PDA

View Full Version : Range trip with the 30 XCB



MBTcustom
06-29-2014, 10:06 PM
Well, I decided it's been way to long since I spent a day at the range loading and shooting, so I called sgt.mike and asked if he wanted to go to the range if it wasn't freakin raining like it has been for the last 2 months LOL!
Anyway, I had in mind to go and fireform some brass, and dip my big toe in XCB land.
I had sized and neck turned 43 cartridges for this purpose. All were Greek HXP 68.
The original plan was to turn the necks to .337 (chamber measures .3377) but they didn't clean up there, so I compromised and turned them to .336.
The necks were expanded and flared with a special tool of my own design that works exactly like a Sinclair tool.
Powder was IMR4895 trickled. Powder charges were from 28 grains to 31 grains in .5 grain increments, 5 cartridges at a time.
Primers were Federal 210 LR.

The boolit chosen was the 30 SIL, for reasons clearly seen in my thread about "boolit deformation at launch".
The alloy was 50-50 CO/SO WW water dropped, followed by visual sorting, weight sorting, then another visual sort.
Lube used was White Label 2500+ (chosen for it's wet shooting characteristics)
Gas checks were Hornady 30 caliber seated with a Star push through sizer.

The rifle is a 1909 Argentine sporter I built from spare parts laying around the shop.
109264
I robbed the action from a bubba sporter I scored last year.
I got the barrel from an early 60's vintage remington 700 I built for a client (once set back, the barrel length is 21 3/8").
The stock is a very pretty one from another 1909 Argentine that I just couldn't bring myself to drill and tap or modify, because once it was out of the stock and away from it's barrel it is the epitome of perfection.
The scope came with the rifle, and is a Simmons 3-9 that is stuck on 6. (I wanted to put on something better, but sadly all the Leupolds are spoken for)
The barrel was reamed with a custom reamer and like all the XCB rifles, it is set at minimum headspace, and was reamed perfectly straight and concentric (hand on the Bible).
To top it all off, the rifle has a Timney trigger set just under 3lb.

First seven shots were fired at 25 yards to set Zero (<<<<<<<sorry, have to capitalize out of respect. Pet peeve. Don't ask LOL!)
The next five were 28.5 grains, shot at 100 yards, and were quite scattered. I can only assume that lube was being worked down the perfectly clean and fresh bore, thus accounting for the large group. (shrug?)
109265

29 grains did better still:
109266
29.5 opened:
109267
30 closed:
109268
30.5:
109269
31.0:
109270
31.5:
109271
32.0 I realized I was getting close to something that has been talked about a lot here, so I switched to 10 shot groups:
109272
I jumped 1 grain at this point and managed to squeeze off 8 shots and then the local range Nazi told everybody to pack up our toys and go the heck home. Couldn't take the last two shots in this group.
109273
It was a fun day. Can't really say I learned anything earthshaking, but I had a good time pulling the trigger and it's always a pleasure to shoot elbow to elbow with sgt.mike. He gets to hang out with the presidents 100, so I tend to lick my darn pencil and take notes when he's behind a rifle. He had the forsight to remember to bring a tripod for his chronograph (I thought about it long and hard as I was shoving all my junk into the truck and decided that a tripod was optional equipment today) and he let me take a shot over it. 32grains of 4895 clocked 1902fps (that's 138,960 RPM BTW. Just an observation.)
I saw sgt.mike chasing quite a few ants with his pencil while we were shooting, and he was there longer than I was with his cornucopia of shiny, primed brass, and his gramma cart full of goodies. I swear I'm gonna steal a wal-mart shopping cart just to one up him. LOL!


(PS: you see that shot in the top photo that is way over to the right? That is the only shot on these groups that I would call a flier. I believe the rest are in the group.

35 shooter
06-29-2014, 10:18 PM
Nice start...been waiting for this one. I'll be watching this for sure!

357maximum
06-29-2014, 10:36 PM
I have seen far worse "first session" trips.

