Rifle seating/debelling workflow

[claudesapp]

Evening all, been casting and loading handgun for a few years with pretty good success, but recently decided to try my hand at rifle, 30-06 at first, and I feel like I'm starting all over again. Spent time tonight reading stickies in the forums here, that was time really well spent, but I am wondering about being more efficient in the process.

I do all my handgun cast reloading on Dillon or Lee progressives, but for rifle I am back on my single stage. My first time bottleneck boolit work flow so far was:

full length resize, tumble to remove lube, trim to length & deburr, hand prime cases
open case mouths with Lyman M die
seat boolits

Then this is where I had to rethink my process, I realized I needed to remove the case "flare". I backed out the seating stem, and reset the seating die up to crimp the necks a tad just to remove what the M die had done. This parallels my workflow for handgun in separating the seating from crimping, but that is much more easily done on the progressives. All my past rifle loading has been for jacketed, I've never crimped so I always just have the seating die backed out so it does not crimp.

So my question is how do you all remove the bell/flare (or just the expansion from an M die) or do you just seat & crimp in one step with cast boolits? Tried google, and the stickies here, and found a few references to LEE FCD use, but what's the wise consensus?

Thanks!

[dromia]

I can adjust the "M" die so that the "flare" doesn't need removing but the boolit seats in the first step fine.

Have a look at your die adjustment.

[Yodogsandman]

I put an empty, trimmed case in the shellholder, run the press ram all the way up into an unscrewed seating die, then screw the die in until the mouth of the case contacts the crimping portion. Then lock it down. If I want to add a crimp later, it's just a quarter turn in of the seating die.

I also set my "M" die so, when putting a boolit in the case, the gas check just enters the mouth to the top of the gas check. Some like it tighter, I don't like my boolits falling over and spilling stuff. The less you open up the case mouth, the less you have to de-bell or reduce the flare, preventing the overworking of your brass.

Be careful of the Lee FCD, although some love to use it, it can resize too hard, reducing your boolit diameter. I've never used one. I have one but, haven't found a need for it, yet. Some also like to seat and crimp in separate operations. I see no need for the extra step.

[Jupiter7]

Be careful of the Lee FCD, although some love to use it, it can resize too hard, reducing your boolit diameter. I've never used one. I have one but, haven't found a need for it, yet. Some also like to seat and crimp in separate operations. I see no need for the extra step.

As you've never used the Lee Rifle FCD, probably best you not advise against it's use. The Lee rifle FCD and pistol FCD are completely different. The rifle FCD is a collet style crimp die and works quite well, it does NOT have a post sizing feature like the pistol FCD. I've never liked the pistol FCD.

To the OP, adjust the M die as above so the flare doesn't interfere with bullet seating. Crimp is more art than science in my experience. I always crimp in auto loaders and only sometimes in bolt guns for the sake of comparison. I always crimp as a separate procedure.

[olafhardt]

I like all my cartridges crimped, can't tell you why I just do.

[Mk42gunner]

I put an empty, trimmed case in the shellholder, run the press ram all the way up into an unscrewed seating die, then screw the die in until the mouth of the case contacts the crimping portion. Then lock it down. If I want to add a crimp later, it's just a quarter turn in of the seating die.

I also set my "M" die so, when putting a boolit in the case, the gas check just enters the mouth to the top of the gas check. Some like it tighter, I don't like my boolits falling over and spilling stuff. The less you open up the case mouth, the less you have to de-bell or reduce the flare, preventing the overworking of your brass.

Be careful of the Lee FCD, although some love to use it, it can resize too hard, reducing your boolit diameter. I've never used one. I have one but, haven't found a need for it, yet. Some also like to seat and crimp in separate operations. I see no need for the extra step.

This is pretty much how I do it, too. Most of my rifle dies are RCBS and I just remove the bell, unless I am loading for a tube magazine, then I do crimp.

Unless your .30-06 is a semi-auto you probably won't have to crimp.

Robert

[MGnoob]

IMO, the M die biggest feature can also be it's biggest flaw. While keeping the inside burr free it push material to the outside creating a lip, almost thickening the edge of the case
i just started seating mine deeper and crimping in the crimp groove they come out perfect. At first i didn't understand why you would want to remove the flare after flaring it..but now i see what you are saying. your not really crimping it as much as you are just cleaning up that burr. mine can come out more aggressive of a burr than a bell but i get what you guys are sating.
"Then this is where I had to rethink my process, I realized I needed to remove the case "flare". I backed out the seating stem, and reset the seating die up to crimp the necks a tad just to remove what the M die had done"

i've ordered some collet neck-sizing dies that never showed up.... i felt they would be more adjustable and consistant but since i use all random mixed brass i don't think it would be as consistant as the M die or as easy to use.

So why don't you do rifle progressive? i hate having to run it through the press twice on my progressive set-up (size/load)
but whether single stage or progressive rifle is always going to be more labor-intensive/difficult than pistol.

*note with my hornady seating/crimp die if the bell/flair/burr is too large is will cut/crimp it clean off into a little brass ring*
although if it is doing this the case-mouth is being opened way to much and should be avoided.

[Wayne Smith]

If you are truly getting a 'burr' - a partially rolled edge, you need a chamfer tool. This trims off that burr before you seat your boolit. You need a clean case mouth to load lead. Or perhaps you need to use a different terminology to explain what you are seeing.

[Yodogsandman]

Jupitor7, Your right, I have no experience with the Lee FCD, I wanted to address the OP's question with my opinion of it. I disqualified myself by stating that I had no experience with it. Thank you for pointing out the differences between the rifle and pistol FCD's. I'll leave the "unnecessary steps" expertise to you to answer in the future.

[runfiverun]

try and put just the amount of flair you need to seat the boolit and still allow the round to chamber.
the extra 'width' of the case mouth will help hold things in alignment with the barrel.
yeah you'll lose that little bit of grip to the boolit but gain much more in the process.

if I need the case mouth to help hold the boolit in place. [like when seating out pretty far]
i'll only neck size down the case as far as necessary to hold the boolit in place, anything below that I leave full diameter of the chamber.

[claudesapp]

Thanks for al the replies, good feedback. I have been loading rifle for years, and 30-06 longer than any other cartridge, just never with cast projectiles until this past weekend.

To reply to a few of the suggestions, I do tumble before sizing, either SS pins or usually just corncob. I don't trim after every firing, these particular cases were older 30-06 brass that I wanted to use for my first cast boolit rifle loads, my 30-06 Mo gauge said they were a bit long, plus I wanted to start with 20 as identical as I could get cases, so full length sized and trimmed.

I'm not betting burrs, nor is there really even a bell since I am using an M die. I was just wondering if I should worry about removing the expansion the M die leaves without actually "crimping" the case. What I think I am hearing is use the expansion step on the M die as little as possible, maybe just the depth of a gas check, then leave it alone after seating, right?

[runfiverun]

that's all you need.
the M- die should just open the case a little further so you have the correct tension there.
it's slightly larger than the expander ball in the die set which is made for about .002 with a jaxketed bullet.
you want about the same .002 but on your .310 boolit.

[claudesapp]

runfiverun, that explanation clicked with me, perfect, thanks! Took a mic to my setup and like you said, the expander in the sizing die was .306 giving .002 grip on the jacketed bullet, then mic on the M die the mandrel is .308 with the expanding step at .310. The mandrel gives the same .002 grip on the .310 boolit and (this next part answers my question) the M die expands the case mouth to exactly the size of the boolit, .310 so it fits perfectly, no need to "crimp" it back down at all.

Saves me a loading step, I like that.

[ohland]

The second step of the M die just kisses the case mouth. My belled case mouths show a ring inside about 1/32d of an inch inside. Properly adjusted, the bell is straightened out by the seater. From first hand experience - do NOT try to apply much of a crimp where there is no groove, the case WILL buckle. This is concerning rifle boolits, handguns may need a taper crimp and I'm not an expert there....

[3006mv]

So with regular lee rifle seating die how do yip remove the flare/bell? The bottom touches the top of my shellholder already. No more adjustment?

[bedbugbilly]

claudesapp . . . I can relate to what you are talking about. My first bottleneck has been the 8mm Mauser (others to follow such as the 30/30, etc). I use an M die just as you do . . my boolit is out of a NOE mold that is .325 and it drops at about .326. I'm shooting a 1905 Danzig GEW98.

I have to flair the mouth a bit and consider the M die a "shoe horn". My slug goes in and I'm not getting any swaging . . . but I sometimes have a little "bell" that needs to be ironed out.

I'm also loading on a single stage . . . and using an older set of Lyman dies . . and like you , with pistol I seat and crimp in two steps. I solved my problem by getting a used Lyman seating/crimp die, removing the seating stem and adjusting it so that it just "irons out" what flair there is. Seems to work pretty well for what I'm doing. I de-prime all my brass with a universal de-priming die. I remove the de-capping/expander pin from the FL sizing die and adjust that out a tad to only "neck size" the casing. I expand with the M die, then use the seating die and then the extra seating die without the seating stem to roll out any bell. Yes . . . it's a couple of extra steps but all of my dies are adjusted with the lock ring set in place so it's a quick change in the single stage for changing dies.

I have a couple of the Lee FC (collet) dies but have never used them. I'm only shooting cat sneeze out of my 8mm so the neck tension is really all that's needed for my purposes but I suppose the Lyman crimp die may put a tad of "tightness" to the mouth of the casing as it "irons out" the M die flair?

I'm sure everyone has their own method and there are a lot here who have way more experience than I when it comes to rifle cartridges. My re-loads chamber and shoot very well though for the short distance (50 - 100 yard) plinking that I do. I know what I have described is with the 8mm but the same should work with 30-06 as well?

[gloob]

I have never needed to remove the flare. Unless I'm crimping, I leave the M die step-flare on my ammo. Are you sure your rifle needs this tiny bit of flare removed? The way I see it, the M die flare normalizes the neck tension, somewhat, on untrimmed brass. Trying to remove that flare with a regular roll/taper crimp die is just going to introduce more variability, unless my brass is all the exact same thickness and length. If it loads, as is, I'm not going to mess with it.

Crimping just enough to remove this flare won't increase your neck tension one bit. And if you're roll crimping or FCD'ing, then this is a moot point to begin with.

Also, for bolt action rifles, even if the flare causes a little resistance when chambering, it doesn't matter. (Of course, you have to be sure it's due to just the flare and not to overly thick brass and/or bullets.)