Any tips on improving .44 mag 50 yd. groups?

[ghh3rd]

A couple of years ago, I was shooting my Ruger SBH .44 frequently... 310 gr Lee booits, 21.5 gr H296 @1380 fps... and was able to get 2" groups at 50 yards. I have an Ultradot red dot sight mounted on it, since I can focus on the steel sights any longer. I haven't fired it for a while and am ready to get back to it.

After reading many articles about handgun shooting, I think that I was lucky to have been doing as well as 2". I know that gun can do better. I never seemed to find a hold that I could precisely repeat each session. I wasn't even aware of the big no-no of letting the barrel rest on a sandbag.

I was just reading about handling recoil properly as being one of the most important aspects of handgun accuracy.


...riding the bronc -– that’s the tough one. Its huge effect on accuracy is because the bullet is still in the barrel during the recoil.

Consistent hits at long range requires consistency in grip and trigger pull, consistency in sight picture, consistency in the way you handle recoil –- “riding the bronc,” as gunwriter and long-range handgun shooter Roger Clouser describes it.
The recoil cycle influences accuracy more than any factor because the bullet is still in the barrel while the gun is moving and the shooter controls how the gun moves.
Recoil is not something that should be struggled with, fought or tamed, because that can’t be done consistently either. One takes a ride with recoil in a firm, positive and consistent fashion.


Now I have another pile of boolits cast, and am looking forward to loading and shooting for better groups. By the way, I did eventually wimp out and buy a shooting glove :-)

Any thoughts on handling a bench rested revolver for accuracy would be appreciated. Of course I need to figure out how to replicate the results for hunting too....

Randy

[Blammer]

I would recommend that you find a good rest that holds the gun comfortably for you.

I put the barrel of my 44 mag on the bags or rest sometimes and it does not seem to affect the accuracy as long as you are consistent.

Sight picture and holding the firearm the same way will be the most important for accuracy.

What ever you do, be consistent.

[Shuz]

Blammer has it right. Whatever you do, be consistent. What works for me is to use a couple of 2x4"'s that are screwed together for heighth; and then I place a sandbag, covered in leather, on the top of the 2x4's for the front rest. I then use another sandbag under the grip. I snug the gun up to the front bag so that the trigger guard is touching the front bag set up, and I am careful not to rest the bbl on the sandbag. Perhaps it doesn't matter to let the bbl rest on the top sandbag, but it seems to me that it might effect bbl vibrations or muzzel flip, who knows? Maybe it doesn't matter, I've never tried it!
The reason the front sandbag is covered with leather(rubber tire innertubes work too) is to keep the hot powder gases from eating up my shot bag cloth sandbags. Remember....be consistent in dealing with whatever re-coil you are having. Your quote says it all.
Good luck!

[DougGuy]

In addition to what is said, use a pin gauge set or use a cast boolit and see how even your cylinder throats are. You can weigh each charge, you can use any sandbag or mechanical rest, if those throats are 3 different diameters, they will make the gun shoot to 3 different points of impact. Best case scenario the boolits you want to shoot will fit into the front of the cylinder throats with finger pressure, and you would have the same light drag fitment on each throat. Likely that won't happen if the cylinder is stock as shipped from Ruger.

Those 310s cast in 50/50+2% are awesome shooting boolits out of my 7 1/2" SBH. They got better when I reamed and honed my cylinder throats, sized the boolits to .432" and cut a nice pretty 11° forcing cone on the end of the barrel. Cut groups in half, it shoots better now than it ever has in the 25yrs I have owned it.

[MBTcustom]

PM 44man and cbrick, and obey what they say like it was law. They are the resident experts here IMHO (not to discount anybody elses advice at all).

[dubber123]

DougGuy has a lot of good tips. I will add firelapping if you determine it has a frame constriction in the barrel. I have had nothing but positive results from firelapping, and many times it showed a noticeable reduction in 50 yd. groups.

[ghh3rd]

.44man helped me choose the right load a few years ago, the one mentioned in my post, and I proved it to myself working up and past that load and watching the groups close until 21.5 gr. and open up past that. (18.5 seemed pretty good too).

He cautioned me about even neck tension, although I didn't understand neck tension, and have been getting up to speed about it now. He suggested hard boolits (water dropped) although I've been shooting air cooled boolits (another chance to improve), as well as Felix lube, which I've used exclusively in the SBH. And last but not least a regular primer such as a Fed 150 rather than a magnum primer, and a light crimp.

