Leading In Barrel, What Am I Missing?

[jonp]

I am trying out some 452-230 TC that I cast the other day from 50/50. They dropped big so I sized them to .454 and used 45/45/10. These are for use in my 45ACP. I am using 4.5gr Promo which I guesstimate comes in near 750fps. After figuring out OAL and crimp to feed I am getting leading in the barrel. The barrel slugs at .452 so I think sizing to .454 should be fine.

I am keeping the speed down on purpose for target loads but should I try straight COWW?

What am I missing here?

[Bohica793]

How are you crimping? Using a Lee FCD? If so, you may be swaging the bullet down to .452 with the crimp die.

[500MAG]

What kind of lube? Is the leading throughout the barrel?

[Larry Gibson]

1st I suggest you try adding 2% tin to your COWWs before mixing with the lead. You may have antimonal wash instead of leading.

If that didn't work size the bullets to .452 after lubing and then lube again after sizing.

If the above didn't work continue doing those and use the LLA straight as per the instructions.

Larry Gibson

[GoodOlBoy]

I would size to .452 myself. But what do I know.

GoodOlBoy

[Harter66]

Breach end leading is sizing and muzzle end is lube generally. I can't vouch for Promo in ACP nor from a closed chamber to closed chamber , but I had a Sec6 and Marlin 1895CB . The 1895 picked up 400 fps w/pretty much every load over the Sec6. I would venture that you are overruning your lube w/given info.

I have had 2 rifles and a pistol that leaded horrably until I had virtually every trace of copper gone. Once that happened all was good. So if this 45ACP rifle is pre-owned I would presume it to be a copper plated bore.

[jonp]

1st I suggest you try adding 2% tin to your COWWs before mixing with the lead. You may have antimonal wash instead of leading.

If that didn't work size the bullets to .452 after lubing and then lube again after sizing.

If the above didn't work continue doing those and use the LLA straight as per the instructions.

Larry Gibson

After a conversation we had some time ago I have been adding tin solder to the mix. I lubed before sizing and after sizing. I am slightly confused on the sizing, however. Most of what I read says to size .001-.002 over barrel. I will get a smaller sizer and give it another try.

This is for a pistol not a rifle and the leading is front to back. I checked the crimp after crimping and it is .470 which is pretty much what this pistol wants with an OAL of 1.185

BTW: I thought a Lee TL was designed to use without sizing. The boolits feed and shoot/eject just fine.

Dusty: I have been using 4.6gr Promo with the 230gr lead boolits for awhile. This mid-loading came from a manual I had which showed a top of 5.0gr. I just checked several other sources which suggest 4.0gr so I might be high. It may be top-end now for some reason. The recoil was snappy but nothing special and there were no signs of over pressure on the case or the primer

[Larry Gibson]

jonp

After a conversation we had some time ago I have been adding tin solder to the mix.

That is good and eliminates one of the potential problems.

I lubed before sizing and after sizing. I am slightly confused on the sizing, however. Most of what I read says to size .001-.002 over barrel. I will get a smaller sizer and give it another try.

Most of what we read isn't the correct thing to do all of the time. What you really want to do is size to fit the throat. The throat, including the taper from the case mouth to any free bore or leade, in your chamber may be less than the .454 you are sizing the bullet at. Thus the smaller drive bands my be scraping back from the square chamber case mouth instead of swaging down to fit the .452 barrel.

BTW: I thought a Lee TL was designed to use without sizing. The boolits feed and shoot/eject just fine.

It works that way in some instances but not all as you found out. It's one of the reasons Lee sells the sizer with the lube.

Larry Gibson

[JohnH]

I've run several thousands swaged lead 230 grain ball with nothing but the wax lube with the very load you describe (or the same charge of Green Dot) and never had a problem. I've also never had a problem using uncut LLA (as opposed to 45-45-10) using an unknown alloy that ran about 8bhn with the same loads. I've run them in Springfields, Thompsons, Kimbers, Norinco and a Rock Island Armory. I'd be surprised to hear the alloy is your problem.

