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wrinkles
07-29-2014, 08:52 PM
OK I found a thread here about trouble with lee 124gr six cavity tumble lube bullets causing keyholes. I'm having the same trouble they keyhole in 5 different 9mm pistols, tangfuglio 9mm, s&w m&P, keltec pf9, and 2 XDs. They are sized in a .356 sizer and loaded at 3.8 gr titegroup. I used the dillon expander plug. Should I be shooting .358? Using straight wheel weights. Powder coat and lee tumble lube do the same about 40% of them keyhole.

Any suggestions. This only happens with this bullet type and weight. I'm also getting a lot of leading.

swheeler
07-29-2014, 09:00 PM
99% of the time keyholeing means an undersized bullet, should chamber fine at .358 so that where I'd start

dh2
07-29-2014, 09:23 PM
you are tumble lubing them I shoot some from lee moulds lubed and unsized work the load up again and try it, the instructions with the mould will tell you sizing may not be needed.
if not I would try .357 before I tried .358 in a 9mm

NavyVet1959
07-29-2014, 09:43 PM
I've wondered what keyholing would do from a ballistic standpoint as compared to a non-hollowpoint at typical self-defense distances. Might be useful for those rounds that have a tendency to over-penetrate.

tomme boy
07-29-2014, 10:34 PM
Typical Lee TL 9mm design. If you see someone complaining a 9mm is tumbling, 9 out of 10 times it is the TL design. Do not size them and run them with a hard alloy. Things should improve.

Jupiter7
07-29-2014, 10:58 PM
.358 in my XD 9.

runfiverun
07-29-2014, 11:21 PM
358 here too.
remember that p/c boolits have to follow the same rules as the non-p/c ones.
key-holing is caused by an unstabilized bullet/boolit, you either aren't spinning them fast enough or you ain't gripping the rifling.
I'd say you ain't gripping the rifling.

b.t.w. about a year or so back we went through a period of time where the lee t/l mold in the 9m was the number one thread starter on this site.

tazman
07-29-2014, 11:58 PM
.357 or .358 in my 9mm pistols. If the boolit drops at 358 I don't size it. Just lube and shoot.
I water drop my 9mm boolit to get a bit extra hardness and it seems to work for me.

HeavyMetal
07-30-2014, 10:20 AM
Go to the Lee 125 RF and use the TL 9mm mold as a paper weight!

landers
07-30-2014, 10:50 AM
I had the exact same problem and with help from everyone here in a post I discovered I needed to use a slower powder with the light 9mm. I believe runfiverun is spot on from my experience, if you have the sizing correct. I switched to Power Pistol and all of my key holes went away and groups really tightened up.

Landers

NavyVet1959
07-30-2014, 10:53 AM
Switch to round ball -- you will not have to worry about a keyhole. :)

dondiego
07-30-2014, 10:53 AM
They don't call it a TUMBLE lube bullet for nuttin'!

docone31
07-30-2014, 11:00 AM
I am not sure roundball is the answer. My 1851 Pietta .44 keyholes all the time with roundball.I cannot figuire it out. How does a roundball, striking a target on a corrugated backing, make a keyhole?I use 30gns ffg .454 roundball, grease.Head scratcher for sure.

Virginia John
07-30-2014, 11:11 AM
As you can see from above posts, keyholeing can be caused by a number of different conditions. Keep it simple and just try one fix at a time. Start by not sizing the bullet, if that works great - no cost involved. Next, try changing your current load - again minimal or no cost. After you have exhausted all the no cost or low cost fixes, then go the the money eaters like new moulds, different powders, etc.

MtGun44
07-30-2014, 11:23 AM
Check out the sticky on loading for the 9mm, it may shorten the learning curve.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121737-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

The primary problem is too small, after that - many folks fail with TL designs in 9mm although
some have made it work. I strongly recommend the Lee 356 120 TC conventional lube at .357 or .358 diam.

Bill

NavyVet1959
07-30-2014, 11:29 AM
I am not sure roundball is the answer. My 1851 Pietta .44 keyholes all the time with roundball.I cannot figuire it out. How does a roundball, striking a target on a corrugated backing, make a keyhole?I use 30gns ffg .454 roundball, grease.Head scratcher for sure.

Interesting... I had figured it would be physically impossible for a round ball to keyhole since no matter which way it spun or tumbled, it would still be a round ball hitting the target.

runfiverun
07-30-2014, 11:59 AM
if you are making a circle key hole you are elongating the boolit somewhere.
you got some measuring to do.

