.351 & .357 case capacity

[Battis]

I FL sized a .351 fired case with a Lyman .357 die, then measured the powder capacity of the .351 and a .357 case (two different cases, side by side). Exactly the same - 22.5 grs (IMR 4227).
I pulled a copper coated 180 gr bullet from a loaded .351 round and put it in the sized .357. Of course it slid right in. But, using 17 grs of 4227 (the same load used in the .351 rounds), the bullet stopped exactly where it should stop if using a crimp, without powder compression.
I use the same technique when loading my Vetterli .41 with black powder. The bullet rests on the powder (with a slight compression).
I know, I know...BP and smokeless are different. That's why I'm asking - can smokeless powder be used to hold the bullet in place in a crimped case?
I've read where shooters use .357 dies to load .351 rounds. Is there another way to reduce neck tension down to .351?
I'll buy the Redding .351 dies if that's the only way to load safely.

[Tatume]

That's why I'm asking - can smokeless powder be used to hold the bullet in place in a crimped case?


Yes. In fact it is often recommended to ensure that gas checks don't fall off when cast bullets must be seated deeply in cases. It is also recommended in tubular magazine guns to prevent bullets being pushed into the cases. There are lots of good reasons for 100% loading density.

What you are asking is more than this though. You have a case that does not put tension on the bullet. I'm not certain that the solution you're attempting is a good one, although I don't think it is dangerous. My suggestion is to go ahead and invest in the correct dies. If the gun and cartridge mean anything to you, the correct dies will provide a more satisfactory outcome.

Take care, Tom

[Battis]

No tension on the bullet concerns me. Maybe with a .352 cast bullet, there'll be neck tension.
I'm curious as to how loading is done with the .357 dies.
Thanks.

[runfiverun]

of course you have the same case capacity.
you just changed the diameter and length of your cylinder, not it's actual internal volume.

[Battis]

I wasn't clear in my wording (I just modified it). I measured the capacity of two different cases - a .351 (from Buffalo Arms) and a .357. The .351 is longer but the two have the same capacity.

[JohnH]

My Lyman 357 sizer die leaves the inside of the case(357 cases) .355 diameter on Remington and S&B cases, outside diameter is .373. My question becomes will the case chamber and most important, will the area the die never touches, that which is in and just above the shell holder allow the case to chamber? A simple test, size a few cases and chamber them see if they chamber. I think, and this is my opinion only, that ignition will depend on the bullet being in full contact with the lands and I can see where the state of ignition would be erratic. Is it enough to cause undesired problems? Likely only one way to find out... I don't think you will burst you gun with your approach, just don't think it will give entirely satisfactory results. I do think the best method is to get the dies... Could it be that those you've read of using 357 dies were simply seating bullets using the seater die and not resizing at all?

[Battis]

An empty .357 or .38 case chambers and ejects, though both are shorter than the .351 case. The rims would have to be turned down to use the magazine. Redding dies aren't that expensive and look like the way to do it correctly.
I'll look through this old (but interesting and informative) thread again to see if anyone actually tells how to use the .357 dies.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?58067-351-Winchester-S-L-Model-1907

[JohnH]

this may be the case you really want https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/360-DW-Brass/

[C. Latch]

Just thinking out loud here.......any way you could get a .38 Special seater and ream it out so that the crimp was partially removed, and would neck the cases down to hold a .351 bullet? If that would work, you might could then seat and crimp with a .357 die.

[JohnH]

An empty .357 or .38 case chambers and ejects, though both are shorter than the .351 case. The rims would have to be turned down to use the magazine. Redding dies aren't that expensive and look like the way to do it correctly.
I'll look through this old (but interesting and informative) thread again to see if anyone actually tells how to use the .357 dies.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?58067-351-Winchester-S-L-Model-1907 I also found the reference to using 223 brass interesting indeed. Since the original cartridge likely headspaced on the rim, you'd have to set up your cases so they'd headspace on the case mouth, otherwise the extractor takes all the energy of the firing pin on each shot and would likely break over time.

[Battis]

I set up a dummy round using a .357 case filled with grits to the level where 17 grs of 4227 would be, set the bullet in, and crimped it with the .357 die (the .351 uses the same shell holder as the .357). The crimp took all movement from the bullet - not the same as neck tension, but it held it in place. It chambered and ejected perfectly.
Doesn't the .357 case headspace on the rim also?

