30x57 & 35x57

[Larry Gibson]

Based on a couple posts I made in other threads several members have PM'd me for more info on the two cartridges I mentioned for cast bullets in Mauser rifles. These are the 30x57 and the 35x57. Both are made from 8x57 cases by simply FL sizing them in the shortened '06 or 35 Whelen die. They can also be formed from '06 or similar cases which allows customizing the case to fit the chamber.

These two cartridges have 5 major attributes;

First is the case is perfect for Mauser actions. The length is correct allowing for heavier bullets to be used without seating them below the case necks. The case taper is the Mauser taper that the magazine and feed rails are made for, hence they feed slicker than the scum off a Lousianna swamp.

Second is case capacity; It is just slightly more than a .308/.358 Winchester so with correct medium or slower burning powders loading density is close to 100% when using medium and heavier cast bullets in the 2200+ velocity range.

Third is; The long '06 length neck. This allows most bullets to be seated to the base of the neck and the lube grooves are covered. Also the longer neck gives additional support to the bullet during initial accelleration.

Fourth is; the ease of which cases are made and the fact that regular dies are used. No special custom dies are required. I shorten the dies .288" for both cartridges. With both the FL and seater shortened you are set to go. Though I'd also use a shortened NS die.

The fifth attribute is in chambering; I shorten the dies and form 3 cases. These are used as headspace guages. The barrel is then chambered using standard '06 or 35 Whelen reamers. A tight neck match reamer for the '06 might be better though for the 30x57. Both reamers are readily availabel to rent or buy so no custom reamer is involved.

I'm looking at ordering a pre-threaded Shilen 26" match stainless barrel with a 14" twist (for either caliber) for a Sporter M98 of mine. I've already got the '06 reamer so I might go that route. Below is the shortened 30x57 FL die, a 30x57, a 8x57 and an '06. Note that the neck on the 30x57 is longer than the 8x57. The 30x57 case is formed from an '06 case and is trimmed to the max AOL the chamber of my reamer allows. This is another attribute for both cartridges is that cases can be formed for and exact fit to the chamber. This is especially benificial in the neck area when using cast bullets at higher pressure/velocities. Sorry I don't have any 35x57 as the dies went with a guy who already has one and loves it. The 35x57 is the same as the 30x57 so you should get the picture (is that a pun?).

Anyways I've pondered a long time as to the best cast bullet cartridge for a practical hunting rifle built on a Mauser action and these two cartridges are what I believe to be the best answer. Hard choice to make between them.

Larry Gibson

[Johnch]

I like both !!

I almost bought a 9 X 57 last fall

How dose your 35 x 57 differ from it ?

John

[racepres]

Thanks Larry... I love Simple!!! MV

[Blammer]

that 35x57 looks good and tempting!

do you need to have custom dies made for it? What dies do you use? I read the above but just didn't get it..

[Larry Gibson]

I like both !!

I almost bought a 9 X 57 last fall

How dose your 35 x 57 differ from it ?

John

The last factory ammo I saw for the 9x57 was Speer/DWM with a 247 gr bullet listed at 2310 fps. The 35x57 has just a tudge less capcity do to the slightly longer neck. The guy I sold the dies to is getting right at 2200 fps with a 358009 which is around 280 gr if I recall correctly. I do not know the load. I figure 2200+ fps with a Saeco #352 245 gr FP or upwards of 2400 fps with the 35-200-FP RCBS. RPM is 113,207 and 123,499 respectfully so accuracy should be quite good at those velocities.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

that 35x57 looks good and tempting!

do you need to have custom dies made for it? What dies do you use? I read the above but just didn't get it..

Blammer

That's one of the really nice things about both cartridges; no custom dies needed. The 30x57 die in the photo is a standard RCBS FL die that has just been shortened .288". The seating die is shortened the same amount as is a neck size die. RCBS standard dies all.

The 35x57 dies I had were also standard 35 Whelen RCBS dies that were shortened the same .288".

No custom reamers needed either, standard 30-06 and 35 whelen reamers are used.

Larry Gibson

[Blammer]

cool! How do you shortend the die?

[nicholst55]

One of the gun writers has been championing a .338X57 cartridge for a while, though I can't recall just who. I read an article he wrote and I wondered what it would do that either .338 Federal, .338-08, .358 Winchester, or just plain old 8X57mm Mauser wouldn't do? He never did explain that to my satisfaction, so I pushed it out of my mind until right now.

If there were a better selection of .323" j-word bullets available in this country suitable for use at 8X57mm velocities, I honestly don't see what a .338 would do that it won't. A .35X57 now, that's a different matter entirely! You could use 250 and 275 grain bullets, assuming that you could move them fast enough to expand them. Otherwise a 200 or 220-225 grain bullet would be the way to go. There's a much better selection of boolits available in .358" than there is in .323, also!

[No_1]

I remember a gun writer that had an original sporter mauser who's barrel was in very bad shape. He wanted to keep the original barrel with markings so he had it bored to .338 and did the 338 x 57. I do not remember who it was but the article was good.

R.



One of the gun writers has been championing a .338X57 cartridge for a while, though I can't recall just who. I read an article he wrote and I wondered what it would do that either .338 Federal, .338-08, .358 Winchester, or just plain old 8X57mm Mauser wouldn't do? He never did explain that to my satisfaction, so I pushed it out of my mind until right now.

If there were a better selection of .323" j-word bullets available in this country suitable for use at 8X57mm velocities, I honestly don't see what a .338 would do that it won't. A .35X57 now, that's a different matter entirely! You could use 250 and 275 grain bullets, assuming that you could move them fast enough to expand them. Otherwise a 200 or 220-225 grain bullet would be the way to go. There's a much better selection of boolits available in .358" than there is in .323, also!

[theperfessor]

Larry -

How would a 8x57 case (rimless) in .375 caliber compare with a .38/55 (rimmed) in terms of case capacity and capability? It seems like there is a pretty good selection of .375 boolits and barrels to choose from because of the interest in the .38/55. See where I'm going here?

[racepres]

Problem , as I see it is... There is Not a .375/'06... That I know of... The beauty of this system [to me] is the Simplicity!!! MV

[Marlin Junky]

Larry,

After shorten the FL die .288", what is the resulting head diameter of a full-length sized case? Having never personal chambered a rifle barrel, I'm wondering how easy it would be for a gunsmith to chamber to deeply. Wouldn't one need go/no-go headspace gages to properly chamber for the 30x57 and 35x57?

MJ

[racepres]

The last time I needed a go/no-go gauge set, it was for the '06... IE 6mm-'06 to 35 Whelen. [the headspace dimension is the same!! So.... an _X57 gauge would still be the ticket... No matter what ya call it!!! Or... as w/ most true Wildcats... the formed ctg, IS the gauge also.. But I don't of course know all there is to it!! MV

[Trailblazer]

I played with a similar cartridge last year. I shortened and rethreaded a 30-06 barrel to fit a Big Bore Winchester. I shortened 30-06 dies and then used 444 Marlin brass. I only shot it with j-bullets so far but I have been planning to load some RCBS 180's one of these days. The picture shows a 444 case, reformed 444 case, 30-30, shortened 30-06 case and a 30-06 case.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/556/2394730-06-260_R.jpg

[Scrounger]

Problem , as I see it is... There is Not a .375/'06... That I know of... The beauty of this system [to me] is the Simplicity!!! MV

I think I have heard mention of a .375 Whelan and even a .400 Whelan. Supposedly not enough shoulder to get consistent headspace on. You could use the .444 Marlin case necked down to .375 (.375 JDJ). A little work getting it to feed I suppose.

[Bret4207]

Problem , as I see it is... There is Not a .375/'06... That I know of... The beauty of this system [to me] is the Simplicity!!! MV

As Scrounger stated, the 375 Whelen, 375-'06, has been around since the 20's or 30's. Nice cartridge.

This idea of necking the 8mm down intrigues me. How about a 284x57? Be just about the perfect medium game cartridge. Oh wait, .284=7mm=7x57.......never mind. There goes my million$$$$$$$. :mrgreen:

[Ricochet]

Seems like a lot of trouble to go to when the 8x57 is such a good cartridge already...

[MT Gianni]

The advantage I could see would be bullet availability. You can have a great shooting bullet made for the 8mm or find one. With the 35 there are so many it fuels a tinkerer's fream not to mention that checks are easier to find and cheaper. That is probably why the term "need" mentioned with any gun is guaranteed to get a laugh from a wife. Gianni

[racepres]

As Scrounger stated, the 375 Whelen, 375-'06, has been around since the 20's or 30's. Nice cartridge.


Darn that COW... Does indeed mention them.. but my printing merely mentions... I'm the kinda guy that needs Pictures!!!! Darned if COW don't prominently display the 10.75X57 though... No matter .. I stand corrected.. MV

[Larry Gibson]

racepres

RE our traffic about the .300 Savage with a longer neck. Here's a couple shots of my PMCBC .308. The left is the PMCBC and the right is a .308 Win. The PMCBC has close to the same capacity as the .300 Savage. However I've had nothing but feeding problems with the PMCBC in all Mausers except the single column magazine ones. I had to do considerable alteration to the M1916 action I barreled to it to get it to feed.

Remember the 30 and 35x57s are designed with Mauser actions in mind.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

After shorten the FL die .288", what is the resulting head diameter of a full-length sized case? Having never personal chambered a rifle barrel, I'm wondering how easy it would be for a gunsmith to chamber to deeply. Wouldn't one need go/no-go headspace gages to properly chamber for the 30x57 and 35x57?

MJ

The head diameter is the same. Regular FL dies do not size cases down to original specs. Thus with the shortened die the head of the case is not sized. Actually makes for a tigher match die. Also it's the same for using a standard reamer but reaming the chamber short for these cartridges. The chambers then have tighter "match chamber" specs. It's a win/win all around.

When You shorten the die .288" you form 3 cases and either use or have the gunsmith use them as "go" guages to headspace the chamber. The chamber is reamed deep enough that you just feel the bolt close on the case. It's not hard to do but you must be patient and careful doing the last cut or two with the reamer. Thus the chamber is headspaced to the specific cartridge you are forming in the FL die, not some generic "headspace dimension that may or may not be a good fit.
A custom chamber is all it amounts to.

By forming cases from '06 or Whelen cases (using unfired factory cases would be my choice for the two cartridges) you can then trim the neck to the length of reamer neck for a more perfect case to chamber fit.

Larry Gibson

[Mk42gunner]

Larry,

Since you were talking about using a pre threaded barrel; is it short cahambered too? The reason I ask is that the shoulder on the 30 X 57 is further back than the shoulder of an '06 case. Will the chamber clean up, or do you start with a totally unchambered barrel?

Otherwise this sounds like a well thought out series of cartridges.


Robert

[racepres]

Larry; I got ya on all that... in the mauser .. nothing feeds like the ctg it was meant for!!! I did get a 284 Win to feed in a yugo... but I don't need those hassels again! Heck my 35 Rem aint "just so" yet Been fighting w/ the darn savage just cause I felt that the case capacity was good for my intended purpose, We kill alot of steel plates around here!!! But I can see that barrel being a X57... Real soon.. Soon as I get an '06 reamer.
MV

[JDL]

Dog gone it Larry, I've already tried to scratch this itch! I rebarreled a M. 70 in 7X57 to .358 but, there's a little more magazine that needs filling and I had flirted with the idea of necking the 57mm case up to .35 cal. Now, here you come and provide pics and I start "thinking" again.:-) Thanks for the post. -JDL

[Larry Gibson]

Larry; I got ya on all that... in the mauser .. nothing feeds like the ctg it was meant for!!! I did get a 284 Win to feed in a yugo... but I don't need those hassels again! Heck my 35 Rem aint "just so" yet Been fighting w/ the darn savage just cause I felt that the case capacity was good for my intended purpose, We kill alot of steel plates around here!!! But I can see that barrel being a X57... Real soon.. Soon as I get an '06 reamer.
MV

Assuming you mean a 35 Wheln reamer?

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

Since you were talking about using a pre threaded barrel; is it short cahambered too? The reason I ask is that the shoulder on the 30 X 57 is further back than the shoulder of an '06 case. Will the chamber clean up, or do you start with a totally unchambered barrel?