Let me add that I find those two powders peaky. The Rock Island has a firing pin hole that is slightly oversize and the primers on those loads will show a crater that shears off. Unique and Blue Dot do not leave the shear mark even when run to higher velocities. The RIA is the only 1911 I've had this problem with, solution was to simply change the powder to something with a slower pressure curve.

[DeanWinchester]

What's the bases look like?
If they ain't sharp and square you can get gas cutting.

[jonp]

451 or 452 sizer? Suggestions? I use an 18 BHN .452 in my 45Colt with no problems so I'm leaning towards .452

I did have 2 ftf's where the slide refused to close. I shortened the oal slightly and no problems after that.

[rsrocket1]

You should try seating a few bullets some resized and deprimed cases to where the edge of the cone meets the case rim. Then try the plunk test to see if the uncrimped cartridges will feed fully into the barrel. After that, pull the bullets and measure the diameters to see if they are now bigger, equal or smaller than the diameter of the barrel.

If you can load an unzised bullet that will pass the plunk test and the bullet is > 0.452" you should use that method and you shouldn't get leading.

If you have to size the bullet, it passes the plunk test and the pulled bullet is = 0.452", you are marginal. If the pulled bullet is < 0.452", that may be the cause of the leading.

You said the barrel slugs at 0.452". I wouldn't size the bullets any smaller than 0.453"

[prs]

Clean the barrel and use an awl to trace the end of the chamber to remove any ring of lead that may be there. Then with bright light at muzzle end look through barrel from chamber end. How sharp and abrupt is the transition from chamber ledge to rifling? It seems as if the current tendency for production from some makers is to have this VERY abrupt. May be this has no ill consequence with copper clads, I would not know; but it tends to make lead boolits shave and lead the barrel no matter how correct your loading technique is. There needs to be some reasonable leade into the rifling to prevent shaving. My two Ruger SR1911 pistols both had to be reamed slightly to become free of leading.

prs

[jonp]

Scraped it, no lead. Its sharp but i run lrnfp through it with no problem. Maybe this boolit design is just going to be a no go. Its for plinking anyways so ill use them in my bh worse comes to worse and stick to lrn/lrnfp. Not a big deal to me

[jonp]

Alright. I have spent some time now scrubbing the leading from the barrel and it is giving me fits. I read the leading sticky but still have lead in it.
I have tried: Copper ChoreBoy, Soaking in Kroil, Steel Wool, Hoppes 9, JB Borepaste, even Hydrogen Peroxide and Vinegar but still have leading left.

I read that using a filler of Cream of Wheat will help to get it out. I also read on a different board the same thing and several variations of this including using fine walnut media as a filler. I was thinking of using some Bullseye, cover with a piece of tissue paper and fill with walnut then seal the same as fireforming brass without a bullet. Anyone tried this?

I am also starting from square one. I am removing all melt from my pot and starting with pure COWW with some tin and making new boolits.

[Harter66]

I had a 9mm that gave me the very fits you describe and I did all the ''normal'' cleaning that you have done . I had an ultrasonic cleaner at work after 3 45min runs I was able to feel like it was pretty clean. What happened in the 1st 2 runs was that there was visable flakes,sluffing,sheets even of fouling that lifted of the bbl .
I still get some hard to get out lead fouling on the push side of the rifling but it gets better and even when I do get some groove leading most of it will brush out.
As a guide after 250 rnds I pushed 2 runs of the wool wrapped brush through 2 Hoppes patches and only minor streaks on the 4th dry patch. I still get copper sometimes when I do the deep cleanings. It fouled horribly at 1st like 2 mags and it needed to be scraped out.

[MBTcustom]

There are a couple things that I see as potential problems.
1. Just how much tin did you add to the pot?
2. Pull a boolit from your loaded ammo and verify that it is still .452+

The leading has me suspicious. The shear volume you describe is screaming "undersized boolit" to me, and the trouble you are having getting it out is screaming "too much stinkin tin!"

I know they were the right size before you stuffed them in the case. What you have to realize is that many of the die manufacturers make their seating dies so that they insure SAMMI maximum case size, which will swage your boolits undersized inside the case mouth if your brass is too thick.

