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View Full Version : Brass fouled bore...now what ?



JonB_in_Glencoe
07-05-2014, 09:01 PM
While shooting some Home swaged .243 bullets, that used rimfire brass as a jacket, in my Win. mod 70 (243win), I seemingly fouled up the bore real good :shock: :oops:

So, I had these loaded for some time...25 rounds. As I shot them, accuracy went south after about 10 rounds, I fired the last 15 but probably shouldn't have. When I was down to the last 5 and the previous 8 hadn't even hit the target, I checked the bore, The light conditions my weren't good enough to see any problems, so I fired the last five, missed the target every time.

I get home and clean the bore, and it's massively fouled with brass.
I am using Hoppes brand copper remover solution, it doesn't seem to touch it. The bronze brush gets a little bit, but the Copper remover doesn't turn the patches green/blue like it does when removing copper.

So here has been my procedure. I wet the bore with a patch of the Hoppes copper remover, let it sit for 5 minutes, brush several times, then cleanout the brass particles I loosened, with a couple dry patches. I've done this nearly 10 times, The patches appear to be removing about the same amount of particles each time. But, I'm not seeing much improvement when looking down the bore. Is there an easier way ?

Thanks for any help,
Jon


FYI, this gun was made in the 80's and has been shot very little, probably less than a box before I got it. I did shoot some castboolits through it a couple months ago. AND this morning, before I shot the Home swaged bullets, I shot 40 rounds of some J-word's I reloaded 12 years ago taylored for another rifle. I got 4 decent targets, each with 10 shots, 2" to 3" groups. My plan today was to just shoot up some J-words to break in a nearly NEW rifle, then clean it up thoroughly for shooting castboolits for my HV experiment.

Scharfschuetze
07-05-2014, 09:08 PM
You might try JB Bore Paste or Witches Brew. Both are mildly abrasive and are quite good at removing copper fouling. I've never used the Hoppes brand of copper solvent so I can't comment on that. What I have used for many years is Sweets 7.62 copper dissolving solvent and have found it to be most efficient on copper fouled bores, usually on a match rifle during and after the shooting season.

I would also suggest a Parker Hale type jag that gives much better cleaning patch to steel support and coverage.

Keep in mind that the ammonia content of the copper dissolving solvents will also work on your brass jags and brushes.

Sweetpea
07-05-2014, 09:09 PM
Have you tried some Sweet's 7.62?

375RUGER
07-05-2014, 09:17 PM
Outers Foul Out. Sans that, KG12. What you are doing with the soak, brush, patch...just keep doing it, A LOT.

DeanWinchester
07-05-2014, 09:50 PM
I prefer Montana Extreme 50BMG copper solvent. Be sure you're in a well ventilated area. Good lord that stuff is stout!!!

357maximum
07-05-2014, 09:52 PM
Never had a brass fouled bore so I cannot even begin to help, but your question has inspired another one.....would a super light coating of 45/45/10 or LLA prevent/help prevent your current issue?

btroj
07-05-2014, 10:00 PM
Ok, this is gonna sound weird but I find that nothing gets rid of copper, and most likely brass, fouling than shooting cast. Getting a light bit of leading or antimony wash seems to help strip the copper fouling from the bore when the lead or antimony is scrubbed out.

I bet the lead sticks to the copper far stronger than the copper sticks to the bore.

Sweetpea
07-05-2014, 10:16 PM
Sounds like it couldn't hurt at this point...

Bill in Ky
07-05-2014, 10:40 PM
I agree with all the solvents mentioned above. Maybe try soaking with Kroil, it might get under the brass.

JonB_in_Glencoe
07-05-2014, 11:12 PM
Ok, this is gonna sound weird but I find that nothing gets rid of copper, and most likely brass, fouling than shooting cast. Getting a light bit of leading or antimony wash seems to help strip the copper fouling from the bore when the lead or antimony is scrubbed out.

I bet the lead sticks to the copper far stronger than the copper sticks to the bore.
I'm liking this suggestion the best.

Right after I posted the above, The thought came to me to, slug the bore...maybe a soft Lead slug will scrap out the brass.

Bigslug
07-06-2014, 12:08 AM
Cotton balls wrapped around a .22 brush smeared with JB Bore Paste would be where I'd start.

Silverboolit
07-06-2014, 12:08 AM
Brass is a mix of copper and zinc, IFIRC. You could try a mild acid patch.l Muratic acid on a patch may dissolve the fouling. Follow with water/baking soda rinse to neutralize the acid. Do not overdue it as you may hurt the bore.

Blammer
07-06-2014, 12:11 AM
I'd clean it like you did, then shoot some cast bullets through it at slow velocity, just to get the lead to do the work of cleaning it for you.

It's worth a try.

Digital Dan
07-06-2014, 12:27 AM
Jb bore paste

Static line
07-06-2014, 12:48 AM
I've had pretty good luck with Montana Extreme cooper solvent. As mild as they appear,I have also had some good results with the foam cleaners.

chutestrate
07-06-2014, 09:51 AM
I don't think I agree with shooting lead through the bore to clean it. Lead is softer than brass. When lead builds up shooting more lead doesn't clean it. I would stay safe and use bore paste.

dromia
07-06-2014, 10:02 AM
C2R has to be the best metallic fouling remover I have ever used.

Should shift that brass in no time.

JonB_in_Glencoe
07-06-2014, 10:06 AM
I don't think I agree with shooting lead through the bore to clean it. Lead is softer than brass. When lead builds up shooting more lead doesn't clean it. I would stay safe and use bore paste.
I think that's the premise. Shoot some castboolits, then carefully monitor the bore as the Lead sticks to the brass...and hopefully while cleaning the bore, the brass comes out with the lead fouling because the brass should stick to the Lead more so than the steel barrel.

JonB_in_Glencoe
07-06-2014, 10:23 AM
I thought I'd share the targets from this "Brass fouling" event yesterday.


To begin with, you can see here, my good luck with the first 40 shots, using old ammo, that I loaded in 2002 for another rifle. They shot quite well in this nearly unfired, off the shelf Winchester mod 70. Btw, these were the third batch of rifle ammo I that I had ever loaded, I took almost no notes, so who knows what I did right or wrong?

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/jwordtargetsmod70243_zpsdee74c1b.jpg (http://s640.photobucket.com/user/JonB_in_Glencoe/media/jwordtargetsmod70243_zpsdee74c1b.jpg.html)


Next are the targets that ended my shooting session...from some home swaged bullet ammo I recently loaded (again for another rifle) I got the bullets in a trade with a fellow member here, and I think I was pushing them too fast. I had the chrono out, and it was working when I was shooting a iron sight rifle at the 50 yd bench, but the 100 yd bench was shaded and my chrono wouldn't pick anything up? So I don't know how fast they were ?

Mostly, I was on the paper with the first couple 5 shot groups, but after the first two rounds at the third target, the bullets just disappeared...13 of them :(
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/swagedtargetmod70243_zpsdefbbb94.jpg (http://s640.photobucket.com/user/JonB_in_Glencoe/media/swagedtargetmod70243_zpsdefbbb94.jpg.html)

fryboy
07-06-2014, 10:43 AM
i used to primarily use barnes cr-10 and then switched to sweets , montana extreme's 50 bmg copper killer changed all that .... what ever you do do not give some one a bottle and warn them not to smell it - they'll open the bottle and take a huge whiff everytime , like i was trying reverse psychology er summin' - no i meant it do not inhale this stuff on purpose !!!!!!!!!!!! way worse than smelling salts but ...if you want to smell it and let me watch you make a fool of yourself go ahead ...[sigh] the stuff does just a good of a job on copper as it does in making folks a believer in " do not smell this " lolz

my problem with shooting lead or copper in a bore fouled by the other is that it'll deposit in layers ...guess what ? if you're using a foul out ( or home made version ) it has to come out in ( you guessed it ) layers ( talk about a pita )
i usually start with gumout carb cleaner , this gets rid of the carbon leaving only the problematic fouling then it's merely following the directions , i do use bore paste as a rarity ( see the abrasive comments ) but prefer to finish with flitz followed by a lite coat of oil
kroil and flitz will take moly right out of a barrel ..i never could understand why folks couldnt get it out ( or,conversely,if you're going to keep using moly why you'd want to ???
as for a new or newer barrel ... i'll only shoot 5 shots max before i clean it ( usually less actually at first ) otherwise i wont be smoothing much down but the fouling ( ironing it in actually )
of course now they have CFE223 .... it's even supposed to help clean already coppered up bores ( aint found none around my neck of the woods yet but someday maybe lolz )

w30wcf
07-06-2014, 10:58 AM
Ok, this is gonna sound weird but I find that nothing gets rid of copper, and most likely brass, fouling than shooting cast. Getting a light bit of leading or antimony wash seems to help strip the copper fouling from the bore when the lead or antimony is scrubbed out.

I bet the lead sticks to the copper far stronger than the copper sticks to the bore.

+1
That has worked well for me in the past. Think about it. What was used to join copper pipes together? Why lead tin solder now antimony tin solder. Thus copper will adhere to the cast bullet and be removed from the bore.

I don't know about brass though......

W30wcf

sundog
07-06-2014, 11:06 AM
http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/120x90/primary/784/784639.jpg

Wipe-Out is good stuff.

JonB_in_Glencoe
07-06-2014, 11:24 AM
snip...
as for a new or newer barrel ... i'll only shoot 5 shots max before i clean it ( usually less actually at first ) otherwise i wont be smoothing much down but the fouling ( ironing it in actually )...
Excellent advice, and ya know, that was told to me a month before I went out shooting saturday, when I was discussing this project with someone else...and that was my original plan. But, yesterday was a saturday on a long holiday weekend, so I thought the range might be crowded and didn't want to tie up a bench all day cleaning and shooting...Well a lesson learned ! That's exactly what I should have done. And the range wasn't crowded...they all must have been at the Lake :)
Jon

remy3424
07-06-2014, 11:59 AM
Plus One to try Wipe Out,Patch Out. After my usual prairie dog shoots, I clean with Hoppes #9 or Bore Shine and then DAYS of soaking bores for while at work, patch out after work and leave to soak until turning in for the night, same thing again in the morning. Wipe Out make an accelerator for this product to speed up the process, wish I had it. Once the "blue" is gone from the patching after soaking, I do a quick Bore Paste scrubbing, clean the well with #9 or Bore Shine, oil and tuck the Varmint rigs away til the next trip. Good luck with the nasty bore you are dealing with Jon, let us know what worked best for you.

10x
07-06-2014, 02:23 PM
Regular strength household ammonia will take the brass/ copper fouling out of your bore without damaging the steel.
Fill the bore and let it soak for a few hours then use a stainless steel brush and rinse with hot water,
Fill the bore again and let it soak again - when the ammonia stops turning blue there is no brass or copper left.

When you are finished rinse with very hot water, dry with dry patches, then oil the bore before it rusts. Ammonia takes out all the oil as well and exposes raw metal to the air.

kryogen
07-06-2014, 05:59 PM
I use wipe out with the accelerator. (or patch out).
Works awesome.
Spray, let work overnight, patch... spray, let work overnight, patch... will not harm the bore.

dogmower
07-06-2014, 07:25 PM
FWIW, I had a BADLY lead fouled 375 that I scrubbed and scrubbed with JB bore paste, Kroil, Hoppes no. 9, Carb cleaner, etc. got NOWHERE. Shot Birchwood Casey foaming bore scrubber into the barrel, let it sit for half an hour, then wiped it out with a cotton patch wrapped around a 40 cal brass jag. Lead came out in CHUNKS - you could see bright spots of lead on the patch. Amazing. anyway, I don't know if that'd work with brass fouling, but I do know I tried just about everything else mentioned by the others, and this was the only thing that worked.
Good luck.

Old Caster
07-06-2014, 07:59 PM
I don't think I agree with shooting lead through the bore to clean it. Lead is softer than brass. When lead builds up shooting more lead doesn't clean it. I would stay safe and use bore paste.
This depends on what cast bullet you are shooting. A very soft bullet shot at a reasonable velocity over the top of leading caused by hard lead will most definitely clean the bore, and easily.

btroj
07-06-2014, 09:51 PM
Removing copper by shooting cast has nothing to do to with hardness, it has to do with the higher affinity of copper for the lead alloy than for the bore. Remove the lead and the copper goes with it.
This is more of a chemical operation than physical.

country gent
07-06-2014, 10:03 PM
For all my years in High power compitition for badly fouled bores I used SHooters Choice benchrest mixed 50/50 with kroil. Patch it in or nylon brush and let soak kroil carries shooters choice between vouling and barrel loosenng it at the bond. Always woorked good for me

Mike H
07-07-2014, 06:37 PM
Regular strength household ammonia will take the brass/ copper fouling out of your bore without damaging the steel.
Fill the bore and let it soak for a few hours then use a stainless steel brush and rinse with hot water,
Fill the bore again and let it soak again - when the ammonia stops turning blue there is no brass or copper left.

When you are finished rinse with very hot water, dry with dry patches, then oil the bore before it rusts. Ammonia takes out all the oil as well and exposes raw metal to the air.

I am not sure what stainless steel brushes are for,it certainly is not for cleaning rifle barrels,just think about you are doing.
Mike.

seaboltm
07-07-2014, 07:37 PM
I use janitorial strength ammonia. Stronger than household. Plug the bore and pour it in. Dump every few hours and run a patch. I would not soak overnight in janitorial strength ammonia. Of course you could fill the bore with Brasso, perhaps? It is ammonia based.

10x
07-07-2014, 07:38 PM
I am not sure what stainless steel brushes are for,it certainly is not for cleaning rifle barrels,just think about you are doing.
Mike.

The alternative is to use a Nylon brush.
So long as the stainless steel brush is softer steel than the rifle barrel they clean well.
Ammonia dissolves bronze brushes...

303Guy
07-08-2014, 02:19 AM
Here's a trick I have mentioned numerous times; I use this in my only jaxketed rifle shooter. It has a rust 'textured' bore so I dip the bullet base in a molten mix of candle wax, alox and STP smoke stopper. Once the waxy-lube as I call it has frozen I seat the bullet as normal. This prevents any copper fouling whatsoever. It will surely prevent brass fouling too. The bore remains lubed and does not need cleaning after shooting and accuracy is pretty good.

chutestrate
07-08-2014, 07:43 AM
Ahhh, now I understand. Thank you for the clarification.

JonB_in_Glencoe
07-08-2014, 07:46 AM
there have been a lot of suggestions of store bought copper remover and
a few mentioned the use of household ammonia. One mention of mixing shooters choice with kroil, I'm assuming shooter's choice has ammonia in it?

Now the question:
What about mixing Ed's red 50%-50% with household strength ammonia ?
is there any dangerous risk of mixing chemicals and making something like mustard gas or similar ? (I know it's takes sulfuric acid to make mustard gas, that's just an example of what an uneducated person might end up with when mixing random household chemicals).
FYI, I use acetone and real gum turpentine in my ed's red.
thanks for any advice.
Jon

dale2242
07-08-2014, 08:18 AM
I have shot 1000s of bullets made from 22lr brass through my Ruger stainless 223.
The velocity limit is said to be 3400fps with these brass jacketed bullets but I found it to be less than 3300fps in my rifle.
I keep my velocities around 3100-3150 with no problems.
I am guessing you are pushing the swaged bullets a bit fast.
I clean with Shooters Choice Aqua Clean. Is has served me well.....dale

fryboy
07-08-2014, 05:54 PM
hmmm , i have to admit that i have no idea , i was also under the impression that some cleaners have a higher concentrate of ammonia ( some ...) than household ammonia does , allow me to quote

"About 80% of the ammonia produced by industry is used in agriculture as fertilizer. Ammonia is also used as a refrigerant gas, for purification of water supplies, and in the manufacture of plastics, explosives, textiles, pesticides, dyes and other chemicals. It is found in many household and industrial-strength cleaning solutions. Household ammonia cleaning solutions are manufactured by adding ammonia gas to water and can be between 5 and 10% ammonia. Ammonia solutions for industrial use may be concentrations of 25% or higher and are corrosive."

https://www.health.ny.gov/environmental/emergency/chemical_terrorism/ammonia_tech.htm

main thing is do not mix any kind of ammonia with bleach ( of any shape or form !! ) oh and never ever use it on brass !!

now let me leave a couple other links

"Gun Cleaning Product Tests"

http://www.frfrogspad.com/cleaners.htm

"Homemade Firearm Cleaners & Lubricants"


http://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm



i like the thought of ease of stripping with the electroplating ( aka foul out home made or otherwise ) however i dont currently use them ( but i also wonder how a similar setup would copper plate boolits :P )