Also, the cylinder throats are .432, barrel is .430, although I don't know precisely how uniform all of the cylinders are to each other.

So, although I may get the remaining characteristics of the boolits up to par, I feel I'll still be lacking if I'm not I don't understand the optimum shooting technique to assure consistency.

Thanks

[runfiverun]

I'm with goodsteel on this one.
they can tell you what works.
i'll go out on a limb and say one of their answers is to never let the grips touch anything but your hands.

[44man]

I do everything different of course. I rest the barrel on a bag near the muzzle and rest the grip on the rear bag. The rear bag must be firm and maintain consistency. If it is loose one time and tight the next you will string a little.
I have tried everything and it is the only way I can hold still enough for testing.
Some of my big boomers will not change POI off hand, others do so I sight in for hunting from sitting or Creedmore. Testing or shooting groups does not need to hit off hand anyway. If you are sighted off hand it makes no difference where test groups hit paper.
The bigger guns can give me some wrist twist from bags. .475 and up, the .44 is hardly felt.
Most fellas worry about where they hit, that is what sight adjustments are for.112254 This is my .44, off hand at 100, three shots in 3/4", the gun was sighted from bags. If I remember, that is the Lee 310. 21.5 gr 296, Fed 150. Red dot.
I wish I could hold steady like that all the time! Just had a good day. :bigsmyl2:

[Wayne S]

To check the constancy of the throats set up 5 targets if you load only 5 or 6 targets if you load all 6 chambers. Use a marker or the serial # on the cylinder or what other means you chose so that you shoot# 1 cylinder on # 1 target, # 2 cylinder on # 2 target, ect., ect. shoot at least 4 cylinders full and note if any variances in the point of impact between all 5 or 6 groups.
ALL the points, especially the fire lapping / bbl. constriction are spot on.
I would add;
1.see if someone still makes lighter pull trigger springs for your RSBH
2. if you shoot with anyone else have them load your cylinder and leave one or two rounds out, checking to see if you aren't "helping" the round down range. OR as I used to do when I shot a RSBH standing in Comp., load 5,then spin the cylinder. Nothing will make you concentrate more on trigger pull that the thought of being on the firing line and being seen "helping" a round down range.
3. If you are using your load just for "plinking", target shooting, ect. ponder on changing to a lighter bullet and a load using Unique / 231/ ect. something that you would enjoy shooting 45 or 80 times. I would post pictures of the X-rays of all the joints on my shooting hand's side of my body, BUT I didn't listen some 35 years ago, so I don't expect anyone to listen today.

3.

[Tar Heel]

Absolutely - positively - start with sight alignment, sight picture, and then squeeze the trigger. With a hard kicking magnum this takes intense mental discipline. If you are not doing it yet, fix that FIRST.

Your grip is important too. You need a firm grip but NOT a death grip. A grip which is too loose allows too much recoil. The grips should rotate through your closed hand a little to adsorb the recoil energy and reduce the amount of force coupling at the hand/grip interface. Hopefully you still have the smooth factory grips installed allowing for some grip slippage in your hand upon firing.

I do rest the frame on a sandbag when determining accuracy potential. I use a "u" rest which catches the frame just in front of the trigger guard. Do NOT let the grip touch anything other than your hand as mentioned in a previous post. Resting the barrel can be problematic and will shift your group due to inconsistent placement and pressure from shot to shot. Allow the barrel to "float".

Again however, sight alignment, sight picture, and squeeeeeeeeeze the trigger.

[fecmech]

I rest the barrel on a bag near the muzzle and rest the grip on the rear bag. The rear bag must be firm and maintain consistency. If it is loose one time and tight the next you will string a little.
Pretty much the way I shoot for load testing. I have a medium hard rubber rest for the barrel and a very firm sand bag for the butt of the grip. Works so well I sold my Ransom Rest years ago.

[DougGuy]

Let me back up to before the gun is even loaded, before the ammo is even assembled. This is a basic necessity with any revolver, but a single action with that long hammer throw is even more susceptible to throwing off the sights when the trigger breaks. With a SA, it is -imperative- that you be able to dry fire it without the sights moving.

