How hard can you push non gas checked bullets?

[andym79]

How guys, I am thinking of experimenting on how hard I can push bullets without a GC.

I appreciate that pressure and twist have more to do with this than velocity.

The alloy in question will be a 6/10/84 mix (non hunting alloy) the BHN is close to 20.

How hard do you think I might be able to drive them with a powder like H4895(AR2206H), Varget (AR2208) or even H4350 (AR2209).

The bullet can be sized between .001-.003 oversized!

I am hoping to be able to hang the expense of GCs (I know harder alloys cost more, but here in Aus GC are $50/1000) at least for target shooting!

Thanks

[500MAG]

Rifle or revolver?

[andym79]

Should have mentioned 24" barrelled rifle!

[Stephen Cohen]

With the powders your talking of you must be using a rifle or contender I guess. I am about to again take up what your trying to do. I don't thing it is hard to drive them to velocities of 1500 to 1800 fps depending on calibre, some calibres are harder than others to get good results from. I have driven 535gr cast to just on 1500fps in my 458 WM and 250gr cast to the same in my 375 Whelen, both with no leading. I do believe that you will need gas checks to get over the 1800 mark with accuracy and no leading, I doubt very much that the harder alloy will help you much and may in fact hinder your efforts. At the moment I am in the process of seeing how hard I can push cast that I have coated with the Hi-Tek coating which pretty much stops leading even at high velocities, there have been some who have used this coating and conventional lube to gain accuracy at higher velocities. Sorry I cant be of more help but in the end it will be a try and see how it goes.

[500MAG]

Accuracy will drop at velocities above 1600. If your application doesn't require more you should be fine.

[andym79]

I doubt very much that the harder alloy will help you much and may in fact hinder your efforts.

I believe in that much you may be right, the harder alloy will stand up to a higher pressure, but is probably more likely to lead the bore.

However I know for sure that a soft alloy won't push past 1600fps too successfully!

The true property to enhance velocity is tensile strength rather than hardness, hence why copper can withstand such velocity and rpm!

I believe the coating really does limit leading, I did a lot of shooting with HRBC projectiles before I got in to casting a frequently pushed them to between 1900-2200 fps with out leading issues!

[Stephen Cohen]

In my view casting and the use of them, is only just becoming properly understood in this country and I attribute that to this site and those like it. I still hear people saying add more tin as if that cures all ills. In all reality 90% of all shooting in this country could be handled by lead in the 1500 fps range, I have not shot an animal at better than 100 mtrs in many years.

[popper]

Cut that alloy by 2/3 with pure & oven treat. My 308 does 2400+ checked, ~ 1800 unchecked ( 165 gr & 4895). Got the 150 gr. PB to 1700 & accurate. Both are ARs. PCd of course.

[dtknowles]

I have read that every rifle is unique and you will not really know until you try but like others have said 1800 fps is typical top end for plain based bullets and you need to see what alloy and load works to get there or better. I have a load I am working on for .22 Hornet with a 45 grain bullet and have tried a couple different diameters and OALs to see if I can get it to shoot well at 1800 fps. It shows promise with groups with bullet holes often touching but 10 shot groups are 3 inch range at 100 yards and show a tendency to form two groups about an inch apart. I am thinking this load might be powder position sensitive so testing that is the next step. I am using 50/50 ALOX/Beeswax lube and 50/50 Range scrap/COWW. But I have harder alloys and a high speed lube I am going to try just to see how that goes. This is the fastest I have tried to push a plain base bullet.

Tim

[fredj338]

I've taken 45-70 to 1600fps w/o gc, clip ww alloy.

[Larry Gibson]

Concur that accuracy will deteriorate between 1600 - 1800 fps with PB'd cast in rifles depending on alloy and whether the bullet has a flat or bevel base (and then the degree of BB comes in to play).

At $50 per thousand for GCs I would think you would invest in a GC maker or make one? Even then 1,000 shots is a lot of shooting for most. I buy some GCs for calibers I really don't shoot that often/much. I make GCs for those I do shoot a lot of; 22, 30, 31, 8mm, 35. Probably will make a couple GC makers for 44 and 45 calibers.

Larry Gibson

[quilbilly]

As a rule of thumb I have always gas checked anything I shoot over 1500 fps whether I need to or not but I have pushed several loads and calibers to 1500 with no problem. Gas checks allow you more flexibility to experiment which his good for a pathological tinkerer like myself who can't help fixing things that aren't broke.

[andym79]

Would probably be wise to use a medium alloy say BHN12-14, GC it and lube it really well. With this particular rifle, I am on the verge of selling or using the bad type of projectile!

As a re-barrel to a slower twist would be a false economy!

[Harter66]

I get plain based to 1800 in x39,1900 in 06', 2100 in 32 Rem all w/IMR 4350 .

[andym79]

Well curiosity got the better of me, I casted up around 50 bullets with the hard alloy on Saturday!

Loaded up 20 using the ladder method, I used AR2207 as I had a lot of success using it with a GC bullet with a similar design.

Took them to the range today.

Short answer, the alloy is too hard!

At the beginning of the ladder accuracy was terrible and I had a lot of soot around the neck, at one stage in the middle of the ladder, I had to stop to clean the barrel, a strip of lead 2" long was hanging from the rifling near the muzzle. At the upper end of the ladder, leading was less noticeable, but the bullets were not even holding paper!

I guess at the lower end pressure was too low to fully seal but the bullet wasn't fully stripped.

Plain based bullets in the 6.5X55 using this alloy would only be effective using a fast powder with velocity sub 1400fps!

A softer alloy with a slower powder is definitely required!

[PAT303]

My swede,with 1-9 twist shoots 150grn plain base over 12 grains of trail boss into 1/2'' at 50,GC over 20grns of 2205 into 1'' at 100.Buy checks from sage outdoors on ebay,I have for years. Pat

[DonH]

Harder isn't always better with plain base bullets. The melting point of antimony is considerably lower than lead or tin. Not saying alloys containing antimony won't work, just saying keep an open mind about your alloy.

Some years back a gent I know was shooting plain base bullets of 25-1 lead/tin alloy to 1700-1800 fps without leading.

[mdi]

Oky-Doky, we've established 1600-1800 fps as a limit for plain based (no checks) lead bullets, and we have a few examples/experiences, but my mind says why? Does a lead bullet, no matter what the alloy is skid in the rifling at over 1800 fps? Does the lead bullet deteriorate from friction at over 1800 fps? Does the base erode, lose it's sealing ability at 1800 fps? What physically limits a lead bullet to a specific velocity through a rifle barrel?

Yeah, I guess this is a hijack, sorry...:oops:

[leadman]

A vendor here sells gas checks at a very reasonable price. Look up 338 RemUltra in the vendor section. I use his gcs' and found they work very well.
I use the Hi-Tek coating and the only plain base I have tested so far at higher velocities is the RCBS 210gr SWC for the 41 magnum. I pushed it over 1,550 fps with excellent accuracy. I think the boolit would take more velocity but I am at the limit for powder space.

I am going to test some rifle boolits without the gc to see what will happen.

[dtknowles]

Oky-Doky, we've established 1600-1800 fps as a limit for plain based (no checks) lead bullets, and we have a few examples/experiences, but my mind says why? Does a lead bullet, no matter what the alloy is skid in the rifling at over 1800 fps? Does the lead bullet deteriorate from friction at over 1800 fps? Does the base erode, lose it's sealing ability at 1800 fps? What physically limits a lead bullet to a specific velocity through a rifle barrel?

Yeah, I guess this is a hijack, sorry...:oops:

I would like to know as well, I don't even care to guess, anyone got real evidence of what happens?

Tim

[popper]

Valid questin. IIRC 303guy gave evidence of the damage the base takes from stick powder. Alloy of course determines when pressure causes stripping, gas cutting at the lands. We don't know what the damage is it to a non checked shank, bending, riveting, etc. I do think it is higher than commonly thought.

[PAT303]

I've shot some PB boolits to a good speed,I'm going to start using Hi-Tec coating and see how fast I can shoot the 6.5's with accuracy,I shoot field rifle so it needs to shoot inside the 10 ring,I plan on shooting 303's as well,so far from last weekends result simply seating the boolit over a wad cut groups in half.I have a large amount of .315 130grn PB coated boolits and a 50m training round loaded with Trail Boss,12grn shot an easy 20mm group outside to outside but adding a compressed fibre wad had them in one hole. Pat

[andym79]

My swede,with 1-9 twist

I wish my Swede had a 1-9 twist barrel, my has a standard stock 1-7.8 twist, has yours been re-barrelled?


The melting point of antimony is considerably lower than lead or tin.

Some years back a gent I know was shooting plain base bullets of 25-1 lead/tin alloy to 1700-1800 fps without leading.

I am not sure Antimony has a lower melting point than lead or tin, I thought it to be 1000F as opposed to 600F and 450F.

I think you are right in as much as the Antimony content maybe the problem as over 6-7% I believe it could be making the alloy too brittle!

25/1, I can believe it my 30-30 and 375W do very well up to 1500 FPS PB using that alloy!

[castalott]

Your case / cartridge will have some to do with it. Powder selection blends in with it. The old time cast bullet books talk of 'expansion ratios' to describe shock waves and such inside cases. These can actually deform bullet bases. Another part of it is keeping the pressure down by using a powder that makes a longer 'push' instead sharp 'wham'. (Think of a longer, lower pressure curve.)

Of course bullet fit is absolutely paramount.

The example used to explain all of this was comparing 30 carbine cast loads to the same bullet in the 300 mag(I think). That article said that greater useful velocities were possible in the smaller case (plain based bullets).

I believe this is from Col. Harrisons NRA book. Now don't you all get bent out of sorts if I remembered something wrong. I am trying to help.

Dale

[andym79]

The example used to explain all of this was comparing 30 carbine cast loads to the same bullet in the 300 mag(I think). That article said that greater useful velocities were possible in the smaller case (plain based bullets).

Dale

Makes sense I guess, especially relating to the 6.5x55, it a pretty large case for a small bullet; big cases are no friend of a cast bullet as they are not conducive to 80% powder fill!

That is one reason I think the 375W has given me an easy ride so far, its a pretty big bullet for the case and its parent the 38-55 was born to shoot cast!

[DonH]

I am not sure Antimony has a lower melting point than lead or tin, I thought it to be 1000F as opposed to 600F and 450F.



What should have and meant to say is that lead/tin/antimony alloys seem to a have a lower melting point than lead alone. I have read this in at least one publication (Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook?) as well as on this site. As I am not a metallurgist, I have to rely on the word of those who are.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?66241-Melting-points-of-Lead-and-Alloys

[45 2.1]

If you want to take a plain base boolit past the accepted 1,600 fps limit, then you have to protect the base some way. Those ways can be: free chec's, poly wads, fiber wads or various types of filler (BP original ground poly filler being the easiest to use). All of these have been used in the past to make a rather soft PB boolit go well over 2,000 fps with excellent accuracy.

[JimP.]

i use a product called puff-lon which is a lubricating filler in my cast bullet loads and do not get any leading no matter how fast i push them. Better accuracy also, higher velocity too, check it out. it works, www.pufflon.com JimP.

[mdi]

If you want to take a plain base boolit past the accepted 1,600 fps limit, then you have to protect the base some way. Those ways can be: free chec's, poly wads, fiber wads or various types of filler (BP original ground poly filler being the easiest to use). All of these have been used in the past to make a rather soft PB boolit go well over 2,000 fps with excellent accuracy.

OK, and not being a butt, but what actually happens at 1600 fps that will necessitate some kind of protection for the bullet's base? Does gas cutting at the pressure needed to drive a bullet at 1600 fps mean base deterioration? If so, would a larger caliber base mean one could drive the bullet faster? (.25 caliber vs .44 caliber). Pressure distributed over a larger area equal less gas damage with 1600 fps pressures?

[popper]

303guy's pics show definite severe dents from the unburned (yet) powder kernels on the base. He used a slow 4895 type powder, occurred on the way down the barrel. Filler plugs the 'holes' & protects the base. IMHO you need the small grain/flake powder for accuracy & HV from PB or checkless. It is the pressure on the BASE that produces velocity, main reason for BN cases. Pressure for 308/243 are ~ same but 243 is 1k fps more. Look at the loadings for both @ 100 gr.

[45 2.1]

OK, and not being a butt, but what actually happens at 1600 fps that will necessitate some kind of protection for the bullet's base? Does gas cutting at the pressure needed to drive a bullet at 1600 fps mean base deterioration? If so, would a larger caliber base mean one could drive the bullet faster? (.25 caliber vs .44 caliber). Pressure distributed over a larger area equal less gas damage with 1600 fps pressures?

The maximum pressure (in terms of force/unit area.... like P.S.I = pounds per square inch) works on the base of the boolit first and is distributed up into the boolit at a steadily reduced pressure. The base takes the brunt of the force... a gas check would strengthen the base and protect it from that pressure regardless of the boolit bases area.... remember that pressure is in PSI. Each square inch receives the same amount of force. All the types of protection listed either strengthen the boolit base OR places it farther from/insulates it from the force.

[PAT303]

If you want to take a plain base boolit past the accepted 1,600 fps limit, then you have to protect the base some way. Those ways can be: free chec's, poly wads, fiber wads or various types of filler (BP original ground poly filler being the easiest to use). All of these have been used in the past to make a rather soft PB boolit go well over 2,000 fps with excellent accuracy.
There was no doubt my Lee Enfield shot better with a wad under the PB boolit,even at the lower Pressure/speed I was shooting. Pat

[PAT303]

i use a product called puff-lon which is a lubricating filler in my cast bullet loads and do not get any leading no matter how fast i push them. Better accuracy also, higher velocity too, check it out. it works, www.pufflon.com (http://www.pufflon.com) JimP.
My enfields shoot better with some loadings with PL,I've used a few different types of filler and each rifle seems to be a law until itself as to what they like. Pat

[303Guy]

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/30grFILLER_35grNOFILLER_2209_208gr-1.jpg (http://s388.photobucket.com/user/303Guy/media/30grFILLER_35grNOFILLER_2209_208gr-1.jpg.html) Base damaged from powder kernels. The powder was H4350/2209. I laid out some kernels in the indents.

With some work I got to this.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/20gr2205205grPOLYPP007.jpg (http://s388.photobucket.com/user/303Guy/media/20gr2205205grPOLYPP007.jpg.html)

And a bit more powder.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/22gr2205214IMP006-1.jpg (http://s388.photobucket.com/user/303Guy/media/22gr2205214IMP006-1.jpg.html) That dent is from the mushroom curling right around. I peeled it back to reveal the dent.

Now if only I could remember what I did! And what the alloy was? Weight retention was around 98%.

[popper]

The last 2 pics a checkless boolit or bevel base? Anyway, thanks, proof of one of the problems with bare bases. I recovered some 40SW, hot load of 231 under a 180 TC, PCd - ~ 32K psi. Base only showed tails from resizing by the bore. World treating you right Guy?

[mdi]

OK fellers, now I am being a butt. Does anyone have a simple answer to the question; what happens to a bullet at 1600 fps that determines that as the limit? Yep PSI on the base of a bullet would be equal on the entire surface, I just threw that in to help find an answer. We have established 1600 as a maximun velocity, but what happens to a bullet at 1600 fps that's not there at 1500 fps? Does the bullet turn into silly putty at 1599 fps?

[dtknowles]

OK fellers, now I am being a butt. Does anyone have a simple answer to the question; what happens to a bullet at 1600 fps that determines that as the limit? Yep PSI on the base of a bullet would be equal on the entire surface, I just threw that in to help find an answer. We have established 1600 as a maximun velocity, but what happens to a bullet at 1600 fps that's not there at 1500 fps? Does the bullet turn into silly putty at 1599 fps?

That is an oversimplification, at least in my experience, with the right alloy and lube I never have accuracy problems under 1500 fps and in some cases I have acceptable accuracy at a little over 1800 and I am starting to work with more alloys and lubes to see if I can push even harder. I have not test for the effect of Muzzle Pressure but it might be as big an issue as velocity. Pressure rise rate is also a player but faster is not always worse. Some guns need soft bullets and a kick in the pants to get good accuracy. It is hard to get high velocity and low muzzle pressure with pistols.

Tim

[popper]

works on the base of the boolit first and is distributed up into the boolit at a steadily reduced pressure. Actually, no. Lead (alloy) is incompressable so pressure is equal through ALL the alloy. The force (energy used by) applied to the lands & acceleration & alloy DEFORMATION reduces the pressure - along with the expanding volume of the 'chamber'. Not trying to nitpick, just keep the physics correct.
I think Gear attributed the boolit action in the barrel to an egg eating snake. Picture the snake with rough/weak spots in it's tube. Surface of the boolit get 'worked' differently. Then add 303guy's boolit exiting the 'perfect' crown. The supersonic gasses exit a narrow 'slit' and velocity increases - watch the shock wave in slow mo videos. Any variation in the base/crown re-steers the boolit. Twist even counts - wonder why the flash hider has twist to it? Muzzle exit gasses can be 2-4x the boolit velocity, probably even cutting copper base. BB or BT bases increase the size of the 'slit' more rapidly - causing reduced velocity quicker. Force = mass * velocity. Even minor groove widening (stripping) effects the boolit condition. Enough rambling from me.

[Harter66]

I'm going to tip toe in here. I don't think that any particular speed is a limit and there are at least 10 factor catagory things that go w/the speed limits. I ran a load up to 1200 and the boolits scattered the change from Red Dot to Unique let me go on up to almost 1500 . I switched to IMR4350 and reached 1680 ,1800 and 1910 w/ a plain based 30cal naked 200 spire pointed boolit in 762x39(1-9.5), 30-06' (1-9) and 308(1-12) . I think the 308 was maxed out like the x39 by case volume but was just starting to close groups.

There is a 32 Rem (a rimless 1st cousin to the 32 Win) that would shoot all the 3'' groups a guy could want (I didn't demand a lot from a Model 14 Rem pump) in a simple brush gun. I needed it to make the Nv minimum standard so I had to step it up to IMR4350 to get there . Right outta the gate it gave me no leading ,2'' groups and 2100fps w/a 175 gr plain based 323-170 R2 Lee.

There is an 1903A3 that until I had the 301-172 NOE PP mould hadn't shot anything into less than a foot....... 4'' felt great w/start loads.

[castalott]

Popper- bear with me here as I am trying to understand. I would agree with you of lead being incompressible if it were a perfect cylinder (boolit) in a perfect cylinder(barrel). But our boolits are not perfect. They have voids and grease grooves and bore riding noses. It seems to me that pressure in the base could flow lead into these areas to cause multiple problems. Even a poor fit in the bore could cause the boolit to 'slouch' to one side and be off balance.

I freely admit to not being an expert. Understanding is what I desire...

Dale

[castalott]

And as I think about it, this could be another advantage of the new coatings. A boolit with no grease grooves would have to be less deformable than one with grease grooves. Logically you would think it could be pushed harder/faster without deforming or slouching. That means higher velocities and better accuracy. I am sitting here laughing at myself as I remember the times I was so so wrong...

Dale

[35remington]

Grease is incompressible. Grease in the grooves serves to minimize deformation.

[castalott]

Let's assume grease is incompressible ( I'm not so sure it is close enough to a liquid or a solid to be incompressible.), we still have bore fit.

What I read in the 1980's was that the base moves first and the rest of the bullet shortly thereafter. I didn't like it either. I don't like it now. But it might be true. Dr Mann's book had pictures of fmjs turned inside out after exiting very short barrels. He concluded that the barrel was holding the bullet together until the pressure fell below bullet strength.

I don't know guys...it's like oil wells. No one can see in there. We take what comes out and try to figure out what happened....

Dale

[GhostHawk]

First, when dealing with lead bullets and gunpowder with the pressures involved you need to think small, real small.

Imagine using a bead blaster or sand blaster to carve an ice block. Any "leak" of pressure/hot gases around the base of a bullet will cause cutting. The lead that gets cut gets deposited on the barrel, or some of it does.

A gas check is just a tougher material for those pressure jets to try to carve in the short time it takes to run down the barrel.

But that is why bullet size can be crucial to accuracy, along with alloy, sizing, powder choices, etc.
Each choice has consequences which add up. So some can push naked boolits faster and more accurately than others.

I don't necessarily think there are hard and permanent "walls" beyond which we can not go.
It is more like with this alloy, this shape, this powder you can run up to X speed before you lose too much accuracy.

Gas checks seem to have a major effect on how fast that bullet can be pushed.
So for 3-5 cents per boolit and a 17$ lee push through sizer die you can buy some pretty cheap accuracy insurance.
But it is only one factor of many.

[dualsport]

There you go. Read up also on Cream of Wheat as a filler. Many have 86'd it but a guy known here as Moly used to get amazing results. He was a cast bullet pioneer for sure. He got good hunting accuracy with velocity using soft alloys, no gc, no lube, and no leading! I've burned a lot of COW and never had any trouble.
If you want to take a plain base boolit past the accepted 1,600 fps limit, then you have to protect the base some way. Those ways can be: free chec's, poly wads, fiber wads or various types of filler (BP original ground poly filler being the easiest to use). All of these have been used in the past to make a rather soft PB boolit go well over 2,000 fps with excellent accuracy.

[popper]

Castalott you are correct, typically called slump. It moves to fill voids, bends, etc. lube gets sqeezed out by moving lead. I am using rifle boolits w/o lube grooves to allow soft alloy to have a large bearing area but they may be a tad slower due to friction. More testing to do.

[castalott]

Popper- I would be very interested in your methods and results. I hope you post them.

Dale

[303Guy]

The last 2 pics a checkless boolit or bevel base? Anyway, thanks, proof of one of the problems with bare bases. I recovered some 40SW, hot load of 231 under a 180 TC, PCd - ~ 32K psi. Base only showed tails from resizing by the bore. World treating you right Guy?I'm surviving thanks. Still taking strain though.

Those are bevel base boolits I made to prevent tail feathering from being sized by the bore. I was getting base cupping too. These were actually paper patched boolits but the effects should be the same. The big difference would be in attainable velocity.

Something I found with softer alloys was that nose slump can be quite severe and that's a small unsupported nose. I think that the paper patch prevents rifling skid and of course would form a perfect seal in the bore. It certainly allows a very worn or rusted bore to shoot quite well. I mention this with the hope that it might throw some light on the reason for that velocity limit (or RPM threshold).

[Stephen Cohen]

The velocities over 15 to 1600 would do some damage to good eating meat unless you head or neck shoot, I would trade speed for accuracy any day.

[Harter66]

I've seen some of the early high speed shadow photos some of which showed jacketed spire points deforming into round noses.

I believe that the acceleration curve has as much to do w/a succesful launch as base protection . Validable by slower powders being able to push faster w/all else staying the same,or maybe I've just been lucky ,harden the alloy a little go a little faster . Slower powder go a little faster . Get a slower twist go faster .... problem is that eventually you reach a point where your powder won't burn clean ,your WQ Lino breaks up on the target and shotguning the backer and/or you loose the ability to stablize the bullets. The above information would imply that a 1-32 30cal w/a 32? RB of WDLino should be able to go 4Kfps w/something like 4320.

Again it takes persistance and it isn't too hard to do and some set ups do it easier than others and some just won't do it.

[mdi]

Wow! I figgered I could get a definite answer to my simple question here, on the the premium cast bullet forum. I've read what a lot of you do, what some have "theories" about, and what sound like some plain old guesses. A bunch of folks will jump right in and state firmly "The limit of cast bullet shooting is 1600-1800 feet per second", but when asked why, well...

Thanks anyway fellers. Old Mike is outta here...

[Harter66]

Didja learn how to bump the speed limit ?

[mdi]

Wasn't interested in the speed limit (and I'm not real sure it's 1600-1800 fps, prolly faster with some work). When the question "How fast..." is asked, a bunch of 1600-1800 fps answers get posted. My question has always been "Why?"...

[dtknowles]

I think I have seen the "why" posted in this thread. I think you dismissed it as theory and guesses.

The evidence is scattered around this site in old or other posts.

Gas Cutting, Blow By - real not theory - gets worse at higher pressures and greater RPM

Pressure rise Base deformation - real not theory - gets worse at higher pressures

Muzzle Pressure deflection - real not theory - gets worse at higher pressures

Nose slump - real not theory - gets worse with higher RPM

Why 1500 to 1800 fps or so, based on experience. To get to the higher velocity pressures rise both the pressure rise rate and the muzzle pressure. At higher velocity the RPM's go up. Different people have different experience because they use different lubes, alloys, bullets shapes, powders.

Pick the right ones and you might get good accuracy at higher velocity.

Tim

[castalott]

One more thought at the risk of stating the obvious. A bullet's external ballistics can have an effect. I have read that wadcutters shoot fine at close range but go crazy farther out. Maybe not all but some do lose stability at extended ranges- even tumble by some reports.

My point is this- even if it leaves the muzzle 'good to go' ,it may not fly true. Take heart- It can be done.

Dale

[btroj]

Ain't but one way to know what your bullets can do in your guns.

go try some loads and see what happens, everything else is just speculation.

[rhead]

Ain't but one way to know what your bullets can do in your guns.

go try some loads and see what happens, everything else is just speculation.


True!!!! The only definitive answer to the question is you can push it until it fails.

It depends to some extent on how much effort you are willing to do to in order to delay the failure.