Won't be long and you will be bugholing groups into bean cans at 300 yards :smile:

MBTcustom
06-29-2014, 10:54 PM
Well, it's not the best cast boolit groups I've ever shot, but for being the first time out, and all those shots except the two ten shot groups were fireforming brass, I was real pleased. I need to finish putting it through it's paces with this powder, then try a few more. Then I plan to monkey with lube.
The seating die and the neck expanding die are locked in place. Those are the final variables I will mess with, but I recon the current seating depth to be pretty darn close as is.
I wish I had more brass of a single lot. This HXP is good stuff, but I've only been able to scrape together 43 identical pieces.
I wish I could have put a good quality barrel on this rifle, but the reality is I just can't justify the cost. Not when there are tools to buy that save me money.
Oh well, the good XCB rifles are going to other members. I'm just playing with the leftovers. It's all good as long as it's fun.

Larry Gibson
06-29-2014, 11:24 PM
Tim

That is a very good start. Cases are fire formed and you've an idea what 4895 will do. Next time if you stick with the 4895 a Dacron filler should help. Sounds and looks like a decent build on the put together rifle. Be interesting to see how the rifle performs with that bullet as you progress. Good work, glad you and Mike got to enjoy the day at the range. Wish I could have joined you.

Larry Gibson

MBTcustom
06-29-2014, 11:36 PM
Yeah, me too Larry. I think you and the good sgt. would get along quite well.

I've got to get a neck sizing die. I can tell that FL sizer is moving some metal.

I'm just bummed. I just barely got done with the preliminary stuff and was getting ready to start experimenting when they pulled the plug on the range. Grrrrrrrr.
It's OK. I think I need to bed that rifle anyway. Recoil felt muddy.
But ooooooohhhhhhh that action strips those cartridges like it was made for it. Wait a minute...............LOL!
I loved running it. I just wiped the bolt down to shut it. Smooth as Tennessee whisky. I've said it before and I'll say it again: The best part about a Mauser is that we get to own such a fine piece of machinery for less than $2000 a piece.

MBTcustom
06-29-2014, 11:50 PM
Tim I really did like the Comb you modified on the M1A1 (M14).

Yeah, that worked really really well to get me on the EOTech. I'm going to write that up in gunsmithing.

357maximum
06-30-2014, 05:01 AM
More than one person contributing to a given project is "A GOOD THING" ......I would not have made it 10% as far as I have on this journey without good friends that are eager to help another nut out.

leadman
06-30-2014, 05:27 AM
Haven't been following the development of this but did do a search and read some of the posts. Seems like the 30 XCB will end up very close dimensionally to the 7.7X58 Arisaka, other than the boolit diameter. Is this correct?
I have been playing with 3 Arisaka type99s and they are suprisingly accurate.
What has been acheived so far with group sizes and velocity?

MBTcustom
06-30-2014, 07:12 AM
Haven't been following the development of this but did do a search and read some of the posts. Seems like the 30 XCB will end up very close dimensionally to the 7.7X58 Arisaka, other than the boolit diameter. Is this correct?
I have been playing with 3 Arisaka type99s and they are suprisingly accurate.
What has been acheived so far with group sizes and velocity?

I have no idea. What you see above is more real data on the XCB than has been posted anywhere else.

swheeler
06-30-2014, 10:00 AM
Tim thanks for posting data, I've seen worse on second and third test with new cartridge/rifle;) by me no less. I hope we'll get to see data from the rifle you are about to finish for Btroj, hope? Not much news on the first 30xcb you built.

Larry Gibson
06-30-2014, 11:07 AM
When you rebarrel the ought six (721) I'll get you to do the comb on the stock, course that may be in wings for a bit. Even though she looks like 50 miles of bad GA back roads condesned to 1 inch she still does do well even now when I hold hard and believe in her.

