Frustration abounds

[Toymaker]

Saw the great advice another post got and thought “Why not?” so here we go. All shooting was done at 25 yards.Target was the NRA Official 50-yard Slow FirePistol Target modified with a white paper disk covering the X and 10 ring.

The pistol – a Ruger “Old” Vaquero in 45 Colt. The cylinder chambers have been reamed to 0.453 inch. The bore has been slugged 1 inch up the throat and measured 0.4525 inch. One inch down the muzzle it is 0.4520 inch. The gap between the face of the cylinder and throat is 0.007 inch. The cylinder chambers have been tested and adjusted to align with the throat. The muzzle has been re-crowned. The trigger spring has been released to reduce the trigger pull.

The ammo– a wide variety of commercial ammo has been tried. One was a 255 grain FMJ-FP. The others have been cast RN-FP ranging from 200 to 255 grains. One bullet of each brand was disassembled so the components could be weighed, measured and examined. All rounds were chronographed at least once. One brand grouped promisingly once but the results haven’t been duplicated since.

Reloads– once fired Starline brass; trimmed to 1.2775 inches; H2O volume 2.75 ml; CCI Large Pistol primer; commercial cast RNFP bullets; 255 grains, 0.454 inch diameter, 0.654 inch long, BHN 12, lube looks and feels like NRA lube (50/50 lube, 50% beeswax/50% Alox). Bullets were run through 0.454 inch sizing die. The load was Unique powder with charges from 6.0 grains to 8.5 grains in 0.5 grain increments. Based on measurements on the commercial rounds a 0.025 inch taper crimp was used. O.A.L. was 1.600 inches. All rounds were chrongraphed at least once. No promising groups. At this time it was learned that recoil cannot be limited, retarded or restricted in anyway. The pistol must be shot off-hand, one-hand. Therefore, testing was repeated. Placement of the groups moved from low/left to low/center but nothing promising was found.

A load of 38 grains Swiss 11/2, 0.03 inch over powder wad was tried. The bullet was cleaned of the lube and re-lubed with SPG. The load was compressed with the bullet to an O.A.L. of 1.600 inches. Velocity was 773 fps average. Off the bench the first 5 rounds grouped nicely (:shock:contrary to findings:shock:) inside the 8-inch black but either the lube failed or fouling caused the remaining 7 rounds to scatter.

Bullet was changed to an RCBS-45-255 SWC bullet. This is a modification to a Keith design specifically for the 45Colt. Bullets dropped at 272 grains, 0.454 inch diameter, 0.721 inch long, BHN 11. Bullets were run through a 0.454 inch sizing die and lubed with Ben’s Red. Case specifications were unchanged. Crimp was 0.0239 inch. O.A.L. was 1.6694 inches. The load was Unique powder with charges from 6.0 grains to 10.5 grains in 0.5 grain increments. Twelve rounds of each load was chronographed from the bench. Twelve rounds of each load was fired off-hand, one-hand for group. The 10.0 grain load showed promise at 17,977 psi, 973 fps. Time has not permitted a retest of this load yet.

I’ve seen a duplicate “New” Vaquero, RCBS-45-270 bullet, 7.5 grains TiteGroup, 19,432 psi, 875 fps, perform beautifully. This makes me think a faster powder, i.e. Titegroup or 700X, will improve placement and accuracy. My thinking is that the pressure curve occurs sooner in the firing sequence, bumps the bullet sooner, raises and tightens the group. The“Old” Vaquero can take higher pressures than the “New”, but I don’t want to exceed 20,000 psi.

My “frustration”may be apparent. Although I can hold my own, I am not a pistol shooter. So I would appreciate and give thanks for more expert thoughts and insights.

[dtknowles]

You don't give the size of any of the groups, what do you consider unacceptable? I think you should go back to shooting from a rest for accuracy testing, hard to shoot tight groups offhand. Your bullets are harder than they need to be but I don't think that is your accuracy problem.

Tim

[Larry Gibson]

At this time it was learned that recoil cannot be limited, retarded or restricted in anyway. The pistol must be shot off-hand, one-hand.

I’ve seen a duplicate “New” Vaquero, RCBS-45-270 bullet, 7.5 grains TiteGroup, 19,432 psi, 875 fps, perform beautifully.

Although I can hold my own, I am not a pistol shooter.

Toymaker

From all the above statements I'd say the gun is shooting to your ability. That is not criticism but an objective observation based on what you've stated. Unless you are at least a Master Class handgun shooter who shoots thousands of rounds a year from a handgun one handed then testing by shooting one handed at 25 yards is no way to test accuracy of the load/handgun. Any handgun and load will shoot to it's best if properly rested. If you do not know how to do that then ask, research and learn how. I suggest you just load up a bunch of those 255 RNFP over that 8.5 gr Unique charge. It is considered a classic load and shoots well in every 45 Colt I've shot it in. Learn to shoot that load in your Vaquero using a good bench rest technique and a solid rest. Once you get it shooting very small groups at 25 yards (around 2" would be fine) then begin testing different loads using the same shooting technique. I like to shoot "twice around the cylinder" test strings of 10 or 12 shots with each test load.

"My “frustration”may be apparent" and so it is and will remain so until you learn to shoot and test loads properly.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

You have seen some good observations. Another couple might help.......... let someone you know to be a very good handgun shot try your loads..... and..... reduce your alloy hardness to about 8 BHN or so.

[Toymaker]

Let's see - acceptable group. Off-hand, two handed hold, with my Colt Officers Model Match 38 I can hold the white disk with 12 rounds, which I think is about 3 inches in diameter, with a stray or two in the 9 or 8 ring. With my Sig P229 40 caliber I'm inside the black. The Beretta Storm Subcompact 40 caliber opens up to inside the 6 ring. I'd think the Vaquero should group like the Colt, but like the Sig would be acceptable. What I'm getting is hitting paper, mostly.
I can certainly go to a softer alloy. I have a pot with 30:1 that I can crank up and cast tomorrow. My concern was leading since it appeared velocities were going to be in the 800 to 1,000 fps range.
The pistol actually belongs to a son. I'm trying to find a "neighborhood" and then will load test and then practice groups for him.

[dtknowles]

The 45 is going to recoil much more than the 38 or the 40 and with the SAA grip it is a different animal. I don't think it will ever shoot like the 38. I know that the gun was worked over but the reviews I have seen say that off the bench the 45 will not do much better than 3 inches. All that said it should still hold the black I would think.

Tim

[Eutectic]

Toymaker,

Rest it.... Plain ol' sandbags. Place a sacrificial (like an old towel) on the top bag. Push the lower front of the frame into the bags. NOTHING UNDER THE BUTT BUT AIR! Grip the grips firmly with your 'trigger' hand. Use you second hand as support (not grip!) Small groups need perfect 'let off' so squeeze.....

Softer alloy as 45 2.1 stated is my suggestion as well. I would size .453"as that is your cylinder throat size and your boolits will be that size anyway when meeting the bore. Sizing in a good concentric die will usually 'beat' a cylinder sizing job for straight. You might slow the burn rate of powder choice. Many use HS-6 as a favorite with the Keith bullet cast (not bought) with awful good results. Myself included... It is a great and powerful field and hunting load as well. If your cylinder work was done correctly don't think a correctly tuned (and loaded) Ruger Blackhawk won't keep the shots touching each other at 25 yards. Mine is 4 5/8" and will as long as I do my part behind the butt.

Eutectic

[44man]

Off hand is misery for me today. tried to hit a bottle at 100 last week and was shaking all around it. Boolits hit where the sights were though.
Shoot open sights from Creedmore position. Real hard to see sights from bags. Get the gun far from your eyes. I shoot .452" from my Vaquero but .453" might do ya.

[prs]

I am not a bench shooter, but minute of pie plate makes me grin. Your Swiss loading seems too compressed, Swiss seems to perform best with just minimal compression. Even though Swiss burns with less fouling than most true black powders, it needs a true BP type boolit such as the 452190, the PRS, or one of those Jack Christian or John Boy had made to improve accuracy of the PRS. Seems odd that your barrel is choked, none of my old model Vaqueros are, they slug between .451 and .452 consistently. The advice to learn the quirks of the gun with a standard loading is really good, there is a lot of buck and roar to handle and the plow handled grips are quirky too if you are new to them. I may take the good advice given to you by Larry Gibson and Eutectic; build a solid bench with heavy sand bags topped by a terry towel and use well tested traditional loadings. I've NEVER done that with any gun, yet.

prs

[44man]

Plow handle is very forgiving to hold, Bisley will drive you nuts. Colt got it right.

[Hickok]

If you don't have access to a good bench and sandbags, make yourself a set of crosssticks. Put a heavy towel or something padded right at the vee of the crosssticks. Sit down on your butt, pull your knees up and rest your back against something, tree, wall, even the wheel on your vehicle. Take a two hand hold of your handgun, rest your wrists on the padded vee of the crosssticks, get the sticks adjust for the right height and shoot.

You can also do this by resting you elbows on the inside of your knees, but I shoot better with the crossticks. ALWAYS keep the muzzle and cylinder gap away from any portion of your body!!!

By resting my wrists this way, I find my handgun shoots pretty close to any two hand field position I use hunting.

I would also try the load Larry recommended, 8.5 or even 9.0 gr of Unigue with a 255 gr cast boolit. If your Vaquero wont shoot that load, (assuming you have a good cast boolit, properly sized and lubed), it probably wont shoot anything good.

After you start getting good groups from a rest, then go to the off-hand shooting and practice, practice, practice. Just to ask, are you getting into Cowboy action shooting, hunting, or just fun shooting?

(You might as well start casting your own if you are going to be shooting much)

[Eutectic]

Plow handle is very forgiving to hold, Bisley will drive you nuts. Colt got it right.

+1+ on this statement! ~~:bigsmyl2:

Eutectic

[44man]

Work must be done from some support, never off hand. You need made of stone for that. Once accuracy is found, then you go off hand and never before.

[45 2.1]

Plow handle is very forgiving to hold, Bisley will drive you nuts. Colt got it right.


+1+ on this statement! ~~:bigsmyl2:

Eutectic

Some people have smaller hands than you guys do..... they can handle the Bisley grip quite well, more so than the plow handle Colt. My large handed friends usually get a finger or two really banged up on a Bisley.

[Toymaker]

I failed to mention that, at first, you had to aim at the top right corner of the target paper to hit in the lower left corner. Turned the barrel until there was the 0.007 inch space between the cylinder face and throat to bring it to center. Don't want to turn it any more. Thing was, off-hand it would shoot to center, but low. Off the bench it would go back to low left. Rest positions, on a block with sandbags, were 1) resting on the trigger guard; 2) resting on the butt of the grip; 3) resting on wrist with pistol free; 4) resting on mid-forearm with pistol free; 5) resting on forearm at elbow with pistol free; 6) resting on upper arm, just before the elbow, with pistol free. Groups were always low and left. Two handed grip off-hand = low and left. Off-hand TIGHT grip one handed = low and left. Off-hand soft one handed grip = low and center. I was shooting 10 grains of Unique one-handed, off-hand with a soft grip and the first 5 were low, center. I could feel myself tightening up on the grip to control the recoil and #6 went low, left. Reload and the first 2 were low, center but I started tightening up the grip again and they went low, left. I'll go back to the bench as suggested. I'll also have a friend, a very good pistol shot, give it a try. I have to admit I've never had a firearm confound me like this one has. Everyone,,,, thank you for the ideas and suggestions. They are much appreciated.

A pistol is used to get back to the rifle that I shouldn't have put down to begin with.

[Mk42gunner]

Rule #1 with a fixed sight handgun. First you find the load, then you adjust the sights. If you need a four foot square of paper to catch both the point of aim and point of impact, so be it. It is much easier to raise POI after finding the load than it is to lower it.

As you have found, how the shooter grips the gun has a big impact on where it shoots.

I would have your son (the eventual primary shooter) do the shooting when the sights are adjusted.

Robert

[44man]

All handguns must be held tight, just short of shaking. The plow handle should be held low to get your finger in as straight a line to the trigger as you can. I varied my grip on the plow handle as distance changed shooting IHMSA without a change in POI. Can't be done with a Bisley or S&W 29, a few ounces pressure in the wrong place will move the POI. Shoot either a few shots, put the gun down and then pick it up again and you will hit somewhere else. The 29 drove me nuts. I would shoot a 1/2" group at 50 meters, put the gun down to paint the target and the next group was still 1/2" but 10" from the first. I would hit the first five chickens at 50 meters dead center. Targets reset and would miss the next five. Bisley the same. Only twice in my life did I shoot a good group with a Bisley.
Never, ever let a grip "roll" in your hand. Those that say that need spanked.

[GoodOlBoy]

Mkay a couple of things as a older model ruger shooter who has had issues (several of which you have already solved for)

#1 look down the muzzle (gun unloaded please) and see if under the front sight was originally drilled for a blackhawk screwed on front sight then plugged and the plug wasn't re-cut to match the rifling. I have seen this one ONCE and ONLY ONCE on a old ruger vaquero in 45LC.

#2 give up on the .454s altogether. Try softer .452s and see if that isn't a BIG help in the problemo. Also at this point scrub the TAR out of it with hoppes number 9 and as many brushes and patches as you can put down the bore without your arms falling off and flopping on the ground.

#3 have a different gunsmith look it over. I have never seen a vaquero of ANY model that needed the timing adjusted, the muzzle recrowned, or the barrel twisted down to get good accuracy. These were all things I have seen done to colts and clones, but never to vaqueros. Only vaquero/blackhawk issue I have seen consistently is cylinder throat issues and you have already taken care of that.

#4..... send it back to ruger, let them know what it is doing. Make sure you pull any custom parts off of it as you won't get them back on the rebuild.

That's my 2 cents. I think the other posters also gave you very good information.

GoodOlBoy

[44man]

Best bore cleaner I have found is Butch's bore shine. His triple twill patches are also the best. Use a jag, not a slotted tip. Use a muzzle protector and a steel one piece rod, not aluminum jointed junk. Protect the muzzle at all costs.
I shoot from the bench by resting the muzzle near the end on a bag and the butt on another but find open sights hard from a bench. Creedmore is better with open sights, gets them far from your eyes. You have three points of contact, barrel on your blast shield, hand against the side of your thigh and elbow on the ground, (pad your elbow.) Nothing has proven more accurate then Creedmore. That will also make the sights be the same as off hand.
Never, ever work a gun or load off hand. We are frail hunks of shaking flesh. Get my age and watch the gun dance! [smilie=l: