa5U5fXIvSINsSDLg3_gNl_lCHHAZqlZB5Mffqm MWOWKX9jFnR4Zj2zVHqttOtQMaMU

I swage my cores to a uniform weight using either a Herters press or my Corbin core swage dies. The herters gives me a little bigger core diameter than my current Corbin die. the cores look like this when smooshed.
http://byfiles.storage.live.com/y1pf4jO6cxTWa5TT6zjDVpEjPbPe1jxFYYaWy7CiUi2N57K8B-BcMgWfQBUEG1n4U88BFUrQuKVRH0

It does not seem to matter weather I am using lead wire or the cast wheelweights, when I swage the cores they all end up at pretty much the same weight. The wheel weights are harder than pure lead but I have not had any trouble seating them.
http://byfiles.storage.live.com/y1pf4jO6cxTWa69fWce2p0lqIc6HqstYJDLbchQsDXP-hrOEfOT8xw7V5qnNZUl_e6oj-MdvnjNRB4
http://byfiles.storage.live.com/y1pf4jO6cxTWa5Wi6XzBczX8E6NcE81FL8z1Gxmp8s0gYQ5IIk jdoXCvwCWSiLZ6IZWIx1L03txd9o
After seating the cores I am ready to put points on them. I have used many different presses to do this. I think you can make 22 cal bullets on most any decent press. Here is a picture of my little Hollywood press making a bullet.
http://byfiles.storage.live.com/y1pf4jO6cxTWa6aGsx1u-dvflRWn13Ll0MzeJOaPwumlecr0Pd40w32KTjbcVRFWdO2SM1u xJgGFGk
I am sure there are better ways to do this but this is how I started making bullets to shoot at gophers and it works for me. Hope this helps anyone with questions.

[EMC45]

Very cool step by step! I was always curious about how exactly it was done. You have wanting to get on the lathe!

[Swagerman]

Truly remarkable thoughtful thinking to arrive at such desired results.

Great work, I'm sure you will give us more in the future as a fine bullet craftsman you are. :drinks:

The closes thing I've got to the little Hollywood press is my old Lyman All American. Wouldn't mind finding a Hollywood like that one...I can see using it for other swaging operations besides making only .22 caliber bullets.

Jim

[Bent Ramrod]

Excellent tutorial on bullet swaging, Mighty Thor, and thank you for posting it.

What is the press you are using for core seating and how are the seated cores ejected from the die on the bottom? Does the setup extend below your bench and have an ejector underneath?

[MightyThor]

Excellent tutorial on bullet swaging, Mighty Thor, and thank you for posting it.

What is the press you are using for core seating and how are the seated cores ejected from the die on the bottom? Does the setup extend below your bench and have an ejector underneath?

That particular picture shows seating the core on an older Corbin press that I just acquired. It ejects the jacket with a bottom punch that is below the picture frame. I also have seated cores in the FLL dies that are shown in the picture of the little Hollywood press. They also eject from the bottom with a very small diameter punch. I had intended to include picture of some of the bullets but forgot, will show some of the results when I get the camera out to the loading room again.

[Ricochet]

Thanks for posting this, Thor!

[Bent Ramrod]

Thanks, Mighty Thor. The adaptations of punches and dies for operation by the various presses over the years makes the mode of operation hard to recognize in a single photo sometimes.

[MightyThor]

Part of the reason I am showing different press/ die combos is because I just got my Corbin press and dies and have been playing with them rather than doing a run of bullets. I have two different bullet shapes and have been playing with core weights, core diameters, core cutting, swaging cast and cut cores, etc. Thus I didn't have one press set up for the whole process and when I got the notion to post the pictures I just took photos of what I had in it's current configuration. The Hollywood was set up for my old FLL point dies and The Corbin was set up to seat the cores. I had just plugged up the Herters core form die with something so I didn't show it making a core. I also have my grandfathers Hollywood dies but a very limited number of jackets at this time so I have not set anything up with them yet.
http://www.antiquereloadingtools.org/discus/messages/8/1640.jpg

If anyone would like pictures of one particular set up I have I would be happy to oblige.

[Slowpoke]

"If anyone would like pictures of one particular set up I have I would be happy to oblige"

How about a shot of the finished product ready to load.

[EMC45]

I am waiting too.

[454PB]

Not trying to hijack the thread, but since thor hasn't yet posted a picture of the finished project, here is what mine look like. This one has just come out of the point form die:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v16/eddard49/Formedbullet.jpg

[teddyblu]

Mighty-Thor good pics, question the seated cores look like they are close to the end of the jacket, with a 7 + oqive point up die does lead not squirt into the ejection pin hole??

keep up the good work

PART TWO.

PB454 I have a set of ted smith dies that produce a 22 cal bullet like the one you show pics of. The ejection pin hole is so large that you can only produce a open point bullet or a large hollow point if you perfer to call it, Just a observation and not a picky asss but it looks like the bullet in the pic , the point went into the ejection pin hole that caused the pig snout point.

I believe i have the last set of dies that ted smith made, he said that he quit the business and wanted to sell his equipment, and was in the business of making the the machine to re-ink printing ribbons for comp printers, but he talked himself into making me a set, only took a year.

Larry

[dale clawson]

What weight bullets does this turn out? Can you use shorts for smaller bullets? Dale

[felix]

Swaging requires exact dies for exact bullets. Not any different than making boolits. If your jacket size is different, like a smaller length, then you can make lighter bullets, assuming you can cut off the core length to match. Required pressures are too high to form the bullets and any mismatch between cores and jackets will show up as an "error". Some core metals are soft enough to bleed through an escape hatch (top of die) when too long. Otherwise, you can break the machine and/or die trying to force the bullet into shape. Some finely tuned "professional" dies cost upwards of a thousand bucks or more. ... felix

[Bent Ramrod]

Dale,

I use short shells by preference. I can make 52-53 gr bullets out of them in HP style. A couple grains heavier and the lead comes out like the photo 454PB has.

Looks ugly but it is a soft point and they don't seem to be harmed much accuracy wise. A separate nose former would be needed to smooth the nose over nice to make commercial-looking soft points; I think the money is better invested in a core swage.

Come to think of it, I've never used LR shells for jackets. There would be a gap between the top of the core and the tip of the bullet at the 50-55 gr weight, which of course shouldn't hurt anything if the core was seated squarely.

[MightyThor]

Here are pictures of the two styles of bullets I am making right now. The bullet on the left is a J4 jacket with a lead wire core. The middle bullet is the longer style, about 6.9 ogive I am guesing. The marking on the die is a little unclear. The bullet on the right is a 6 spitzer. These are all 54 grains. I have not used the 22 short but I know it can be done.
http://byfiles.storage.live.com/y1pf4jO6cxTWa5CTt_auMuihSvM50XYKJdhy8mPBe3XMFbQKWl c5RsKA-qt2CuUWDOxD63WKgx43fk

[teddyblu]

Good looking bullets thanks for the pics

Felix mentioned the price of professional dies, a set from steel is about a thousand dollars.
A set of carbide dies used by custom die makers is around 5 thousand dollars.

Larry

[MightyThor]

These dies were used, but new from corbin they are less than 300 each. I realize I am only talking about the 224 cal stuff, I am sure others are more.

[Slowpoke]

Thanks, they look good .

[454PB]

Yes, I use .22 short rimfire cases to make Hornet bullets, and they weigh 39 grains.

That "pig snout" that is left on some bullets is easily flicked off with a thumbnail, but you are right, it's not possible to make a sharp point.

[Wicky]

Good stuff Thor, I have ben wondering what to do with a heap of 22 cases! Corbin stuff is a bit hard and expensive to get hold of but after seeing the dies and reading your tutorial I reckon I can make up some dies and give it a go. Many Thanks!!!

[EMC45]

Too cool! Keep the pics coming!!! What type of accuracy is achieved by these bullets? I am very interested in all aspects of this process.

[MightyThor]

Too cool! Keep the pics coming!!! What type of accuracy is achieved by these bullets? I am very interested in all aspects of this process.


Um, Frankly I have to admit that I have not taken any of my homemades to the range so I can't tell you group size. My dad made bullets on this stuff years ago and we just load the 22 cal stuff for shooting "gophers" (Montana Richardson Ground Squirrels) They are about the same size as your grey squirrels so you want something that shoots fairly well. We have no problem hitting what we aim at and the results with the brass jackets are very dramatic.

Now that I am making my own bullets I have some loads set up but the weather here is -8 degrees and there is a blizzard outside so I won't know for sure how my stuff compares till later in the spring.

Just for Info sake, I measured my jacket forming dies and the set I use most has a die hole of .223 and a punch size of .200. That is the set with yellow paint shown above. I have others with smaller punches and smaller holes. I have not made a set for the 243 cause I did not have a rifle in that caliber. Now that I have a set of forming dies I went out and bought two 243 guns so I have a reason to make bullets.:mrgreen:

[waksupi]

MightyThor, what part of Montana are you in. I've been looking for someplace to shoot the Richardson's here. I have been going into Alberta for varminting, but wouldn't mind somewhere closer to home. They are very thick up there, but crossing the border can be a pain in the butt at times.

[MightyThor]

MightyThor, what part of Montana are you in. I've been looking for someplace to shoot the Richardson's here. I have been going into Alberta for varminting, but wouldn't mind somewhere closer to home. They are very thick up there, but crossing the border can be a pain in the butt at times.

