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barktan
08-02-2014, 12:27 AM
Hello, I found this out metal detecting. 112302Does anyone have any idea how I could I'd it?

Artful
08-02-2014, 01:00 AM
you need to give some measurements - weight approx diameter - from the single photo my best guess is hollow base wad cutter

Scharfschuetze
08-02-2014, 01:05 AM
Place a ruler under it for an idea of its scale and post a second photo. Also the the aforementioned weight and approximate diameter.

Location found might be of use. If found in an area of a battle or other incident that might help.

Artful
08-02-2014, 01:14 AM
Yeah it could be from a .38 or a .577 Minie - need some scale

Yodogsandman
08-02-2014, 02:21 AM
From the looks, with no scale or weight, it looks just like my old 505gr .58 Minnie balls.

barktan
08-02-2014, 05:27 AM
112310

barktan
08-02-2014, 05:28 AM
112312

barktan
08-02-2014, 05:29 AM
Thank s for the replies. Was found in the west near the Rockies.

barktan
08-02-2014, 05:30 AM
I will post measurements tomorrow. Thanks for the help

barktan
08-03-2014, 12:47 PM
112462

barktan
08-03-2014, 12:49 PM
Ok heres a pic on a ruler. It certainly hit something. There was a lot of Buffalo here years ago

Scharfschuetze
08-03-2014, 07:13 PM
Certainly looks to be 50 calibre and thus possibly a military 50/70 or maybe one of the big Sharps projectiles. It that's the case, the heyday of the big fifties was perhaps the late 1860s to the end of the 1870s. If it's from a muzzle loader, it would date to before that, but the lubrication grooves look to be from the center fire period. Other than the military using Mine boolits of 54 and 58 calibre, I'm not too sure that the big 50 muzzle loaders of the trapping period in Colorado used an elongated projectile. I'm pretty sure that the trappers used round balls, so that, at least in my mind, weighs against a muzzle loading projectile.

Can you determine the number of rifling grooves and the boolit weight in grains? Also, where in Colorado (near what town, river confluence, etc.) did you find it? Just west near the Rockies covers a lot of ground. Is there any proximity to a frontier settlement or other frontier landmark? Many of the Indian battles in Colorado were up in the north eastern corner of the state, although were small fracases throughout the state. And as you mention, buffalo and other hunting may well account for it.

If (a big IF at this point) it is from a 50 calibre center fire rifle, that would narrow down the list of possibilities significantly. Weight and rifling would help reduce the number of possibilities and allow a better SWAG (scientific wild a$$ guess).

barktan
08-04-2014, 12:44 AM
Thank you for the great information. I am not able to see the rifling grooves clearly. I will have to get a small scale to weigh the bullet. It came from Montana

MtGun44
08-04-2014, 02:02 AM
Hollow base? Definitely 50 cal, but lots of them out there in those days,
military and civilian. May have hit nothing more interesting than the
ground. Fur era muzzle loaders were patch and ball, at least all that I
have seen and read about. Minie came out just before the Civil War.

As to quantities of guns, .50-70 Trapdoor is a prime suspect. Compared
to that the Sharps were far fewer. Rem RBs in .50-70 were fairly common
back east, specifically the NY Militia rifle.

Bill

Scharfschuetze
08-04-2014, 02:28 AM
If you can make out three wide rifling grooves, then it is quite probable that it came from a military rifle of the Rolling Block or Trapdoor persuasion such as these two examples from my collection.

As an aside, the 50/70 in the Trapdoor Springfield was famously used at the Wagon Box fight near Fort Phil Kearny south of Sheridan, Wyoming and the Hayfield Fight just over the border in Montana. Several 50/70s have been documented at the Little Big Horn and possibly later at the Wolf Mountain fight. Lots of action in the 1860s and 1870s in South Dakota, Wyoming and Montana against the Sioux and Northern Cheyenne tribes and the 50/70 was in limited use by both sides. General Custer's favorite rifle was reportedly a customized 50/70 Trapdoor and, my memory is a but fuzzy here, a Rolling Block in the calibre too.

The 50/70 was replaced fairly quickly by the 45/70 in 1873, but many soldiered on in the hands of scouts, Indians and as personal weapons of various soldiers. The weight of the bullet should give us a further clue or confirmation of its pedigree.

