.351 Lee Dies?

[Battis]

I bought a set of Lee .351 Winchester SL dies on ebay for $60 & shipping. The seller said they were a special order from Lee. They got here quickly, they had the correct shell holder, they were stamped 351 SL. I lubed up a few fired .351 cases and ran them through the full length sizer. It sized the cases exactly as my .38 Special dies do. Exactly. No neck tension.
Hmmm...

[beagle]

I've been load .351s in .357 dies for years. They work just fine./beagle

[Battis]

What about the neck tension? I tried my 38/357 dies and the case mouth was too big to hold the bullet.

[Tatume]

The bullet for this rifle is supposed to be 0.351" diameter, and the case should 0.373" diameter at the mouth. That indicates a case wall thickness of 0.011", the same as the 357 Magnum (which is 0.357" & 0.379" respectively). Therefore it seems unlikely that 357 Magnum dies would reduce the case sufficiently to hold a 0.351" bullet. Try seating a 0.357" bullet in a case sized with your new 351 SL die. I suspect that your die is a 38/357 die that has been incorrectly marked.

[Battis]

I measured the outside diameter of several more (fired) sized case mouths (sized with the .351 die) and sure enough, this time they came out at .373. The inside diameter, as accurately as I could measure, was .352. But these cases would not hold a .351 bullet - it slid right in.
I pulled a loaded .351 bullet and ran the case through the .351 die. The die did not change the diameter of the case mouth at all.
For some reason, the fired brass case mouths are not sizing down in this die. Would annealing help?


A .357 bullet won't seat in the .351 sized cases without expanding the case mouth.

[Tatume]

It appears that your die is not sizing the case sufficiently. I wonder if this may be why the seller got rid of them. It could be that when he special-ordered the dies from Lee he specified the diameter without knowing that the finished diameter of the loaded ammunition is not the correct spec for the resized case. The case mouth should be 0.373" with a bullet seated, and should be somewhat smaller than that before the bullet is seated.

At this point you might want to call RCBS and ask them to what size their dies reduce cases (RCBS #:56423-Die Set-I). I suspect they will tell you 0.370" or so.

RCBS: (800) 379-1732

[Battis]

We'll see how well the No Hassle Returns works. Redding also makes a die set for that caliber.
Thanks for the RCBS info.

[C. Latch]

Try some .352" bullets? Maybe .3525? Put a tiny dent in the case before trying to seat bullets?

[Battis]

I ordered 100 .351 copper coated bullets from Buffalo Arms - that's what is in their loaded ammo. To use .352 cast, I'd have to size from .358 to .355 then .352. Lee bullet sizing dies are $36 each (2 needed) plus shipping. A Lee collet neck sizing die would be about $70 plus shipping and I'd have to send them 2 fire formed cases and the bullet I want to use, which I don't have since I haven't bought the bullet sizing dies.
I'll give Redding a call Monday. Their dies are about $82.

[Charley]

I've got the Redding dies, no problems.

[Battis]

That's what I get for trying to save a few bucks.

[C. Latch]

Ouch.

(really, ouch......I have a .351 and the expense is stopping me from gearing up to load for it. I would LOVE to shoot it).

Where are you paying $36 for Lee push-through sizers? I think I'd ask Buckshot here on the fourms to make me a sizer before I paid $36 for a Lee. Most of mine cost around $16 each.

[Battis]

That's the price Lee gave me for the dies. I didn't know they were available here.
The cost for brass and bullets isn't bad, and the Redding dies are reasonable - RCBS dies are around $180. If I could just get some neck tension with the .357 dies, I'd be all set. Maybe a filler to hold the bullet in place for the crimp might work.

[C. Latch]

I have seen the brass for sale before and agree that the prices aren't terrible; I just can't fund every project I want right now. I look forward to seeing pics of how your shoots, though.

[Battis]

I called Redding - their die sizes the case mouth of the .351 to .365 (outside diameter). The Lee die that I just bought sizes them to .373. That is the problem.

[JRLesan]

FWIW: I recently bought a collet closer die from Lee for the .351 WSL and it was a stock item costing in the vicinity of $25.00. My '70's vintage RCBS dies (.351WSL) don't really size the brass down where one would need to flare (or bell) the case mouth either; thus the reasoning behind the Lee crimp die. John Henwood, in his book on the Winchester self loaders, describes reloading using .38 Spl/.357 dies for the .351. I could measure no difference in sized cases using carbide .357 dies (of RCBS manufacture circa 1980) or .351 WSL steel dies. Jacketed bullets press into my sized cases using finger pressure but I use the seater for consistency.