I'm down here in Great Falls. Got yer Sorrels on yet?

[waksupi]

I'm down here in Great Falls. Got yer Sorrels on yet?


Yup. Went fishing on Saturday. It was... brisk?....yes,.... brisk... that would be the word for it. You could tell who had good boots, by how long they could stay on the ice. We made it til noon.

[MT Gianni]

Ric, Did you drag anything noteworthy up? I have been on small trout on my trips out [-16"] Gianni

[MightyThor]

Are you kidding, with the wind that was blowing here on Saturday he probably had to send an Anchor down just to stay on the ice.

[waksupi]

Are you kidding, with the wind that was blowing here on Saturday he probably had to send an Anchor down just to stay on the ice.


I'll start an icefishing topic, and give this one back to the originator!

[MtJerry]

Mighty Thor,

I am just outside of Great Falls, your set-up for making jacketed boolits is interesting.

We may have to get together for a up of coffee.

Jerry

[wonderwolf]

Reading a while back in PS magazine somebody was making full dies that were said to be good up to 150,000 cases if I remember right and cost about $160....Now I just have to sort through 20 years of magazines to find that issue again (was a recent issue though rest assured) :Fire:

[ofreen]

Too cool! Keep the pics coming!!! What type of accuracy is achieved by these bullets? I am very interested in all aspects of this process.

RF jacketed bullets are capable of sub-MOA accuracy.

[georgeld]

Thor: man, those are great pics, and the size's I've been trying to learn for a long time.

Thank you guys for posting all this good stuff.

Thor: pm coming shortly.

[yeahbub]

Wonderwolf, that info would be greatly appreciated. I wanted to get a set of dies for RF bullets from Sport-Flite, but can't find them. Anyone know what became of them anf if their dies are still available?

[wonderwolf]

I'll try and drag up that issue, I think its towards the top of the stack as I wanted to keep it close.

I'm seriously thinking about getting into this hardcore. I have a great source for soft lead and unlimited jackets (trash cans full). I have nice big clumps of down time that I can use for making bullets instead of reloading my 5 gal bucket of .44mag all the time :Fire:

I would like to attempt making my own dies first. Hard part would be the bullet shape. As you could run the case through a lee push through to true it up if its just oversized.

My big Q is does it matter what manufactures of case you use. Say federal bulk pack, wolf match and some winchester wildcat? Is there a significant differance in these?

[MightyThor]

Frankly if you are just doing what I am (making bullets to throw down range) you don't really need to worry about what case you have. If you want to make Bench Rest bullets you probably want to sort stuff. I have found the cases to be fairly consistent or at least not particularly inconsistent between batches and brands. Once and a while I will get a long jacket or some other sort of anomaly and since you are doing this all by hand you just end up pulling that one out along with some sort of plan to "test" it later. You can "size" your bullets after pointing them but I would rather not have to so I went looking for a new die that made them dead on and am very satisfied with the Corbin and non corbin I ended up with. I have two different kind of Herter's sizers and they do tend to change the tip of the bullet while sizing. this is sometimes a good thing. A push through die would do as well I imagine.

[wonderwolf]

Has anybody run into problems with firing pin strikes swagging out to cracks in the Jacket?

[yarro]

Yes, If the case was struck by the firing pin very hard when fired the jackets seem to develop cracks sometimes or all the time depending on the batch of cases.

-Yarro

[Bullshop]

With jacketed bullets you want to avoid sizing down. When you swage bullets you only size up. Only sizing up keeps the jacket pressed tightly against the core. If you size down the jacket and core will sometimes sepperate due to spring back of the jacket. That bit of sepperation between jacket and core does nothing good for accuracy.
I think the only way to avoid sepperation is to bond the core to the jacket.
BIC/BS

[georgeld]

Bullshop:
Will that happen even with annealed jackets first?
seems if they're dead soft, they wouldn't spring back any.

I've wondered about putting a drop of something sticky in first. Then it would
squirt up along side and glue the core and jackets. Not sure what to use though.
Maybe long setting time epoxy. Can't be much of it or it'd make a mess in the pointing
die. Be worth playing with though just to learn what it might do.

Some yrs ago I got a batch from a maker in MT. MHG I think it was, recently got a few hundred from an old shooting buddy that died in Nov that he got from the same source. They're all brands of jackets. Smooth/slick jackets and well polished.
I do like the ring on Thor's sample's though. Don't matter to me in a NEF. Once they're made, will polish 'em some anyway.


Has anyone tried this sort of thing??