10x
08-04-2014, 10:11 AM
Thank you, I lost that one years ago, you can ship it to me....

barktan
08-04-2014, 10:15 AM
What an awesome reply. I will post the weight etc as soon as I can .I could also send it to possibly or take some macro images

barktan
08-04-2014, 07:12 PM
I got 27 grams and .9 oz. The scale I used isn't a fine scale. There looks like the top might have been chewed by a varmint.

Artful
08-04-2014, 07:18 PM
We use grains to measure boolit weight
27 grams = 416.673676 grains
got a picture of your varmint marks?

barktan
08-04-2014, 07:24 PM
I didn't know the math conversion and the scale only shows grams n oz. I will post more pics.

barktan
08-04-2014, 07:35 PM
112650112651112652112653112654112656

barktan
08-04-2014, 07:37 PM
"Boolit"!

MtGun44
08-04-2014, 10:20 PM
Here is a link to a good short article by Mike Venturino, pretty much an
expert on the topic.

The .50-70 passed out of the military service relatively quickly, and the guns
were taken up by civilians. "Buffalo Bill" Cody reports that his most famous
rifle was named Lucrezia Borgia after the famous Italian temptress and
political figure, and was a Trapdoor Springfield in .50-70. He used it to
kill literally thousands of buffalo to feed the army, and earned his famous
appellation. He abandoned the rifle at a camp after it quit shooting accurately.

Many years later, after he was famous from his stage shows "back East" and
the Wild West Show, he told someone who inquired as to what happened to the rifle
exactly where he left it. The rifle was recovered, rusted badly and the stock
rotted off, and it is now in the Cody Museum in Cody, Wyoming.
I have seen it there.

http://gunsmagazine.com/the-50-70-government/

Interesting artifact. If you can't find any history of a military battle in
the area, probably shot at some animal and exited - the round has
amazing penetration, reported to frequently exit even on buffalo.

One of the standard loadings by the Sharps Rifle Co. was a 425 grain
"grooved bullet" - which matches yours pretty closely, it would seem.
450 grains was another common boolit weight in the cartridge.
Here is a link to a photo of a cartridge.

http://www.ammo-one.com/50-70GovtRemUMC.jpg

Bill

barktan
08-04-2014, 10:40 PM
Thanks Bill! This is awesome

barktan
08-04-2014, 11:33 PM
Couldn't find any photos of a grooved boolit. I wonder if this is a unique feature to I'd this boolit.

Scharfschuetze
08-05-2014, 12:37 AM
From what I can see from your photos, the rifling doesn't appear to be the military 3 groove barrel. Could be wrong though as time and oxidation as well as damage from impact obfuscate the details. Perhaps under a magnifying glass you could confirm that.

Those three radial grooves are lubrication gooves. The military used a "Japan Wax" as I recall to lubricate their service ammo. I use a beeswax and Vaseline mix to lubricate my black powder boolits with good results. The lubricant is necessary to keep the lead from rubbing off in the rifling with a secondary duty of keeping the black powder fouling soft.

I don't have any cast up right now, at least that I can find; but here is a photo of my Lyman 515141 mould. I understand that it is very similar to the old 50/70 boolit of yore. You can see that it has those three radial lube grooves to cary lubricant. With a 20 to 1 alloy, it produces a boolit of about 430 grains. I think that the standard 50/70 military boolit was 450 grains, but that's just from memory. That is why we ask the weight of the boolit as that is a key indicator in these little flights of fancy.

barktan
08-05-2014, 12:51 AM
Man I'm dumb. I guess I was thinking the cast mark was some sorta grooved boolit mark. I believe I do see one or two rifling marks in picture 5.

MtGun44
08-05-2014, 02:21 AM
Grooved instead of smooth. The grooves hold lubricant, the smooth ones had a wrapping of
paper to isolate the lead from the bore.

Here is a pic you may like. That is a .50-70 Rolling Block rifle, with
some cast boolits and loaded rounds.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=51636&d=1283300853

Bill

Ken in Iowa
08-05-2014, 06:08 AM
Assuming the boolit was originally 450 grains, it narrows it down to a 50/70 rifle or a Sharps 50/100/450 loading. The engraving of the rifling may help indicate which, but that is another question.

I did find a couple of good resources for you;

http://www.chuckhawks.com/buffalo_cartridges.htm

http://www.sodcity.com/gallery2/view_album.php?set_albumName=US-rifles%2C-Ammunition-Accessories&page=10

This is a really cool find. Thanks for posting it and putting up with our questions for details.

Ken

barktan
08-05-2014, 08:10 AM
Thank you very much. Any more questions let me know! Would it help if I get a micrometer to measure it? Thanks so much for the links.