Otherwise this sounds like a well thought out series of cartridges.


Robert

With the 35x57 cartridge I'd get the pre-threaded barrel short chambered in 35 Remington. The 35 Whelen reamer then is used to finish ream the chamber to headspace on the formed 35x57 cases. With the 30x57 a pre-threaded barrel in 300 Savage might do as well but I'd have to check and calculate a little more to be sure. You gan also get just a pre-threaded barrel that isn't chambered and do it all your self. Not that difficult as you can use the finish reamer (pretty hard on them though) or use a rough reammer first. If you know what you're doing and have access to a lathe you can use a drill bit of the right size to rough the chamber out.

If you have a SR Mauser you can order the pre-threaded 26" Shilen in 35 Rem with 14" twist and then finish ream it with the 35 Whelen reamer to 35x57. Such was my plan but the M91 Mauser shoots so well in 35 Rem that I can bring myself to do it. I've a sporterized Mexican SR M98 that I'd do one of them on but I've put a new milsurp M38 6.5 Swede barrel on it and it shoots to well to take it off. I may just take the PMCBC barrel off the M1916 and make it a 35x57. Then I've got my old commercial M98 sporter that I've hunted with for years. The '06 barrrel's throat is going fast so a nice 26" barrel with a 14" twist chambered to 30x57 would be a great cast bullet hunting rifle. A bullet like 311041 at 2400 fps would nicely have killed 99% of the deer I shot over the years.

So much to do, so little time. Why do I hallucinate these projects up............

Larry Gibson

[Uncle Grinch]

With the 35x57 cartridge I'd get the pre-threaded barrel short chambered in 35 Remington. The 35 Whelen reamer then is used to finish ream the chamber to headspace on the formed 35x57 cases. With the 30x57 a pre-threaded barrel in 300 Savage might do as well but I'd have to check and calculate a little more to be sure. You gan also get just a pre-threaded barrel that isn't chambered and do it all your self. Not that difficult as you can use the finish reamer (pretty hard on them though) or use a rough reammer first. If you know what you're doing and have access to a lathe you can use a drill bit of the right size to rough the chamber out.

If you have a SR Mauser you can order the pre-threaded 26" Shilen in 35 Rem with 14" twist and then finish ream it with the 35 Whelen reamer to 35x57. Such was my plan but the M91 Mauser shoots so well in 35 Rem that I can bring myself to do it. I've a sporterized Mexican SR M98 that I'd do one of them on but I've put a new milsurp M38 6.5 Swede barrel on it and it shoots to well to take it off. I may just take the PMCBC barrel off the M1916 and make it a 35x57. Then I've got my old commercial M98 sporter that I've hunted with for years. The '06 barrrel's throat is going fast so a nice 26" barrel with a 14" twist chambered to 30x57 would be a great cast bullet hunting rifle. A bullet like 311041 at 2400 fps would nicely have killed 99% of the deer I shot over the years.

So much to do, so little time. Why do I hallucinate these projects up............

Larry Gibson

I love the way you "hallucinate" !

Wish I could do the same.

[thaxted]

With the 35x57 cartridge I'd get the pre-threaded barrel short chambered in 35 Remington. The 35 Whelen reamer then is used to finish ream the chamber to headspace on the formed 35x57 cases. With the 30x57 a pre-threaded barrel in 300 Savage might do as well but I'd have to check and calculate a little more to be sure. You gan also get just a pre-threaded barrel that isn't chambered and do it all your self. Not that difficult as you can use the finish reamer (pretty hard on them though) or use a rough reammer first. If you know what you're doing and have access to a lathe you can use a drill bit of the right size to rough the chamber out.

If you have a SR Mauser you can order the pre-threaded 26" Shilen in 35 Rem with 14" twist and then finish ream it with the 35 Whelen reamer to 35x57. Such was my plan but the M91 Mauser shoots so well in 35 Rem that I can bring myself to do it. I've a sporterized Mexican SR M98 that I'd do one of them on but I've put a new milsurp M38 6.5 Swede barrel on it and it shoots to well to take it off. I may just take the PMCBC barrel off the M1916 and make it a 35x57. Then I've got my old commercial M98 sporter that I've hunted with for years. The '06 barrrel's throat is going fast so a nice 26" barrel with a 14" twist chambered to 30x57 would be a great cast bullet hunting rifle. A bullet like 311041 at 2400 fps would nicely have killed 99% of the deer I shot over the years.

So much to do, so little time. Why do I hallucinate these projects up............

Larry Gibson

You're not alone by any means.
A number years ago,(1994 I think) I acquired a 1940 K98 with a mismatched bolt and a very poor bore. I took it to an old gunsmith/barrelmaker who did cut rifling in his little shop out in central Alberta.

I had him drill and rifle the existing barrel to .358x12inch twist and throat it with I think a 35 Remington reamer. This gave me a chamber with the original 7.92 shoulder but throated to accept standard American 35 caliber bullets.

I made cartridges by annealing .270win or .30-06 cartridges and running them through an 8x57 FL die adjusted off the shell holder to fix any unforeseen headspace problems. A session with the case trimmer got them to the correct length followed by a trip over a .358 expander, and I was ready to load.

I think I used about 44grs of 3031 and also the same charge of 4064. It seems to me that the velocities with a 250gr Hornady bullet was between 2250 and 2300 fps. I had problems using .357 pistol bullets and light charges. Repeated loadings seemed to set the shoulder back and give headspace problems. It was like the weight of the Mauser striker was so great that bolt face driven ahead into the chambered cartridge would set the shoulder back a bit. When the light charge of pistol powder lit, I imagine the neck seized the chamber but the pressure wasn't great enough stretch the cartridge out again and the condition got worse with each firing.

I never did try cast in it ( I have an unused mold 358315) But I did once shoot a skunk with a 250 gr bullet. The old saying about dead is dead and you can't accomplish much beyond that comes to mind.:mrgreen:

It was an interesting project, but I never really brought it to any kind of conclusion, so with a lot of other things to do besides fool with guns, all my casting and shooting has been on hold for a long time with my 9.1x57mm project.

What you are proposing is actually a lot more practical idea for two reasons.
Firstly, by trimming a 35Whelen FL die you then have a full length die. With the way I was doing things, once my cartridges were the least bit sticky or stretched I had no way of full length sizing. It was neck size only with a .358win die and the same for bullet seating.
Secondly, by using a 35Whelen chamber reamer you have a way of producing new barrels. My method presupposes an existing barrel with good chamber.
One last thing too comes to mind, the cartridge you suggest should have greater powder capacity by virtue of a slightly greater width at the shoulder.
Reading this thread gives me the urge to make time to dig that old rifle out of storage and take another crack at it.:Fire:

[Bass Ackward]

Reading this thread gives me the urge to make time to dig that old rifle out of storage and take another crack at it.:Fire:


Many people look too hard for new experiences when a reward for such effort can be found down a road with an old friend.

[Blammer]

I have a question.

I looked at a drawing of the 8x57 and the 35 whelen.

All dimensions seem to be the same except the case body dia just before the shoulder starts.

the 8mm has .434 dia and the 35 whelen has .441. They both start at the bottom dia of .469 or .470 (not enough to matter) but end at different diameters which give a different taper angle for feeding.

If you use the 35 whelen reamer to make the chamber in the 35 cal barrel you'll no doubt need the 35 whelen die shortened to resize back to dimensions when FL sizing. This is fine. To a point you will have a "blown out" 8mm case, although it is small.

My question is will the difference in body taper from the 8mm to the new 35x57 in any way hinder the feeding of the cartridge in the action? the 35x57 being a more straight taper than the 8mm?

[racepres]

Blammer: Let me say that I doubt it.. based on the experience of converting to rounds including the 22-250 to the current 35 rem.. including a 300WSM.. The conversion considered here should be a "piece of cake" and the gun nor shooter should know the difference.. But... sometimes even the intended ctg.. won't feed slick.. MV

[DonH]

One of the gun writers has been championing a .338X57 cartridge for a while, though I can't recall just who. I read an article he wrote and I wondered what it would do that either .338 Federal, .338-08, .358 Winchester, or just plain old 8X57mm Mauser wouldn't do? He never did explain that to my satisfaction, so I pushed it out of my mind until right now.

If there were a better selection of .323" j-word bullets available in this country suitable for use at 8X57mm velocities, I honestly don't see what a .338 would do that it won't. A .35X57 now, that's a different matter entirely! You could use 250 and 275 grain bullets, assuming that you could move them fast enough to expand them. Otherwise a 200 or 220-225 grain bullet would be the way to go. There's a much better selection of boolits available in .358" than there is in .323, also!

This is a quite old idea, or rather, wildcat. A .338" bullet (actually may have originally been .333) in a necked-up 57mm Mauser case, it was called .33-50 O'Neil after the gent who developed it. Mr O'Neil was he of OKH fame. I would have to refresh my memory but the "50" represented the powder whicj IIRC 4350. The round was the subject of an article in HANDLOADER 20+ years ago. It stuck in my mind because I am a longtime admirer of the Mauser cartridges. Actually had thought about the .30x57 idea but never did anything about it. Mausers just feed so slick with cases they were designed for.

[Larry Gibson]

Blammer

You want to remember that with the 35x57 you are setting the shoulder back farther on the 8x57 case. Thus the shoulder dimension of the formed 35x57 case is wider at the shoulder than the 8x57. Granted probably not as wide as a fire formed case but as you say the shortened FL die used for forming is also used for FL sizing. A shortened 35 Whelen NS would work fine for neck sizing.

Been a while since I've had any of the 35x57 cases but I've formed five 30x57s loaded with 312-185s and five loaded with FMJs. They feed skicker than snot through every Mause (LR & SR) that I have which is quite a few. Not a single failure to feed.

Larry Gibson

[youngun]

I really like the idea. It could easily be done in AI versions as well, since the reamers for 30- and 35- cal aren't all that rare.
If you figure COL of 3.10", a case length of 2.24" you could have any bullet you want, seated where you like; the Whelen's nominal .46" neck gives you 1.320" of bullet before getting into the case. (!) Make the case body 1.827" and the Whelen's .460" neck and you'll still clear the 8mm case when forming, and that'll leave you 1.19" from the neck, pleeenty for even up to 300g.
We're talking 300g, .380" ogive, 60% meplat, 3 lube grooves and you're sitting just over 3.09". I'm thinking the right 24" bbl would push these out a bit over 2000 fps.

[youngun]

On second thought, further beauty of this idea is that you could really cut the chamber and grind the dies right around the bullet you want to shoot. Grind the die down to where the base of the neck = COL - bullet length, and then trim to leave a neck the length of bullet grooves. Within limits, this could work very easily.
Larry, how far have you gotten with this project? Is there a rifle? Load data?

[Larry Gibson]

There is a rifle, a 35x57, that was made some years back when I lived in Oregon. I have lost contact with the owner for the last several years. I've no data for that cartridge. However any data for a 358 Winchester should be pretty close but slightly on the short side.

I've the dies made for the 30x57 and am going to rebarrel a nice M98 sporter I've had for years as soon as I get really retired. That rifle has been my main hunting rifle and the throat is pretty rough and it's about shot out. It's an '06. I've not spent much time at home last year and this year so far. I think that will change here shortly though. I'm looking at a 26" Shilem match barrel with a 14" twist of heavy sporter contour. .308/307 Win data will make good starting loads.

I had intended on chambering the M91 Mauser .35 ARem to 35x57 when I got done playing with it in 35 Rem. Problem is it does so well in 35 Rem I can't bring myself to do it. I've an '9 Argentine M98 action so it may very well end up a 35x57.

Larry Gibson

[GrizzLeeBear]

I really like the idea. It could easily be done in AI versions as well, since the reamers for 30- and 35- cal aren't all that rare...

Not that they wouldn't be a good cartridge, but a 30x57 AI would be, well, basically a 30-06 and a 35x57 AI would basically be a 35 Whelen. Also, I think what Larry is after is to keep the mauser tapered case to prevent any possible feeding issues. Straighter cases sometimes (but not always) have feeding issues in mausers. The standard 57mm case capacity is just about optimum for cast boolit performance and would not really fit in a short action anyway so theres no advantage to an improved case, and it fits perfect in the action it was designed for.