With an UNLOADED pistol, (making SURE it is UNLOADED) set up a target or pick a spot of reference and align the sights, hold the sights steady and squeeze off a shot. What did the sights do? If they jumped any at all, that's what the boolit did in live fire. Classic example.. Most right handed shooters will jerk the front sight a little to the left when the sear breaks. You can curl your finger a little to the right and pull slightly to the right and watch what the front sight does. You can "train" your trigger finger to always break the shot the same way (which should happen subconsciously) and just remember to shoot it like that each time. If you can't hold the sights perfectly motionless in dry fire, take one leg of the trigger return spring off and try. If it got better but not quite remain still, swap in a Wolff 30oz trigger return spring, and try again. You can also let one leg of the lightened Wolff spring hang off and try it again.

This spring adds a lot of pull weight to the trigger and makes it really hard to hold the sights still on a factory stock Ruger single action. Take this dry fire test, and see if you can improve your sight picture when the hammer falls. If you can, you just improved your groups!

[44man]

Factory trigger springs are easy to re-bend to lighten the trigger but use caution or the trigger can kick forward and drop the transfer bar.
I have mine at 1-1/2# but made a longer transfer bar so it never leaves the firing pin. If your transfer only covers half the pin at full cock, stay at 3# or more.
My revolvers jar when the hammers fall, all of mine have Wolfe variable over power hammer springs of 26#.
Do NOT let the grip roll. The revolver should never rotate in your hand. Hold just short of muscle shaking. I use Pachmeyer grips.

[tazman]

I do everything different of course. I rest the barrel on a bag near the muzzle and rest the grip on the rear bag. The rear bag must be firm and maintain consistency. If it is loose one time and tight the next you will string a little.
I have tried everything and it is the only way I can hold still enough for testing.
Some of my big boomers will not change POI off hand, others do so I sight in for hunting from sitting or Creedmore. Testing for shooting groups does not need to hit off hand anyway. If you are sighted off hand it makes no difference where test groups hit paper.
Most fellas worry about where they hit, that is what sight adjustments are for.:bigsmyl2:

So very true and missed by so many people. I have been around people who think the revolver absolutely has to hit the same point of impact regardless of being bagged or shot offhand. I have also seen people shoot 1 or 2 shots, then change their point of aim so the rest hit the bullseye when testing a load for grouping. You never know if the rest of them grouped with the others if you change your aim in the middle of the group.

[captaint]

When attempting my best groups, I try to make the trigger break a surprise. Increasing the pull until that boom happens. I find when I anticipate the trigger break, I drop the front sight on a regular basis. Shooting off hand, I mean... Mike

[ghh3rd]

When I shoot, I don't care if I'm in the center of the target, only how close the holes are together. When I took the revolver out hunting, I did a final sight adjustment shooting offhand groups. I was hoping to get to the range with the SBH today, but disassembled it last night to replace the gate detent spring. Of course the gate is giving me new trouble (won't open or close), but at least I'm learning more about the gun.

[Tar Heel]

Life is good. Seventeen responses....seventeen different answers. That narrows it right down! :-)

Heck now I'm confused. Where is Elmer when we need him?

[blikseme300]

Life is good. Seventeen responses....seventeen different answers. That narrows it right down! :-)

Heck now I'm confused. Where is Elmer when we need him?

Then we would have 18 different answers![smilie=l:

[W.R.Buchanan]

I would suggest doing whatever you did to shoot that 2" group! You already did it, you just have to do it again.

Sometimes taking notes can tell you what you did last time. I personally have CRS Syndrome, and I have found that others do as well. So that might work for you.

It sounds to me like you are kind of over thinking this. I have never heard of a .44 anything shooting "any significant amount better" than 1" at 25 yds. 2" at 50 yards is pretty decent rifle accuracy, although I have heard of Rifles shooting closer to 1" at 100 yards in certain cases.

I would ponder this one question. Other than paper targets, what exactly do you plan on shooting with this gun?

The accuracy you speak of having already achieved is more than accurate enough for Plinking , Silhouette Shooting Competitions, shooting cars or light trucks, or hunting any Game Animal that is viable for a revolver.

Maybe you should just concentrate on shooting, instead of shooting for groups......

If you are only going to shoot paper targets there is no answer to your question as your quest for the "best possible group" will never end, simply because you will always think that you can do better.

My point is,,,, Maybe you have already arrived?

If you still feel the need to explore the potential of your gun I would suggest a Ransom Rest. That will remove the biggest variable from the equation,,, YOU.

Randy

[gray wolf]

I have never heard of a .44 anything shooting "any significant amount better" than 1" at 25 yds. 2" at 50 yards is pretty decent rifle accuracy,

I don't quite agree with your findings.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Well now I have,,, I'm impressed!

Were those rifle or pistol and at what distance? Ransom Rest?

Randy

[fecmech]

Looks like 25 yds from picture

[gray wolf]

Ruger SRH 25 yards off a sand bag rest, actually I always use two bags, a softer smaller one in back of a slightly bigger one, fiber optic front and rear. the loads are HS6 / Long shot / and Unique. I think I marked the targets. The targets in the pictures are 1" black and some 1" red ones.

Last week I was setting it up with a friend for some steel at 50 Yards. It shot 4 shots all hitting each other in a little cluster off the same bag set up with 9.4 of unique that was with a ultra dot 30 red dot on the SRH, He got ticked off and shot up the target.

The same pistol will break clay birds at 130 yards ( the full lenght of our range )
The bullets were a Lyman 429421 and a 265 grain RNFP The two smaller targets were shot with 6 grains of tight group and the Lyman bullet. As you see it's a lot more than one target, I don't shoot one and cut it out for my wallet.

It's not hard to do, even for me at 71 Years old, you must find the load bullet combo that will shoot tight
and not settle till you have the best you can assemble, if you do you sell yourself short.
There is always a load bullet combo that will out do what you thought was the best.

As others have said a light safe trigger is important, with the sight picture on target they MUST not move when the shot breaks, simple rule. Those targets are at least 6 shot groups, I think I pulled one on one of the small targets.
Another good load that shoots as good but has a little more power and gets out a little more is the Lyman gas check 255 grain 429244 with 19 grains of 2400 hornady checks,
believe it or not GP100 ( Rich ) sent me some Aluminum checks that shot better than the copper checks.
But i don't have anymore of those, don't have any more hornady checks either, but i still cast up the bullets with the hopes of getting some.

Sam

[44man]

Gray wolf has it correct, good shooting. The .44 is amazing and even my old SBH will hold 3/4" at 50. I use ONLY heavy hunting loads with 296.
Good loads and groups for deer are more important to me then anything. 4" at 50 from a rest would be tossed in the garbage because add shakes off hand and you can cripple a deer at 50. Any good load combined with us weak gun holders, should do 6" at 100 off hand. That is my usual but once in a while I do much better. Age takes a toll.
I can not shoot a scoped gun off hand at all, the cross hairs all over the place messes with me but a red dot is easier.
The worst thing ever is to make a gun fire when the cross hair crosses the target. Without support from bags, you will do the same. Floating on the frame is not the way, lock the gun down.
I can't shoot open sights from bags either, too close to my eyes now, can't focus the sights. I have to shoot Creedmore with opens to get the gun way out there.
Why do you fear putting the butt on a bag? You are testing loads, not sighting in.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I guess I will have to practice a little more.

The best .44 Pistol group I have ever seen "personally," was just under 1." Shot from a Ruger SBH, and I lost $10 on that bet as the best I could muster with my M29 was 1.5"

We were shooting with open sights, and it sounds like you are shooting with Scopes? The optic could be responsible for some of the accuracy?

That group with the star looks like it could be 1/2"? and that is pretty amazing!

I believe that one would be permanently on my "Wall of Fame."

Randy

[gray wolf]

and it sounds like you are shooting with Scopes?
Now don't go putting words in my mouth,:bigsmyl2: I shoot at 25 with irons and scope at 50 +
going on about how hard it is does nothing but mess with your karma, if you think it's hard, if you think it's impossible then that is what it will be.

IMHO the important thing is to do the best you can, shoot every boolit like it was the only one you brought to the range. If you are not happy with the results, stop, try to Analise what is going on and fix what you can and be happy with what you can't fix.

If I shoot 10 rounds and get a 3" group why should I think the next 10 rounds are going to be any better unless something changes.

[ghh3rd]

Something for me to aspire to...

[MBTcustom]

That's like driving off the lot in a brand new chevy 4X4 and you go to show your buddy and he's waxing his Hummer and says "Hmm, nice little truck".
LOL!
Darn fine shooting Greywolf!


if you think it's hard, if you think it's impossible then that is what it will be.
There is a lot of wisdom in that statement. Lots of wisdom.

Around here we call it "faith in reverse".

[Blammer]

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/44SRH_429640_2400-1.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Targets/44SRH_429640_2400-1.jpg.html)

The above target the squares are one inch squares.
The below target the squares are 1/2 inch squares.
The below target I changed my sight picture because I kept thinking I missed it. Well all 5 went into one spot and the sixth was when I changed aiming point.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/5-44shots226grNEI.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Targets/5-44shots226grNEI.jpg.html)

[M-Tecs]

Nice shooting. I have not seen the bottom target before. I really like it. I am stealing it!!!!!!!!!!

[ubetcha]

I can't disagree with any of the advise given at all, but I was always told that to shoot a handgun from a rest, it's better to have no part of the gun touching the rest. Hold the gun with both hands and rest you wrist's on the sand bags. That way the gun will recoil pretty much the same each time, providing your hold is consistent.

[M-Tecs]

That way is better to get point of impact closer to hand hold but it is not as steady as front and rear support. For load development I use front and rear support understanding that POI may be way different than hand holding.

For sighting in I Hold the gun with both hands and rest my wrist's on the sand bags followed by whatever position I plan on shooting.

[44man]

I can't disagree with any of the advise given at all, but I was always told that to shoot a handgun from a rest, it's better to have no part of the gun touching the rest. Hold the gun with both hands and rest you wrist's on the sand bags. That way the gun will recoil pretty much the same each time, providing your hold is consistent.
Keeps going round and round but you are testing loads and groups, shooting that way brings YOU into the testing. Kind of like shooting a BR match off hand!
Rest right and you will out shoot a Ransom Rest. You need to take yourself out of the picture, we are frail lumps of jelly with a brain that says "watch this."

[ubetcha]

Keeps going round and round but you are testing loads and groups, shooting that way brings YOU into the testing. Kind of like shooting a BR match off hand!
Rest right and you will out shoot a Ransom Rest. You need to take yourself out of the picture, we are frail lumps of jelly with a brain that says "watch this."

Good point! I guess I didn't look at it that way. Always learning something new each day, or just retrieving forgotten things from the cob webs in the brain.:oops:

[44man]

Just watched Jerry break a balloon at 1000 yards with a NINE. Amazing thing to see.
I could do it if you cast my whole body in concrete! :bigsmyl2: Then you need to tape a scope to my head so I could see that far.
My hat is off the gentleman.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Guys; I have met Jerry and believe me he is a kidder to put it mildly. That shot was raw talent combined with healthy dose of divine guidance,,, and he would be the first one to tell you that off camera.

He said his hold over was about 150 feet!

You will notice he quit after the second shot.

Still it was pretty cool.

Elmer Keith once shot a wounded deer at 600 yards with a 4" .44 Magnum Revolver. A noted gun writer from back east called BS and EK invited him to show up in Idaho. The guy did show up,,, whereupon EK took him out back and repeated the shot 4 out of 6 times.

Swallow!

However he did write about the experience, and gave Keith credit for defending his statement.

Some of us are just better than others. It is the way of the world.

Randy

[AggieEE]

Lots of good info guys, thanks. Now I need to practice and practice some more.

[SSGOldfart]

Gray wolf has it correct, good shooting. The .44 is amazing and even my old SBH will hold 3/4" at 50. I use ONLY heavy hunting loads with 296.
Good loads and groups for deer are more important to me then anything. 4" at 50 from a rest would be tossed in the garbage because add shakes off hand and you can cripple a deer at 50. Any good load combined with us weak gun holders, should do 6" at 100 off hand. That is my usual but once in a while I do much better. Age takes a toll.
I can not shoot a scoped gun off hand at all, the cross hairs all over the place messes with me but a red dot is easier.
The worst thing ever is to make a gun fire when the cross hair crosses the target. Without support from bags, you will do the same. Floating on the frame is not the way, lock the gun down.
I can't shoot open sights from bags either, too close to my eyes now, can't focus the sights. I have to shoot Creedmore with opens to get the gun way out there.
Why do you fear putting the butt on a bag? You are testing loads, not sighting in.

what we used to call that" minute of deer", if you can hit a paper plate with the first cold bore shot at 50 yards you can hit a deer size critter right in the boiler

[Digital Dan]

I don't quite agree with your findings.

I think some context is appropriate. 2" at 50 ain't bad at all.....offhand. I've done some goofy things in my life, but shooting critters afield from a rest with a pistol hasn't happened yet. I have bested 2" at 50 offhand though. RSB and my eyes were a lot younger back in the '80s.