That XCB is extremely interesting once the materials show up we need to do that build on my old mauser at your shop. I think that one is a winner I know we discussed 1-12 (but the nagging voice in my head says to twist her special 1-12.5 to 1-12.75")..
Ohhh yeah I have the LC in a coffee can we discussed I'll bug you later with the years on the headstamp and do the weighing empty and H2O, so you can concentrate on the Gun Rack there at the shop.

Mike

If you're building it for cast bullets go 14" twist minimum and 26+ long. You won't be sorry.

Larry Gibson

Piedmont
06-30-2014, 02:05 PM
Tim, I just want to point something out to you and everybody else. When you said "29 grains did better and 29.5 grains opened up" and showed your two five-shot groups, well it looks like that happened, but you can't conclude that. A single five shot group proves almost nothing. If you were doing multiple ten shot groups of each load (the more the better) and then averaged them we might be starting to get somewhere. The result of every load will be a bell curve. Where in that bell curve was your snapshot five round group? Where in the bell curve was your next snapshot? Do you see what I mean?

Someone that took statistics could probably explain this better than me but from the little I know we conclude way to much from these small sample sizes.

The guys that show a three shot group and expect everyone to impressed are clueless. Those that are impressed are just as clueless.

robroy
06-30-2014, 02:39 PM
Piedmont:Yup you got it right. That's why he switched to the 10 shot groups at the end of his session. Tim, I've learned that if I can't call it a flyer before looking then it's in the group. Learned that from a bench rester that told me after he worked up a load for a new chambeer he'd put 25 in the same group and that was what the gun was good for.

Larry Gibson
06-30-2014, 02:50 PM
I have discussed 5 vs 10 shot groups with Tim and he is well aware of the difference. This test was just to fire form the cases and get an idea of where it's going with 4895 and that particular bullet. Mostly perhaps mostly because he had cabin fever working on everyone else's and just wanted to shoot his own:guntootsmiley:. I think he's going to switch to 10 shot groups shortly and get serious.

Larry Gibson

MBTcustom
06-30-2014, 03:24 PM
I dont know what the bell you guys are talking about.
LOL!

Hey, if you notice, my last two groups were shot with fireformed brass and were supposed to be ten shot groups. I saw no reason to get too wrapped around the axle with virgin brass, but I also didn't want to just throw lead and powder away. Might as well shoot as long as I'm shooting ya know?
I was just making a passing comment about what happened, because (perhaps coincidentally) every large group was shot with a cold barrel after the the Range Nazi woke up and remembered to tell us we could shoot. I thought about not posting these groups at all, because they are inconclusive, but I decided that with this rifle, I'm posting my groups weather they mean something or not and I will continue to do so.

I have to wonder though. If the rifle did this well with unfireformed brass and no bedding, what will it do with neck sized brass and a bedded action? Only the targets will tell.
Pictures and recorded data are the only thing that means anything. Close only counts for horseshoes and handgrenades.
What I think I see from all this is that the rifle is capable of 2MOA. Considering it was built from leftovers, that's not too shabby.

dtknowles
06-30-2014, 10:55 PM
I dont know what the bell you guys are talking about.
LOL!

Hey, if you notice, my last two groups were shot with fireformed brass and were supposed to be ten shot groups. I saw no reason to get too wrapped around the axle with virgin brass, but I also didn't want to just throw lead and powder away. Might as well shoot as long as I'm shooting ya know?
I was just making a passing comment about what happened, because (perhaps coincidentally) every large group was shot with a cold barrel after the the Range Nazi woke up and remembered to tell us we could shoot. I thought about not posting these groups at all, because they are inconclusive, but I decided that with this rifle, I'm posting my groups weather they mean something or not and I will continue to do so.

I have to wonder though. If the rifle did this well with unfireformed brass and no bedding, what will it do with neck sized brass and a bedded action? Only the targets will tell.
Pictures and recorded data are the only thing that means anything. Close only counts for horseshoes and handgrenades.
What I think I see from all this is that the rifle is capable of 2MOA. Considering it was built from leftovers, that's not too shabby.

In another more recent thread I mentioned I had not seen many range reports lately and you replied you had not had much to report but this is good stuff you should have pointed me to it. Anyway thanks for put the pics and data up. What is the 30 SIL, weight, shape? Did you consider running a load ladder to find the sweet spot instead of shooting groups of each load? I have not tried it but I have been considering it.

Tim

MBTcustom
07-06-2014, 08:05 PM
I went back out today with the express intention of learning some starting points with some common powders I want to try with this cartridge. I'm pretty much set in my mind, that I will never cut a barrel this short again (didn't have much choice in the matter this time). When you consider that for the same charge, I could have been getting as much as another 300FPS from a longer barrel, it really illustrates how harsh a 21 incher is on the boolits. It's actually rather depressing, but at least this is a start point for when I get the money for a blank of my own.

Anyways, the powders that I took out with me are 4895, 3031, Leverevolution, and Unique.

First 4895
32.5 grains gave:
1980
1903
1917
1910
1951
(pause for range Nazi's)
2000
1962
1964
1974
1989
Group was almost 3 MOA

Next Leverevolution
36.5 grains gave:
2073
2054
2089
2088
2101
group was about 2.5MOA

33.5 grains gave
1943
1937
(Pause for range Nazi's)
1978
1905
1957
Group measured 2.5 MOA

Next IMR3031
28.5 grains gave:
1887
1860
1870
1877
X
X
X
1846
1876
Groups were 2.5 MOA

1885
1947
(then I guess I quit writing for some reason known only to the gods. I'm blaming the Range Nazi's on this because they are available and deserve it)

Next Unique
12.5 grains gave:
1608
(Pause for range Nazi's)
1581
1575
1576
1555
1552
1580
1575
1556
1581
Group measured 3MOA, but that was caused by two fliers that went high left of the group. Had it not been for those two, the group would have been 1.5MOA

Now, I am not proud of my groups here, but in my defense, I was having a really bad day and nothing was going right. (Hey I told you my group sizes, there is no need to go into the reason I was an hour late to the range. I got slightly overheated out there and dang near killed a huge-mongus turtle on the way out, and I did kill a red Cardinal on the way there also (hit it with the truck).
I got there frazzled and unnerved and I knew I wasn't going to shoot for beans, but I also knew that the chronograph doesn't have bad days, and I packed extra batteries and managed not to shoot the stupid thing.
Maybe this will help all those who are getting XCB rifles built to have a point of reference, especially with the Leverevolution powder which is not even listed on Quickload's database (on my version that is.)
I looked at the data on the side of the bottle, threw a charge as a guestimate, winked at the 1909 Argentine and pulled the trigger. First load popped out at 2450FPS so I whittled it on back some.
Hope this is not too boring for you fellers. More to come........

Larry Gibson
07-06-2014, 08:56 PM
Good info, especially on the LeveRevolution powder. The more solid data we collect (good, bad or indifferent) the better off we are as we proceed.

Larry Gibson

MBTcustom
07-06-2014, 09:12 PM
Well, I have built a very good rifle for another member in this caliber, the results of which would be much more enlightening, but since he took his rifle, tipped his hat and left, I'm trying to fill in the blanks as best I can. It's a starting point.
This is just a hashed together rifle from spare parts I have laying around here, and since I have quickload, and I am curious, I figured I could at least give starting information for people who care to read it.
I really wonder about these groups. I was off my game in a terrible way today but I got to thinking about Remington's pressure point they put in their stocks. Seems like I remember cutting one out once and the rifle didn't shoot nearly as well being "free floated". I'm kicking myself for not having the presence of mind to fold up some business cards and add pressure to the bottom of the barrel. I wonder if that would have helped.

Sweetpea
07-06-2014, 09:23 PM
As far as the pressure point goes, maybe, maybe not, YOU will have to see.

All I know is, if my MDL 700 243Win shot any better with a pressure point than it does without, everybody in the benchrest circles would know my name, and I'd have sponsors...

At least, when I'm having a good day...[smilie=l: