Bear Defense 45ACP

[Master_Mechanic]

Not sure if i should be posting this here or in the hunting section. A friend of mine is planing to move to western canada, in bear country. He has been reading up and talking to people about a bear defense load, now personally i dont think he is going to have many issues with bear, but i said i would look into helping him out. I only have a mold for the lymann 225gr round nose, does anyone have any tips on hotter loads for bear defense. I want to load up some for my friend to try before he moves, he isnt getting any younger and i doubt he can handle the recoil of the 45 loaded up enough to stop a bear properly. Thanks

[Bonz]

I could be wrong but I thought that the recommendation was for a 44 magnum at minimum for protection against bears

[Master_Mechanic]

My thoughts exactly, I want to take the time to change his mind before he gets himself in trouble. He can't take the recoil of a moderate load in a 44 mag let alone a full bear load.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Has he cleared owning a HANDGUN in Canada? Alaska - no problem, Canada is not Alaska. Maybe a big knife and a rifle?

[Master_Mechanic]

Has he cleared owning a HANDGUN in Canada? Alaska - no problem, Canada is not Alaska. Maybe a big knife and a rifle?
That I'm not sure of, my only task was load development

[tomme boy]

255gr RNFP would be my choice.

[Master_Mechanic]

I would be down for trying that but I only have a 225gr rn. Looking for data ideas for that boolit

[Jupiter7]

Last resort but better than nothing. Bullets should be of proper alloy and treatment to prevent disruption upon impact. 1911 should be upgraded with a new heavier recoil spring (18lbs at least, 20lbs maybe) and flat bottom firing pin stop if many of these to be fired, seriously do not shoot these unless gun is set up for +p loadings. Powder choice is paramount for increased velocity in the 45auto. If a stranger to this, google is your/his friend.

45auto +p
http://blog.westernpowders.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/LoadGuide-45AutoACP+P-update1-28-14.pdf

[wbrco]

Why not one of the small .44 mag lever action rifles instead of a 45 auto. One of the Rossi that are chopped way down?

[Master_Mechanic]

Why not one of the small .44 mag lever action rifles instead of a 45 auto. One of the Rossi that are chopped way down?
Again that would be my idea, my freind is going to be taking a 45-70 marlin but wants a sidearm aswell and 45 acp was his choice

[DougGuy]

Unfortunately, his choice is NOT a sound choice at all for a sidearm against bears. the .45 ACP was meant to be and designed by J. M. Browning to be a manstopper and was never intended to be used against bears. Maybe here in NC you can get away with using one against a 150-200lb black bear but where he is going? It is one of the WIMPIEST choices he could make, even loaded to +P velocity. If he cannot withstand enough recoil to kill a bear with a .44 Magnum, he really should be watching them on tv and not getting himself where he would need the defense of a handgun, because a .45 ACP simply is NOT enough gun for the job.

[Master_Mechanic]

I agree totally, I'm thinking of loading up some +p loads as well as some full 44mag loads to prove the recoil to him and maybe sway his decisions

[HarryT]

And now a word about the Darwin Awards....

[jonk]

While I'd take a .45 over a lot of handgun calibers, I'd really second what the others have said- a bigger caliber in a wheelgun would be my choice. .44 mag, .50 S&W, etc. I'd not have confidence that a .45 ACP would penetrate to the vitals or crack a big brown bear's skull.

Honestly if I were in that situation, I might go full on and get a 45/70 BFR revolver and a side holster to go with it. Because one thing I DO know: a 45/70 WILL drop anything on this continent or any other at close range, like a runaway freight train. Shot placement still being important, of course.

[Master_Mechanic]

The bfr would make a great sidearm when your allready carrying a 45-70 lever gun, friend won't hear of it.

[gray wolf]

Could a 45 ACP kill a Bear ? sure, ( eventually )
Would it stop a Bear that is bent on eating you, ( as in right now ) doubtful.
It's the wrong tool for the job

Threats to life and limb need to be stopped NOW If you can't gun up for the task, don't undertake the task.
Go to a Zoo and stay out of the woods.

Don't mean to sound harsh and I know all the post that will follow about what 45 ACP can do.
I live in Black Bear country, when Julie goes in the thick stuff to pick berries I don't give a handgun a thought.
It's a 12 gauge with 3" slugs, NO nonsense about staggering different rounds, slugs get my vote.

I don't think many people know what a Bear looks like in a full charge with one thing on his/Her mind.
It's not fun, it's quick, many times it's deadly, and takes nerves of steel to deploy what you have as a defense.

My recommendation, if you can't gun up and be proficient, Get Bear spray, carry a rifle and hope you go home with a full can of spay and all the shells you left with.


Again that would be my idea, my freind is going to be taking a 45-70 marlin but wants a sidearm aswell and 45 acp was his choice

This is a little confusing to me, he can handle a 45/70 but can't handle a 44 Mag. ?
Every time these threads come up I am amazed at what some, not all, people think some pistols can do, and how much they will go through to prove they are wrong.

[Finster101]

I understand your concern for your friend but I would not contribute to his foolishness. If he is too hard headed to realize that he doesn't have enough gun I think he may be hard headed enough to make some other poor choices in his new surroundings that may get him in trouble. Don't take me wrong, I am not trying to bad mouth him, just showing a little concern.

[Master_Mechanic]

I'm in total agreement with all these posts, I just hope I can knock some sense into this guy before he ends up wounding an animal and still being eaten.

[turmech]

I know very little to nothing about bears. I probably should not post anything based on that statement, but the 45 acp would beat a sharp stick or pocket knife. I know that is not an original statement either.


Assuming its the 45 acp or nothing I would go for accuracy and reliability. I would want to hit what I aimed for and empty the mag if the bear let me. I would see if he would at least spend the $20 on the lee 452230TC as it has a flat point and feeds well in my guns (from what I read others as well). I would cast it out of WW and water drop them. Load them of the maximum safe charge that is accurate and reliable.

[RobS]

I agree that a 45 auto isn't a best choice for this situation however if if your friend is dead set against anything but a 45 auto for a sidearm then load up some +p 225 grain RNs since that's all you have and make sure you cast them as hard cast. I would use an alloy of wheel weight or similar that is water quenched. You want a hard but ductile alloyed boolit, you don't want an alloy that is hard and brittle such as linotype and will shatter.

[TES]

well.....bear spray has no recoil and totally debilitates a bears senses. It can't see, smell or feel anything but pain. It also has a better chance of hitting it's target. One bear had 4 or 5 .38's and 12 7mm bullets in it before it died. Granted it was the largest bear ever shot and killed but it did also kill two hikers before death.

Just my 2 cents.

[bersa380]

A 45 would be better than a stick. But if I had a choice it wouldn't be my first.

[waksupi]

Poor choice to start with. If you are going to use it, find a flat point boolit. I do carry a .45acp here quite a bit. I know that if I have a problem with a bad bear, to stick my left hand in his mouth, and put a shot between eye and ear. Otherwise, he will most likely kill you, or at least give you a hell of a mauling. .45 acp is not bear medicine.

[jmort]

I would rather have bear spray as opposed to .45 ACP. Convert it to .460 Rowland and then I would consider it.

[blackthorn]

Tell your friend he had better research the stupid gun laws we have here in Canada! Even if he is immigrating here and he is going to OWN a huge tract of land, the only place he will be able to shoot anything with a handgun is within the confines of whatever property he OWNS! There are NO handguns allowed for hunting (or to be carried "just in case")! Gray Wolf has given some good advise on the use of a 12 gauge. I have hunted northern BC since 1956 and I have never come into close contact with a Griz (thank God). Personally, If I were choosing a defence "Bear gun" I would likely opt for a 4570 "Guide gun", and I would practice with it! A LOT!!!

[jonp]

I know this will generate a lot of comments as some will swear by a 45ACP in stopping a bear but I don't consider it adequate. It may be a last resort if that is all you have to carry as any gun is better than none but I would also carry Bear Spray if I was relaying on a 45ACP. For me the smallest I would go would be a 41 Mag.