[C. Latch]

So could the OP use such a collet closer die on his cases before seating and get by without another die set?

[texassako]

Lee even has that die in stock on their custom crimp die overruns page.

[Battis]

Lee told me that they have "surplus" factory crimp dies for the .351 for $25.00. I can crimp the case mouth with my .357 die, but does a crimp take the place of neck tension? The .351 copper coated bullets that I have slide right into the case mouths that have been sized with the Lyman .357 or Lee .351 dies. They'd have to rest on the powder or a filler to hold them in place until I crimped the case mouths.
Redding dies size the mouth (outside diameter) to .365 and the Lee that I bought sizes them to .373 - .374. I'll just go with the Redding dies unless the ebay seller has other Lee dies that size better.
Midway is actually selling a Redding FL sizing die for about $55 but it won't be available until October. What the heck, I might wait for that to come out.
http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/318604/redding-sizer-die-351-winchester-self-loading

[Battis]

The seller agreed to take the dies back for a full refund (I'm out the cost of return shipping). He said it was a "manufacture's error." If one die size is wrong in that special order batch, they're all wrong.

[JRLesan]

An update to my original post: My RCBS .351 dies do actually size the cases .002 smaller than my .357 dies. If one were to size cast bullets to .354 (as Henwood suggests) the .357 dies would work. I use jacketed (home swaged) projectiles which come out at .351 exactly. Out of curiosity, I measured several FMJ projectiles that I bought some years back along with a rifle, cases, and Henwood's book. Those bullets measured .350 and would slip into (.351 sized) cases. Have never shot any of the undersized FMJ's and I doubt I ever would now that I know they are undersized.

[Battis]

I called Redding and they said that the single .351 FL sizing die on the Midway site ($55) should be ready for shipping in about two weeks, not October like the Midway site claims. You pay for it now and Midway won't charge your card until it ships. I don't need the expanding die or seating die (the .357 die should work), and the Redding die does size the brass to the correct dimensions. Not a bad deal.

[C. Latch]

Wait....are you saying I do NOT need a full die set to load .351s if I already have .357 dies? I have multiple sets of .357 dies and if I could load .351 by buying ONE more die instead of THREE, that might bring things down into the realm of reasonableness.

[Battis]

I have a Lee universal expander die. My Lyman .357/.38 3 die set has an expander die. Full length size the die with the Redding die, seat the bullet with the .357 seating die, crimp the case...
Someone with more experience might point out something I missed.
http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/318604/redding-sizer-die-351-winchester-self-loading

[Tatume]

Are you sure the 357 seating die will crimp the 351 SL case?

[C. Latch]

I called Redding - their die sizes the case mouth of the .351 to .365 (outside diameter). The Lee die that I just bought sizes them to .373. That is the problem.

I measured a couple of points on a sized .223 case just now. .355 to .361.

I wonder if yiu could partially size in a .357 die, then partially size in a .233 die, then bell with a .357 then seat/crimp with a .357?

[Battis]

That was The Question that I had so I tried crimping a fired case, and it worked, then I pulled the bullet from a Buffalo Arms round and crimped that case, and it worked. I'm using the Lyman carbide die set.
I made a few dummy rounds using .223 brass - they chambered fine, fit the mag fine, but the rim is too small to eject at all.
The .357 brass chambers and ejects fine but the rim is too big for the mag. I turned down a rim using a drill press to .4075 and it fit the mag and ejected perfectly - just a little too short. I can't find .357 Max brass and the .351 brass is cheap enough through Buffalo Arms.

[C. Latch]

So if I had some .351 brass, in theory I could find a proper shellholder and a sizer, squeeze down some .358" bullets, and make some ammo using my .223 and .357 dies?

That sort of project suits me. Now where do I get a .352" sizer die?

[Battis]

Lee makes bullet sizing dies but you need two (.358 to .355 to .352). $36 each plus shipping.
Buffalo Arms sells brass and copper coated bullets (reasonably priced) and loaded ammo (expensive).
There were some .352 cast bullets on Gunbroker last week but they're not listed now.
.223 brass will not eject.

[Tatume]

If you're sizing jacketed bullets from 0.358" to 0.352" you probably should use two sizing dies as the OP suggests. Also, use Imperial Sizing Die Wax or you will have problems with galling.

If you are sizing cast bullets only one is needed. I regularly size 0.458" bullets to 0.452" with no problems. However, it is important to lube them first or the lube grooves may be obliterated.

I have never reworked copper coated bullets, and am not certain the OP is using correct terminology. He could mean jacketed bullets, or he could be talking about copper plated cast bullets.

[Battis]

These are the Buffalo Arms bullets I mentioned:
http://www.buffaloarms.com/351_Winchester_Self_Loader_it-157068.aspx?CAT=4138

The tech at Lee said that I might be able to size a cast bullet from .358 - .352, but it might need a .355 also.

[Tatume]

These are copper plated cast or swaged lead bullets.

[Battis]

I ordered 100 that should be here soon. That's what they use in their loaded ammo.

[C. Latch]

These are the Buffalo Arms bullets I mentioned:
http://www.buffaloarms.com/351_Winchester_Self_Loader_it-157068.aspx?CAT=4138

The tech at Lee said that I might be able to size a cast bullet from .358 - .352, but it might need a .355 also.

I may ask buckshot what his thoughts are on doing me a .352 die, or maybe doing a 2-step die that starts at .355 then goes to .352.

[beagle]

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/Cast%20in%20the%20.351%20Self%20Loading.pdf/beagle

[Battis]

Since I started this .351 project, I've pulled two loaded cartridges apart and measured the powder inside. One had 17 grs, the other 19 grs (unknown powder, but that's approx. the charge you'd use with 4227). To me, that's a big difference, but I haven't been reloading long. Is that something to be concerned about, not knowing what the powder is, and that each cartridge might be different?

[Tatume]

It will be helpful to use correct terminology. You pulled two cartridges apart, by pulling the bullet from the cartridge case. The bullet is the projectile. I remember reading a news report about a fellow arrested for bomb making. The newspaper said "He had enough gunpowder to make 10,000 bullets." It's hard to read such stuff without a disgruntled comment.

Yes, 12% variation in charge weight is something about which to be concerned. Were these cartridges manufactured by one of the major ammo companies, like Remington or Winchester?

[Safeshot]

If you want to size the case neck to hold the .351 bullets you can try using a .223 sizing die. it will size the neck down in the tapered "body" section of the die. Since the .233 sizing die is tapered in the it can be used to size the neck as small as you want. A proper expanding plug or a "lee universal expanding die" will expand/bell the case mouth/neck for easy bullet seating. This can be done after you use the sizing die that you have, or a .38 Sp./.357 Mag sizing die for the case "body". If you do not have a .223 sizing die, "Titan Reloading" (a sponsor of this forum - located at the top of this page) has the .223 Lee RGB die set listed for $18.73 + shipping. (Then you will have that capability to load .223 as well.) Good luck, Safeshot

[Battis]

Tatume, thou art correct - I used "bullets" instead of "cartridges", though I did use "cartridge" further down in the post. I could have said "I pulled the bullets", but... Anyhoo, I changed the original post. Disgrunted... I mean disgruntled... comment appreciated.
I bought the cartridges (I almost did it again) from Buffalo Arms. I tried to find out what was in the brass thingies when I bought them but could not get an answer.

Safeshot - thanks for that tip (PM sent).

[Safeshot]

Battis, If the crimp die is a "COLLET Crimp (as in "for rifles"), It would be great and would allow you to put ANY amount of crimp desired on the case neck. If it is a carbide sizing ring, floating crimp ring type (as in "for pistol or revolver"), I would NOT recommend it.

[Safeshot]

If you want to size the case neck to hold the .351 bullets you can try using a .223 sizing die. it will size the neck down in the tapered "body" section of the die. Since the .233 sizing die is tapered in the it can be used to size the neck as small as you want. A proper expanding plug or a "lee universal expanding die" will expand/bell the case mouth/neck for easy bullet seating. This can be done after you use the sizing die that you have, or a .38 Sp./.357 Mag sizing die for the case "body". If you do not have a .223 sizing die, "Titan Reloading" (a sponsor of this forum - located at the top of this page) has the .223 Lee RGB die set listed for $18.73 + shipping. (Then you will have that capability to load .223 as well.) Good luck, Safeshot (Hope this helps.)

Also if the Lee Crimp die is a COLLET type die it is GREAT.

PS: I tried to post the first paragraph as a "reply" and as a PM. Only the PM worked. So here it is as a "reply" to the thread (I hope). Safeshot

[Battis]

I have a set of .357 Lyman carbide dies. That crimp die might not be the answer?
I know Lee sells .351 "factory crimp dies."

[C. Latch]

What was the factory bullet weight for the .351? Was it 180?

I know the action was designed to work within some pretty tight parameters; I wonder if a .357 bullet that weighed ~165 grains, sized down to .352, would be heavy enough to make the action work?

I ask because I have a mold coming that should weigh near 165. If I put a PBGC on it it might make 170. Would that function?