Harter66
07-30-2014, 01:59 PM
I've not had that issue mine . They drop at 360 from mine ,I shoot them as cast from 50/50 and water dropped. I tried the same boolit in the 401-175 those have to be WDWW or they will tumble from start to max loads.

dondiego
07-30-2014, 02:04 PM
I am not sure roundball is the answer. My 1851 Pietta .44 keyholes all the time with roundball.I cannot figuire it out. How does a roundball, striking a target on a corrugated backing, make a keyhole?I use 30gns ffg .454 roundball, grease.Head scratcher for sure.


One you seat the ball and shave the lead ring, the RB is no longer round! I have recovered many elongated balls.

NavyVet1959
07-30-2014, 02:26 PM
One you seat the ball and shave the lead ring, the RB is no longer round! I have recovered many elongated balls.

But is there enough of an elongation of the round ball to actually cause a noticeable keyhole?

Of course, this doesn't have anything to do with the OP's original question, but it's an interesting tangent none the less.

If a round ball consistently causes keyholes in one direction, I would be inclined to rotate the target 90 degrees just on the off chance that the paper had a grain to it that caused it to tear more readily in one direction than the other.

I'm planning on adding the Lee .360" diameter round ball mold to my next Midway order to experiment around with it in .357mag. I'm curious what would be the velocity that it would achieve in a full power .357mag load. If a 125 gr load can get 1600 fps with a particular powder charge, a 70 gr round ball could *theoretically* get 2857 fps (based on conservation of momentum). Of course, I'll get less velocity than that, but the question is HOW MUCH LESS? At worst, I'll get a fireball and lead dust coming out the end of the barrel due to the bullet basically disintegrating. :)

dondiego
07-31-2014, 10:15 AM
Actually, the balls that I recovered had been elongated in the barrel most likely. They would have demonstrated a keyhole if they had hit the target sideways.

wrinkles
07-31-2014, 08:54 PM
To all the members who posted relevant info for my problem thanks I will start with not sizing them and go from there. Again thanks for the info.

1johnlb
07-31-2014, 10:51 PM
Navyvet sounds like you have entirely to much time and powder on your hands, and having fun with it.

NavyVet1959
07-31-2014, 11:07 PM
Navyvet sounds like you have entirely to much time and powder on your hands, and having fun with it.

Don't know about too much powder... Probably only around 100 lbs, but some of it is .50BMG and 20mm powder (just because it was cheap and I figured that I could find *something* that could use it eventually. Come on... Weren't you the least bit curious what 20mm cannon powder would do in a 10mm handgun?

JeffG
07-31-2014, 11:32 PM
I use the TL356-124-TC and 356-120-TC and have zero issues in my S&W SD9. I've also shot some of my rounds in an S&W 9mm Shield and had no issue with it either. I size mine .357 and have run some at .358 but didn't need it. Actually, it felt like the gun was working harder with the .358, meaning there was a different feel in the recoil. Haven't had the first keyhole with them in any event and I'm typically shooting 25 yards. I attribute that to them being sized big enough. The throat on mine was .356 so I went over .001 in sizing. Actually, I started with a .357 Lee push through die which sizes them closer to .3565, but still no issues. Once I got the 356-120-TC, I got the 4500 and a .357 die and that's what they come out at.

One more note. I have yet to get leading with the TL bullets, not even antimony wash, which it appears is unusual reading the forum. I am using straight LLA, lubing before and after sizing. I tried the formula with JPW and LLA and it resulted in some wash from the TL bullet I didn't see before so I went back to LLA only. I use Lyman Alox stick lube with the 356-120-TC and get a small amount of antimony wash with it, but no leading. I've stopped cleaning it until the action starts getting goobered up with residue, etc. I typically use COWW with 2% tin or 50/50 COWW and PB and 2% tin. I age harden mine for several weeks before loading them.

Good luck



OK I found a thread here about trouble with lee 124gr six cavity tumble lube bullets causing keyholes. I'm having the same trouble they keyhole in 5 different 9mm pistols, tangfuglio 9mm, s&w m&P, keltec pf9, and 2 XDs. They are sized in a .356 sizer and loaded at 3.8 gr titegroup. I used the dillon expander plug. Should I be shooting .358? Using straight wheel weights. Powder coat and lee tumble lube do the same about 40% of them keyhole.

Any suggestions. This only happens with this bullet type and weight. I'm also getting a lot of leading.