How about a 45Colt revolver with a 300gr boolit loaded up to where he can stand the recoil? I'd be much more confidant with that and besides, if he is being charged by a bear the least of his worries will be recoil. I don't think he would even notice it and if he hurt his wrist saving himself from a bear attack I would consider that a better than even trade

You don't say what type of bears. Western Canada I'm assuming you mean Black?

[jonp]

well.....bear spray has no recoil and totally debilitates a bears senses. It can't see, smell or feel anything but pain. It also has a better chance of hitting it's target. One bear had 4 or 5 .38's and 12 7mm bullets in it before it died. Granted it was the largest bear ever shot and killed but it did also kill two hikers before death.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree. I remember running through a "gas house" in the military to show us what tear gas would do and it is totally involuntary. You have no control over what it does to your mucous glands. I got a good reminder years later when I worked nights as a greenskeeper at a resort. I carried pepper spray with me for dogs and one night the canister leaked in my pocket without me knowing. My eyes itched for some reason and without thinking I rubbed them. Yeah, that was stupid and a good lesson.

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

The bfr would make a great sidearm when your allready carrying a 45-70 lever gun, friend won't hear of it.
"Great" if you like carrying a lot of weight. I guess I don't see the BFR as a practical woods gun. Probably just me.

[mpmarty]

Lube his boolits with bacon fat. That way when he drops the empty pistol and runs the bear may stop to sniff the gun letting him climb a tree.

[gray wolf]

I know very little to nothing about bears. I probably should not post anything based on that statement, but the 45 acp would beat a sharp stick or pocket knife. I know that is not an original statement either.
I hear this argument a lot, it seems to just roll out of peoples mouths. The old sharp stick thing.
Let me say it once more for the folks in the back row, When your life is being threatened, and the danger imminent, The threat needs to be stopped as in right now, as in put down and off it's feet without the ability to do harm, be it a Bear or otherwise.

Would you shoot to just wound a charging Bear because your just a nice person ? ( insert fool )
Of course not, You need to badly break a shoulder or both or severely damage a hip,
first choice being the CNS. A Bear is not going to start a charge from 100 yards away, pick a distance, lets say it's 25/30 yards away. You first need to to Bear savvy enough to know if the Bear is legit on his charge or just bluffing. You can't just shoot every bear that stand on it's hind feet and looks at you, or paws at the ground with it's head down.

So if Mr. Bear starts coming from 30 yards away he will be on you in a few seconds, So you have to draw, aim and shoot at a moving, bobbing and weaving target in that amount of time.

Needless to say you have to hit what your shooting at while under a great amount of stress.
The arm chair comandoes can say what they want, doing it is another pile of Beans.
Have someone tie a rope onto a cardboard box about 18 inches square, put the box about 20 yards away,
Make sure your friend is behind you.
stand at the ready with pistol holstered and have the friend start pulling the box in your direction as fast as he can. You draw when the box starts to move. Count the hits you get before the box is to close to shoot at.

Then try it with the pistol at the ready and see what hits you get.

I love the folks that think cause they have a gun, they are ready,-- ready and prepared for what ?
Confrontations no matter what they may be are rarely stacked in your favor.

[AKbushman49]

Master Mechanic- Is he moving to BC? If that's the case, get him a copy of "Alaska Bear Tales" and make him read it! Most probably be encountering Blacks and Browns. The Coastal bears are larger in body than their Interior counterparts. I live in bear country. Every year we read or know of a bear encounter locally. Even the venerable 44 Mag is marginal if trying to stop a charging grizzly! In such cases you need a whole lot of STOPPING POWER! Enough to knock the animal back a pace or two, so you can reload and put another into it. IMHO The 45 ACP IS NOT ADEQUATE!!!!! A large/powerful caliber rifle would be better.
bushman
On this subject just saw a video clip of a sow with two cubs that charged a couple of workers who filmed it. The sow charged @ ~15 yds, covered the ground in less than 4 seconds. Result one fatality, the other in critical. The fatality was consumed by the bear. I believe the video was taken in Russia. Never the less they can move a lot quicker than one thinks. And these folks were ill advised to let their dog antagonize the sow to begin with. Very chilling indeed!

[Master_Mechanic]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. On the note of the rifle, would you carry loads using jacketed soft point expanding bullets or would you carry a harder cast lead boolit?

[oger]

Agree, on the 460 Roland conversion that was what it was designed for.

[garym1a2]

A good autoloader 12awg with slugs would be my first choice. A good 45-70 leval gun another choice. In the US I would say a short barrel M1A with a 20 round mag.

How about a glock 20?

[Hickory]

If you like excitement use the 45 acp,
the sad part is, the excitement will most likely be at the end part of your stay here on earth.

[DougGuy]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. On the note of the rifle, would you carry loads using jacketed soft point expanding bullets or would you carry a harder cast lead boolit?

Harder wide flat nose. Don't have to be BHN22 but 12-14 makes a tough boolit and being solid it will penetrate in feet which is what you need for any large animal, bear or otherwise.

Two on the left came through 32+ inches of seasoned oak, from a short barreled Vaquero, over 22.5gr W296, recoil is severe but look how much hardwood the boolit was driven through. THIS is what you would hope you are armed with in case you have to stop a bear with a pistol.

On the right is 320gr Lee C452-300-RF which would hands down be my #1 choice in straight walled pistol cartridges for bear or dangerous animals:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/DSC01713_zpseefbffc2.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/DSC01713_zpseefbffc2.jpg.html)

[Beerd]

Lube his boolits with bacon fat. That way when he drops the empty pistol and runs the bear may stop to sniff the gun letting him climb a tree.

Best idea yet :bigsmyl2:
..

[jonp]

Better yet have your buddy carry the backpack with the fatback in it

[Beerd]

can't depend on having an available buddy, but I'm always there when I need me.
..

[mtnman31]

If he can't handle the recoil of a more potent pistol, he should really keep his rifle handy. Is it really that much slower to unsling a rifle than draw a pistol? If he wants a back up to the rifle, get some bear spray - it is effective and works. A pistol is probably a little more comforting but if all the pistol is going to do is anger the bear and cause it a slow, painful death as he digests you, why not use the spray?

Reality is, if he is alert and observant while he is out and about, he will prevent 99% of the up-close bear encounters. I grew up in grizzly country (Montana), staying alert and leaving when I encountered bears has kept me from ever having anything remotely scary happen.

[longbow]

I just went through this with a friend of mine who wants to pack a 1911 for bear protection.

His goal was to convert to .45-08 which requires a heavier than stock recoil spring, fully supported brass and semi custom brass ~ shortened and reamed .308 brass. The result is pretty similar to .45 Super. The guy that came up with the .45-08 lives in Prince George BC and apparently there were a number of guides and others that prefer the slim and quick handling aspects of the 1911 over a revolver or rifle.

I did a lot of research on it for him and have collected quite a bit of load data but he wanted to use heavy boolits and ran into feeding issues so was going to have a gunsmith fix it up for him. No final word yet.

The original cartridge design was for a 200 gr. boolit at 1500 FPS. Not sure why so light but that is what Gunnar worked up and apparently it is indeed effective.

From the 1911 forum:

"11/02/02. More news on the .45 ACP "bear Gun" aka the .45-08 Armco. Have been popping out 200 grain hard-cast semiwadcutters at 1450 from a 5" barrelled Para Ordnance. The trick was to use Hodgdon Long Shot powder. I'll tone it down to about 1350 which is lots, but the hot ones were no problem to shoot, even with a stock 18# recoil spring. You NEED a shock buff in the gun! More testing this winter. Too bad the bears are hibernating... I've been reading a bit of Elmer Keith stuff, and have concluded that a good hardcast lead bullet with a flat nose and sharp shoulders is probably the best to use. Gee, that's the one we use for IPSC.

02/05/02. How about the new .45/08 ARMCO pistol wildcat cartridge! This is essentially a .308 case cut down to .45 ACP length and neck reamed to make room for a Nosler 230 grain FMJ flat point bullet (and as much powder as we can cram in behind it. Alternately a 200 grain hard cast SWC bullet beautifully cast and sized by Smart Bullets is used, at higher speeds, of course. Results? So far, almost 1200 FPS from the 230 grain bullet with a 4 1/4" barreled Springfield Armory Defender with a 2 port compensator and a 22 pound recoil spring. That will translate into well over 1200 with a 5" barrel (testing soon) and starts to get REAL close to what you get from a 4" Model 29 in .44 Magnum. 50% (at least) more rounds and twice the controllability. Recoil is absolutely nothing compared to the big magnums, although it IS noticeable! Testing is ongoing and will include a .40Super barrel with 200 grainers at around 1300 FPS. Should be fun. I still like the .45/08 version, and even at the speeds we've achieved, see no excessive pressure signs with Federal 150 (large pistol) primers, which are notoriously soft. The cases, of course, are made to withstand pressures we'll never encounter without actually blowing these pistol primers to smithereens! I really think that a standard 5" 1911 or Para Ordnance, set up with the heaviest recoil springs that Wolff makes, will push 230 grain bullets past 1250, without being anywhere near as punishing to shoot as a hot heavy bullet .44 Magnum load in a Redhawk, a much bigger and heavier gun.

The idea came from the need for a "Bear Gun" for the north where a lot of people who move about in the woods for a living are now getting licenses to carry a handgun. Traditionally it's been a .44 Magnum or bigger, but some of these are a pain to carry comfortably all day, along with a lot of other necessary gear.

I ran into a prospector who insisted on carrying a Colt Officer's Model loaded with 230 grain hardball! Another carries a Ruger Super Redhawk in .454 Casull and has a permanently disabled shooting hand and the biggest flinch you ever saw. Somewhere in between there has to be a gun that has the penetration and sheer bullet weight to take down a bear, even a grizzly, and still be shootable by the average person.

There are, of course, others like this, such as the .45 Super, touted by Ace Custom .45's out of Texas, the .451 Detonics Magnum of some years ago, and the new Triton .450SMC, as well as the .460 Rowland pushed by Clark, and sold only as a compensated gun. It gets to 1300 FPS, but probably needs the comp! All these, by the way, are the same overall length, although case lengths differ. The problem, as we've discovered, is to find a powder that will give us the velocity we want without compressing enough to start pushing the bullet back out. That lets out the old magnum standby, Hodgdon H110, and actually all its contemporaries, such as N110 Vihtavuori, 296, 2400, 4227 IMR, etc. N105 seems to compress at about 1200, so may be OK - and as is usual with this excellent powder, shows no more pressure than an ordinary IPSC load. Others hit the "wall" at 1050 and 1150, and we're currently playing with Tite Group, which is compact enough, and has shown nice results in some reasonable .44 magnum loads.



The plan is to have loads available to test guns built specifically for Bear Defense - hey, let's call them the Armco "BD" models - built around stainless steel .45 Para Ordnance P14-45 "Limited" guns modified with heavy recoil and firing pin springs and the THICK shock buffs made by Red Buff. The customers would be able to purchase ammo such as the .450SMC from Triton, or .45Super, as well as practice with regular .45 ammo by just swapping recoil springs. The guns could, of course, be modified to the customers' specs, with fiber optic sights, checkering, tungsten guide rods, but would basically be stock Paras, able to withstand being carried in all sorts of weather, and available instantly. The repeat shot capability would greatly exceed anything else available, even the trusty 12 gauge shotgun, and if 11 shots aren't enough, fire 10 and save one!"

http://www.armco-guns.com/
http://bcm-guns.ca/

Longbow

[runfiverun]

for the 45/70 a 405 gr rnfp moving along at a sedate 14-1500 fps is more than a 454 casull poking a 300 along at full go.
if I had to carry a 1911 in the woods, and it was strictly for bear [jeez], I would have to go with a 250 rnfp.
sadly that's exactly my short range [30-40 yd] 45 acp deer load, and several others use the same load for bowling pins at 7 yards.

[waksupi]

I hear this argument a lot, it seems to just roll out of peoples mouths. The old sharp stick thing.
Let me say it once more for the folks in the back row, When your life is being threatened, and the danger imminent, The threat needs to be stopped as in right now, as in put down and off it's feet without the ability to do harm, be it a Bear or otherwise.

Would you shoot to just wound a charging Bear because your just a nice person ? ( insert fool )
Of course not, You need to badly break a shoulder or both or severely damage a hip,
first choice being the CNS. A Bear is not going to start a charge from 100 yards away, pick a distance, lets say it's 25/30 yards away. You first need to to Bear savvy enough to know if the Bear is legit on his charge or just bluffing. You can't just shoot every bear that stand on it's hind feet and looks at you, or paws at the ground with it's head down.

So if Mr. Bear starts coming from 30 yards away he will be on you in a few seconds, So you have to draw, aim and shoot at a moving, bobbing and weaving target in that amount of time.

Needless to say you have to hit what your shooting at while under a great amount of stress.
The arm chair comandoes can say what they want, doing it is another pile of Beans.
Have someone tie a rope onto a cardboard box about 18 inches square, put the box about 20 yards away,
Make sure your friend is behind you.
stand at the ready with pistol holstered and have the friend start pulling the box in your direction as fast as he can. You draw when the box starts to move. Count the hits you get before the box is to close to shoot at.

Then try it with the pistol at the ready and see what hits you get.

I love the folks that think cause they have a gun, they are ready,-- ready and prepared for what ?
Confrontations no matter what they may be are rarely stacked in your favor.


More realistically, shoot at a tennis ball bouncing rapidly towards you. That is about the size of a bear's brain.

[waksupi]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. On the note of the rifle, would you carry loads using jacketed soft point expanding bullets or would you carry a harder cast lead boolit?

Cast lead.

[RobS]

More realistically, shoot at a tennis ball bouncing rapidly towards you. That is about the size of a bear's brain.

Now who is going to throw that bouncing ball toward a person with a firearm??? :shock: :kidding:

[DeputyDog25]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ55uhsdPh_y8uLQQJrWcLI1Cvtm2H7x Azz5ki7otEmwi-VGSCW

The bear is going to laugh at the .45 round on his way to your friend. I am from the Northwest originally and trust me, you don't want to trust a .45 against a grizzly.

[DeanWinchester]

A .45 acp will work against a bear just fine.............from a Thompson with a drum.

[Elkins45]

I'm surprised the 460 Rowland hasn't gotten many advocates. Depending on the gun you can drop in a conversion kit and exceed 44 mag energy levels.

[muskeg13]

Oh my! Doom and gloom and man-eating bears behind every bush. What a hoot it is to read all of the sage advice posted by the Lower 48, east of the Mississippi, hairy chested bear experts. I know more than a few Alaskans (myself included) who regularly pack a "wimpy" .45 acp., when needed. A 1911 you're familiar with and can employ quickly beats a flinch inducing hand cannon that takes two hands to get out of the holster or a long gun left standing against a tree because it wasn't handy.

...but as stated before...a handgun in Canada?

[jmort]

"I'm surprised the 460 Rowland hasn't gotten many advocates. Depending on the gun you can drop in a conversion kit and exceed 44 mag energy levels"

I suggested it, post 24, but the .44 mag can do 1500 fp lbs with heavy Boolits and the Rowland is close to 1000 ft lbs with lighter bullets. .44 mag way more gun.

[longbow]

My friend's sentiments exactly muskeg13!

He is proficient with his 1911 but not with a revolver, and exactly as you state, a "long gun left standing against a tree because it wasn't handy" is not near as useful as the handgun you have with you.

As for the "handgun in Canada", yes we can have handguns but normally they cannot be packed around in the bush. My friend has a free miner's license which gives him the right to carry a handgun in the bush.