[youngun]

Sure, GLB. Just threw the "AI" thing out there as a possibility. I was otherwise referring to the original idea. Seems that case length with a Whelen-length neck would really be more neck than you'd need. Once you know where the shoulder/neck junction is relative to the COL, you can figure something like 1.25" is a loooong ways away. Larry, if I understand you, you're cutting the '06 case down by .288 which gives you a 2.206" case and a 1.66" body length. You'd need a bullet 1.35+" long (think 350g!) to make use of that at 3.1" COL.
The 8x57's body is nominally 1.819-27" long (CIP vs SAAMI) but this case would lose some 9% powder capacity, closer to the 358W than the x57 case. so if we go short, then we could say:
1.819 + .546 (Whelen from start of shoulder to casemouth)=
2.365" case length which would give you the actual powder room of the x57 and the long neck of the '06 case, ability to use Whelen dies, happy-long neck and reasonable seating length for heavy bullets. (Around 1.2" from base of neck to COL, plus whatever you'll allow for gas checks into the shoulder: perfect for the 300g'ers.)
There's also the issue of the throat you're left with. Many of the wide meplats make you lose up to 100 thou in cartridge length, but setting the chamber back .130" in this way gives you right about that much difference anyway since the round is .230" shorter.
You'd have to call it the 358x60mm, but these are the sacrifices we make for the perfect round.:mrgreen:
Then again, trim to 2.244 and you've got the nomenclature secured again, albeit at the cost of having "only" .341" neck. Almost as short as the 35 R....
:drinks:

[Yes, too much time on my hands. Kids are napping.]

[pipehand]

I've been following this thread because I picked up a Yugo 48 really cheap- like for $20 less than the cost of the Huber trigger that was installed in it. The action is good, the barrel is rough, and the stock looks like hell. Even if it was free, I'll eventually have more into it than if I bought a new rembrowwinsavage. But, I would really like to turn it into a cast bullet shooter. I already have two .308 bolt guns,and several 30 cal moulds. I could put a replacement 8mm bbl on the gun, but have no desire to get into 8mm casting. I thought, maybe a 358Win barrel would be nice, but I would like to go with a longer neck and heavy bullets. The 35x57 concept appeals to me, but why couldn't I just run x57 brass into a 358 win die and be done with it? how much different is the 35x57 from the 9x57 Mauser?

[Trailblazer]

I haven't fired any cast boolits in my version of the 30x57. I have pushed 150 Core Lokts to 2800 with 47 grains Varget and also 46 grains BL(C)-2. 52 grains H414 did 2660 with the 150's.

[youngun]

35x57 concept appeals to me, but why couldn't I just run x57 brass into a 358 win die and be done with it? how much different is the 35x57 from the 9x57 Mauser?
Well, the difference in body length of the 9x57 and the Whelen is .1291" so it all depends on how short you make your FLS die when you set up the "go" guage. The case I was describing (2.365") would for all intents be a longnecked 9x57 with a Whelen shoulder. (Case at shoulder is .4410 vs 9x57's .4312, but quite negligable.) Getting myself worked up thinking about it.
Larry, are you maybe thinking of a 35-8x57 Imp out in OR? Seems I heard of such a chambering when I was up there, cannot recall where.

[Larry Gibson]

...... The 35x57 concept appeals to me, but why couldn't I just run x57 brass into a 358 win die and be done with it? how much different is the 35x57 from the 9x57 Mauser?

Well I suppose you could run the 8x57 case into the 358 Win die and be done wit it except that you wouldn't be done with it. If the 358 Win case with a long neck (that's what you'd have) feeds in your M48 (neither the 308 or 358 Win feeds reliably in my 2 M48s) it would require a custom reamer for te chamber and custom dies for loading as the standard 358 dies aren't that compatable with accurate loading of the longer necked cartridge. Both will be expensive.

Keep in mind the original premiss for the two cartridges (30 & 35 x57) is;

1. Use cases with Mauser taper to ensure reliable feeding through Mauser actions with no modification to the action needed.

2. Use of standard dies with simple modification.

3. Use of standard reamers.

4. Have case capacity for 2300-2400+ fps using medium to slow burning powders with medium to heavy for caliber cast bullets.

Those 4 reasons provide for a suitable cast bullet cartridge for use in Mauser actions at a quite reasonable price.

I've not had a 9x57 so I can only compare by interpretation between it and the 35x57 cartridge. Appears to me to be little difference in performance between the two.

Larry Gibson

[Trailblazer]

For those who want to calculate velocities. My version of the 30x57, which is a few thousandths longer than Larry's, held about 61 grains of water to the mouth.

[bruce drake]

Just reading through this thread and I have a few questions. How much of a difference between the .30x57mm and a 7.7 Arisaka (7.7x58mm) cartridges? Other than the extra millimeter of case length of the 7.7 Arisaka and the more common bullet selection for the 30x57.

I own an early series T99 that with the chromed bore shoots .310 cast bullets quite accurately. Of course I also own a last-ditch T99 that the bore measures .315 so I know you'd have to find a quality Arisaka to replicate the performance of the custom .30x57mm

[DonH]

I have for several years toyed with the idea of a 7x57 necked up to .30. It is tempting if as easily done as Larry describes. But then what if I had a good 7mm bullet?

Re: .338x57, you have been beaten to that one. Mr. ONeill of OKH fame did that except I believe he used the old .333 bullets and 50 grains of powder. He called it .33-50 O'Nieill.

[Char-Gar]

In days gone by I had an original Mauser sporter in 9 X 57 and it is a fine round for US hunting, better in my opinion than the 358 Winchester for the reasons Larry set out in his original post.

Cases were easy to make by three different ways;

1. Expand the neck of 8 X 57 cases

2. Fire form the necks of 8 X 57 by putting in a few grains of Bulleye, filling the case with COW and shooting at the sky.

3. I formed allot of cases from 30-06 cases with an old Lyman Shell Resizer and an arbor press. I still have that old hand die. Of course they needed to be shortened.

[runfiverun]

your case capacity is super close to the 7.7,303,7.65 and the 54-R.
I have used, or modified slightly, data from all of those cases in the 30 x 57 [30 XCB]

[Bjornb]

For those who follow this sort of trivia, the reamer for the 35x57 (35XCB) has been ordered from PTG and will be delivered to Goodsteel in a few weeks. Tim has modified a set of Redding dies (35 Whelen) for case forming.

The first rifle will be built on an FN Mauser action, using a Douglas barrel (sporter weight, 1:14 twist) and a McMillan Hunter stock.

While I have used all the above cartridges mentioned by R5R as references for loading the 30 XCB, my standby QL "surrogate" is the 30-40 Krag, with the RCBS 165 SIL bullet subbing for the NOE 165 (XCB) bullet. It usually comes pretty close to the actual velocity (I have no way to measure pressure).

[bruce drake]

Weird question. Can a 358 Winchester barrel be rechambered for 35x57? Or is the 358 Win to 35x57 have the same issues as trying to cut a 30-06 chamber out of a 308 Win barrel.?

[runfiverun]

the x57 rounds surely do much better on the mauser or a long action.
I have had some of my x57 rounds made up on short actions,, but...
you really have to be careful about your throat length versus magazine length, and extraction of a loaded round can be a pain through the smaller window.

I had a 6x57 in particular [on a model 700] that really liked the heavier bullets, so it become a single shot on the short action by default.
littlegirl did not appreciate that she had a single shot deer rifle and a not so accurate varmint rifle all at once.

[Larry Gibson]

Weird question. Can a 358 Winchester barrel be rechambered for 35x57? Or is the 358 Win to 35x57 have the same issues as trying to cut a 30-06 chamber out of a 308 Win barrel.?

Depends on what the barrel is threaded for and how much shank is left. Both have to be set back enough for the case taper to clean up the forward case taper at the shoulder of the .358W chamber as it is larger in diameter at the shoulder than is an 35 Whelen chamber at that location. Doesn't have to be set back much (usually .5" +/- does it) but essentially the "issues" are the same.

Larry Gibson

[bruce drake]

THat was what I was thinking. I have a .358Win Bull Barrel set on a Mauser 98 LR action. It works pretty good but this is a possible shift if I ever burn the throat out...