[Battis]

I just got the bullets from Buffalo Arms and they are 180 gr (copper coated). I don't know if a lighter bullet would work or not, but it's worth a try. The listed powder loads I've found range from 15 gr to 19 grs (4227). I'll start with the lighter loads.
I just bought a used RCBS .223 die set for cheap money and I'm going to try loading with them and .357 dies. Lee .351 dies were too loose, Redding dies too tight. Redding said they'd look at the dies and maybe open them up a little, but if I can use .357 and .223, what the heck - a lot less money. Lee sells a crimp die for $25 if I need it.
Gotta love this rifle.

[Battis]

So...I returned the Redding dies (too small) and bought a used set of RCBS .223 as Safeshot suggested. I sized a case with the .357 die, then sized the neck with the .223 die and sure enough, it put as much (or little) neck tension as I wanted. I made up a dummy round and seated a bullet, then crimped with the .357 die. It loaded and ejected perfectly.
My only question is the crimp. The .357 crimp held the bullet in place with no creep at all. Would I gain anything by getting a Lee .351 collet crimp? I'm sure it would work better but the roll crimp seems to work.

I took the rifle to the range and fired off a bunch of Buffalo Arms rounds. But first I spread a drop cloth on the ground to keep track of the ejected brass - it's all over the place. Great shooting rifle.

[C. Latch]

I'm jealous. Glad it's working for you!

[C. Latch]

I wanted to update this thread and say that I scrounged some old brass the other day; it appears that they had loaded with pistol primers, as most of the spent primers had holes in them, but, anyway, it's brass.

I will probably anneal it before I tinker with it further, but I guess it goes without saying that I went ahead and cobbled together one loaded round.

I used my 6.8SPC shellholder. I resized a case with the .38/357 carbide sizer, then pushed it a short distance into a .223 sizer to taper it a bit more. I then belled with my .38/357 expander.

For a bullet I took one of my ~160-grain WFN-type .357s (from the recent MiHec group buy, I think it was called a 358-165, mine drop at 159 as hollowpoints) and wrapped it in 3 wraps of newspaper, then ran it through the .358 push-through sizer. Slow and cumbersome, but the bullet came out the other side measuring between .352 and .3525 depending on where I measured.

I then loaded it over what should be a medium charge of 2400 and used the .357 seater to seat to a lube groove (my bullets are powder coated), then crimped in the .357 die. OAL ended up at 1.775 or so.

It'll be a while before I shoot any, but I'm excited; all the critical dimensions seem in-spec.

[cuzinbruce]

I have heard, haven't tried it yet, that a 9mm taper crimp die can be used to crimp the 351WSL. I intend to try it the next time I am working with 351.

[Battis]

I ordered a .352, 175 gr mold (#35-175A plain base) from Accurate Molds (it was here in less than a week). The .357 brass, FL sized with .357 dies, neck sized with .223 dies, crimped with the .357 die, works better than the longer .351 brass. 15 grs IMR 4227 doesn't kick much and still works the action. Very accurate shooter.
That Accurate mold is a work of art, almost too pretty to use. Very well made. I plan on getting one for my Krag 30-40.

[C. Latch]

So you're using .357 brass? I figured the short length or large rims would be an issue at some point.

I annealed and tumbled all of the brass and used the paper-patch trick to resize another half-dozen bulets, but haven't loaded any more live ammo.

[Battis]

I trim the rims down to approx. .407 in the drill press with a file so they fit into the magazine. Otherwise I have to single-shoot them. They eject perfectly, even without the ejector groove, and drop basically at my feet, while the .351 brass goes halfway down range in all directions. With 15 grs of 4227, the bullets sit on the powder. There's more neck tension with the cast bullets than the smaller copper coated bullets. The case mouths of the .351s were getting dented when ejected, but that doesn't happen with the shorter .357 brass. The .357 dies do it all, except tighten the neck, and that's where the .223 dies come in.
Great shooting rifle.

Stay away from these dies - they're basically .38 dies. He gave me a refund, pulled them for awhile, now he's selling them again.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Lee-3-Die-Steel-Reloading-Set-351-WSL-Self-Loader-90040-/301278371330?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4625971e02

[C. Latch]

That's good to know about the dies and case mouth dents. I'll try to load up some lighter loads now that I've heard that light loads will function.

[C. Latch]

I finally got to shoot the .351 today, with the ammo I assembled as outlined above, plus some more with (up to a) maximum charge (old Lyman data for a heavier bullet than mine) of older IMR4227.

Feeding and ejection were perfect. This thing slings brass all over the place, though.

If I could find a peep sight for it, I could take it deer hunting now.