Serrated Brass - Where or How?

[kenn]

I got about 1K pieces of 9MM brass that was "once fired, yeah right" in trade. About 10% has a heavy serration mark on the side that looks like it was crimped into the brass. Either my search google-fu is rusty or I'm not searching for the right thing, but I came of with very little on the internet. Here's what one looks like. Is this caused by a particular barrel or factory crimp that I'm not aware of? It seems the case wall is noticeably thinner at that ring and it can be seen from the inside as well. What is the origin of this mark and, more importantly, what is the concern for this splitting in a moderate 9MM load?

[Bonz]

that brass case has been 'cannelured' to keep the projectile from going deeper inside the case due to recoil. Aguilla does that with most if not all of their 9mm ammo. I have also seen a lot of 'personal protective' rounds cannelured. I reload these all the time and have not experienced any problems. Another thing to remember is that Aguilla was rated the 2nd best reloading brass due to its quality and the amount of times that it can be safely reloaded.

109891

[HeavyMetal]

Yep "canelured" if not by the factory by someone with the tool to do so, may have been a bulk reloader selling and he just didn't want to hear of problems with his ammo.

in any case I would load 20 rounds and inspect the case's for issue's upon firing, if they strech a bunch I'd call the guy on it unless he provided pic's or other disclaimers about the brass, then it's buyer beware.

This is not from a chamber or from a loading die and it looks deep in the picture proceed with caution.

[azrednek]

that brass case has been 'cannelured' to keep the projectile from going deeper inside the case due to recoil. Aguilla does that with most if not all of their 9mm ammo. I have also seen a lot of 'personal protective' rounds cannelured. I reload these all the time and have not experienced any problems. Another thing to remember is that Aguilla was rated the 2nd best reloading brass due to its quality and the amount of times that it can be safely reloaded.

109891

I was told many years ago by a guy that worked in a WW2 ammo factory. The reason for the crimp is to keep the bullet from going to far in, holding it at the correct depth during the assembly process. The brass we were talking about at the time was WW2 45ACP. My best guess, is either theory is probably correct.

Aguilla ammo factory was originally owned and set up by Remington. I could be wrong but I believe it was one of many USA factories opened in Mexico during the Carter era. Carter in his attempt to give the Mexican economy a boost sent many USA manufactures south of the border by giving them generous tax breaks.

[twc1964]

I have lots of 38spl brass like that. i just reload it and not worry. i have such cases with at least ten reloads on em and never a problem. pockets will go first.

[dondiego]

I have thousands of rounds of brass with that cannelure in many calibers and have never lost a piece of bass at the cannelure. Mine usually split at the mouth of the case after 20 or more reloadings.

[bedbugbilly]

All I reload is "range brass" - I have plenty of these in both 38 spl and 9mm. Never had a problem with them as far as reloading or shortened case life - if it concens you, segregate some out and reload them. I think you'll find that they will be just fine though.

[John Boy]

In addition to the cannelure on the OP's case ... look at the mouth of the case. It is serrated!
It should be absolutely smooth
The cause for the serrations is the sleeve in a factory crimp die. The sleeve is worn out and needs to be replaced

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Cannelure like that is very common. Military ball .45, Winchester .45-70 brass, older .38-55, other pistol calibers. Some older heavy recoiling rifles calibers have a cannelure somewhere over the bullet similar to a crimp. All my Winchester .45-70 brass, bought bulk and unfired has a very deep cannelure. It has provided many 5-10 reloads per case and still going.

[fredj338]

As noted, this has been done for decades, quite common on 45colt, 45acp, some 9mm. It's not an issue, reload as normal.

[Love Life]

Cannelure on brass?

[Cowboy_Dan]

Pretty much all of the .45 Colt brass I have has that canelure to greater or lesser extent. Not a single one has failed from firing, but I have kiled a couple loading them with oversize boolets for a "generous" bore.

[bob208]

I have seen it many times before. even on .45-70 win. brass. after about 3-4 loadings it irons out.

[EDG]

That cannelure is present on some Federal, Winchester and Remington 45-70 brass. I have also seen it on .38 Special and .357 Magnum. I think it is limited to straight cased rounds. All you can do is load it and shoot it. Discard when the brass finally goes bad.

In BPCR rifles they sometimes wet wipe the bore and accidentally leave the chamber wet between shots. The black powder loads will cause the front end of the case to tear off at the old cannelure.