[Bullshop]

I am really not sure about how the soft jacket compaires to the soft core as to spring back. I know that in sizing boolits cast of alloy there is some spring back, but in pure lead there is none. I have not played with brass enough to know, YET.
BIC/BS

[georgeld]

I picked up a box of swaged Speer??? soft lead .45 bullets on a trade afew months ago.
When loading them and crimping the case mouth springs back and the slug will fall in or out
of the case. Sure made a mess of things and wasted the time.

Have decided to save those for my bp single shot as it does a better job of shooting slugs
than rb's.

[Single Shot]

I am lucky enough to have this IDEAL bullet mold.

6397

When I can, I'll try making RF jacket bullets with the tip slightly exposed to see if I can end up with pointed bullet.

This will be added to my AK-74 brass project but I will post the bullet here.

As cast that bullet is 50 grains. So I should be able to make a jacketed bullet with the same weight as the Wolf Military Classic.

[MightyThor]

Although I am sure that the core may have shifted some from sizing these bullets down, I don't know if I am very concerned about core movement or whatever during bullet flight. By swaging down, I have reduced the volume of the jacket with the same amount of lead. I suspect thing in there are still tight enough that the bullet is gonna go down range. I would suspect though that having changed the shape after the initial formation, I may have introduced an imbalance that will adversely impact accuracy. Then again, I can't shoot straight so a bullet that turns might be a boon to me.

[melw]

Wonderwolf
Any luck finding this info?
Thanks
Mel W.

Reading a while back in PS magazine somebody was making full dies that were said to be good up to 150,000 cases if I remember right and cost about $160....Now I just have to sort through 20 years of magazines to find that issue again (was a recent issue though rest assured) :Fire:

[wonderwolf]

Wonderwolf
Any luck finding this info?
Thanks
Mel W.

I started looking last night, got through about 2 years of issues before I passed out for the night. Its slow going....open up a issue find something neat...that I didn't see the first time...read it...find something else....so on, so forth and such like.

[georgeld]

Thor:
Digging thru my bullet box the other night for .224s and found one I didn't
recognize. Was comparing your's to MHG's and factory.

This one is stright walled then straight taper, not rounded at all. both shapes
are straight sided.

Made a jacket swaging did body the other day, tried to mount it today and it's
too short for the press! Am trying to conserve the threaded drill rod I had a buddy
thread for me for this project and cut it too short. Will figure out a way to turn it in yet.
Made another today, but, while drilling it my back gave out. Lasted til just about an
hour ago. Been floating around here five feet off the deck on pills all day and still
hurting. Friday am supposed to go in for a nerve block to the lower back. THis back
surgery battle since sept '05 has been tough.

You guys that have good backs and knee's, take care of 'em, you sure don't want to
end up like I've been lately.

[Bullshop]

If ya want a die to swage the rim off 22 rf cases just get ya a Lee .224" sizer die. Then all ya have to do is turn a bit off the punch until a case will slip over it. Works good.
BIC/BS

[wonderwolf]

If ya want a die to swage the rim off 22 rf cases just get ya a Lee .224" sizer die. Then all ya have to do is turn a bit off the punch until a case will slip over it. Works good.
BIC/BS

I was thinking the same thing believe it or not. Mic the ID of the cases and turn down the punch. There is a metric drill size that is .2244 and if I can find or make some all thread I would like to try making some prototype dies. I would think that a bevel on the punch and on the ID of the die would help roll the rim right off of the cast.

[MightyThor]

My jackets are a little less than 224 so I don't have any trouble gettin them in the Core seater die. That die is at .224 and when you seat the core it also expands the jacket ever so slightly creating a nice close fit between jacket and core. dont know if this all that critical, but Corbin talks about it and at this point I will assume he knows more about it than I do. I do know that with the bigger hole I end up with the little ring around the base of the jacket. I dont mind that, but some do.

[georgeld]

Thor: you've got a several days old pm sitting there.

Looking at the samples you so kindly sent me.
The bullets still have a radiused edge, that's great for seating. Much better than full
sharp edge's on some flat based bullets.
I think the ring around the jacket might help clean out the bore too.

Only thing I'm concerned about is some of the swaged jackets have scratches lengthwise
on them. I've done that on sizing dies, and once on carbide RCBS die and had to send it
in for polishing. That one I know was caused by a dirty case that I didn't catch in time.
I get to thinking about other things when doing these long runs sometimes and miss
a dirty one. That's why I check all case's with a light before seating bullets in. Not often
but, I have caught an empty in the loading block.

Do you polish the bullets as a last step? IF so, how?
Thanks much,

[Greebe]

Thor,

Thanks for the great info. I sent you an email with a few more questions about the actual dies. Let me know if it got to you allright.

