Selling reloading components - HOW? (Referencing building codes)

[davep]

Probably in the wrong section, but I couldn't figure out where else to put it. I've been reviewing building codes, as I'm looking at putting in a shop that sells reloading supplies, among other things. When I looked at the codes, my jaw about hit the floor. As I read it, the International Building Code, which most or many cities adopt, reads as follows:

SECTION 307 - HIGH-HAZARD GROUP H
Exceptions: The following shall not be classified in Group H, but shall be classified in the occupancy that they most nearly resemble:
15. The storage of black powder, smokeless propellant and small arms primers in Groups M and R-3 and special industrial explosive devices in Groups B, F, M and S, provided such storage conforms to the quantity limits and requirements prescribed in the International Fire Code.

Now for non-contractor types, Group H is the big Hazard buildings, very strong standards if you're storing or making stuff that goes bang, especially in large quantities. #15 is an exception to those regs for Group M, among others. Group M is Mercantile, or the stores we all shop in. So, as indicated, we pull up the fire code:

IFC: 5606.5 Display and storage in Group M occupancies.
The display and storage of small arms ammunition components in Group M occupancies shall comply with Sections 5606.5.1 through 5606.5.2.3.
5606.5.1 Display.
Display of small arms ammunition components in Group M occupancies shall comply with Sections 5606.5.1.1 through 5606.5.1.3.
5606.5.1.1 Smokeless propellant. Not more than 20 pounds (9 kg) of smokeless propellants, in containers of 1 pound (0.454 kg) or less capacity each, shall be displayed in Group M occupancies.
5606.5.1.2 Black powder. No more than 1 pound (0.454 kg) of black powder shall be displayed in Group M occupancies.
5606.5.1.3 Small arms primers. No more than 10,000 small arms primers shall be displayed in Group M occupancies.

Okay, so if I read this right, a store can display no powder jugs over a pound, and only 20 of those. Only one jug of black powder. No more than 10 boxes of primers of any combination. There is a further section about storage, but I think the word display means what a customer can see.

So, the Walmart that has a dozen jugs (or even two jugs) of Triple Seven would be in violation. Every Cabelas or Bass Pro with a primer end cap is in violation. Pretty much every small and large gun supply retailer in the whole dang country is in violation. I KNOW this can't be right, but I can't find anywhere the code that gets retailers past this. Does anybody know?

[Duckiller]

Dave, not sure what State you are in but I would start by talking to your local planningand/or building departments. They can point you to what you have to do. As far a selling powder you will probably have to talk to you State Fire Marshall. While local fire depts will have to fight any fires they are not the experts on storage of powder. A small local gunshop in our area that has gone out of business was very limited in the amount of powder they could keep on hand. More than than an indivual can store( 25 lbs) but still fairly limited. Make peace with your local zoning and building officials and you will have few problems. One problem you may have is if your City Council does not want a reloading store in their city. This will result a very strict interpertation of all zoneing and building regulations that are designed to make you go away. You can fight them but it wiil cost money and be very frustrating. Good luck and keep us posted on how thing work out.

[davep]

Thanks Duckiller. I'm in a fairly large city (over a half million), and have a good relationship with the local officials. But, I like to know my stuff beforehand where possible. In this case, those codes are so universally adopted, but yet obviously almost everyone in the biz doesn't seem to follow them. Let's face it, if that is the final code, every major retailer is doing it wrong. I just don't think it can be by the goodwill of officials everywhere looking the other way. And, even if it were, goodwill can change with the next person to take the job. I'm just hoping to hear from somebody who's dealt with it and knows what codes override it. Thanks again.

[shooter93]

I wish you all the luck in the world Dave. I am the "builder type"....been doing it for 50 years. No one on the planet can understand the building codes and there is way to much discretion involved. Now a days zoning officers, inspectors etc. have zero knowledge of building and are simply sent to "code school" There someone who went to the same school tells them what it all means and then use your discretion. It seems worse in larger population areas than smaller ones to me but that is also changing. Get one "official" who doesn't like guns and they will find one road block after another and a court battle can be expensive. I hope you have no troubles now and in the future should the powers that be in your area may change. Let us know how you make out.

[375RUGER]

I imagine the fire marshal or your insurance inspector when he does a walk thru will tell you what is and is not acceptable.

[crazy mark]

Dave, Every state has their own adopted codes also. Look under the State Fire Marshall codes. BP substitutes are treated like normal powders. I talked with an Oregon Fire Marshall once about how much reloading primers and powders I had and he wasn't too concerned. One gun shop there had a shipping container for their gunpowder and primers. It had several vents on it. You will have to have a proper powder locker and primer locker.

[facetious]

We went to get my wife a sales tax license a few years a go and while there I asked about building a shed. Told them what I wanted to do and thy said I could put it up any were I wanted to as long as it didn't bother the neighbors. So then I asked about a small green house. He told me that it had to be this far from the house and so far from the property line then he saw the wife's tax stuff and asked if we were going to try and sell any thing from it my wife told him that she sold some tomato's that she had started at a garage sale. Holy cow did that start some thing. He went on to tell us that if a cop had stopped by that she could have been arrested. That if she wanted to sell any thing like that she would have to have a Ag license a sales license and EPA certification, the green house would need a building permit and be certified to 150 mpr wind speed and it just went on and on. So much for that idea. Any way the green house would not fit were I wanted to put it with the property line set back so I asked if I made a shed with the north wall,east side and the north side of the roof solid and the rest clear did I have a green house or a shed with big windows? He left to talk to some one and come back and told me that I would be pushing it but mite get a way with it but that the clear part had better not be more than 50%. In the end I put up my shed but never got to the green house.

[Four-Sixty]

I think it was Steven Keen in "Debunking Economics" who said you have to cheat to make a profit anymore.

We are pretty stupid for letting it get out of hand like it has.

[Mk42gunner]

Fire safety regs are where you need to be looking. 49CFR maybe???

There is a big difference between smokeless and black powder storage requirements.

Robert

[WILCO]

Contact local officials. Hire an Attorney to sort out legal translations. It really is that simple.

[davep]

Fire safety regs are where you need to be looking. 49CFR maybe???

There is a big difference between smokeless and black powder storage requirements.

Robert

Good thought Robert, 49 CFR covers transportation, which makes sense, as federal law covers interstate transport. I think this stuff is more at local levels, but everybody uses the same codes, with some mods. In this case, neither my state nor local fire or building codes modify the particular IBC or IFC codes as far I as I have found. It may well be that every store who sells powders gets an "exception", it just seems to be on too grand a scale to make sense that way. Thanks everybody, I'll post what I end up finding.

[lylejb]

I think I would talk with your local and county building and fire people.

I can't think of any stores I've seen comply with those regs, except by accident, when out of nearly everything.

I know of a shop in a neighboring town that had 100+ lbs, and 50k + primers on a rack of shelfs right in the middle of the store. Was the first thing you would see when you walk in the door.

Their only problem was resupply during the panic.

[dakotashooter2]

When reading the code you always need to look for notations. There are generally ways to get increases. For example a fully sprinklered building (which many newer buildings are) can get a 100% increase in storage capacity. Another factor is the construction type of the building you are in. Almost any building type out there can be classified fully or partially as an H-3 (with area limitations) and allow for an increase in quantity. The structure might have to meet the most restrictive requirements of both the M group and H-3 group but it is possible. Storage quantities can also be increased by utilizing approved storage containers or by constructing control areas. Also note that in a retail building all areas (display included) would be considered storage since the powder is not being "used" in any manner. So an un-sprinklered building could have 125# on display if they wanted to. Or 250# if the building is sprinklered and 375# if fully sprinkled AND approved storage cabinets are used (notes d & e of table 307.1 in the 2012 building code). Note that local or state codes may be more restrictive. Also note that many areas follow the NFPA rather than the IFC. There may be some minor differences.

Some retail outlets "display" empty containers in order to increase or meet the storage limits for their particular building.

FWIW most Fire Marshals or Building Inspectors will tell you if what you are planning is compliant or non-compliant but don't expect them to help you to figure out how to achieve compliance, that's not their job, but that of an architect.

[davep]

When reading the code you always need to look for notations. There are generally ways to get increases. For example a fully sprinklered building (which many newer buildings are) can get a 100% increase in storage capacity. Another factor is the construction type of the building you are in. Almost any building type out there can be classified fully or partially as an H-3 (with area limitations) and allow for an increase in quantity. The structure might have to meet the most restrictive requirements of both the M group and H-3 group but it is possible. Storage quantities can also be increased by utilizing approved storage containers or by constructing control areas. Also note that in a retail building all areas (display included) would be considered storage since the powder is not being "used" in any manner. So an un-sprinklered building could have 125# on display if they wanted to. Or 250# if the building is sprinklered and 375# if fully sprinkled AND approved storage cabinets are used (notes d & e of table 307.1 in the 2012 building code). Note that local or state codes may be more restrictive. Also note that many areas follow the NFPA rather than the IFC. There may be some minor differences.

Some retail outlets "display" empty containers in order to increase or meet the storage limits for their particular building.

FWIW most Fire Marshals or Building Inspectors will tell you if what you are planning is compliant or non-compliant but don't expect them to help you to figure out how to achieve compliance, that's not their job, but that of an architect.

The building isn't sprinkled, and I'd rather not due to cost. Interesting thought on the H-3 and/or storage overlays. I would think that the M limits would, as the most restrictive, be the ones applied, but am I missing an angle there? From a practical perspective, wouldn't expect to have much on display, but it would be nice to know what the true limits are. I'll also double check but our local codes only reference IBC on this, which of course defers only to IFC (keeping it in the family). Thanks.

[dakotashooter2]

Just to clarify, the storage cabinets will allow you to double your storage capacity even without the sprinklers. You'd just have to make sure you have protected storage for any amounts over 125#.

Classification as an H-3 or partially as an H-3 would likely require some increased fire resistance of the building subject to the setbacks from the property line. Depending on the building construction that may already be in place. An example might be a steel framed or mason building.

[wv109323]

I understand that black powder is a big no-no with the Batfe. They make it too big of a hassle that you will not offer it for sale.

[davep]

Good feedback. In my case, it would be small retail, so we're not talking a lot. I'm still hopeful that it isn't just up to the whim of any given person, but it may well be. No way this location would classify H-3. Then again, neither would my local Walmart, where they should be putting a couple of cases of black powder on the shelves pretty quick. Muzzleloader deer season starts in a few weeks. Thanks all for the input, I'll try to let you know if I find anything more of value.