powder comparison question

[Battis]

I want to reload .351 ammo for a Winchester 1907 Self Loader (semi-auto). The brass, bullets, and dies are all available. The only load data I've found lists 2400 and 4227 powders, which are unavailable in my area, though I keep looking.
I have H4895, IMR 4064, Reloder 19, Titegroup and Red Dot. Is there a way to cross reference these powders or others that are available to find one that will work safely?

[popper]

4227 is available, try Cabelas. Rx7 might be good. Case size appears to be close to 300BO, which uses lilgun, 4227,Rx7, 1680. 4895 & R19 are way too slow. Yea, 2400 is unobtainium here. Don't know about the pistol powders.

[Battis]

I was curious as to how secondary uses for powder are developed. Ex: someone determined that Red Dot, a shotgun powder, can be used in a .38 and in a Krag 30-40. If the powder wasn't originally designed for those uses, how did they come about? Some brave soul tried it and it worked? Reloder 19 has listed data for a 6.5x55 but not a 7.5x55. Some .351 Winchester shooters use .357 brass - does that mean a pistol powder can be used?
In this powder shortage, I'm looking for options.

[mdi]

I believe the "alternate uses" of powders comes from well informed/knowledgeable/experienced "amateur" reloaders. The knowledge of how powders react under certain conditions and how it affects bullets is used and then some judicious testing (as in the case of shooting lead bullets in rifle cartridges with "shotgun powder").

Jes my opinion and I don't think any of the large powder manufacturers would do any testing/experimenting in this area but rather work on their "dedicated" powders (rifle powders for rifle applications, handgun powders for handgun applications, etc.).

[Calamity Jake]

I want to reload .351 ammo for a Winchester 1907 Self Loader (semi-auto). The brass, bullets, and dies are all available. The only load data I've found lists 2400 and 4227 powders, which are unavailable in my area, though I keep looking.
I have H4895, IMR 4064, Reloder 19, Titegroup and Red Dot. Is there a way to cross reference these powders or others that are available to find one that will work safely?

The 351 case is small having slightly more volume than a 30 carbine case, therefore rifle powders
won't work very good.
It takes a faster burning powder to get good performance. That's one reason that only 2400 and 4227
are listed for this caliber, there are other powders within the same burn rate window that should work
along with many of the faster powders.
Look for loads in other calibers with similar case capacities using your Red Dot powder.

[44man]

All I find are 4227 and 2400 loads with a 180 gr bullet. I see no reason 296 or h110 would not work but need to find a starting load. The other powders are too slow. RD should work.

[Battis]

Today I called a well known powder company and asked if they had any load data for the .351 Winchester. The answer was "No. Not even going back 50 years." I said that a few companies online are selling loaded ammo, so where are they getting their data? He said they have their reputations to protect, so their ammo should be OK.
I did buy some loaded ammo online but I never got an answer as to what it's loaded with, but I do trust the company.

[Battis]

Here's a 1937 reloading book that has old load data. You can download it for free.
Scroll down to Complete Book - PDF File Download, then follow the instructions:
(Right Click on PIC and choose "Save Target As..." to download PDF file

http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=423-1937-Complete-Guide-to-Handloading-(by-Philip-B.-Sharpe)

[44man]

What I have is 180 gr, 19 gr of 2400 and 20 gr of 4227. I don't have a rifle in that caliber, just a book with explanations about the gun.

[jonp]

Jeff Bartlett has some WC820 in stock which can be used with H110 data. This might be the ticket for you.

[Battis]

I'll give him a call. His prices look good, even with the hazmat fee.
Thanks.

[mdi]

Not meant as a hijack, but curious. I have been using WC820 from Bartlett and occasionally search his site for other powders but usually see only powders originally meant for the 50 cal. and 20mm Vulcan. I don't reload either so what are some uses for these sloooow powders?

[44man]

I think all their powders are pull downs from military ammo. My friend Pete has a .50 BMG and gave me a big jug of powder that I found no use for so I gave it back.

[JohnH]

IIRC and I don't have a reference, take with a grain of salt... the 351 Winchester and the 357 Max are similar in case size, the 357 Max being the hotter cartridge of the two. If you have the Winchester Self Loading rifle, I would consider 7 grains of Red Dot a max load. It won't cycle the action, the action operating on the recoil principles (Don't know if it is short or long recoil, the short being defined by barrel unlocking from the breech bolt before the bolt reaches the end of it's travel, long recoil was generally found in Maxims and similar machine gun actions) The action is tuned to the enertia of the total ejecta, (weight of charge and bullet weight with velocity as a factor as well. Powders in the speed range of 1680, 5744, 4198 are going to be at the slow end of the spectrum if 2400/4227 are mid range (that statement assumes a lot!) 1680 is a near perfect powder for the 357 Maximum, too slow for a 357 Magnum. Again, IIRC the 351 pushed 150's at about 1700 fps, a 357 Max would do the best part of 2200, the likely difference being a combination of bore diameter and operating pressure. If you are not afraid of experimenting... Massive doses of caution required here... you need a powder about the speed of 10X to start with and a chronograph. The chronograph is a must. Determine where the base of the bullet is, fill to about 3/4 of the volume left in the case, fire for velocity, doing this from a distance or cheek welded to the stock is your choice. (Yes the learning curve can be exhilarating) When doing something like this, always start with a powder slower than would be required and work from there. If you have access to a Powley Computer, you can calculate a load that will be good for an IMR powder (IMR 4227/4198 the likely suspects here) One can find Powley Computers at gun shows, even ebay, but there is a manual that goes with it which is a must to use the device. The nice thing about the older canister grade IMR powders is that they were single base (nitrocellulose) and they were linear, meaning that "X' increase in charge would give "X" amount of velocity gain. Sounds like a fun project. The Winchester Self Loading's most popular chambering was the 401, it was used by fair numbers of prison systems. It' didn't take on well with the public, the rifle was generally underpowered and because of it's action, proper cycling was very sensitive to load variations which left the guns very limited to the ammunition they would use. Also remember the SAMMI rule, A cartridge can operate a given pressure or a given velocity, but it cannot exceed either. There is much wisdom there. Also remember that the old adage about "Load till you see the primers flattena nd then back off a grain" is likely taking you into 70,000 psi+ range. If you get pressure signs in the brass/primer you can "read", it's too late. A through reading of "Ken Waters Pet Loads" is basic training in this territory. Did I say get a chronograph? Get a chronograph. I hope none of that sounds condescending, certainly not how I mean it. Lots of old guns have been, can be and are brought back to life with careful well researched handloading. Don't get in a hurry, double check everything you do. Also learn how to break the gun down and know where to examine for excessive/rapid wearing, in the end you want the gun to function without it's beating itself to pieces (I'm sure that sound obvious but again I don't mean it to be condescending) It should function without being sluggish nor snappy. Without pressure equipment, or solid data developed on pressure equipment, you only have the gun and brass and chronograph to tell you what is happening. I would definitely chrono the factory rounds before I did any load development...

[JohnH]

Not meant as a hijack, but curious. I have been using WC820 from Bartlett and occasionally search his site for other powders but usually see only powders originally meant for the 50 cal. and 20mm Vulcan. I don't reload either so what are some uses for these sloooow powders? 257 Weatherby, 30-378, the Lazzeroni cartridges 7mm Rem Mag ... cartridges that would be considered overbore or grossly so... http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/03/overbore-cartridges-a-working-definition/ The short of it is this... the greater the case capacity, the slower the powder burn rate needs to be to achieve maximum velocities at maximum pressures. The SAMMI rule, can't exceed velocity, can't exceed pressure, so the best of both worlds is going to be max velocity at or near max pressure. Bullet weight is a contributing factor, generally the heavier the bullet the slower the powder we want. (Slow in this sense is the rate of speed the burning powder reaches it's maximum pressure) The point of overbore cartridges is not to push light bullets really fast, but heavy bullets faster than their more conventional counterparts. Why? To make things deader of course :) Not really, It's all about ballistic co-efficient. The heavier a bullet is for caliber, the higher it's BC will be which means the farther it will hold it's energy. In long range shooting, (1000 yd+) the goal is to remain supersonic, going subsonic a bullet is buffeted by the shockwave and that destroys accuracy. I used a 243 Encore on two prairie dog shoots I went on some 8 years back. I used 55 grains of 860 and Noslers 70 grainer for a whopping velocity of 2700 fps (sounds like a 223 don't it) 3400 fps can be had with IMR 4895. Didn't have enough powder capacity for the 860 powder. My 25-06 barrel with does 2700 with 120 grainers and 60 grains of 860, 3000 is achievable with 4831. Apart form the 50 Browning, I don't think there is a commercial cartridge that is capable of the full potential of 860, 870, 857, 5010 series of powders, the 30-378 prolly comes closest. They do give cast shooters some interesting playing, especially with cartridges like 30-06, 7x57, 8x57 and other cartridges developed by the worlds militaries at the turn of the last century. Accurate Arms #2 manual lists many loads using 8700 for these cartridges. I personally don't shoot stuff like 7 Rem Mag or 257 Weatherby, That stuff hurts too much these days, but if I had one and was into self mutilation, the price of that slow stuff is very right. These days, 10-15 grains of powder and 12-1600 fps is just fine with me. My apologies to the OP for wandering of course here...

[Battis]

Wandering is good. It gives me a lot to think about.
I've been meaning to check out chronographs.
When I get the loaded ammo, I'll fire some and hopefully they'll work the action properly. Then I'll backtrack and pull a bullet apart to see what's inside for powder. Or maybe I'll pull the bullet first.
From what I've read, IMR 4227 seems to work the best.

[JohnH]

From what I've read, IMR 4227 seems to work the best.

That being the case, the 820 at Bartletts is about two shades fast (it is "equivalent" to AA#9), Think of 4895 as medium speed in the 30-06, then 820 is to 4227 as 3031 is to 4895 on the fast side and the 680 (it is equivalent to AA #1680) is to 4227 as 4831 is to 4895 on the slow side. This is not a perfect comparison case volumes and speed range availability being what they are but it is reasonable to give one an idea of "fast to slow". This is also why there are so many warnings about not using burn speed charts to develop data from. Fast to slow changes with case volume. Extreme examples... 38 Special Bullseye is fast, like 2400 in a 30-06. Unique is beginning to be slow side of midrange like 760 in a 30-06, 2400 is slow like 4831 in a 30-06. In a 223 Unique is like Bullseye in the 38 Spl., 4198 on the fast side of midrange and 2015/3031 beginning to be slow side of midrange similar to 760 in the 30-06, 4064/Varget slowest useful in 223 and like 4831 in the 30-06. (again, not exact comparisons, working idea/concept)

In your case, 10x/2015/3031 would be like 860/870 in a 30-06, they'll make pressure but to slow to get maximum velocities nor will they reach maximum pressures. 1680 (680) falls on the fast side of those but would likely still be slower than 4831 is in the 30-06. 4198/5744/1680 will be the slowest useable, but will likely not give more than 85% of maximum possible velocities. If 4227 is the ideal, AA#7 is going to be fastest useable, but in an auto loader will give cycling problems. The slowest end of this spectrum will give cycling problems as well. done now, I talk too much.

[Battis]

The more I read your last post, the more I get out of it, but I have a very non-algebraic brain, so it'll take some time to sink in.
If I can find some 4227, I'll give it a try. 2400 seems to be next in line. It's all about cycling that heavy action.

[C. Latch]

Where did you find the loaded ammo?

[Battis]

Pricey, but it'll get me going. A few other companies sell it, but they charge even more.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/351_WSL_Winchester_Self_Loading_Ammunition_it-978322.aspx?TERM=351

[C. Latch]

Thanks!

I see that they still have component brass, and at decent prices. One of these days I'm going to break down and spend the money to get my dad's .351 running again.

[Battis]

RCBS dies are expensive ($180), Redding dies are around $82.00. Brass is a lot cheaper than what I paid for my .50-70. Bullets are available (Graf - $16 per 100). Lee makes .352 sizing dies for cast bullets. I chambered an empty (fired) .357 case and worked the action and it ejected perfectly - not sure what that means. I've read that some shooters use 38/357 dies. Interesting rifle. I just have to find some IMR 4227.

[Battis]

For the heck of it, I called my gun store and asked if they had gotten any powders in. It's been slim pickings there for quite awhile. Just one, the salesman said. IMR 4227. 25 miles later I had a pound.
Doesn't take much to excite me.

[Battis]

I received 40 loaded .351 bullets from Buffalo Arms. I pulled one to see what was inside. The powder measured approx. 17 grs, which is the load using IMR 4227 or 2400. That is good to know.
The bullets are 180 gr copper coated, but I'll switch to cast when I get some sizing dies.
The recoil is different, but not bad. Very stout. Very loud rifle. The ejected brass flies quite a distance and finding them can be a challenge. I had 2 stovepipes out of 20, one that crushed a case. It'll be accurate when I sight it in (the rear sight is a Lyman 41SL, probably factory installed).
I plan to get Redding dies, if the 357 dies that I have don't work.
It's a great addition to a collection.

[JohnH]

Looking forward to hearing more reports. Glad ya found some powder.

[10gaOkie]

Guess I will tap into this old thread, maybe bringing it back to life.....
During my initial tests, trying diff powders, I found that AA#9 works about the same as 2400 in the .351 with 180gr cast bullets. As good as IMR4227 is, it appears that Lil Gun and 5744 are superior .351 powders. Also 1680 shows promise. Lots of load testing left to do! /Chris

[BCB]

I deleted my recent post—I POSTED WRONG DATA—Sorry about that…

But, for what it might be worth, Lyman made a mold 351319. That might be an option if you wish to shoot cast boolits. Might be difficult to find though. But, if it’s anywhere, it can be found on this site…

A good article in Handloader #300, February 2016. It gives data for 5744, Unique, and 4227. With the data already posted for 2400, you have a fair selections of powder to choose from...

Good-luck…BCB

[10gaOkie]

BCB,
Thanks for the tip on the magazine! I was fortunate to have a good supply of powders, suitable for the .351 SL left over from my IHMSA days. I also tried 680, 296, H110 and H4227. My initial tests have been using a plated 180gr .351 bullet that I got for $16. a hundred. I have a 180gr gas check mold ordered from Tom at Accurate. My next step is to have my receiver drilled and taped for scope mounting. I already have a vintage Bushnell scope and vintage Weaver rings to go on the 07. I discovered the Weaver #17 and #20A bases are the correct ones made for the 07. No doubt this alone will tighten my groups as I dont get along with open sights anymore. I have been using .357mag data as a starting point for my loads since .351 data is scarce. The 07 gets more attention than I am use to at the range. /Chris