Using grooves in Jacketed bullets for lube

[AlaskaMike]

Have any of you guys tried running through your lube-sizer any of the newer style jacketed rifle bullets that have grooves, like the Barnes TSX? I'm just curious if it might reduce copper fouling or increase velocities any.

I have no particular need to do something like this, I'm only curious.

MIke

[AlaskaMike]

Wow--I can't believe that I'm the only one who's thought about this. I was hoping someone else had tried it and could relate what they found.

Mike

[VTDW]

I don't shoot any style of bullet that shows grooves but if I did I would certainly give it a try. It sure can't hurt anything and just might be something to consider.

Dave

[axman]

I can't remember where I read or who told me but it might not be a good idea to fill up the grooves in these type of bullets for fear of pressure increases.

The grooves are to cut down on bearing surface on these tough alloys and to let the metal displace into the cuts. I'll try to find out where I found or who told me as soon as I can.

[Ricochet]

That's what I was thinking, too. Only one way to find out if it works in practice, though... Start low and work up.

[longbow]

I made a grooving tool for another purpose - sort of annular knurling for smooth sided boolits.

One of the fellows here was wondering about modifying "J" bullets to make them larger so I gave it a try with some 0.308" "J" bullets and some 0.303" "J" bullets pulled from Federal factory rounds that didn't shoot well at all from my 0.303. By grooving them I bumped diameter up by 0.003". After grooving I dip lubed and reloaded the Federal rounds. Groups shrunk from about 4"+ at 50 yards to about 1 1/2".

Didn't shoot enough to determine if it had any effect on copper fouling but suspect lubricant would help reduce it. Didn't chronograph them either - duh! No pressure signs though with the factory powder charge and larger lubed bullet.

Shooting the same load lubed and unlubed over a chrony might show differences in velocity which would be an indication of lube effectiveness. I guess not finding copper in the bore would be a better indication.

Ricochet is right on though if you try it - start low and work up.

Longbow

[waksupi]

Mike, I brought that up on chat a few nights ago. Seems as it may be a way to eliminate copper fouling in the bore. Dang, another million dollar idea stolen!

;o)

[rockrat]

I have coated some in LLA, but it is so stinkin cold out, its going to be April until I get to the range!!

[montana_charlie]

I have coated some in LLA
Don't even think of shooting those. Pull 'em apart immediately.

Lubing jacketed bullets requires a special mixture of earwax and toejam.
But, I can't remember the proportions...or where to find useful quantities.
CM

[Ricochet]

Checked in your ears and between your toes lately?

Ear and nose hair might make good filler, too.

[bearcove]

Barnes started grooving The solid copper "X" bullets to reduce the surface area. The X bullets are long due to the lower density of a solid copper bullet compared to a lead cored bullet. This gives the bullet more surface area. The pressures were higher for a given velocity. Pressure is a function of friction. We see that with a lubed lead bullet, low friction higher velocity with same powder charges compared to jacketed bullets.

Barnes realized the load data for the X bullets had lower velocities. How do you make them faster, reduce the surface area to reduce friction.

I don't see lube hurting.

[danski26]

I remember reading an article about shooters of years ago "dipping" the tips of there bullets in lube. It has been done before is all I know about it. Although what hasn't? Could be an interesting experiment though. Keep us informed please.

[lovedogs]

Have you ever heard of Moly? Seems to me it would stand up better than any normal bullet lube. I think you're looking for a cure for a problem that doesn't exist or has already been addressed.

[AlaskaMike]

Have you ever heard of Moly? Seems to me it would stand up better than any normal bullet lube. I think you're looking for a cure for a problem that doesn't exist or has already been addressed.

Moly might be something to try. I fully agree with you that there's no problem here. I just see those grooves and have an irresistible urge to run them through my lube-sizer. :-D

My understanding of the reason for the grooves is that, more important than addressing the increased surface area is that they also accommodate the copper displacement by the lands--they give it somewhere to go. It may be that because of the increased surface area of the all copper TSX, there's more copper displaced, and the need to deal with it is greater than a typical lead-core bullet, I dunno.

My guess is that having lube present in the grooves will not increase pressures at all, and may lower them a bit, but I guess the only way to find out is to test. :-D I doubt I'll find out anytime soon though, given the cost of the TSX bullets.

Thanks for all the replies--this was something I've always been curious about ever since I saw my first jacketed bullet with multiple grooves.

Mike

[Lloyd Smale]

we tried lube the knurled portion of kelly Shleps punch bullets but it didnt seem to help or hurt the way they shot.

[AlaskaMike]

Did you notice whether it had any effect on copper fouling?

Mike

[Bent Ramrod]

Some of the National Match shooters in the Twenties used to dip their .30-06 bullets in Lubriplate grease before firing them. This was supposed to cut down the cupronickel fouling the bullets would leave in the bore.

The problem was that the Lubriplate, if applied too heavily, would exude back into the chamber under the pressure of firing, lubricating the case and increasing the back thrust. Aggravating this was the fact that the "boys" used to swap bolts between guns to get the slickest setup for the Rapid-Fire stage of the event. Oh yeah, and many of the rifles were Low Numbered Springfields as well.

The upshot of all this was that the use of Lubriplate was discouraged, the practice of bolt-swapping was banned, and the Low Numbered receivers began to get increasing scrutiny and eventually began to be scrapped out in the arsenal rebuild programs.

I wouldn't imagine that just enough lube to fill the grooves of the jacketed bullets would do any harm in a modern alloy rifle with good headspace. Just something to think about.

[Lloyd Smale]

they didnt seem to foul much either way. Keep in mind this wasnt to sceintific because the day we were shooting we were comparing penetration to cast bullets too so there was some lead in the barrel that may have been lubricating too.
Did you notice whether it had any effect on copper fouling?

Mike

[Bret4207]

Checked in your ears and between your toes lately?

Ear and nose hair might make good filler, too.


At last! A raw material I have an abundance of! I'll be rolling in money in no time!!!:mrgreen:

[Ricochet]

:mrgreen:

As for dipping bullet noses in grease, look in Hatcher's Notebook. In addition to the above mentioned problems with it, what finally stopped that practice (for the most part) were several rifle blowups at Camp Perry. Hatcher figured it out. To reduce copper-nickel fouling, the arsenal started tin plating the bullet jackets. The grease would fill the space between the case necks and chamber walls, preventing expansion of the case necks. When fired right away after loading, that didn't increase pressure too drastically, as the bullets could slide out of the case necks even while in firm contact with them. But after the bullets had been loaded in the cartridges for weeks or months, the tin diffused into the clean brass in contact with it, effectively soldering the bullet jackets to the cases. On firing, that caused no problem if the case necks were free to expand a bit and break the bond of the jacket to case. But if the grease prevented expansion, the bond produced a tremendous shear force resisting the bullet's movement. Hatcher picked up a bullet downrange at Camp Perry after a rifle "backfired" that had the whole case neck still attached to it, pulled off and forced through the rifling. So they banned the use of greased bullets and also quit tin plating bullets.

DuPont for a while loaded powders with finely divided tin mixed into the powder to keep down copper and copper-nickel fouling. They were designated with numbers ending in "1/2," e.g. #17 1/2. Artillery loads have used tin foil in the powder charge for the same effect.

[nicholst55]

The Army puts (or used to) lead foil into artillery powder charges to reduce bore coppering. One reason you never saw any old retired cannon-cockers, I guess - too much exposure to heavy metals and concussion.

Larger artillery rounds have copper rotating bands on them that engage the rifling in the bore. One way to reduce pressures, I guess.