Cannelure marks or serrations on case mouths are even more common from cases loaded for factory ammo with jacketed bullets.
The factory gives the case mouth a heavy crimp into the serrated cannelure on the bullet. The serrated "teeth" on the bullets nick the case mouth transferring the serration pattern to the case mouth. I can probably show you 10,000 rifle cases that have not been trimmed with those nicks. They include the .222, 6mm Rem on up to .375 Win.

[mdi]

I have thousands of rounds of brass with that cannelure in many calibers and have never lost a piece of bass at the cannelure. Mine usually split at the mouth of the case after 20 or more reloadings.

I have the same experience as dondiego. Yep, cannalured cases have been around forever, jes load and shoot...

With no offence to the OP, I sometimes wonder how much experience with firearms some of the reloaders around here really have. The cannalure on brass has been around from way before I ever picked up a gun and if anyone ever shot/handled/saw a .38 Special, they would have seen it...

[Shiloh]

No issues with the serrations. Load, fire, repeat.

Shiloh

[dtknowles]

With no offence to the OP, I sometimes wonder how much experience with firearms some of the reloaders around here really have. The cannalure on brass has been around from way before I ever picked up a gun and if anyone ever shot/handled/saw a .38 Special, they would have seen it...

I expect that around here there is a variety of experience from New bee's just started to Old timers with decades of experience. I bet that a lot of new shooters have never seen or shot a .38 Special, not all that popular with new shooters. To the OP I have only seen the one piece of brass from the lot you bought (the one you pictured) but I don't know why you think the brass is not as the seller described (once fired).

Tim

[kenn]

I have the same experience as dondiego. Yep, cannalured cases have been around forever, jes load and shoot...

With no offence to the OP, I sometimes wonder how much experience with firearms some of the reloaders around here really have. The cannalure on brass has been around from way before I ever picked up a gun and if anyone ever shot/handled/saw a .38 Special, they would have seen it...

No offense taken but I can assure you that I have shot many different types of weapons - both military and civilian. I've sold most/many and culled the list, though. Here's what I have fired (at least a few hundred rounds to make my list):

.22LR
.223
30-.06
7.62x39
7.62x51
.380
9MM
.38spl
.357 magnum
.45ACP
.50BMG
.410
12 Gauge
20 Gauge

I was in the military and fired thousands of .223, 7.62x51 (m60), 9MM and 45ACP. Privately I have fired many thousands of rounds of commercial .22lr, .380, 9MM, and .45ACP. I buy whatever is on sale but usually what is cheap like winchester white box, CCI, or some flavor of Remington such as UMC. I've only fired perhaps 750 or so .38spl in total from the same cheap mfrs as I never ran any duty ammo through my revolvers and being stiff DAO, not one of my range guns unless I'm just mixing it up. In all those thousands of rounds fired, I've never seen a cannelured casing. Ever. Hard to imagine if they are that common but it's true nonetheless.

As far as, "If they've ever handled/been around/fired .38spl they'd have seen it", that's not true. I've shot about 10-15 boxes of CCI .38spl and none of it was cannelured... Same for the winchester and UMC stuff I shot. You can go into your sporting goods store of choice and find plenty of .38spl ammo without the cannelure because that's precisely what I've done apparently.

[kenn]

I expect that around here there is a variety of experience from New bee's just started to Old timers with decades of experience. I bet that a lot of new shooters have never seen or shot a .38 Special, not all that popular with new shooters. To the OP I have only seen the one piece of brass from the lot you bought (the one you pictured) but I don't know why you think the brass is not as the seller described (once fired).

Tim

Some of the once-fired is pretty rough and that one piece has already been cleaned so it isn't representative of the lot. I don't care, really about the condition as I inspect and anything that doesn't look good goes in the cull pile. That's not the issue and 9mm brass is cheap in bulk. I was more concerned of the possibility of what I now know to be cannelured brass splitting at the mark. A couple of the cases bulged strangely around the cannelure mark which clearly indicated (to me) a weaker point in the brass as it looked like it folded on the dotted line. Given all the feedback here I'm going to fire some (the ones that didn't "fold" at the mark when the neck was expanded) and see how it goes.

[Dusty Bannister]

It may be that you never noticed a cannalure, but they are often present. Being in service, and thank you for that, you often picked up your brass, but not being a reloader, you probably never even looked at the case mouth, or the primer to see how the gun was working. Now that you are getting started in reloading, you are beginning to look at these things and see the difference. It is not a problem, just an indication that you are beginning to check more closely than you did in the past.

You might not even have any idea that the 45 acp now uses small primers as well as large primers. But you will figure that out when you reload the cases. Without looking in the brass bucket, can you say if you have run across this yet? Good luck and keep inspecting your brass every time you handle it. Dusty

[dtknowles]

Some of the once-fired is pretty rough and that one piece has already been cleaned so it isn't representative of the lot. I don't care, really about the condition as I inspect and anything that doesn't look good goes in the cull pile. That's not the issue and 9mm brass is cheap in bulk. I was more concerned of the possibility of what I now know to be cannelured brass splitting at the mark. A couple of the cases bulged strangely around the cannelure mark which clearly indicated a weaker point in the brass. Given all the feedback here I'm going to fire some (the ones that didn't "fold" at the mark when the next was expanded) and see how it goes.

So in understand now why you wonder about the brass, sounds like the brass would have been better described as Unprocessed Range Pickups mixed headstamps most likely ones fired. About the Cannalure, it is intended to put a ridge on the inside of the case so if your neck expander pushed that far into the case I guess it could bulge the case.

Tim

[MBTcustom]

So in understand now why you wonder about the brass, sounds like the brass would have been better described as Unprocessed Range Pickups mixed headstamps most likely ones fired. About the Cannalure, it is intended to put a ridge on the inside of the case so if your neck expander pushed that far into the case I guess it could bulge the case.

Tim

Strange. I always thought it was there to keep the projectile from getting shoved deeper into the case. Like a double crimp in effect. I could be wrong though.

[dtknowles]

Strange. I always thought it was there to keep the projectile from getting shoved deeper into the case. Like a double crimp in effect. I could be wrong though.

I agree that is the reason, I was just pointing out that if you drive the expander past the cannalure you might make a ring on the outside of the case.

Tim

[kenn]

It may be that you never noticed a cannalure, but they are often present. Being in service, and thank you for that, you often picked up your brass, but not being a reloader, you probably never even looked at the case mouth, or the primer to see how the gun was working. Now that you are getting started in reloading, you are beginning to look at these things and see the difference. It is not a problem, just an indication that you are beginning to check more closely than you did in the past.

You might not even have any idea that the 45 acp now uses small primers as well as large primers. But you will figure that out when you reload the cases. Without looking in the brass bucket, can you say if you have run across this yet? Good luck and keep inspecting your brass every time you handle it. Dusty

Yeah, I already new about the SPP vs LPP brass in .45ACP both from reading here and having purchased (and fired) 1K of CCI blazer brass. I've got it sorted in two different canisters. About 2/3 is SPP, mostly my own range brass and 1/3 LPP from some I had from long ago and a local trade for a box of live rounds.

[EDG]

The rolled in case cannelure puts a ring inside the case. Sizing and expanding the brass tends to flatten it.
Firing the reloaded rounds also tends to flatten the cannelure. After 3 or 4 firings the cannelure will be somewhat flattened and will cease to be a matter for attention.

[Zymurgy50]

The rolled in case cannelure puts a ring inside the case. Sizing and expanding the brass tends to flatten it.
Firing the reloaded rounds also tends to flatten the cannelure. After 3 or 4 firings the cannelure will be somewhat flattened and will cease to be a matter for attention.


After 15-20 firings it will almost cease to exist......

[mdi]

I have shot/reloaded a bit over the last 30 years and every handgun caliber kenn mentioned have some cases with a cannalure (I have a lot of 45 ACP and 9mm military brass and the cannalure is present on a good portion). Every case I reload gets inspected before reloading. I look at it inside and out, so it would be pretty difficult to miss something that encircled the entire case body.

Didn't mean to judge anyone's experiences, jes wondering how some common things can get missed...

[dondiego]

I have also seen some military .45 ACP brass that had several piercings around the circumference of the brass just at the base of the bullet where a cannelure would be. Wartime convenience?

[mdi]

I have also seen some military .45 ACP brass that had several piercings around the circumference of the brass just at the base of the bullet where a cannelure would be. Wartime convenience?
"Stake crimping". Not common, but same principle as a cannalure...