Can a rifle shoot well without the bullet touching the lands?

[u_235]

I have a 5 groove longbranch that I am loading 314299s in, and wanted to know opinions on the importance of seating out to the lands with cast boolits. I have them seated out to a little below the middle lube groove and no lands yet. In fact putting a bullet in an unsized case and chambering will not even drive the bullet far enough in to put the gas check into the neck all the way.
Was wondering what my chances are of getting the to shoot to its potential, or if it is a lost cause. I may get some 245 grain 300 blackout bullets and patch them, as they should be long enough to get into the lands.

[jimb16]

What size are the boolits? Sounds like they have been squeezed down too much.

[GhostHawk]

A What size is the bore, not the smallest dimension, the largest.

B what size bullets?

Ideally bullets should be cast/sized 1 or 2 thousands bigger.
They don't necessarily have to touch the rifling when chambered.
But they do need to fit right.

[BruceB]

In the long load-development effort for the M1A (.308/7.62 NATO), which extended for thousands of rounds in ten-cartridge batches, ALL the bullets were not touching the lands.

This is due to my belief that absolutely free chambering is essential in this rifle (and the M1 Garand). I will tolerate no rifling contact or other impediment to the easy chambering of a new round.

The accuracy received from this rifle was and is superb, in my opinion.

The thread (thirteen pages long) is a sticky on the "CB Loads/ Military Rifles" forum.

[Gtek]

First I would (Micrometer) boolits, I have a bunch of Lyman's and just because it say's 314299 means? Fired case neck ID minus .002", that's your boolits allowable behind. Now you need to figure out nose diameter needed. Landing the nose in lands of cast is common for alignment purposes in preventing yaw in launch cycle increasing accuracy potential. Alloy and temp poured changes can help/played with if needed. You did say Longbranch, if you have one with a tight throat you found the needle in the haystack. Have you tried inverting bullet in an unprimed/powdered case and chambering? A sized neck with a long "J" flipped chambered works well sometimes. Will give you a length to that bullet base OD in throat. I would bet you are going to need a little more in the nose department. May I kindly suggest figuring your throat and barrel dimensions first then go hunting the correct dimension molds. I learned a long time ago the buggy goes down the trail a whole lot easier with the horse out front. 13 post, and welcome aboard.

[u_235]

The bullets are .314 from the bullshop Bore is just under .314 groove diameter, and was pitted and rusty. The throat is .316 so it is really shot out. Any boolit much bigger will require me to turn my case necks. The rifle shoots better than I expected, but I was wondering how much is left on the table with this long of a throat with cast bullets. I have a lot of experience with jacketed rifle, and have a Tikka T3 in 308 that shoots well under 1/2 moa with bullets nowhere near the lands. But shooting cast in old ratty military rifles is new to me, and many tell me lead bullets need to be very close to the lands to obtain best results.
Was looking for experiences on just how important this is for cast to shoot up to its full potential, for what it is it shoots better than it should with the bullets I am using.

[runfiverun]

try it.
the 314299 don't even come close to touching in my argies either, but 16 grs of 2400 makes the holes quite close together on the paper.

[Gtek]

Some of the "old ratty military rifles" can be a challenge/impossible for proper boolits. I have some J shooters that run at .010" off and some over .040" due to magazine lengths. I shoot boolits that are pushed in barrel .060" ahead of case. Every rifle is a different story from when it was made to the life it has had, and what they like can only really be found in experimenting with it. Jump being on the list is only one of the MANY variables to start knocking at full potential. The harder the boolit the greater the pressure spike, touching lands pushes up some more and doing so with "J"'s can/will take you into danger land. Have you tried touching in Tikka for dimension and loading six rounds shorter at .010", six more rounds at .020", six more rounds at .030" off. You may have a 1/4 MOA rifle with that load. Some pipes really respond, some no response. If your happy with it where it is, enjoy it as is. Dimensionally challenged throats and necks can and will make you crazy in the Boolit game.

[Safeshot]

Would it be a good approach to ream the chamber neck area .001" or .002" larger than the loaded cartridge neck diameter, with a cast bullet loaded that WILL fill the throat and will touch (or nearly touch) the lands? Just an idea. If the barrel throat is very worn, there may not be too many ways to achieve accuracy.

[303Guy]

I can load .318 boolits into fired cases. It could be that your cases have fairly hard necks and are springing back quite a lot. Mine were paper patched so no expansion room required. Well, very little. If the loaded round had resistance in the neck to chambering pressure did increase - at least I assume it was those that had higher pressure. If the boolit base is within the neck then no riveting can occur on the boolit base but the shank that spans the case mouth to the throat entry can rivet if the alloy is soft enough and the powder fast enough burning. Fast powders can place quite high pressure in the neck area yet show little pressure on the primer. I think that is where the mid shank riveting comes from (but not sure).

[u_235]

I think I will anneal a batch of cases and try some paper patched 308 rounds. It shoots much better than you would expect from the condition of her bore, but I am sure with some tinkering there is room for improvement. I am gonna try to get a better measurement of the throat today.

[nhrifle]

I shoot that exact boolit in my No4 Mk1. My rifle saw many parts of the world and a good deal of hard use before it came to live with me. The bore is dark and a bit frosty and when I first got it, accuracy with anything other than jacketed was unattainable. I almost gave up, but another shooter told me of the Lyman 314299, so I bought the mould, and while awaiting its arrival crowned the barrel, treated the bore with Bore Butter, and replaced the bolt head to correct excess headspace. The mould arrived, I cast some, and lo and behold my Enfield began to shoot respectably! In fact I used that rifle exclusively for a season of High Power shooting, during which I was able to place well and won a fair number of matches. I never have slugged the bore, cast the chamber, checked the leade free bore, or tried to make the boolits touch the rifling when a round is chambered. I seat them to the crimp groove and call it good.

[10x]

Shoot as large a bullet as will chamber in your 303 - see how well it shoots from a clean bore.
Also some 303s have 60 years of copper fouling - clean out the copper with household ammonia.
This may well allow you to see 50 years of the result of corrosive ammo.
Bottom line, see how it shoots.

[Larry Gibson]

u 235

To say that in rifles with long throats, milsurps especially, a bullet of such design as the 314299 which does not reach the lands/leade and leaves a lot of that long nose unsupported in any manor in the throat will shoot good goes against the hard and fast "fit is king" rule. I have always said that rule is not as hard and fast as some think. What we have here is a prime example that "fit is not king". Of course the 314299 will shoot "good" under such conditions. However, wit will not provide the best accuracy nor will can it be pushed as hard to higher velocity with accuracy as some cast bullets that do fit the throat.

So that answer depends on what your definition of "shoot to it's potential" is. If "potential" means just precision (as in good groups) then yes the 314299 can do that. If you mean precision and accuracy at higher velocity then there are better designs for that.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

A straight start to the rifling is where it starts. Boolit jump is not as important. Many guns will shoot BR groups without being near rifling. A mistake is to expand a boolit into uneven throats that are eroded, your best bet is to skip across.
I am willing to bet most cast shooters have terrible run out in their loads, then think the gun will straighten out the boolit. Roll some rounds across a flat table and just watch boolit wobble, then worry about touching the rifling.
.002" run out is the maximum for jacketed but I will guess most cast shooters will have well over .020" and much more. Start crooked and shoot crooked. Bad run out can engrave rifling on a bore ride but you can see it when rifling marks are different on each side of the nose. I know all of you have seen that but thought nothing of it, the boolit will get straight. If Jacketed will not turn straight, how do you expect lead to turn to alignment?
It would be nice to have a new barrel and chamber but it is not to be. It amazes me how many toss good loading procedures with cast and forget basics.
The amount of junk made special for cast has made millions when nothing special is needed, just basics.