[jrmartin1964]

the .351 uses the same shell holder as the .357

Don't know what shell holder you're using, but the .351 W.S.L. and the .357 Magnum DON'T use the same one, at least not according to the manufacturers.
.351 W.S.L.:
Redding - #5
Hornady - #12
RCBS - #19
Lee - #19
Lyman - #15

.357 Magnum:
Redding - #12
Hornady - #6
RCBS - #6
Lee - #1
Lyman - #1

While it is possible to use a shell holder for the .357 to size and load the .351, at some point the .351's smaller rim is going to slip the shell holder (damaging the rim) and the case will stick in the FL sizing die. A stuck case is, at best, only a temporary interruption to the loading process, but the damage to the case rim is pretty much permanent. Best to get the correct-fitting shell holder.

[Battis]

The shell holder is a Lyman X1. It works, but like you suggested, I'll get the proper one.

[runfiverun]

graph and sons gets 351 brass in pretty regularly.
I just picked up 100 cases and the rcbs die.

I have no problem mix-matching die sets to get a few rounds loaded or make do with but you need neck tension to hold that boolit in place from the magazine to the chamber.
without measuring I'd think the 357 die is a couple thou too big to get the job done here.

[Battis]

Yeah, I'm coming around to reality. Graf and Sons won't ship any components to me in MA, but Buffalo Arms has changed their policy and will ship to me, even loaded ammo - I had to set up an account and send them a copy of my LTC. Redding dies are about $82, .351 brass is about $.58 each - not too bad.
I'll probably load up a few rounds using .357 cases and see how they work.
Some of the Buffalo Arms case mouths got dented when ejected, the same that happens to the case mouths when I work the bolt too hard on my Schmidt Rubin 96/11. I was wondering if a shorter .357 case might escape that pounding, or maybe I should try a lighter 4227 load.

[runfiverun]

ejector spring.
I got a model 92 that just about flattens my 44-40 brasses case mouth.
I know the cure but hate to mess with it because it puts all the brass in a neat little pile.
I just use a pair of needle nose pliars and a quick twist of the wrist to round them out before running through the sizer.
I know you can make correct 351 brass from 357 max brass but you need a lathe to do it properly.

[JohnH]

Doesn't the .357 case headspace on the rim also?

Yes. And I need to add an apology for a piece of misinformation. I had at one point been of the impression that the Win. SL was a short recoil design, but it is a simple blow back action. My apologies.

[Battis]

No problem. I'm still wrapping my brain around the noun/verb concept of "headspace."
I'm ordering a copy of the book "Winchester Model 07 Self Loading .351 Caliber, Its Past & Its Future with Modern Brass Bullets & Powders" by Leonard Speckin. I've read good things about it.

[JohnH]

Headspace is simple, it is the allowable free movement of the case in the chamber with the breech (bolt) closed. For practical purposes it should be in the neighborhood of .007, some would consider that a maximum dimension, depends on what you are doing... How it is controlled is another matter. The three methods are rim, shoulder, case mouth. One never uses any two together, creates chambering problems. With rim, obviously the rim catches on the chamber mouth. With the breech closed there would be some .007-.010 free play. Set up is controlled by the cutting depth of the rim step. On shoulder controlled headspace, a datum line (generally the mid point of the shoulder) is used as the controlling point, and is why there is such concern amoung handloaders about not pushing the shoulder of the case back on resizing as this increases the headspace and on firing the case stretches excessively to fill the chamber, at minimum shortening case life, at worst causing split cases. On case mouth the headspace is controlled by the case stopping on step at the front of the chamber. Cases like 45 ACP and 9mm Parabellum use this and is taper crimps are used rather than roll crimps as roll crimps can have the effect of shortening the case, thereby forcing the extractor to hold the case against the force of the firing pin.

On setting up a barrel, gages called "Go/No Go" are used to determine proper chamber depth with the breech closed. These are specially ground to highly exacting tolerances. The breech should close on the "GO" but not on the "NO GO". If it doesn't close on the GO, the chamber requires more depth. If it closes on the NO GO the chamber is too deep. As a point of minutia, military armorers in war time will use what is called a field gage. It is allows a slightly longer chamber than a NO GO will, this is to expedite return of weapons to the front. They are able to do this because mil-spec brass generally has heavier case walls and a thicker head than does civilian brass. As well, they are not reloading the brass. It was common on weapons made during the first and second war to allow somewhat larger chambers (we are talking .010-.020) to facilitate loading under extreme field conditions, muddy dirty ammo, rifles, etc. Hope that helps.