When adding tin, it's best to download the calculator that Bumpo posted and carefully weigh the amount you are adding, because if you go too far, you are shooting solder, not lead, and it's a turd to get it out (ask me how I know. 30% tin is definitely too much FYI. LOL!)
What you want is about 2% and no more.

[jonp]

Lol pretty sure its not 30%. I figured it at 2% but now im not sure which is why im starting over. As for undersized i dont think they are and i think i shot the ones i liaded up. I could load another just like i had then pull it and see. Ill do that tomarrow. I used all speer nickle brass. I will switch

[RobS]

2. Pull a boolit from your loaded ammo and verify that it is still .452+
.
+++ on the statement above and

There was someone else who also mentioned the LEE FCD as well. Are you using this die?

[jonp]

I did. On second thought i am not going to use coww. I have some pure lead. I mite start with that so i know exactly what i have

[44man]

My .44 has over size throats, .4324" and about every boolit I shoot is groove size,.430" with no leading.
I water drop WW boolits with nothing added.
I have the RD 265 and cut groups in half with Felix lube. I size them .432", TL boolits work great with a good lube, one of my most accurate boolits.
Over groove by a few thou doesn't seem to hurt if the boolit is tough enough. Yet I have zero problems at groove size.
All my friends shoot straight WW, WD, in their ACP's with no problems.
When you smelt, remove all the SO weights.

[jonp]

Well, after reading all of the great responses here and a few PM's members were kind enough to send me I started from scratch. I emptied my pot and used COWW + 2% Tin checking my weights carefully. In my first go around on this I skimmed off the dross when melting down the ww's. I remelted the dross and got almost 8lbs of nice, shiny ingots that go PING which indicates to me I was melting at too hot a temp and not fluxing with sawdust enough and pulled out all of the tin. My subsequent calculations on the amount of tin to add were most likely wrong as I allowed for some tin to remain in the COWW after making the ingots.

I poured the boolits, let air dry and lubed with straight Alox. Sized them to .454 then re-lubed with more Alox. I adjusted the Promo charge from 4.5gr down to 4.2gr and used a Lymans TC Die in a separate step leaving the Lee FCD on the shelf. I also adjusted the crimp upwards to .472 and changed the OAL to 1.85 using a plunk test.
I had 100% reliability with this load and minimal leading over 20 rounds. Nothing like what happened before.

[RobS]

Finally got rid of that damn Lee FCD which I've not see to be any good in the 45 ACP for cast boolits. I have one myself and I use it for one purpose and that is to "de-glock" any range brass I happen to pick up. Glad to see you having success. I suspect that you are running much faster than you think with your load. I remember with that particular Lee TC and seated at 1.19, 4.5 grains of Promo was giving me around 830fps and not 750fps. Your 4.2 load is probably hovering right in there at 800 fps with the short COAL and being .002 over groove diameter.

[RobS]

Another thing that may not have been brought up is "Aging of your Boolits". Many will allow their antimony alloyed boolits a week or better two before loading to make sure they are at their intended hardness. How long after casting did you load your boolits?

[jonp]

Finally got rid of that damn Lee FCD which I've not see to be any good in the 45 ACP for cast boolits. I have one myself and I use it for one purpose and that is to "de-glock" any range brass I happen to pick up. Glad to see you having success. I suspect that you are running much faster than you think with your load. I remember with that particular Lee TC and seated at 1.19, 4.5 grains of Promo was giving me around 830fps and not 750fps. Your 4.2 load is probably hovering right in there at 800 fps with the short COAL and being .002 over groove diameter.

I suspect you are correct on the speed. After a comment from someone else I dropped the load down. The comment suggested that I might be very hot but it is a load I'd used before with no problem and one I got from a book. I looked at several other sources and they varied so I dropped it. I might try going to 4.0gr Promo with this boolit.

I let the boolits sit for a couple of days as I don't shoot them right off. My next step is to try re-sizing some of the original "trouble" boolits, use the new loading info and see what happens. These are few weeks old.

I bought the Lee FCD to give a try. I'm not going to trash it based on this one experiment but I am a little suspect of it now.