[texassako]

I have been loading many different designs in my long throated M28-76 Mosin for the last year, and not even a long 235 gr boolit has been able to touch the lands. I asked the experts here at the beginning including some of those posting above, and it was pretty much a consensus to fit the throat. I have found that as long as the first band is touching the throat and the nose gets as close to the lands as it can, it does not matter that the nose is not in the lands. This means I am shooting a .313 sized boolit down a .308 groove diameter rifle, and the best design has been the NOE 311331 with its' really long bore riding round nose and only 2 bands at the base. If I don't seat the bore riders to touch the throat for guidance, accuracy is poor. The Loverin designs were not quite as good as the bore riders seated touching the throat, but also were not affected by not touching the throat. The long body of these was still in the neck a good ways for guidance.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I personally just load these (311299) to the crimp groove and then use a Roll Crimp to secure the boolit in place.

These are bore rider boolits meaning that the nose of the boolit is already in the bore/lands of the barrel. This boolit is designed this way to minimize the amount of wobble that the boolit has before it establishes itself in the bore as it travels down the bore.

Once the driving bands are pushed into the rifling,, Where ever the centerline of the boolit is in relation to the center line of the bore at that point,,, is where it will be when it leaves the barrel.

If that turns out to be perfect alignment then theoretically the boolit should go where it is aimed. Obviously there will be other influences, however the purpose of seating a bullet near the lands is to minimize this specific misalignment.

With a Spitzer type bullet, this may well be significant. With a Bore Rider boolit it won't unless it is too big to begin with.

In the case of this particular style of boolit the alignment is fixed and is contingent only on the Diameter of the "bore riding portion" in relation to the diameter of the actual bore.

I have a NOE version of 311299 that drops Boolits of WW material at .2997 and the bore on my 03A3 is .300 on the nose. It doesn't get much closer than that. I had a Lyman 311299 that dropped the same material at .296, but that mould was designed for Linotype, and probably would have been very close with that material. Point of this is that with a nose of .2997 there can be almost zero misalignment to the bore with these boolits as it takes at least .0002 for clearance to go into the hole in the first place.

The point of all this is you can't really seat this boolit just short of the lands simply because it should be smaller than the bore dia. of your barrel and be well into the lands anyway, hence the term "Bore Rider."

I realize that you said 314299 and I have a Lyman 314299 and it drops the nose portion at .302. This boolit will engage the rifling and unless I come up with a way to size the nose portion of that boolit after they are cast, then I won't be using it for .30-06/.308 cartridges. I don't want an interference fit as you can't control how much or how little it is from boolit to boolit and it just becomes another random variable you can't control.

Randy

[jhalcott]

Just WHAT are YOUR accuracy needs for this gun? If you are hunting deer at 200 yards or less, they should work okay. Bench rest shooting may not prove a worth while game. An old 30-06 with a LOT of corrosive ammo thru it and little cleaning, killed many deer for me using a 311291 bullet. I would NOT shoot it beyond about 150 yards as groups(patterns!) opened to much.

[runfiverun]

you have to remember there is a difference between a static fit and a mechanical fit.
bolt guns have the luxury of being able to have a very good static fit in most cases.

other guns such as lever guns and semi-auto's have to rely on mechanical fit where parts of the boolit help center things "on the run" if you can get a static fit but not into the throat right off, and also have the mechanical fit advantage through boolit design, you can make up for the discrepancies of distance.

