ITAR & threat to casters

[buletdoc]

On 5/19/14 I posted about ATF paying me a call & saying I needed to register with state dept. for because of ITAR. Well I placed half dozen phone calls trying to find out what I needed to do. Finally directed to state dept. webb site and to get In touch with something called DDTC Response Team, (www.pmddtc.state.gov/response_team (http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/response_team)). Lot of good that did! They didn't know exactly what I was talking about. One person went so far as to say if casting for myself I would still need to register, no selling to anybody else. Finally after all this was told to send e-mail to DDTCResponseTeam@state.gov (DDTCResponseTeam@state.gov) for better answer. Fat chance, e-mail went undeliveried for two weeks and then postmaster stopped trying. Maybe their computers crashed. HA HA.

[BK7saum]

Someone posted a thread a few weeks back that ITAR was not required because they were not selling boolitd out of the country. They had received a letter to that effect from the BATFE or State Department

Well I can't find it. Don't think I dreamed it but the generous consensus is that it is required.

[Bullshop]

And how many people there that cant answer a simple question are drawing a pay check. Talk about welfare!

[David2011]

Someone posted a thread a few weeks back that ITAR was not required because they were not selling boolitd out of the country. They had received a letter to that effect from the BATFE or State Department

I missed that post. If anyone can find it I would love to have a reference.

David

[Bullshop]

Go to the DOD site. They state that manufacture of defense articles requires the itar tax weather exporting or not.
They break down the term defense articles to include ammunition then they break down the term ammunition to include any part of a cartridge, powder, primer, case, and bullet, as all separately being ammunition.
The only break they gave was for bullets for antique arms did not require itar but did require the manufacturers license if selling.

[David2011]

That was my understanding, Bullshop. I have read the regulations and they expressly mention cast bullets and that the license is required even if the maker doesn't export. More Government overreach IMO. I don't believe the Department of State can legitimately regulate unless an item is exported. I will bend the ear of my U.S. Representative until, well, I don't intend to stop until cast boolits for domestic consumption are exempted or I meet the Maker.

David

[FLHTC]

If they want me to be concerned with an ITAR tax they are SOL and the only thing i can say about their threat of a tax against my freedom is BFD.

[knobster]

This is why I only trade very small ingots to friends. Not bullets, just very small (200ish grains) ingots.

[Bullshop]

They also state on the site that the penalty for violation is very severe. It is $500,000. and 10 years imprisonment.

[FLHTC]

They also state on the site that the penalty for violation is very severe. It is $500,000. and 10 years imprisonment.

They rely on fear because they don't know their *** from a hole in the ground when it comes to enforcement

[Bullshop]

I agree but don't want to be THE ONE they come down on to make an example of.

[TXGunNut]

Does seem to be either overreach or incompetent folks answering questions. Both scenarios are well within the realm of possibility. I've spent a fair amount of time & money defending myself from frivolous charges, no desire to do that on a regular basis. If I were to sell boolits I'd get an answer I could depend on and proceed within the regulations because they often carry the weight of law.

[beanie]

I had a visit from our batf to inspect our class 06 ammo mfg. and yes any part of ammo is coverd by the class 06. They in formed us that we needed a ITAR permit and to pay the lic. cost. We called everyone we could those that did not know about it. We then contacted the NRA and they put us in contact with one of their att. and all he does is ITAR laws, he said to fight it.
Beanie's Inc.

[Bullshop]

Fight it in what way?

[dakotashooter2]

The NRA probably told him to fight it so they can get a test case to take it to the supreme court.Can't fight it in court untill someone is charged with a violation.

[FLHTC]

I agree but don't want to be THE ONE they come down on to make an example of.

they are hoping 200,000,000 more think like you

[Bullshop]

I agree.

[dkf]

They want to make it a big headache so you get frustrated, afraid of the possible penalties and stop. Scary boolits and deadly lead ya know.

[Bullshop]

So am I the only one afraid of the possible penalties?

[Centaur 1]

I've worked for many years in the aerospace industry and received annual training on ITAR. I can fully understand our government not wanting my knowledge of rocket engines and launch vehicles getting passed on to unfriendly foreign nations. This is just insane, we're talking about cast bullets here. People have been melting lead over campfires and casting lead bullets for what, about 500 years now. When I was first hired I thought it was a big joke when they told me that common sense and logic was to be left at the gate when entering the base. It didn't take long to realize they weren't joking, and this is a perfect example.

[smokesahoy]

Are cast fishing weights covered? Might be time to sell your own fishing weights that the end user needs to drill for a loop...

[shooterbob]

I called the DOJ after atf said I needed to register. DOJ said it wasn't required for ammo without a quantity large enough for military presence. I also contacted a mtg in dallas and he said no to registering as well. Casting I'm not sure of. I have a link I will post from atf about itar and it says import/export throughout the whole PDF.
The guy from DOJ was almost admitting that they didn't have a clue at atf.
The atf inspector told me they have been pushing it for 2 yrs. But he didn't actually know if it was required...just told to.state it. They don't even know if its required.

[dkf]

I called the DOJ after atf said I needed to register. DOJ said it wasn't required for ammo without a quantity large enough for military presence. I also contacted a mtg in dallas and he said no to regestering as well. Casting I'm not sure of.

I would get that in writing if I were you.

[shooterbob]

One thing to think about also is the fact that there is no clear cut law regarding itar for anything more than import/export. Atf laws are so defined and clear that we have no trouble interpreting them. Makes you think about itar which is clear import/export and its very clear about that. I will post the link tomorrow from itar and atf.

[Tatume]

One thing to think about also is the fact that there is no clear cut law regarding itar for anything more than import/export. Atf laws are so defined and clear that we have no trouble interpreting them. Makes you think about itar which is clear import/export and its very clear about that. I will post the link tomorrow from itar and atf.

(1) The components, parts, accessories and attachments controlled in this category include, but are not limited to cartridge cases, powder bags (or other propellant charges), bullets, jackets, cores, shells (excluding shotgun shells), projectiles ...

http://pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/documents/official_itar/ITAR_Part_121.pdf

"Manufacturers who do not engage in exporting must nevertheless register."

http://pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/documents/official_itar/ITAR_Part_122.pdf

[Hamish]

One thing to think about also is the fact that there is no clear cut law regarding itar for anything more than import/export. Atf laws are so defined and clear that we have no trouble interpreting them. Makes you think about itar which is clear import/export and its very clear about that. I will post the link tomorrow from itar and atf.

I seem to remember a shoe string being ruled an automatic weapon,,,,,,.:veryconfu

[shooterbob]

Ok I called Henry, my friendly ATF inspector and was asking some more questions regarding ITAR and mfg ammo. He admitted that no one seems to know the truth on ITAR. They are decding to err on the side of caution. He told me several things that I wasnt aware of regarding selling ammo. If you sell reloads, you need no licence at all he said. Reloads and hand loading equip arent covered under ITAR. And arent required to have a class 6 to sell them. Class 6 license is for mfg ammo. Now here is where it gets confusing. They dont have the info regarding amounts of ammo required to actually be a military presence or ITAR registration. He did agree that if using a hand loading tool, it should be exempt and that should be because of amounts loaded weren't comparable to machine loading. Cast boolits again, he said "should" be exempt if hand loading in small batches due to the hand tools clause under article one. He seemed to agree that amounts of the boolits and ammo and export/import were the true targets for ITAR. That being said, it was not in writing, but was about an hour trying to clear up some of the confusion. I hope to further clarify this about the little guys doing home loads and boolits.

[nicholst55]

On 5/19/14 I posted about ATF paying me a call & saying I needed to register with state dept. for because of ITAR. Well I placed half dozen phone calls trying to find out what I needed to do. Finally directed to state dept. webb site and to get In touch with something called DDTC Response Team, (www.pmddtc.state.gov/response_team (http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/response_team)). Lot of good that did! They didn't know exactly what I was talking about. One person went so far as to say if casting for myself I would still need to register, no selling to anybody else. Finally after all this was told to send e-mail to DDTCResponseTeam@state.gov for better answer. Fat chance, e-mail went undeliveried for two weeks and then postmaster stopped trying. Maybe their computers crashed. HA HA.

Write a nice letter to your Congresscritter and request his/her assistance in getting a definitive answer, in writing. State will jump all over themselves responding to a Congressional inquiry, trust me.