Thanks again,
Greebe

[MightyThor]

Thor:

Only thing I'm concerned about is some of the swaged jackets have scratches lengthwise
on them.

Do you polish the bullets as a last step? IF so, how?
Thanks much,

The jackets were run through a die with untold thousand of previous passes, they are no doubt scratched. Truthfully, for years we just made em and shot em, didn't really worry about looks or sub minute stuff.

To polish them I just throw them in my case cleaner and let it run over night.

[georgeld]

Thor:
Looking at what you've sent me and reading the last thread or one before about over heating the jackets making scale on them. How hot are you heating them? It's possible the coloration I'm seeing might be fine scale.

Wish I had a pound or so of fine steel shot and some polish with rcbs wet media I'm told is the trick to fine polish things. I just got a box of brass from a guy on abt that's polished up so pretty it's a shame to load 'em up. This is what he use's to shine them up with in a rolling bucket set up. since it's wet, he just rinse's them off and the fine stuff runs thru a screen. The excess water is poured off once it's settled. Don't think he even puts any polish in it. Need to verify that part though.

Am wondering if scale from brass would scratch a bore. Anyone know first hand?

I talked one of the guys into making a few test bullets for me to try the Varmint Grenade design in home made's. 30gr core, big open space above. Just got 'em today. Need to load 'em and see what they'll do on paper, then go try a few on p'dogs.

Has anyone else tried these short core's yet? IF so, what did you learn other than they're mighty hard to form without folds in the upper jackets?

Once I shoot 'em, I'll give a report. I don't have a camera now, brought a "date" home for play times just before Christmas and damned if she didn't steal my camera. I can measure them and compare to 40gr v max and 55gr Rem's to give an idea.

Sure do appreciate this member making them for me to try.

[454PB]

I've made some using .22 short cases, they ended up 39 grains. There is no problem with the nose of the jacket folding over. and other than die adjustment, they are no more trouble or work than the 60 grainers.

[georgeld]

Out of nearly half bucket full I've found three, yes THREE
shorts so far.

Weighed this batch of samples today.
16-40gr +- .2
76--39.5gr
8--38.5
1-38gr

One with jacket torn and over lapped around the tip.
One with a PIPE tip where the jacket went up into the lead bleed hole I think.
and two with angled tip's.

Impressive quality for the first batch of a trial run I feel.
Am quite thankful for the sample's and look fwd to test firing them. Storm is brewing
and the wind blew again today. Hope to get out there in the next few days.

[MightyThor]

Out of nearly half bucket full I've found three, yes THREE
shorts so far.

Weighed this batch of samples today.
16-40gr +- .2
76--39.5gr
8--38.5
1-38gr

One with jacket torn and over lapped around the tip.
One with a PIPE tip where the jacket went up into the lead bleed hole I think.
and two with angled tip's.

Impressive quality for the first batch of a trial run I feel.
Am quite thankful for the sample's and look fwd to test firing them. Storm is brewing
and the wind blew again today. Hope to get out there in the next few days.

The Majority of the difference in those bullets was jacket related. I did not sort jackets, I just seated cores and swaged the ends. The pipe tips (there were actually 3) were the result of the initial Die setup. I ran the die down till I found the max closure point, (thus the pipe tip) and then backed off till it was about right. I figured I might as well send everything. That fold over happens occasionally, and is usually related to heat treat issues, but may also be because of splits or other jacket issues.

This batch of jackets was heat treated to 800 degrees by a friend using his heat treat oven and a stainless pouch. There should be little or no scale on them. If you want to polish a few to see how they would come out. You could just rub them around in your hand with a bit of ajax, and then follow up with regular toothpaste then wash them off. Lets face it, any abrasive will polish them. The finer the abrasive the shinier they will be. I have used scotchbrite, sandpaper, walnut shells, Garnet, car rubbing compound, you name it.

[454PB]

When I first started making these, I had a lot of the "folded nose" problems, which was mostly caused by failure to anneal the jackets. Rather than throw them away, I put them in a "blem" box. I then loaded a bunch of the blems, and surprisingly they shot as well as the "keepers". I also experimented with sorting by case headstamp on the jackets, weighing of each bullet, cleaned and uncleaned, and the same thing happened. I never shot a group over 1" at a hundred with any of the less than perfect bullets.

[MightyThor]

When I first started making these, I had a lot of the "folded nose" problems, which was mostly caused by failure to anneal the jackets. Rather than throw them away, I put them in a "blem" box. I then loaded a bunch of the blems, and surprisingly they shot as well as the "keepers". I also experimented with sorting by case headstamp on the jackets, weighing of each bullet, cleaned and uncleaned, and the same thing happened. I never shot a group over 1" at a hundred with any of the less than perfect bullets.

I have had the same results. Course it may be a regional phenomenon, we're only 76 miles apart:drinks:

[EMC45]

Has anyone thought of using a flux inside the case? I saw an article by Mr. Corbin and he talked of wiping the lead cores with a flux and inserting them in the cases. Then he fired the batch on a piece of fire brick with a torch enough to get the lead liquid. Then he let them cool and presto! He had a bonded core bullet. Anyone try this yet?

[MightyThor]

I have tried the bonded core on the brass jackets and the trick is to have the inside clean so that the lead will stick. Frankly it was way to much effort for what I would consider as a pointless result. Core retention might be important for hunting bullets where you are looking for expansion and penetration. On the 22 cal stuff I have been interested in fragmentation and some reasonable accuracy. Interesting experiment but then I went back to mass production.

[454PB]

Bonding cores might be useful with larger caliber hunting bullets, but I think it's a waste of time and energy with a 55 grain .22 caliber hollowpoint. Like Thor said, these are varmint bullets.

[georgeld]

Thor:
Since I only have two rifles and both are .223's. Decided to spread the 39.5gr around a little further. Mailed 20 each to three friends that promised to load test them.
One has a 9" twist. Told him to fire the first five at 25yds to confirm whether they spun
apart or not. No use wasting them if they don't reach 100yd paper, right?

Don't know what my NEF twist is, but, the Sako is 14".

As long as the core is long enough to reach the start of the curve they won't move.
They're locked in place.
Now these 30gr core's might be a little short, but, even they look like they reach far
enough. and you've compressed them tight enough I don't think they're loose.

I need to get the dies made so I can make 'em myself. One more project then I'll be
freed up. Go in Wed for a nerve block to my back. Once I get over that and the weather
lets up. Need to finish putting a new roof on the old camp trl so it can be used.
After that, it's lathe time, I hope.

Thanks again Thor. Let me know what and when ok?

[MightyThor]

Several have asked about the jacket forming die (the one painted yellow) that my dad made and so here is some info on it. It is a two piece deal (three if you count the lock ring) The die itself is smaller and is threaded into the 7/8 threaded piece from the bottom. You can see the parting line between the two pieces in the picture.
The die is belled at the opening and then tapered to the finish part of the die[ That portion is at the top of the die, about 1/4 of an inch in length and polished. That smaller die part is hard steel. The 7/8 thread is not hard. the die is a push through type and for years was set up on a RCBS A2. I found that it worked well for me on the hollywood. I run one case after another and the first is pushed free of the die by the next jacket. I have a bin with a lid that catches the jackets as they "pop" free from the top of the die

[wonderwolf]

Found the article and its made a liar out of me...I'm sorry but I was mistaken in the price as I was recalling it from memory.

Core swage $80
Core seat $80
Point form $150

This is located in a May 2007 issue of Precision Shooting. His name is Larry Blockmon PM me for his phone number if interested. I just don't like posting other ppls #'s on the forums

his dies are steel and he claims to have them last up towards 50,000 rounds...should be enough to sell what you make and buy some Corbin dies. Athough CH dies might be cheaper? But I'm not sure on their specifications

[hornsurgeon]

thanks for the walkthru. i have just started making the various dies myself now.

[wonderwolf]

thanks for the walkthru. i have just started making the various dies myself now.

You have my attention now...post pics if you could. pretty please :drinks:

[hornsurgeon]

i've only made a jacket making die set. next will be the core seater, then the nose former.

[wonderwolf]

i've only made a jacket making die set. next will be the core seater, then the nose former.

What did you use? I'm thinking about doing the lee with the push through turned down on the lathe.

[Wicky]

MightyThor, thanks for the updates and to all the rest of you who have made this a lot clearer. I'm about to organise myself (big task:mrgreen:) and start on making some dies.

[btrapr1]

I am curoius about the yellow dies used in this thread.

First does this set-up cut the rim off or just push it out? How does the die mount in a press? like it is sitting in the pic? if so does the bullet ride up through it or down from the top (as pictured). Do yopu think the 224 sizer would work? making the rod undersized...

*If possible can you take anouther pic of the yellow set...simply placing it on the table top and line it up like it would go through...I am trying to figure out how I get a freind of mine make me a set.

:confused:I am thinking about getting a blank die and step drilling it down and then making a lapping rod and trying my hand at a cheap bullet die set... ANY advise ehre would also be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

[georgeld]

You can contact Lee direct and request bullet sizing dies in most sizes.
THen you'd only need to make the pins.

Thor: got waylaid again on the bullet tests. Weather, 4" snow again today.
plus, Dad's car was stolen last night. So----------------!!

[MightyThor]

I am curoius about the yellow dies used in this thread.

First does this set-up cut the rim off or just push it out? How does the die mount in a press? like it is sitting in the pic? if so does the bullet ride up through it or down from the top (as pictured). Do yopu think the 224 sizer would work? making the rod undersized...

*If possible can you take anouther pic of the yellow set...simply placing it on the table top and line it up like it would go through...I am trying to figure out how I get a freind of mine make me a set.

:confused:I am thinking about getting a blank die and step drilling it down and then making a lapping rod and trying my hand at a cheap bullet die set... ANY advise ehre would also be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

The die and punch push the rim out by stretching the case. The die mounts in the press by threading in the top where the normal die goes. the punch slides into a RCBS universal shellholder and it pushes the case all the way through the die.

Can't take any pictures for a while cause my shop got taken over by my son's boy scout troop. We are building 8 sea kayaks and my reloading shop will be a boat shop until May or June. These things are so cool, they are 17 feet long, made of plywood, epoxy and fiberglass and handtools. The kids are doing a great job and a weeklong trip to Canada is planned for the end of the project where we will live out of the boats while we paddle through 5 interconnected lakes. In the mean time I picked up a 222 and an 06 so I have a reason to look forward to reloading.http://byfiles.storage.live.com/y1pf4jO6cxTWa5st8voCwg-K_CBr_sV_V1QTMsvIJGmvziCCy5QfWXrl0t-xPoVDaaWJy-Qv0fDcWQ

[garandsrus]

MightyThor,

The boats do look cool! Where did you get the plans for them?

John

[MightyThor]

Chesapeak Light Craft, (CLC) this is their Chesapeak 17 foot Kayak.

[Rat-Man]

I am curoius about the yellow dies used in this thread.

First does this set-up cut the rim off or just push it out? How does the die mount in a press? like it is sitting in the pic? if so does the bullet ride up through it or down from the top (as pictured). Do yopu think the 224 sizer would work? making the rod undersized...


Thanks in advance

I can save you some trouble with this. The de-rimming die needs to be a little smaller than the .224 final diameter, otherwise the jacket will spring back and be to big to go in the core seating die.
I measured my set last night and the hole thru the die part is .217 and the pushrod that pushes it thru is .195. After shoving the .22 case thru the die the rim is ironed out and the case streches out to about .703 in length.
The new jacket springs out and measures about .219 that will go in the core seating die and when the core is seated it expands the whole thing to .224.
This is from the now out of business Sport-Flite set that I bought quite a few years ago.

Rat-Man

[MightyThor]

I can save you some trouble with this. The de-rimming die needs to be a little smaller than the .224 final diameter, otherwise the jacket will spring back and be to big to go in the core seating die.
I measured my set last night and the hole thru the die part is .217 and the pushrod that pushes it thru is .195. After shoving the .22 case thru the die the rim is ironed out and the case streches out to about .703 in length.
The new jacket springs out and measures about .219 that will go in the core seating die and when the core is seated it expands the whole thing to .224.
This is from the now out of business Sport-Flite set that I bought quite a few years ago.

Rat-Man

Ratman, does your jacket end up smooth or is there still a little crease where the rim was? My die is .220 and punch is about the same as yours. I end up with a little ring around the base of the bullet which so far has been no issue for me, but several have asked why it is not smooth. I don't expect to shoot bench rest with my bullets so I have not really experimented with working the rim all the way out. Just seeking info for future.

[Rat-Man]

Thor,

As long as the punch is in good shape, I have worn out the tip of one, you can see where the rim was but there is no ridge there. I do however usually see exactly where the firing pin smashed the brass and compressed it a small amount.
I will try to attach a picture tonight of one of the jackets with a fresh punch that has not been worn down.

Rat-Man

[Rat-Man]

As promised here are the pictures showing the results of the measurements that I gave earlier today.

This first picture is when everything is the correct size.

http://webpages.charter.net/wescoleman55/castboolits/boolits.jpg

Next is the worn stem along with the new one I built from 1/4 dill rod. I think that you will be able to see the worn area near the tip on the bottom punch.

http://webpages.charter.net/wescoleman55/castboolits/stems.jpg

This is what the bullets look like when the punch is worn and the rim is not completely removed.

Like someone else has already said the ring is really just a looks issue, the bullets seem to shoot the same regardless of what they look like within reason of course.

http://webpages.charter.net/wescoleman55/castboolits/stemworn.jpg

[teddyblu]

Ratman you mentioned that after core seating the size was .224

does 224 go into the point up die and come out .224?

I just finished a .243 and a .308 set, course they use commerical jackets.

thanks for the answer

Larry

[Rat-Man]

TeddyBlu,

Yes, after core seating the bottom 2/3 - 3/4 of the bullet length is .224 with the rest of the nose area still at .219. This goes into the point up die that is about .2245 as close as I can measure it and the ogive of the bullet point is formed.