[303Guy]

Just WHAT are YOUR accuracy needs for this gun? He wants bug hole groups and I do believe he will get there! He is getting very respectable groups already and can only get better. I'm betting beers on it! He's also pioneering the way forward for me. :drinks:

[44man]

I have recently started cast in a Marlin 30-30 after many, many years of rifle lay off. Yes, they have a short throat and I made several molds and bought an RCBS mold. I get good bore ride action but never knew where a boolit was going. I was starting to think "lost cause" but not one to give up I found bad run out. NO, the bore ride did not help. I tracked it to uneven brass necks.
Once I eliminated run out, I am under 1" at 100 and have reached 1/4" once.
I have said a thousand times about revolvers that brass is the enemy and it is also true for the rifle.
I wish you fellas would stop looking for some magic pixie to straighten the boolit when slammed in the butt.
I have heard too many times that BR practices are a waste of time with a hunting rifle, do yourself a favor and try them. You lose nothing in the end. My best friend right now is the RCBS outside neck turning machine. Best durn tool and takes a minute to even out a neck.
Don't try to measure on a cast boolit, most are not round enough, just measure run out on the neck, good enough. brass will still not be right until fired once.
303 guy, you shoot soft stuff and are at the mercy of the brass God more then I am. A few will spend 15 minutes fussing with each boolit only to send it crooked.

[runfiverun]

once again Jim has good insight.
you Must start the boolit straight into the centerline of the barrel.
I have gone through gyrations beyond belief to make this happen in a couple of rifles, oversized chambers in the neck area will kill your accuracy as much as too small of a chamber for the barrel diameter.

[303Guy]

The effects of runout can be seen on captured boolits. Quite simply, the rifling impressions are uneven. I'm not sure we can reliably compare a load light enough to capture the boolit undamaged with a heavier load though. I have had captured boolits with unrecognisable nose sections showing uneven base feathering.

I'd say the more the neck is sized down and then expanded, the greater the runout will be. Same with the more the boolit expands it on seating. That's with the brass thickness being uneven.

[44man]

Sizing too much and then pulling an expander out will bend the shoulders. A very bad thing with the rounded Weatherby shoulders. I sent dies to Redding along with fired brass to get lapped for minimum sizing and it allowed me to shoot under 1/2 minute to 600 yards.
Be aware of the need to over expand the neck too. Lubing necks is a good thing to reduce shoulder pull but it is more to clean up.
I often wonder if what I told Redding and what I wanted lead to the collar dies. I worked with a BR die maker and he made me .44 mag collar dies to work in my RCBS press. No expander needed, just a flare tool. Cost was a pittance because the die maker showed interest in my findings. He really understood me about the revolver. I will tell you I paid less for the custom dies then a set of Lee dies cost.

[1Shirt]

IMO, all rifles like all women have personalities. You have to work with both to get desired results. Trying the same thing over and over again and hoping for different results is just nuts! Trial and error will tell you what you need to know. When you find what works stick with it!
1Shirt!

[257]

I have a ridel rifle co single shot 25 copperhead (222 rem necked up to 25 cal the gun has about 1.100 inches of free bore shoots very well. I have since learned that most of the ridel rifles were wildcats with a ton of free bore but you know the weatherby rifles all had a ton of free bore that's how old roy got the ungodly speeds out of his rifles

[303Guy]

I have considered a case neck trimmer but thought it was more for BR type applications. I have one rifle that typically engages the rifling unevenly making me suspect a misaligned chamber but now I'm not sure. I haven't thought of a way to check for chamber misalignment. I suppose a chamber cast would be the thing to do.

[44man]

I have considered a case neck trimmer but thought it was more for BR type applications. I have one rifle that typically engages the rifling unevenly making me suspect a misaligned chamber but now I'm not sure. I haven't thought of a way to check for chamber misalignment. I suppose a chamber cast would be the thing to do.
I have read many times that it is a waste to use BR techniques with sporters. Not true, found that out 60 years ago. Brass is still your enemy to accuracy. Starting cast off center is a whole lot worse then jacketed and even bullets must start straight.
Give it a try and get as close to zero run out as you can. Can't measure on a cast boolit but you can read case necks.
What have you got to lose?
Some stuff like de-burring flash holes might mean 1/32" or uniforming primer pockets, I don't bother. But run out is real.

[Digital Dan]

.002" run out is the maximum for jacketed but I will guess most cast shooters will have well over .020" and much more.

Sincerely disagree on the first part and doubt that on the second.