Edit: Magnum cases derived from the 375 H&H use the rim formed by the belt for headspace. The designers did this to circumvent problems they were having with the shallow shoulder angle of the case. Offspring of the case (300 Win Mag and similar) actually don't need the belt, the shoulder is sharp enough to facilitate headspace control. Some reloaders have had trouble trying to set up their reloads to headspace on the shoulder only to find the case is too long and the bolt won't close. Rare, but it happened often enough that folks complained. The WSM magnums and similar offerings from Remington did away with the rim and headspace on the shoulder, but that is another discussion.

[dtknowles]

I don't know if you have a .380 ACP sizer but that might fix or improve the neck tension. I did not see if you ordered the .351 dies. I guess I could look up the rim dimensions in some books I have but not sure you don't have the info. I wonder about rim thickness and profile to fit the extractor but you said the .357 extracted fine, just does not fit the magazine? Maybe you just need to reduce the rim diameter.

I saw two of these rifles at a gun show yesterday. I did not need a new project or I would have gotten one or a Martini Cadet I saw. The .351's were a little cheaper than the Martini.

I might be helpful to have a chamber cast. With that you could consider if it is sensible to use .223 brass with headspace on the case mouth or the bullet. Now that I said that, maybe you could use a .223 die to size your .357 brass to get the neck tension right.

Tim

[Battis]

I don't mind buying the Redding dies but one post I read said that he (the poster) bought the dies and they ruined his brass, so he just started using the .357 dies and they're much better. I might buy a Lee custom .351 neck sizing die and FL size the brass with my .357 dies when needed. I have the proper shell holder on the way.
The .357 cases eject perfectly but I'll have to see how they eject when I take down the rim to use the mag.
I'll check out my LGS this week and see if they have any used .223 dies.

[Battis]

I bought a bag of fired, unsized, not de-primed, .223 cases, cut one to length and made a dummy round. Plenty of neck tension, the bullet fit and stayed put, it fit into the mag fine, it chambered fine, but it would not eject - the rim is too small.
Anyone need .223 brass (98 pieces)?

[runfiverun]

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/25487
coulda saved your money...

[Battis]

I didn't pay much at all for the .223 brass. Graf (and Cabelas, Midway) won't ship to me in MA, not even brass, even though it's perfectly legal.

For the heck of it, I just ordered brass and bullets. After I put my address in, this came up:

"You Cannot Purchase Ammo or Reloading Components in Massachusetts

Please remove these items from your cart. Sorry for the inconvenience."

Screw 'em. It's a bunch of ****. I contacted the State Police awhile back and they told me to find another company.

[runfiverun]

what the heck..
I thought Mass was in the USA.

[Battis]

It's not that it's illegal to ship to MA. The Attorney General of MA, a woman, put the word out to the larger companies (Cabelas, Graf, Midway) that if they do business with MA residents (ammo, components, etc) she'll come after them. Well, they lifted their skirts and ran and hid, even though it's perfectly legal to ship to MA. Other companies will ship to MA.
Coming to a state near you...

[JohnH]

Come after them for what, running a legal business?

[Battis]

Good question. But they're running scared or it's just not worth their bother.
Anyways, there's still places that will ship here (I just removed their names from my posts). It's just annoying.

[JohnH]

I feel for you guys in unfriendly territory

[Battis]

Interesting development...
Lee does not make a .351 die but I found these on ebay. Lee said they may have been a special order. I contacted the seller and he said they were a special order. I have a set on the way.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Lee-3-Die-Steel-Reloading-Set-351-WSL-Self-Loader-90040-/251589693845?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a93ea1195

[Battis]

In fairness to Graf, this was their response when I asked why I couldn't buy brass on their site:

"Since the website has be redone, this is a glitch in the system. Please give us a call so that we may help you complete your order.

Thanks and have a great day!~
Melissa B"

[JohnH]

Sounds like you hit two good deals:bigsmyl2: