38 Short?

[retread]

A friend stopped by the other day with some odds and ends from a house cleaning. Among the misc odds and ends was a box of Remington 38 Shorts. That was on the headstamp. Unfortunately the box had been taped over the info on the box itself and was lost when removing the tape. My research to date only yields 38 Short Colt, but no case dimensions.

Any ideas as to the use. Can they be used in a 38 special? Have a full box. Looks like cast bullets with a black coating on them. Thoughts?

Thanks, Jay

[blpenn66502]

They can be used in a 38 special - case diameter at 0.379 is the same as the 38 special.

[willie_pete]

A lot of people shoot Short Colt ( including me ) in ICORE revolver matches in .38 Special guns. They clear the cylinder quicker; but not for me.

WP

[texassako]

The black coating is probably the lube for the heeled bullet. I have about 100 cases from a lot deal that I have loaded for light plinkers in my Security Six in the past.

[retread]

texassako,

Where are you finding load data for the Short? What bullet weight?

[texassako]

I can't really link to the specific selection because of how their site works, but I get most data on Hodgdon's reloading data site. I have been using up my bucket of Ranchdog 100 gr bullets over 2 gr of Clays mostly since I don't have a .380 pistol anymore. No need for the original heeled bullet unless you are shooting it in a gun chambered in it. You can use a 38/357 sizer, but you need something shorter to expand and crimp. My Lee set came with a .38 S&W expander and .38 ACP seater/crimper. They are actually pretty accurate, but they do leave some carbon in the cylinder since they are so short.

[Bigslug]

Assuming you're running them in a modern .38 Special, I would just use .38 S&W starting charge data and tinker from there - though not interchangeable, they're very similar.

[bedbugbilly]

Genealogy . . . . 38 Colt short was the parent cartridge for the 38 Colt Long which was the parent cartridge for the 38 Special which was the parent cartridge for the 357 Magnum.

Originally, the 38 Colt Short was designed for use in the converted 1851 Colt Navies. Because the Navies had bore size of .360 (they were bored .360 and then rifled - that's why you have to use a .375 ball in a .36 caliber cap and ball revolver). The cartridge was loaded with a "heeled boolit".

The 38 Colt Long was used in the later Colt DA Army which also had a larger bore and utilized a "heeled boolit".

From those, the .38 Special was developed and then later the 357 Mag.

In theory (I say theory as it depends on the age of the revolver, condition, etc.) you can shoot a 38 Colt Short and a 38 Colt Long in a 38 Spl. as the casings and COAL are shorter than the 38 Spl. Of course you can't shoot a 38 Spl in a revolver designed for 38 Colt Long (such as the old Colt DA Army) as the COAL is too long. The 38 Colt Long is the cartridge that was found to be inadequate during the early 1900's in the Philipine conflict as it didn't have the stopping power.

As a side note - Uberti/Pietta are making reproductions of the Richards & Mason conversion of the 1851 Navy, the 1872 Colt Open Top and others. For those chambered in 38, they are designed and stamped for the 38 Colt Long and the 38 Spl. to be used. The bores however, are not the size of the originals. Instead, they are bored and rifled 357 the same as our modern revolvers so you can utilize standard .357/.358 boolits.

With the 38 Colt Short, Long and Special - think of them the same as you would a .22 rimfire - I.E. a 22 Short, Long and Long Rifle.

I am playing around with the 38 Colt Short and Long now, trying to develop loads to use in my New Vaquero and a 1872 Colt Open Top that I hope to get soon. I'll be loading in both Smokeless and Black Powder. Black Powder charges are not a problem as you just use a compressed load. I have not found a whole lot of reloading data for either the 38 Colt Short or Long however. A lot is going to depend on bullet seating depth in regards to the size of the bullet - I.E. deeper depth, less cartridge volume, higher pressure. The 38 Colt Long cartridge case is about 1/10" shorter than the 38 Spl. if I remember correctly. In a pinch, the 38 Colt Long casing can be made by trimming down a 38 Spl casing. I primarily want to play around with the Colt Short & Long because of their historical background.

Starline makes the 38 Colt Short and Long casings.