Most of the ogive is the empty space in the nose that doesn't have lead in it. I have started pushing the bullet farther into the point up die and that pushes the lead all the way to the end of the jacket. This has allowed me to be able to shoot these in my AR without the jacket point being deformed by hitting the feed ramp.

I have noticed that doing this the bullet now comes out at .2245 best I can measure from the point forming die. They still shoot great this may not be the way a real bullet smith would do it, but it works for me.

Rat-Man

[georgeld]

How's your accuracy with them?

[teddyblu]

Rat-Man

thanks that is what I wanted to know

Larry

[Southern Son]

Rat-Man,
thanks for the description of your dies and the way you do this. As I have posted elsewhere on this site, I have never actually seen any of this done and I have often wondered how the soft non-springy lead core is swaged into the springy copper jacket. But your description seems to say that the lead core is forced into the undersized jacket, expanding the jacket, thus the spring in the jacket is working towards holding the lead in place. Rather than crush the jacket down around the lead, the core forces the jacket to expand. I had no idea that was how it was done, and now I fully understand how the other blokes are getting .25 caliber bullets with .22 long rifle cases. Once again, thanks for the posting.

Ron.

[Rat-Man]

Georgeld,

They shoot fine in the AR. I haven't done a lot of accuracy testing in the AR yet I hope to do some this spring. So far it seems to be 3-4 inched with iron sites at 100 yards, this a alot better that some of the Remington bulk bullets that I have tried in the past. Those Remington in my gun were at least 6-8 inches, it looked like you shot the target with a shotgun and buckshot.

I have a scoped Ruger .223 that I have had very good results with. 1-1/2 to 2 inches at 100 yards. This gun shoots about 1 inch groups with its favorite load that I found so far, a 55 grain Hornady SP under 25.9 grains of Win 748 powder.

So these bullets are not target grade, but then again I only have my time making them as an expense. I made a 3 cavity core mold from some scrap aluminum and cast cores of soft lead from scrap.

I am pretty sure if I bought J4 jackets and used those instead I could equal or better the factory bullets but I bought these dies to have cheep blasting bullets that allow me to shoot alot with only the primer and powder expense.

Even at current prices for a .223 this amounts to about 9 cents a round, I am very pleased with these bullets when I go to the store and see .223 at 45 cents a round.

Rat-Man

[jameslovesjammie]

If people have used 22 short cases to make 39 grain bullets, has anyone used 22 mag cases to make a 69 grain? I think the mag cases are thicker copper. Could they be used to make a bullet that could go faster without coming apart at higher velocities? Or cut down to make the same thing at a lesser grain?

[Rat-Man]

James,

I have save a few cases to try that in the future but they would have to be trimmed to fit in my dies for sure. I bet around 65 grains would be the max for my die set.

I have not had any problem with these bullets disintegrating in flight at the max speed I have pushed them about 3200 fps. If you stick them in a .220 Swift or 224 Weatherby Magnum it may become a problem, I will never have that issue because I don't own a gun in anything like that.

[georgeld]

SSon:
Done right, the cases are not springy.
They need to be annealed in the oven til dead soft.
Then they're equal to soft lead.

Ratman:
IF you're not getting any better accuracy than that. AND you ARE a better shooter.
Then you're using the wrong bullet/s wt in that barrel.

Get the twist figured out, run a tight patch down the barrel, measure the distance on your rod between start and one full turn. That will give the twist rate.

THEN you'll know what bullet wts to use. Re: 12-14:1==55-60gr max wt. Faster than 10" the heavier/longer you need to use.

These are just general tips ok? My 14:1 will put 40gr v max into one hole all day. 55's to about half inch. Heavier? I wouldn't know, never tried 'em cause that's what a barrel maker told me.

35gr, good to 200yds, then THEY lose control and scatter all over the hillside.

Good luck, hope this helps you guys.

[btrapr1]

Thanks for all of the great information.

Looks like I now have ANOTHER expensive hobby, well at least getting started:coffee:

[wonderwolf]

Any word on the magnum cases working or not? I'm looking to invest in a full set of dies but wanna know if I can make heavier bullets or not. I shoot a lot of longer range stuff and if I can make a 70gr bullet (boat tail?) I could practice without using my actual match bullets. Or I could just make my own match bullets if I did things right.

[georgeld]

No reason they wouldn't. All you need to do is make sure the final OD is correct.
Though all the .22mags I've read about have been used for .24 or 25 cal stuff.

I did pick up about 50 or so today at the range, first I've seen in yrs.

[wonderwolf]

My concern was with the wall thickness and resulting ID of the jacket if one could be formed using the same plunger?