While .45 ACP would not be my first choice, I have to say that while researching loads for .45-08, .45 Super, .460 Rowland, and several other "hot" .45's on 1911 platform along with heavier than normal bullet loads for standard .45 ACP (+P and +P+ especially) I learned a lot and don't think I would feel too undergunned at all if that was what I had at hand.

I was looking forward to load development for his .45-08 but we haven't gotten there yet.

Longbow

[waksupi]

Now who is going to throw that bouncing ball toward a person with a firearm??? :shock: :kidding:

That's what God made steep hillsides for! Try it, lots of fun.

[muskeg13]

I've had good success with the Lyman 452664 250gr RFN, cast of air cooled ww and 2% tin, with moderate charges of Unique, cutting a ragged hole at 15-20 paces. The RCBS Cowboy 45-230-CM is a similar design in 230 gr. These are rounded flat nose designs with very wide metplats,so they hit hard without feeding problems. Although I have a stout Ruger .44 Mag, but I'm much more proficient with my trusty M1911. It's not hard to almost replicate .45 (Long) Colt ballistics, which was considered more than adequate in earlier times when a lot more grizzlies were roaming around. Carried in a good shoulder holster, like a Galco Miami Classic, the M1911 .45 is always instantly available when needed while leaving your hands free to do whatever you came there to do, like fish (or mine). While I've never had to fire, I've had occasion to draw in the close presence of bears several times (<10 paces), and I found it can be done right quick with peace of mind.

[Bigslug]

No need to overthink this problem.

Load him up with factory hardball. It was a descendant of the .45 Colt which was originally conceived with the side benefit of taking HORSES off the battlefield. It's the modern HP rounds that would be the biggest mistake for bears.

If you can find some 230 grain FMJ with a flat nose (TC or RNFP), this would be better at crushing tissue and increasing the internal bleed, but in any event, what you need is penetration to what I call the Tootsie Roll Center of the Toostsie Pop. Nothing's likely to give you that at gun-safe pressures better than a hard solid slug - he's just going to have to keep his head and shoot straight. Get him educated on bear anatomy and how to reach the major cardiovascular players and brain (note - the nasal passages will take you right there without all that pesky skull in the way)

[oger]

longbow, have you tried AA-7? It is the best in the Roland for me.

[Elkins45]

The 45-08 was something I thought about 25 years ago. That was back when I had more time and imagination than money so I never did anything about it. When I bought my Clark 460 Rowland conversion for 1911 a couple of years ago I bought 500 rounds of the Starline Rowland brass and I think the cost was somewhere around $20/hundred. Surplus 308 is pretty expensive these days but I don't know if Starline is even thinking about producing any more exotic stuff like 460 brass until they can catch up with the popular stuff.

It's worth noting that buying the Rowland barrel only gets you two things: the compensator so you don't beat your gun to pieces and the safety margin of using the longer Rowland case for your nuclear loads. This matters because the Rowland loads to the same LOA as 45ACP and I don't want those loads ending up in my lightweight aluminum framed guns.

Experimenters who have sectioned the cases say there's no difference in web thickness between the 460 and 45 Super brass made by Starline. The only difference seems to be the "magnum" treatment of the longer cases.

I think if I were going to develop a 45-08 load I would get my hands on a 45 reamer and do the same treatment to a dedicated barrel. It's a nice safety measure for people who own more than one 45. If it were my only gun then maybe I wouldn't worry about it, but Murphy is never far behind me.

[RobS]

That's what God made steep hillsides for! Try it, lots of fun.


I live in midwest Kansas. :bigsmyl2: I've done that a time or two on a berm at the range when shooting a bottle. Shoot low get it to pop up and then it'll roll down the berm.

[6bg6ga]

Shoot the bear in the jewels and it will go down :kidding:

[NavyVet1959]

Shoot the bear in the jewels and it will go down :kidding:

Well, if you're going to propose that, we might as well consider whether a load of birdshot to the face to blind it would work. Can you run faster than a blinded bear? At my age and thanks to various sports injuries and such over the years, I'm pretty sure that I can outrun a turtle, but that's about it.

[Mk42gunner]

If I had to carry a 1911 for bear defense, I think I would make it a 10mm. More potential penetration than a .45 and top end loads won't beat the gun to death quite as fast.

The only bear I have ever actually seen in the wild was a black bear in Colorado.

Robert

[HarryT]

I wish one of our Alaskan members would shock a grizzly with a Taser to see if it will stop an attack. If so, that would give all the weak wrist-ed hikers a low recoil, non-lethal bear deterrent (if it doesn't stop the bear at least we know not to try it).

[Bullshop]

Your kidding right? This would be the way to make a bad bear a mad bad bear. Ever see a mad bad bear? Sorry! Silly question. If you had you wouldn't have asked.

[MBTcustom]

Unless you were planning on shooting your hunting buddy in the leg with that 45 facilitaing an effective distraction wilst you make your getaway, I doubt a 1911 is going to do anything to stop a bear.
But for that matter, if all you are looking to do is slow down the other guy, a 25 ACP would work almost as well and be easier to carry.
LOL!

[fredj338]

There are no good choices in service pistol calibers for modest size bears & larger io. Not enough vel to push the bullet mass deep enough to reach vitals. Maybe a hot loaded, 200gr 10mm, but a 4" 41mag, 210-220gr bullets would be my min In Bear country. Consider pistol laws in Canada, a 12ga or 45-70 GG a far better tool.

[fredj338]

No need to overthink this problem.

Load him up with factory hardball. It was a descendant of the .45 Colt which was originally conceived with the side benefit of taking HORSES off the battlefield. It's the modern HP rounds that would be the biggest mistake for bears.

way)
This is so out of context. The 230gr fmj works ok for a point blank shot into the brain of a horse. Unless you are willing to let the bear be on top of you, so you can deliver a point blank shot up into its brain bucket, you are just kidding yourself. I am a huge 45acp fan, my preferred ccw, but people are not even small bears. Yes better than fighting with a knife, but there are better tools. Of you spend a lot of time in bear country, learn to effectively shoot a 44mag or hvy 45colt.

[waksupi]

There have been some unsubstantiated reports filtering in that paint ball guns are not effective for bears. These reports are coming in from family members of the Grizzly Bear Paint Ball Teams. They go out, but they never come back.

[Bigslug]

This is so out of context. . .

Not really. The fella's asking for the best .45ACP load for the task because it's about the limit of what the shooter can handle. All of the other things you can do to a 1911 to improve the terminal side of things are going to up the recoil and possibly require stiffer springs which an older gent may not even be able to rack. A 900 fps 230 grain FMJ load will get something like 25-30" in bare Jell-O - probably a little more in relatively open organs like lungs, obviously less if you're trying to get through heavy bone.

Better options in the same recoil spectrum? Sure. Either a 180 grain .357 or heavy weight .44 Special slug will have more sectional density and better penetration. I had a 200 grain RN .38 with a starting speed of less than 600fps penetrate 18" when the gelatin block ended. You don't have to bolt warp engines to your bullets - just make them heavy relative to the frontal area.

Good as a full-tilt .454 with a 300 grain WFN? Of course not, but not all of us can handle those - and it's a far cry from the feather-tickle so many seem to think it is.

[Hang Fire]

Why run the risk, get two row 12 sawed off to 18.5" and triple ought loads.

[sawzall]

Why run the risk, get two row 12 sawed off to 18.5" and triple ought loads.

Or better yet, a 12.5" Remington 870 or clone loaded with alternating 000 and slugs. Next choice would be a Rossi Ranch Hand in 45C loaded hot, Ruger or higher loads. Both non restricted in Canada.

[gunshot98]

From Arkansas here, not many bears to deal with, but with that said would a 12 ga. 3.5 mag 000 buckshot load not stop a bear? Please understand, have never encountered a bear, and hope i never do. Just asking?

[Airman Basic]

Okay, timely posting again:
110519

[gunshot98]

Haha.Airman, you aint right.

[NavyVet1959]

From Arkansas here, not many bears to deal with, but with that said would a 12 ga. 3.5 mag 000 buckshot load not stop a bear? Please understand, have never encountered a bear, and hope i never do. Just asking?

Well, a 000 buckshot pellet is .360" diameter and 70 grains. Each pellet is probably traveling around 1200-1500 fps, depending upon that manufacturer's particular loading. With 000 buck, you're probably going to get around 12 pellets in a 3.5" shell (I couldn't find any 3.5" 000-buck loadings when I did a quick Google search). So, the question is how much penetration are you going to get with a 70 grain round ball at 1200-1500 fps? I'm thinking the sectional density is not that great, so it's not going to be as good as a slug.

[scattershot]

Well, we're drifting again. If he wants a .45ACP lightly loaded, then load them the way he wants, and explain that the loads are not optimal for defense against a bear. What he should have and what he wants are two different things. I personally like a 200 grain SWC with 4.0 Red Dot. About 850 fps, is accurate, and about as soft shooting as you will find in the .45. By no stretch bear medicine, but it's a light .45 ACP load.

[pmer]

Just tell him to get a 44 mag. If a bear gets that close he won't notice the noise or recoil, in a few seconds it will be over anyways. For good or bad.

Start him point shooting with light loads.

[jonp]

I found this interesting reading from a Russian perspective.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2911043/m/6791036291

So , ladies and gentlemen , sorry for the long wait I promised statistics. A lot of work was . I want to first talk about these statistics is that you could understand what it represents. I will allow myself here to copy a piece of text from my other post. In the ballistic laboratory of the Federal Judicial Examination Center of Ministry of Justice of the Russian Federation , where I had the privilege to work , there is a giant , but in my opinion poorly rated , selection of materials on the results of the use of firearms .
Part of their dedicated use of non- hunting weapons for hunting and self-defense , even from animals. It is large enough statistical data to based on it can draw conclusions about the effects of various types of small arms , including rifles and handguns, in virtually all common animal.
These statistics are accumulated in different ways. Largest and most complete part , on the basis of documented cases directly to the scene, and confirmed by numerous proven track record .
The other part is made up of statements and reports of the various parties, but with no physical evidence . Typically, these cases refer to situations where the evidence lost, or when the participants are not able to point ( to find) the scene, or occurring in hard to reach places , or places is not located on the territory of Russia . However, it should be noted that despite the lack of documentary material in these cases, they are usually on the testimony of the participants do not differ from similar, but with a serious documentary base that speaks to their credibility.

So "korotkostvol" . Most of the materials in cases of self-defense pistols and revolvers from bears , not fresh. They basically fixed before the 80s , but there are , of course, and newer . Please tell about the total number of cases of self-defense against bears and weapons used in this case . Actually fixed number of them much more of my said , but otherwise things were so confusing and not clear that working with them is extremely difficult. I used only the most complete and reliable , proven physical evidence , the testimony of witnesses and participants. In some cases , we measured the mass of dead animals. But not mentioned by me in less clear cases , the overall proportion of successful and not successful cases on models of weapons , almost the same , which is important for our generalization. How not to fall under the concept of the effectiveness of the weapons are not cases where a person shot in the air, regardless of the outcome. Just not reported cases where people do not have time to use the weapon , or did not shoot for any other reason .

Weapons chambered 7.62/25 TT and 7.63 Mauser .
It's a TT pistol and revolver model 1896 , various modifications. Since almost the same , and even interchangeable ammunition , their effect is identical . Based on this, I have presented cases with the participation of one united group.
Since the 30s of the 20th century , 30 have carefully documented cases. Of these, 21 cases opened fire from a distance of at least 2 meters. Of the 21 th person 14 people did not receive any public damage , 4 people received injuries of varying severity, 3 died. In these 21 cases, 14 bears were killed and found .
9 people opened fire from a distance of less than 2 meters killed 3 people, 2 more were injured , 4 are not affected . Killed were found five bears. It should be noted that the determination of the distance ' less than 2 meters ' probation and summarized , from 2 meters to direct contact, so as to establish its exact value in this situation is impossible.
The largest bear killed by weapons of this caliber ( TT pistol ) , had a mass of 310 kg . In other cases the weight of animals was very different and ranged from 70 to 280 kg . Unfortunately it stood was not done frequently, and on the basis of available data , to identify a direct relationship between weight and survival of the beast , it's hard . Often simply stated that the beast big, medium or small size . Without specifying the mass, such definitions are somewhat subjective. Cases where the bear was killed , not always coincide with the cases where a person does not get hurt . It should be noted that quite often, even in the event of death of a person , animal , too, died , and he was found nearby. Obviously, the dead animal is not always sought , therefore, similar incidents have occurred more frequently.

Weapons under the 7.62 revolver cartridge ' Nagant ' .
Actually, it is only the revolver ' Nagant ' . Cases of its use the most - 38 , 30 of them from a distance of more than 2 meters. Of the 30 , only 16 people have been injured at all , 8 killed , 6 received various injuries. In these 30 cases, 13 were found dead bears.
Of the 8 opened fire from less than 2 m , 2 people died , 4 received various injuries, 2 is not affected at all. 4 found dead bear.
The largest bear, whose weight was recorded weighed 238 kg . Of the features of the wound ballistics of this caliber revolver pointed out that the bullets ' Nagant ' is not always break through the cranial bones of a large bear. In such cases, a more productive is hit in the chest and neck area . In general, if we compare this with the same caliber of diameter 7.62 \ 25TT , and 7.63 Mauser , it is clear that ' Revolver ' has less killer , stopping and penetrating action

Weapons chambered for 9x18 Mak.
Reliably documented 26 incidents of gun PM, and 2 cases of the use of APS pistol .
Of the 26 cases of PM in 19 cases , shooting start to lead from a distance of more than 2 meters. In these 19 cases, 10 people were injured at all , 4 died and 5 were injured . 10 found dead bears.
Of the 7 opened fire from less than 2 m , 3 is not affected , 2 were injured and two were killed. 3 killed and found the bear.
Documented cases of the use of the pistol APS , for our consideration of little use - only two of them . In one case the bear was killed , and the man was not injured, but the judge noticeable impact on one occasion , I would not. In the second case, the fire was a queue at a distance of about 5 meters and the bear was killed on the spot. But this case is all the more so can not be considered in the context of the effectiveness of pistols, from the fact that the knockdown in the automatic mode is much superior to single shots .
The largest weighted beast of those killed by the caliber of 9 \ 18 has a mass of 247 kg . The bullets of this caliber does not always break through the skull , and clearly inferior to the action of bullets CT / Mauser , but somewhat superior to the action revolver bullets ' Revolver ' .

Weapons chambered for 7.65 \ 17 Browning .
It includes a variety of foreign-made guns that were in vogue in the Soviet Union during the period from the 20s and partly in the post-war period . They provide a diversity of structures and likely different muzzle energy for the same cartridge.
Cases of self-defense from a bear with a weapon caliber 7.65 \ 17 were caused by apparently only a desperate necessity. With the necessary certainty can lead 17 such cases. In 11 cases, the shooting started with more than 2 meters . Not affected at all only 4 people , 3 were injured , 4 were killed. 4 killed and found the bear.
In 6 cases , when fire was opened less than 2 meters were still alive and not injured only 2 people . 2 more people received various injuries and the 2nd died. Were killed and found two bears.
About chucks 7.65 \ 17 that have been made at the time, you will notice that their energy is significantly inferior to modern patrons 7.65 \ 17 , who reached the usual energies , from about 70's 20th century. In addition , these cartridges domestic production, combined with instability characteristics.

Weapons chambered for 9 \ 19 Para.
Weapons under this cartridge , we have been producing not so long ago , and in such cases it has not yet been observed . All uses of handguns 9 \ 19 relate to the use of various foreign-made pistol used in the USSR in the war , and partly the postwar period. They had a different design , but they were mostly Parabellum- 08 and Walther P- 38.
Were 17 cases of use of weapons of caliber 9 \ 19 to bear that meet the criteria of completeness . In 10 cases, the weapon was used from a distance of more than 2 meters. Of these seven cases, people do not receive any injuries , 2nd traumatized and one died . 7 was found dead bears.
Of the seven cases, the use of weapons from a distance of less than 2 meters , 3 people were not injured , 2 injured , 2 killed . 4 killed and found the bear.
The largest of the weighted weighed 280 kg . Weight remaining ranged from 90 to 230 kg . In general it can be noted that the effectiveness of the bullets fired from pistols 9 \ 19 , similar to the effect of bullets efficiency 7.62 \ 25 fired from a pistol TT. It should also be noted that patrons 9 \ 19 , production is now greatly enhanced , compared with the cartridges 9 \ 19 times previously , and used in all these cases.

Weapons chambered for 6.35 ( 25ASR ) .
From domestic pistols to treat them Korovin pistol , but other than it used a lot of foreign guns of this caliber. The gun Korovin produced reinforced cartridge, but it could also be used in other models. Besides its gain with respect to the subject is unimportant.
Been 12 attempts to self-defense from a bear with a caliber of 6.35 ( 25ASR ) . Of these, probably in 8 cases , shot from a distance of more than 2 meters. Not affected 3 people , 1 were injured , 4 were killed.
Of the 4 cases of shooting with less than 2 meters 1 person was damaged , 3 died.
The cartridge of this caliber is extremely weak , and it is not suitable for such situations . Only an extremely desperate situation could lead to their use . In addition , statistical analysis of situations with its use complicated by the fact that the survivors of those who have tried to apply it is much less than in other gauges are applied . Of the 12 cases of its use was murdered and found only one bear .

Weapons chambered 11.43 (.45 ACP)
Actually, it is only pistols Colt M -1911 , have been reported to us during the 2nd World War, the United States. Statistics of their use is very small and does not allow for a complete withdrawal of their effectiveness .
Of the 9 cases , shooting from a distance of more than 2 meters was carried out in 7 cases . One person was injured , the other 6 no damage. It was found killed and seven bears.
Of the two cases when shot from a distance of less than 2 meters , one person is injured , the other was injured. 1 bear was killed , and it is injured man.
Unfortunately , the weight of any of the bears killed by the bullets of this caliber is not marked , and the annotation ' beast had a very large size " is very subjective.
You can certainly argue that the caliber 45ASR most effective and this is confirmed by the fact that out of the 9 people who were defending them , no one was killed . But we must not forget that the statistics on 45ASR the most numerous, and in my opinion , is not beyond chance.

In my view , none of the presented calibration is not necessary for how - ever protection against bears. They may be divided only into 3 groups.
The first I would carry guns ' conditionally acceptable ' for such a defense . They have the caliber 45ASR , 9 \ 19 , and 7.62 \ 25TT . Somewhat surprising effect of the latter caliber. Even humans, it does not always stop a bullet , but it has some efficacy bear. This, in my opinion, due to the greater density of tissues bear and as a result, better energy transfer to them . That is, while the energy for the big bear is not enough , in his body , it consumes more completely and efficiently than in the human body , which almost always is a bullet pierces through, needlessly taking away most of the energy . Of course, as the man he still works much better , as it is usually more than enough , and the energy that has time to give a bullet.
The second group I can carry guns ' leaving hope . " They have the caliber 9 \ 18 7.62 7.65 Nagant and partly \ 17 Browning . These statistics show that they leave a chance to escape , but no more. It should be noted that after the attacker to shoot a bear , it is not always continues the attack . Apparently the pain and fear yet sometimes it stops . If the bear was always going to end, casualties among the defenders would have been as much more , and among the defenders of such caliber , especially.
The third group includes guns ' chance of not leaving . " This weapon caliber 6.35 ( 25ASR ) . Of course , cases of salvation through such weapons are, but in my opinion it is rather a reaction of an animal to pain and fear than the merit of weapons. Proof of this is a small and insignificant one (! ) the number of those bears killed in such a defense. Of course, the use of larger caliber , part animal was not killed , and also retreated under the influence of fear and pain, but as a rule , more than half were found dead .
The generalized use of statistics , it is difficult to conclude that distinguished the situation in which people do not suffer from those which were lost. Basically survive in situations where the bear died , literally riddled with bullets. But often killed a beast, lying next to the dead or crippled man, and sometimes opposite , the man turned out to be unharmed and the bear , stopping the attack tried to escape. So the clear conclusion is still there . One thing is clear - the more likely it was , the more people have time to shoot and hit.
In addition to these gauges , there are also adequately documented cases of the use of pistols and revolvers other, more rare in our caliber . I have not seen fit to give them , because they were isolated, and therefore do not allow their proper evaluation

[Harry Eales]

If you and your buddy are in the Canadian or any other wilderness where you are likely to meet up with a bear there are only two things you need. First a pair of comfortable trainers which you will wear all of the time, second is a .22 semi auto or .22 revolver. If you and your buddy meet up with a bear, draw your pistol, shoot your buddy in the knee, then run like crazy. Your buddy will keep the bear tied up in chewing on him whilst you get away. The simple answers are always the easiest.:shock:

Harry

[milrifle]

I just told my wife about this thread. She said "You're gonna get SO Mauled! You're gonna be bear LUNCH!"

[Freischütz]

I feel the 44 Mag is the smallest handgun for bears. But if you want to use a 45 ACP, I'd use 452423 and the heaviest charge the gun could handle.

Speer #8 shows some very heavy loads. Consider them the absolute maximum, and realize you may not attain them.

[Buck Neck It]

July 15 Anchorage Daily News, man in Sterling kills a 5 year old brown bear with a .45 auto.

[snaketail]

I started to suggest your friend invest in a good pair of running shoes...but bears are pretty fast. I saw a Canadian Black Bear that looked like a truck...a .45ACP would just make it angry. I think your friend would be better off with a good shot of "common sense" rather than a .45 auto.
My brother-in-law went bear hunting in Alaska once - he said, "As the bear stood up the rifle got smaller and smaller in my hands. I decided it wouldn't be a good idea to shoot it with a .30-40 Craig."
M

[muskeg13]

.45 ACP gets it done


July 15 Anchorage Daily News, man in Sterling kills a 5 year old brown bear with a .45 auto.

http://peninsulaclarion.com/news/2014-07-14/brown-bear-killed-at-sterling-residence

[M-Tecs]

Landess grabbed his highpoint .45 pistol stepped out onto his upper deck, took aim and fired seven rounds toward the bear’s vitals. He said the bear “got crazy” and started running about 50 feet before it collapsed and died.

[waksupi]

Landess grabbed his highpoint .45 pistol stepped out onto his upper deck, took aim and fired seven rounds toward the bear’s vitals. He said the bear “got crazy” and started running about 50 feet before it collapsed and died.
Wonder if the bear would have run, had the guy been on his level? I'd hate to bet my life on it.

[gtgeorge]

Good example of a large bear with 7 rounds of 45 acp fired at/and into it and still went 50' I dang sure would not have been happy being in his way during that 50' run. And that wasn't a surprise from a charging bear intent on harming him either.

[M-Tecs]

I have never seen a brown bear in the wild and I have only shot one black bear so very limited knowledge.

I do have a friend that is a noted brown bear guide in Alaska. He used to carry a 338 Win Mag but after a couple of close calls on charging wounded bears he now carries a 375H&H. He says the knock down difference is striking. I have no doubt that the 45acp will kill the bear as noted above but the question is how quickly?

[muskeg13]

Here's another: http://www.newsminer.com/news/alaska_news/hiker-shoots-kills-grizzly-bear-in-denali-national-park/article_e6113066-83ad-5e90-9203-5f98d457d948.html

The Park Service wanted to charge the shooter at first, but later ruled the shooting justified.

[jonp]

Landess grabbed his highpoint .45 pistol stepped out onto his upper deck, took aim and fired seven rounds toward the bear’s vitals. He said the bear “got crazy” and started running about 50 feet before it collapsed and died.
I would hate to have been 40ft from that bear.

[littlejack]

Now, let me get this straight, "It is OK to carry a loaded firearm, but, you can not discharge it". What the H$!!.
Now, does that sound like the folks leading this country or what?
I swear Gus, If brains were gas, those people wouldn't have enough to run a piss ants motorcycle around a Cheerio.
Just venting.
Jack

[hickfu]

7 shots from the 2nd floor is WAY different then 7 shots from right in front of it... he had the time to pick his target and most likely had the broad side shots, where as if he was facing the bear he would only have shoulders and skull to shoot at as it was running right at him...

At least your friend has the 45-70, just tell him to never put it down when in the woods.

Doc

[Gohon]

Amazing how every time someone asks a question like this out come the lecturers on it's not enough, you need this at minimum, you're being foolish and so on. Doesn't matter why the guy wants to or has to carry only a 45 ACP but still out they come. In the first place there is no such thing as a bear stopper sidearm. Even the most powerful one that can be carried is only good it the brain or spine is hit for a instant stop of a already charging bear. If one is lucky they may get one shot off with the so called 44 magnum minimum caliber and if they are still lucky even more it may connect with the brain or spine.

On the other hand it is no great feat to get off 8 rapid shots from a 45 ACP which has a total of over 3000 fpe and any one of the single 400 fpe bullets are capable of penetrating if the right bullets are used. Up that to +P or +P+ and the power is increased. As for the weaving and bobbing head of a bear.....that usually comes from someone that have never seen a charging bear. The body is bouncing all over the place and gives the impression the head is moving but in reality that head itself remains pretty level in a charge. Load up some 230-240 grain SWC casts that will feed properly or even Hornady HP-XTP which is not a true hollow point but designed for deep penetration and you will have a pretty good emergency sidearm in bear country. Emergency is the key word here with any sidearm.

[Larry Gibson]

7-8 well placed shots with a 45 ACP from a handgun that will be carried is a lot better than the 400 gr hard cast super speed wonder designed bullet out of the .50 limburger super drop'em elephant in trax rotator that you left in the boat/PU or back in camp because it was a PITA to carry around..........was too heavy and hurt like h*ll when you shot it........

As mentioned no handgun is a bear stopper. Even a bear that is mortally wounded and still clubs you around for a couple minutes before dying (if he isn't "turned" by the 7 shots or lives that long to really club you around) is a lot better than the bear having all week to chew on you, at his leisure........besides, 7 well placed shots and then put those hitech sport boots into 5th gear overdrive.........You have lots of options and the best one is to have as big a handgun as you can shoot well and one that you will carry and have with you all the time. I've seen too many times the unarmed man who left his handgun at home or in the vehicle because it was to big, to uncomfortable to carry and too hard to shoot. But the gun salesman and internet experts all convinced him it was just what he "needed". Seen that in the hunting fields whether they be downtown, urban, rural or wilderness. Bottom line is carry what you will carry, can use and then.......don't hesitate to use it.

Larry Gibson

[muskeg13]

At least your friend has the 45-70, just tell him to never put it down when in the woods.


That would make it kind of hard to get any mining done.

[Grapeshot]

I lived in Alaska for two and a half years, and the size of the bears up there makes using a .45ACP in any loading a pipe dream if you think it will deter a Grizzly or one of their Brownies. .44 Mag or the .454 Casoul(sp) is the Minimum. Any thought about using a HANDGUN for bear up there is looked upon as folly. A .45/70, .450 Marlin, .458 Winchester or a 12 gauge slug gun are more suited to deterring a bear from using you for lunch.

[square butte]

The above post brings an old story to mind that I used to hear when I lived in MT. I swore I would not post it here but .... Guy moves to Alaska and decides he needs a bear gun to use while out in griz country. Gets his mind set on a .44 mag Ruger and heads off to the gun shop. Salesman in the gun shop says to him - You don't want that .44 mag Ruger - You want this 12 gauge with slugs. After a few rounds of back and forth - the guys refuses to listen to reason and demands the .44 mag Ruger. Salesman gives up and says OK to the Ruger. But tells the guy - Let me send it back to the gunsmith before you take it - to have the front sight filed off. Guy wants to know why anyone would want to do that. Salesman says to the guy - Because after you shoot a grizzly with that, he's gonna be so pissed off that he'll shove that ruger right up you @$$ and the front sight is really gonna hurt going up your rear end... All right - I know I shouldn't have posted it. My apologies to all who did not laugh. My wife says it's time to get ready for church - gotta go now.

[Elkins45]

Nobody disputes that an African safari rifle is a better choice, but the fact remains that any gun is better than no gun. Would you toss your 45 aside during a griz charge if it was all you had?

[Blackwater]

I'd very seriously want to avoid taking on a griz with a .45 auto, but if I just HAD to, and no other option were available, I'd load a 200 gr. SWC cast as hard as I could get it with tin added to help keep it together and not shatter,ot spit or otherwise come apart, and I'd load it as hot as I could make myself feel comfortable with. Haven't tried it yet because I can't find any of this powder for sale, but the Hodgodon's Annual Manual shows some impressive velocity with that bullet and CFE Pistol Powder - 100+ fps. above any other listed powder. That still wouldn't make me feel much better, though. Griz are tough and tenacious critters, not to mention big and pretty darn thick - NOT good criteria for an assaulter, 'cause it makes 'em tough to stop unless hit VERY accurately and up WAY too close!

If I was goin' to griz country, it'd be a NECESSITY to arrange the acquisition of a .44 mag, with some good hard cast bullets that would be able to penetrate reliably without breaking up. There's just not enough "shocking power" available in the bigger calibers like the .454, etc. to be worth the extra recoil and slower follow up shots, if they're needed. That's my take. Never been there and done that, but that's my take on it, based on a lot of field experience, a little of it not too dissimilar from a griz. FWIW.

[TES]

Somebody needs to come up with a full size .50 cal pdw. I wouldn't want to shoot it...but would like to see someone else shoot it. Could you imagine? WOW!

[xtphreak]

Somebody needs to come up with a full size .50 cal pdw. I wouldn't want to shoot it...but would like to see someone else shoot it. Could you imagine? WOW!

Been on the market for a long time
Its called a desert eagle .50 AE
Shot what about 15 years ago
Recoil wasn't as bad as a 44 mag full house
It is a big hunk of handgun
I'm pretty sure I read in the last Lyman, they said it was next to last because there was only one hand gun cartridge more powerful.
That was the 500 S&W

[jonp]

As Larry pointed out any firearm you carry for self defense is a clear winner over the one that you leave on the nightstand. The question on a firearm for bear defense seems to me to boil down to a rifle is always better than a handgun. If you carry a handgun then the largest caliber you can shoot and control but most importantly carry everyday is the best bet.

I, personally, would not feel good if I was relying on a 45ACP as my primary defensive sidearm in bear country but to each his own.

[44man]

Problem with big caliber handguns starting at the .44 is always complaints about recoil. Go through posts and see how many want light loads. learn larger and the .44 is easy. You CAN hit with the one shot needed.
Too many come here with nines and ACP's, many shots that make noise. You might feel good with all those shots but you just lie to yourself.
I still prefer a .475 BFR. Hang it from a sling or shoulder holster. easy to hand, sling best.
Carrie a 12# rifle all day, up and down steep hills. Rifle or shotgun best but it must be in your hands. Gutting and the rifle will be out of reach.
Knowing a big revolver will save your butt. you hunt, not some gay guy that can't carry a few candy bars, too much weight. I feel for those that can't carry a few pounds. Girly men!

[Outpost75]

Tell your friend he had better research the stupid gun laws we have here in Canada! Even if he is immigrating here and he is going to OWN a huge tract of land, the only place he will be able to shoot anything with a handgun is within the confines of whatever property he OWNS! There are NO handguns allowed for hunting (or to be carried "just in case")! Gray Wolf has given some good advise on the use of a 12 gauge. I have hunted northern BC since 1956 and I have never come into close contact with a Griz (thank God). Personally, If I were choosing a defence "Bear gun" I would likely opt for a 4570 "Guide gun", and I would practice with it! A LOT!!!

+1 on what Blackthorn said!

My school classmate is an Alaska native who works with the US Army Corps of Engineers in bear country and has for 25 years.

In all the years they have kept statistics on nuisance bear shootings the most effective weapon has been a 12-ga. shotgun and this is what USACE issues for bear defense on their wilderness work crews. No handgun is as effective. Educate yourself!

http://dnr.alaska.gov/parks/safety/bears.htm

http://www.bearbiology.com/fileadmin/tpl/Downloads/URSUS/Vol_7/Miller_Chihuly_Vol_7.pdf

http://www.bearbiology.com/fileadmin/tpl/Downloads/URSUS/Vol_11/Miller_Tutterrow_Vol_11.pdf

[TES]

I know about the DE...I was thinking a semi auto as in the HK PDW 9mm but it would shoot a full size .50 round as in out of a ma deuce.

[M-Tecs]

No gun defense http://news.msn.com/staging/alaska-army-national-guard-soldier-attacked-by-bear-near-base

[tazman]

About 20 years ago my good friend went bear hunting in one of the western states(I believe Wyoming but I am not certain). He had a tag for a grizzly and used a professional guide. He carried a 375H&H and so did the guide. They spotted a bear below them in a draw about 60 yards away. The guide told my friend to shoot him through the shoulder which is what he did. The bear then turned and charged the pair. Both guide and hunter emptied their rifles into the bear during the charge(8 round combined). Both men reloaded one round from a pocket since they were rapidly running out of time. My friend fired his last shot into the bears skull at about 15 feet dropping him there. He has never been back bear hunting since that I know of.
My point being even the big guns can fail to stop a bear when he is seriously upset. A 45acp at close range is a whole lot better than nothing and a properly placed shot(in the skull) will do the job.

[44man]

Maybe, if it penetrates! I have no bear experience but can tell you a .475 and even my .45 Colt with the right boolit will penetrate a deer end to end. Never a worry about a boolit glancing off a skull.
All I read suggests shooting a bear in the nose and there is a lot between it and the brain to stop a boolit. Penetration of a revolver is amazing with a lot of damage in between.111373 I shot this deer at 76 yards, right below the chin, took out the spine and a whole row of short ribs yet still exited here. 420 gr from my .475. Near a hole in one guys!
My 330 gr .44 boolit will not stop either.

[M-Tecs]

Two different guns and two different outcomes.

“Grizzly Guns” by H. V. Stent
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2846837/posts (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2846837/posts)
“Grizzly Guns” by H. V. Stent
If you are planning a grizzly hunt or only dreaming of one, a big question is which rifle to use.
On that fascinating subject, I’ve been amassing information for some 40 years of living as a teacher, fruit grower and hunter in that bear paradise, British Columbia, where stories of encounters with grizzlies and brown bears are enjoyed where ever sportsmen gather and are often headlined in newspapers and television newscasts.
Such meetings sometimes result in a mauled man or shot bear, or both. A recent one ended with both man and bear dead.


Rolf Voss of Surrey, British Columbia, had shot a caribou near Fort Nelson, in the north-central part of the province, and was carrying parts of the carcass back to his camp in wooded mountain country when a grizzly, perhaps smelling the meat, attacked him. Voss got off two shots with his .270 that proved fatal to the bear, but the grizzly bit Voss about the head – they usually go for the head – and killed him. The two bodies were found side by side.
This is no reflection on the .270. That cartridge has killed many grizzlies and browns. In 1985, a fine 27-incher (total skull measurement) fell to a .270 in the hands of Roger Pentecost of Peachland, BC. In 1986, another record-class grizzly was killed by Alvars Barkis of Sinking Spring, Pennsylvania, with a .300 Magnum; and a medium-size one, about 500 pounds, was killed by 12-year-old Gary H. Holmes of Kimberly, BC, with a .25/06. Back in 1965, the world-record grizzly fell to one .30/30 bullet fired by Jack Turner. And before that, the world-record grizzly succumbed to a .22 Rimfire!


Bella Twin, an Indian girl, and her friend Dave Auger were hunting grouse near Lesser Slave Lake in northern Alberta. The only gun they had was Bella’s single-shot bolt-action .22 Rimfire rifle. They were walking a cutline that had been made for oil exploration when they saw a large grizzly following the same survey line toward them. If they ran, the bear would probably notice them and might chase, so they quietly sat down on a brush pile and hoped that the bear would pass by without trouble. But the bear came much too close, and when the big boar was only a few yards away, Bella Twin shot him in the side of the head with a .22 Long cartridge. The bear dropped, kicked and then lay still. Taking no chances, Bella went up close and fired all of the cartridges she had, seven or eight .22 Longs, into the bear’s head. That bear, killed in 1953, was the world-record grizzly for several years and is still high in the records today. Which only goes to show that in an emergency, strange things are possible, but who wants that kind of emergency?

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Based on the recent performance of a light 44 mag load that came pretty close to a 45 ACP load(200 grains @900 fps or so) on a farm hog, it would certainly not be my first choice for bear protection. But something is better than nothing and a 45 certainly better than many others.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?248265-Recovered-Boolit

[cwheel]

I've carried a 1911 for a backup while hunting for more than 30 years. Feel lucky that up to now it has not been called upon, but sure have run into some critters by surprise. Handgun part is for working through tight brush and working through choked stands of timber. In those situations in close quarters a handgun for personal protection is good where the barrel length keeps you from being able to use your rifle. In the various areas I hunt in you could run into griz, lion, wolf and what ever else lives in the forest. I hunt with a 300 Winchester mag so the only thing the 1911 would ever be used for is very up close and personal. Sure a 44 mag or something with more energy would be better, with all of the gear I'm packing up the hill I don't want a handgun that weighs twice what a 1911 weighs and don't want to have to pack that cannon in a chest rig. Doing experiments with friends with 44's on close in targets, I can empty the 7 round mag into the targets kill zone faster than they can get the first 2 shots off. The friends with the Red hawk and the smith 29 had switched to liter pistols within 2 seasons of doing this experiment at the range. 1911 sure isn't better by a long shot, but if you have it with you and can use it, it sure beats one that is better that you can't deploy or get shots off fast enough with.

[JSnover]

The man did say he would carry a 45-70. The pistol was the backup gun, as in: when you rifle empty and you backup inna tree.
Ive seen a cornered bear spin 180 degrees and leap 15 feet, literally in the blink of an eye. They are fast. ​Carry whatever you want, but move carefully and make every effort to see the bear before it's too late/too close.

[Bardo]

What about pepper spray? When i lived in alaska in the late 90s they sold it at costco For bears and there was a video playing showing them spraying it 30 feet. i would hate to be down wind.

[Airman Basic]

What about pepper spray? When i lived in alaska in the late 90s they sold it at costco For bears and there was a video playing showing them spraying it 30 feet. i would hate to be down wind.

111824

[MT Marlin Shooter]

The 45 ACP IS NOT A BEAR DEFENSE ROUND.

Tell your friend to get a 22lr pistol: a Bushmaster, or a Ruger Mk III. Best Bear Defense gun in the world. Make sure to always go into the woods with a friend or two. If you see a charging bear, shoot one of your buddies in the knee and RUN LIKE HELL!

Seriously, by the time you get a heavy enough projectile going fast enough to reliably penetrate a Kodiak's skull (heart shots just make them angry), you will have destroyed your semi auto pistol, which was never designed to handle those types of pressures. Or you will have to replace the spring with a really stout spring and then you can't shoot ACP from it. Bite the bullet (so to speak) and either get a Super Redhawk in 45 lc or 44 mag, or move up to the 460 or 500's. If your friend is recoil adverse, tell him to stop kidding himself. Use a rifle. Really, killing the big browns is a job best left to a rifle. Better yet, just avoid them by being aware of your surroundings, talk to the rangers before you head out, keep a clean camp, etc. I agree with the Blackfeet: It's bad ju-ju to kill a bear.

Greg