It's my understanding that there are those that utilize the 38 Colt Short for certain shooting competitions. One thing I've read is that they feel they can reload faster with a speed loader and the shorter cartridge - the cartridge having the qualities for what they are shooting.

As far as I know, Remington still makes the 38 Colt Short. I was able to accumulate about 75 Remingon casings to play with. The 38 Colt Long casings that I snagged are Winchester.

As with any cartridge and handgun - make sure the hand gun is designed for the pressures of the cartridge. I wouldn't be shooting modern Remington 38 Colt Short in an antique revolver that was designed for BP which is just common sense. In a modern 38 though it would be fine. But those things go without saying . . .

As far as loading data . . . there are folks out there who reload the Short but I've posted on it a number of times in regards to loading data and haven't received much of a response. I think Bigslug has the right idea . . . . and start on the low side and work up. I mainly use BE but I want to try some Red Dot in the 38 Colt Shorts and will possibly try some Trail Boss if I can find it.

[willie_pete]

The forums on www.brianenos.com (http://www.brianenos.com) have a fair bit of info on reloading for 38SC.

WP

[Petrol & Powder]

bedbugbilly - thank you, that was well said and informative.

[dondiego]

If those are original rounds they are likely loaded with black powder. Don't forget to clean after you shoot!

[Harter66]

I've been dabbling w/38 S&W (about .1 longer than the short) and have had some luck using 9x19 dies . I did have trouble w/some old Rem/UMC cases that will not take the modern/current SMP primer.

Keep in mind that the cases if of pre-40s vintage may well only be up to the 10-12psi originaly intended for the cartridge . A double charge of Unique will fit easily but it jumps to 9mm NATO class pressures, destructive to even a S&W solid frame short/S&W/38-200 or 38 special, but very pleasent in a 357 pick a make.

[dakotashooter2]

I've been recycling my cracked 38 sp brass by cutting it down to 38 short length. It makes for a nice plinker and rabbit load with a little less bark than the 38 special. I've been tempted to pick up some brass from starline because of the .22 shortage. My grandson may have to shoot the 38 shorts instead of .22.

[bedbugbilly]

dakotashooter2 - just curious as I haven't tried it and checked - when you cut your 38 spl down to 38 Colt Short length - do you notice any difference in the casing wall thickness at the mouth - I.E. same thickness as the 38 Spl or a little thicker? Also, what boolit are you seating? Diameter? Do you notice any difference when seating?

I was lucky enough to come up with some Remington cases in 38 Short but will pick up some Starline when I can find it. I would think they would make great bunny loads as you mention. I stopped shooting 22 completely due to the shortage and now the price. Never thought I could reload 38s and shoot cheaper than 22s but by casting and rolling your own, it's a great alternative!

Thanks!

[Harter66]

I cut a few 357s down to 9x23 diminisions . I had 20 or so nickle WW that mouth split I didn't see any noticable thickening or have seating ,belling or chambering issues. 14 would feed from the magazine of a Marlin 38/357 1894 CB but 16 would fit.

[retread]

Thanks to all for the great info. bedbugbilly, yours was especially informative. Thanks!

[dakotashooter2]

dakotashooter2 - just curious as I haven't tried it and checked - when you cut your 38 spl down to 38 Colt Short length - do you notice any difference in the casing wall thickness at the mouth - I.E. same thickness as the 38 Spl or a little thicker? Also, what boolit are you seating? Diameter? Do you notice any difference when seating?

I was lucky enough to come up with some Remington cases in 38 Short but will pick up some Starline when I can find it. I would think they would make great bunny loads as you mention. I stopped shooting 22 completely due to the shortage and now the price. Never thought I could reload 38s and shoot cheaper than 22s but by casting and rolling your own, it's a great alternative!

Thanks!

Definately thicker and you'll get a bulge when you seat the boolits (sized to .359) but they chamber fine in both my M85 and Blackhawk. Right now the smallest bullet I have is 158 gr but I'm trying to find something around 115-125 gr.

[Bullwolf]

I have an old box of Remington 38 Short Colt a friend gave to me. People often give me older boxes of obsolete cartridges, because they know I find them em interesting.

Some boolit weight numbers.

38 SC (Short Colt) Remington Factory 125 grain LRN.
38 S&W Remington Factory 146 grain LRN.
38 Special 148 grain cast reload WC.
38 Special 158 grain cast reload RN FP.
357 Magnum cast 158 grain cast reload SWC.




- Bullwolf

[bedbugbilly]

dakotashooter2 - thanks for the info. I figured the wall thickness might be a little thicker. I haven't loaded up any of my 38 shorts yet but I thought I'd try the boolits I cast for my 9mm. They are out of a Lee 356-120-TC. I cast out of "range lead" and they drop from my mold right at .358 and in the neighborhood of 122 gr + or -. I've loaded them in 38 spl. and they work well out of my Smiths. T thought I'd start there and see what happens and then try to fid a good RN design.

Bullywolf - great photos! Gives a nice comparison between them all. Thanks for sharing those!

[GoodOlBoy]

My uncle has a box of 38 S&W from waaayyyyy back in the day that came with an old police revolver he got long before I was born. The Box SAYS 38 Short on it. The shells have been measured and remeasured (as have the chambers of the cylinder) and they are most certainly 38 S&W. We always chalked it up to name licensing from back in the day. IE you aren't us so you can't use our name on your box. He also has a single 38 caliber hull that the brass is only 1/4" long that was in the box with the gun. It was originally a loaded round, and he fired it when he got the gun just to see if it would go off. The head stamp only says 38 on it. No other markings.

Who knows....

GoodOlBoy

[Bullwolf]

Most of the factory 38 S&W I have purchased was larger than .38 special. It often will not fit in the cylinder of a 38 special or 357 magnum revolver, unless the cylinder inside specs on your revolver are really on the loose side of things.

(38 S&W is too fat to fit in the cylinder)

Most 38 S&W also uses a .360 or larger boolit.

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd38smithandwesson.jpg

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd38special.jpg

I used quite a bit of factory Remington green and yellow box 38 S&W to get my parent brass, as it could readily be found in stores.

http://www.northwestshootersupply.com/images/products/detail/877063.jpg

That's where my experience with the cartridge originally came from before I started reloading it. Since I had a few 38 S&W Revolvers, I wisely stocked up on the brass so I could reload the cartridge and continue to shoot it.

After being fired once, 38 S&W brass can readily be sized down to fit in 38/357 and even 9mm cylinders.

I had poor luck trimming 38 special down to 38 S&W lengths then shooting and fire forming it. It would often split on me, but it was still a good project for 38 Special cases that already had a neck split.

There are many here on cast boolits who know a LOT more about the 38 S&W cartridge than I do, and can probably explain it better than me.

The 38 S&W and the 38 Short Colt are definitely not the same cartridge.

Visually, 38 Short Colt looks like a .38 S&W but the case dimensions are different. The 38 (short colt) case is the parent to .38 Long Colt and .38 Special. The 38 short colt was originally a heeled bullet cartridge intended for cartridge conversions of the .36 cal cap & ball revolvers from the American Civil War-era.

I don't believe they were ever intended to be interchangeable.

Both cartridges do operate at much lower pressures than modern 38's, if you can fit 38 S&W in the cylinder of a modern 38 special or 357 magnum I see no pressure problem arise from shooting either cartridge. 38 Short Colt will just drop in.

Occasionally Starline makes 38 Short Colt brass available.

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/38-Short-Colt-Brass/ (https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/38-Short-Colt-Brass/)

Pulled this off Starline's page regarding the 38 Short Colt:

Starline Brass > 38 (https://www.starlinebrass.com/order-online/caliber.cfm/caliber/38/)
38 Short Colt Brass (Small Pistol primer)

0.754 - 0.761 O.A.L.

Basically a shortened 38 Special. NOT a substitute for 38 S&W. Can be fired in most guns chambered for .38 Special or .357 Magnum.

https://www.starlinebrass.com/images/cases/_cache/100_-1_38_Short_Colt.png






- Bullwolf

[GoodOlBoy]

Good info Bullwolf, thanks. I too tried cutting down and fire forming culled 38 special brass for a 38 S&W and never had ANY luck doing it and eventually gave up on it. I never had a 38 S&W anyway, I was always trying to work up loads for family members who DID own them so eventually I just broke down and told them that they needed to find the correct brass. :p

GoodOlBoy