What makes them do this.

[dtknowles]

I shot this 10 shot group because when I was shooting 5 shot groups and was getting flyers that seem to go to the same place. I checked the scope mount, it is solid. The scope is a fairly new Nikon. I ran out of range time so I did not try some jacketed loads or swap the scope. Anything else I should consider? The point of aim was at the edge of the black at 3 o'clock because there was a breeze from the right. Nice little 5 shot group around the point of aim, one flyer down at 6 but the puzzler is the group up at the top of the target. I could not guess where a shot was going to go one would go to the top then a couple over at 3 then back to the top and then back to 3. These were shot at 100 yards with my Ruger #3 in .22 Hornet, 3 gr. of Green Dot, CCI Small Pistol primers, NOE 45 gr. plain base flat point cast from 50/50 COWW/Range Scrap with a little tin added, hand lubed with 50/50 Beeswax/Alox loaded as cast at 0.226-0.227 in neck sized Rem. brass.


109112

Tim

[500MAG]

Could be many things. Load differential, lube, etc. I'm not all that precise with each bullet I produce, but for hunting ammo, I would weigh each boolit and make sure the base of each boolit is even.

[Tatume]

A good test would be to thoroughly clean the rifle, then shoot a series of targets with ammo loaded with Sierra bullets. If they shoot well, then the problem may be with your cast bullets.

[GoodOlBoy]

My 2 cents. My guess, and it's just that a guess, would be that that particular rifle is not fond of that particular load and is just being "grumpy" about sending them down range. I would be willing to be that your FPS spread would stun you on the loads. I don't know what the min/max load with that particular cartridge and powder combination is but My suggestion would be if you are at close to max, back off a half grain and see what you get. If you are close to minimum load try bumping up a half grain and again seeing what you get. Always stay within' powder manufacturers recommended load spreads.

I had this VERY issue with a pair of 30-30 winchesters I was loading for. One was a Marlin 336 that loved the cast bullet/powder/primer load I was feeding it. The other was a Ted Williams model 100 that HATED that load. I would get two or three different groups out of ten test rounds. I tried bumping up a half grain and it got worse. I dropped it a half grain at a time and it got better with the best being 1 & 1/2 grains under the load the marlin liked. Both loads were still in the safe range for that combination. The Marlin doesn't play well with Ted's load and vice versa. It is what it is. Good luck to you.

GoodOlBoy

[GhostHawk]

What size bore, what size bullets, exactly what load?

Off hand I'd guess bullet is undersized, or for some unknown reason is not stabilizing the bullets correctly.

I agree with loading a few Jword rounds for baseline. If your sizing, try loading a few test rounds that are not sized, etc. I think you have to be a bit methodical, tackle one variable at a time till you find the culprit.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Lightweight rifles with 2-piece rifle stocks can also be very fussy about how they are held on the bags and your grip on the rifle. Small changes in the position of the fore end and grip tension can move impact point. You might also check your cartridge rim thickness for consistency. Varying rim thickness can change ignition, causing impact point differences.

[dtknowles]

Thanks for all the replies, I will try to address everyone in just one post. Top to bottom

I don't really want to weigh each bullet but maybe I must, others have suggested it as well. I actually weighed the charges for this box of ammo and switched to small pistol primers to improve the accuracy but I was getting groups the good or better with dropped charges and small rifle primers.

I could run the load ladder again using small pistol primers but I never found a load that the gun preferred everywhere from 2.5 to 3.5 gr. was all about the same. I did not run the loads with measured charges over the Chrono but the ones using dropped charges did have some pretty big extreme spreads like 80 fps. But this group had measured powder charges.

The bore is 0.224 and these bullet were loaded as cast at 0.226 to 0.227. The full load details are in the original post. The other loads with this bullet I sized the bullet to 0.225. There is no sign that they are keyholing.

It did not do this with jacketed bullets and shoots them into about 1.25 to 1.5 inches at 100 yards. That was with a different scope somehow I broke the reticle in the old scope. I need to shoot some jacketed loads with the new scope to check that.

I glass bedded the forend to the hanger and floated the barrel. My bench-rest technique is pretty good, I can shoot 0.25 inch and smaller groups with my bench-rest rifle but I understand this is a different beast it will be something I will stress more in the future. I did see that the parallax on this scope is not adjustable and is set for something other than 100 yards so I was careful about my head position. I was shooting like a bench-rest rifle with the forend on the front bag on an adjustable rest and my left hand squeezing the rear bag. All the brass was same headstamp and lot, if I have to worry about rim thickness I will just....I don't know but I am not measuring them.

It occurred to me after I posted this that maybe this load is powder position sensitive and I need to position the powder for each shot or change to a different powder.

Tim

[dtknowles]

all screws tight on stock? not rubbing etc?

Seem to be but I am going to take the forend off and check the bedding.

Tim

[wv109323]

I agree with Mostlyleverguns. It could be rim thickness or the bullet being concentric with the bore. With the Hornet's thin brass you could be distorting the case while seating the bullet.
Or it could be the rifle. I had a No. 1 25-06 in a heavy barrel. Of five shots three may be within a inch the fourth 2" out and the fifth two feet away from the other 4. I never figured that one out. I traded the rifle.

[.22-10-45]

Going out on a limb here...How old are you and how is your eyesight? The reason I ask, is lately, I too have had two very tight groups..in different places..and shooting cast in the Hornet as well! This hasn't happened much in past, & I have been shooting this particular Hornet for nearly 20 years! Just wondering if the old peepers are playing tricks?

[Eutectic]

Tim,

Lots of good advice so far. I have a #3 Hornet.

Two things I will add for the moment. The first, unless it is lighting on your photo, is possible lube purging..... Note the upper holes appear to have a darker ring around the hole.... This is classic performance for lube purging (the darker more fouled holes into another point of impact.) Was the low left impact the first shot?

When I read your load my first thought was position sensitive with the light load (and Green Dot) If you are not doing it, try elevating the gun barrel after loading up to 90° and then ease it back down to the bags. If it's a position sensitive load this should improve groups.

You 50/50 Beeswax Alox is prone for lube purge flyers for me on light loads. I would try some of Mike's (357Maximum) 6,6,6, 1 which has really helped cold starts and purge flyers for me especially with light loads. It's simple to make it's 6 parts Beeswax, 6 parts paraffin (plan ol' Gulf wax from the store) 6 parts Vaseline and 1 part grated Ivory soap. These are all by weight. This is a GOOD lube and is basically the first and oldest NRA formula with some Ivory soap added.

Eutectic

[dtknowles]

Tim,

Lots of good advice so far. I have a #3 Hornet.

Two things I will add for the moment. The first, unless it is lighting on your photo, is possible lube purging..... Note the upper holes appear to have a darker ring around the hole.... This is classic performance for lube purging (the darker more fouled holes into another point of impact.) Was the low left impact the first shot?

When I read your load my first thought was position sensitive with the light load (and Green Dot) If you are not doing it, try elevating the gun barrel after loading up to 90° and then ease it back down to the bags. If it's a position sensitive load this should improve groups.

You 50/50 Beeswax Alox is prone for lube purge flyers for me on light loads. I would try some of Mike's (357Maximum) 6,6,6, 1 which has really helped cold starts and purge flyers for me especially with light loads. It's simple to make it's 6 parts Beeswax, 6 parts paraffin (plan ol' Gulf wax from the store) 6 parts Vaseline and 1 part grated Ivory soap. These are all by weight. This is a GOOD lube and is basically the first and oldest NRA formula with some Ivory soap added.

Eutectic

The low shot was not the first shot, I blame it on a bad bullet, I did not weigh them. I am going to try positioning the powder. I am going to get some MML+ivory soap maybe I can get some, 6,6,6,1 too if it is different. I really don't want to start making lube. I really don't want to mess around too much with the rifle either it is a nice gun, I got rid of the barrel band and reshaped the stock and rebeded it. I would like a nice metal butt plate that fits right instead of the stupid plastic one that came on it. It shoots Hornady 35 gr. V-Max bullets with 13 gr. of Lil Gun at over 3000 fps with 1.25 MOA accuracy. I could load all my brass with that and be very happy. Even with these silly groups it will still bust a clay at 100 yards every time and that is what I do most with it, sadly not many shooters at my range can do that. I can hit the steel plates offhand every time (ok sometimes I miss but it is rare and not the ammo's fault) with this ammo as well something almost nobody even tries. The this ammo I am talking about is not these rounds but my 3.5 gr loads with dropped charges, small rifle primers and sized to 0.225 but they have the same two group problem. A couple weeks back I posted a thread where I was shooting that ammo and got a group without the flyer. I posted a picture, actually that was when the website was having trouble with pictures and another member got the picture up for me. It was a nice symmetrical group around an inch and a half with no two shots touching. I had just cleaned the bore then shot a single fowling shot and then the group. I have other guns around waiting their turn and this Hornet is getting all the range time. I have a couple boxes of 450 BPE I loaded for my double rifle and I am not even sure they are right for its regulation. Good chance that gun is going to shoot two groups too :razz:

Tim

[RickinTN]

I have a Sako rifle that I dearly love. It has a very small bedding issue which I've never attempted to correct. With jacketed bullets and a load it likes out of 6 rounds it will shoot two distinct groups of about a half-inch but they are about 1 inch apart. I use the rifle for hunting and seldom shoot groups with it and it is hunting accurate. I know there are some "tricks" with Ruger number one and threes to help with their forearm bedding. How does the rifles shoot with jacketed bullets?
Good Luck,
Rick

[dtknowles]

I have a Sako rifle that I dearly love. It has a very small bedding issue which I've never attempted to correct. With jacketed bullets and a load it likes out of 6 rounds it will shoot two distinct groups of about a half-inch but they are about 1 inch apart. I use the rifle for hunting and seldom shoot groups with it and it is hunting accurate. I know there are some "tricks" with Ruger number one and threes to help with their forearm bedding. How does the rifles shoot with jacketed bullets?
Good Luck,
Rick

It shoots Hornady 35 gr. V-Max bullets with 13 gr. of Lil Gun at over 3000 fps with 1.25 MOA accuracy. I bedded it based on a set of instructions I got from a book or magazine over 20 years ago. I am going to check the bedding.

Tim

[Eutectic]

I have a couple boxes of 450 BPE I loaded for my double rifle and I am not even sure they are right for its regulation. Good chance that gun is going to shoot two groups too :razz:

Tim

You're jumping from the frying pan into the fire Tim! Regulating a double rifle is (well can be) an experimenter's dream (nightmare?).
Both my .22 Hornet and my .223 Ruger #3's shot their best groups with the forend band still on! My slender little cute forend not as well. I have always fought #1's and 3's because of that 'spring board' mainspring hanger! I'll modify one to test if I ever get caught up!

.22-10-45 made a good point about older shooters I'll second. Developing cataracts can cause double grouping! One just has to have one more thing to 'align' it seems! This can happen with both iron and optics. Cast and jacketed as well!

The most accurate cast boolit load (consistent 3/4" or better @100yds) in my #3 Hornet was the Lyman 225415 cast 1 in 30 and gaschecked with an annealed check then sized to .2185" and paper patched! A case full of Rel7 on board. They are an experiment in dexterity for thick old strong fingers though!!!!! I am thinking of teaching my grand daughters to do it and then pay them for it like WRA and UMC did in the old PP days!

Picture attached.

Eutectic
109188

[44man]

Alloy will do the fliers. You have no idea what range scrap is.

[dtknowles]

You're jumping from the frying pan into the fire Tim! Regulating a double rifle is (well can be) an experimenter's dream (nightmare?).
Both my .22 Hornet and my .223 Ruger #3's shot their best groups with the forend band still on! My slender little cute forend not as well. I have always fought #1's and 3's because of that 'spring board' mainspring hanger! I'll modify one to test if I ever get caught up!

.22-10-45 made a good point about older shooters I'll second. Developing cataracts can cause double grouping! One just has to have one more thing to 'align' it seems! This can happen with both iron and optics. Cast and jacketed as well!

The most accurate cast boolit load (consistent 3/4" or better @100yds) in my #3 Hornet was the Lyman 225415 cast 1 in 30 and gaschecked with an annealed check then sized to .2185" and paper patched! A case full of Rel7 on board. They are an experiment in dexterity for thick old strong fingers though!!!!! I am thinking of teaching my grand daughters to do it and then pay them for it like WRA and UMC did in the old PP days!

Picture attached.

Eutectic
109188

Gas Check and paper patch. I would not have to use the gas check but I would need a new sizer die.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Alloy will do the fliers. You have no idea what range scrap is.

I am not going to suspect the alloy just yet. The BHN is around 12 and they all used the same pot of alloy. The alloy casts without a high reject rate.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Saturday I shot the rest of the cast bullet loads that I had loaded. I also shot a box of jacketed bullet loads to check and see if the gun might be a problem. I am shooting 10 shot groups for better science but that means bigger groups than I might have reported in the past. The jacketed bullet loads are not the best I have loaded but are good enough for check the gun. They use some .223" dia. bullets I got for a good price but I have a .224" barrel. It does not appear the gun is the problem the jacketed bullet group have some vertical stringing but all the bullets are in one group. Only got one group had to spend a couple shots after cast bullet loads and cleaning to foul the bore and check the zero and wind, dursh wind. I think it was an issue shooting the cast bullet loads later. Sorry about the recycled target I got out of the trash. I am sometimes too cheap for my own good. I will be using fresh targets in the future.


When I shot the cast bullet groups I was raising the muzzle to settle the powder charge just in case the load is position sensitive. I was getting pretty excited with the group because the first 4 shots went into about an inch then this group fell apart. I don't have any wind flags and did not have any references for the wind because the berm as wet and the grass was short. I think I had a change of wind direction and an increase in strength but I can't be sure and I did not try to compensate or wait for the condition to go back but I did take my time with the remaining shots and it only got worse. I shot another group earlier before I cleaned the bore and shot the jacketed bullet group and I was not impressed it was smaller at around 3" and did not show a tendency to form two groups. The load may be position sensitive. I am also casting some bullets with new alloy without range scrap that has some copper. I water drop some bullets and air cool some so I have a bunch of empty brass and a lot of small pistol primers, will weigh charges and weight sort bullets, also new MML+ lube. A lot more testing to be done.

Tim

[UBER7MM]

Tim,

I wonder if your gun is sensitive to fouling. I had a hunting rifle a few years ago that shot the first shot high and a bit left of center. The next 2 or 4 were where on my expect point of aim. The local gun shop clerk suggested moving the point of aim to the first shot (the most important shot of the day) or foul the barrel before the big hunt.

Those other guns will just have to wait until you solve the 22 Hornet mystery....

[Harter66]

There's this Savage 110 06'........knowing this is apples and oranges.

It taught me a hard lesson about matching brass and scaling loads. It will open up from 5 under a quarter (25 cent coin) to 1 1/2 inches in just .3 gr of podwer charge change and at .5gr over is over 3''. As for brass I cussed that no grouping flyer chucking fatherless son for months w/1 lot of 1 headstamp........I finally gave up and in a fit emptied the remainder of the lot,some 80 rnds of the original 125 LC42 ........ 6 fliers and 3 very distinct 3'' groups appeared I went home and found that the cases were of as much as 3 gr of water different in case capacity. More than that the scale lotted cases came to the exact count of each of the 3 groups and 6 aberations. The Hornet I would expect to be just as fussy but in smaller increments if you have a fussy rifle.

[dtknowles]

Tim,

I wonder if your gun is sensitive to fouling. I had a hunting rifle a few years ago that shot the first shot high and a bit left of center. The next 2 or 4 were where on my expect point of aim. The local gun shop clerk suggested moving the point of aim to the first shot (the most important shot of the day) or foul the barrel before the big hunt.

Those other guns will just have to wait until you solve the 22 Hornet mystery....

I do shoot fouling shots before I shoot groups. I shot a cast bullet group I bragged about in a different thread that I shot just after I cleaned and fouled the bore but it was only a 5 shot group. I am changing lubes to see if that might help and it will maybe affect fouling sensitivity.

Because I have to wait for the bullets I just cast to age before I can load more cast bullets in the Hornet.

If I go shooting next weekend I will probably take the Double Rifle and maybe a new to me Savage/Anschutz bolt .22 RF if it arrives this week. I just bought a brick of Wolf Target Match and a box of Remington/Eley Match.

Tim

Tim

[dtknowles]

There's this Savage 110 06'........knowing this is apples and oranges.

It taught me a hard lesson about matching brass and scaling loads. It will open up from 5 under a quarter (25 cent coin) to 1 1/2 inches in just .3 gr of podwer charge change and at .5gr over is over 3''. As for brass I cussed that no grouping flyer chucking fatherless son for months w/1 lot of 1 headstamp........I finally gave up and in a fit emptied the remainder of the lot,some 80 rnds of the original 125 LC42 ........ 6 fliers and 3 very distinct 3'' groups appeared I went home and found that the cases were of as much as 3 gr of water different in case capacity. More than that the scale lotted cases came to the exact count of each of the 3 groups and 6 aberations. The Hornet I would expect to be just as fussy but in smaller increments if you have a fussy rifle.

This started out as an idea to get some inexpensive and easy to load rounds for my .22 Hornet to replace .22 LR. It is sort of getting out of control if I have to start weighing my brass and bullets. I had not been sorting my brass but might if I get in the mood. I might run a load ladder to see if I need to consider a different powder charge, I have only tried 3 and 3.5 grains.

Tim

[DeanWinchester]

I'm fighting the same BS right now. I called Veral Smith and sent him my pound cast. I'm starting all over and as was mentioned, alloy can give you fits. I cast from WW's cause I work in a tire shop. BUT, I don't care how careful you separate, you STILL don't KNOW what's in there. I just picked up some Lyman #2 from rotometals. We know for a fact whats in that. I'm going to leave the WW's to pistols and shotguns for a while and see what changes.

[Pilgrim]

I've been loading and shooting for a few years (50+) and my experience is bad loads and/or bad barrels and/or bad bedding usually sprays bullets around but seldom if ever shows two distinct groups. Something is changing with the rifle or scope kinda like a pendulum. My first guess would be to swap out the scope. Choose a known good scope, even if you have to borrow one. Don't worry about scope power or anything else like that but DO NOT change power settings if you are using a variable scope. The current scope may have loose internals and is moving from one position to another. If that doesn't provide any answers, then I'd look to a bedding problem. One of the things to look out for is the forend contact with the receiver and the buttstock contact with the receiver. If they don't have even contact, it can cause different vibrations and potentially two groups. One thing to try is shooting the rifle without the forend on by resting the forend hanger on a sand bag or some such and seeing if that provides any useful info. If the double group goes away, you know the problem is with the forend. Anyway...keep at it. Ruger #1/#3 can be bitches to sort out. Given the age of your rifle, it may simply be a bad barrel. Back in the days that #3 was built, Ruger was turning out an awful bunch of marginal to bad barrels. FWIW...Pilgrim

[runfiverun]

I'd swap primers first.

[waksupi]

I would also look at my bench technique.

[Whiterabbit]

two distinct groups.... I looked for it in the post but didn't see it. This isnt a 2-cavity mold, is it?

Actually doesnt matter. I'm still targeting one bad cavity (or even possibly multiples, though very likely just one) depending on how many cav your mold is. Bad being relative of course, but frankly the upper group isn't doing as well as the lower group anyways, so maybe bad indeed. like a scratch in the base at one or two cavities?

Or even casting method if its a big mold. Large temperature differential from one end ot the other, causing "bevel bases" at one side and sharp corners at the other.

That would be my target. And easily verifiable, too. Casting session, cast up 50 to 100 using ONE cavity of the mold and go back to the range. 2x groups, my idea is bunk. Data is king :)

[44man]

I did have that problem with my Marlin 30-30 with some powders. I DID have to raise the gun between shots. That is the easiest thing to try.

[dtknowles]

I shot the upper group using jacketed bullets to see if the gun or scope was causing my problem. While it is not a really small group, it is all 10 shots in a group so I don't think the scope is a problem. This gun has shot much smaller 5 shot groups but in the interest of better science I have started shooting 10 shot groups. If the bedding is an issue it is not a real big issue for the jacketed bullets.

The mould is a three cavity and I did not sort the bullets except visually rejected bad looking bullets, bad bases are cause for rejection. I have cast a new lot of bullets and I will weight sort them. I will continue to raise the muzzle to position the powder.

I have looked at my bench technique. I use the same front rest that I use with my 6mm PPC Bench Gun except I change the front bag to match the shape of the forend and I use a higher rear bag because of the under lever to cycle the action. I need to start using wind flags. These low velocity loads and low BC bullets are affected more by wind. The trigger is pretty nice, I don't think it is a problem. I have been working on my bench technique and am sure it could get better.

I did try a few weeks ago with Small Pistol primers and I am switching to them for future loads.

I am going to hold off on fillers if I can get it worked out without them.

Tim

[CWME]

First thing that came to mind was different position of powder in the cases and or primers giving inconsistant ignition. Didn't have time to read through all the posts but that would be the two things I would look at.