Making moulds work & casting the perfect bullet

[Blackwater]

Fellows, there's a real mindtrust of experience and knowledge here, and I know this may have been covered here before, probably in a whole myriad of threads and posts, but for the benefit of us newbies, would you mind relating some of the "secrets" you've discovered as you've progressed along the path toward making moulds work, and in casting "the perfect bullet?"

I just read about one fellow diddling with his proceedures until he learned what one of the 6-cav. Lee moulds to work, and I've got a mould (Saeco #745) that's difficult to cast good 530 gr. bullets with. I'm not talking about BruceB's speed casting article or the Lee-mentiong article by (???) in the archives, or anything like that, but just some problems you've run into with moulds, and what you did to get an initially problematic mould to sing for you.

It seems that once you get into really wanting to make "the perfect bullet," you begin running into problems, and maybe some of your experiences and the techniques you used to overcome the problems you've run into would help some of us "newbies," even some like me who've cast for a very long time, but always cast for volume, and not quality.

I have a buddy who has a Lyman #457125 mould that just won't perform for him at all, no matter the alloy, alloy temp, etc., and he recently got a Saeco 4-cav. mould from me for .38 WC's that he called to let me know was a marvel of perfection. He's no newbie, but doesn't have a clue what to do, and neither do I. He's threatened to send it to me to see if it'll frustrate me as it has him. Great friend, huh? ;^) I suspect poor venting????

When we get a mould that won't pour a good bullet, what do you check first, second, etc.? And I've pretty well decided to try opening up the sprue hole in that Saeco #745 of mine. With lead/tin alloys, it'll throw pretty good bullets, but WW's give 70% base voids. I'm thinking that a larger sprue hole MAY help it cast WW's, and maybe (???) reduce the wt. variation with lead/tin alloy.

I've combined the two things - making moulds work AND casting "perfect" bullets - because I sense the two are heavily intertwined. Like I said, I've always cast for volume, and have only recently gotten serious about casting better bullets. Thanks for any tips you can relate. I'm going to save them and print them out for when I run into problems in the future, and I suspect many more will do likewise.

[David R]

I can only tell you what I do.

New mold. Clean it with a toothbrush and some Wellworth Shop solv. Its an alcohol based cleaner. Set the sprue plate so it almost falls under its own weight. IF there are any burrs or suspect spots, I go over it lightly with a fine sharpening stone. ONLY on the flats. Then I start pouring a few. They are going to be wrinkled and not fill out. After I drop about 10 pours, I clean again with toothbrush and shop solv (same as Castle Shop Kleen). I pour a few more to keep the mold warm and smoke it with a butane lighter turned way up. I tilt the mold so the smoke gets into all the parts of the cavity.

This has worked for me with EVERY mold I have bought or got used including my lee molds. Nothing more. I do touch boolit lube to the sprue screw on all molds and the pins on a LEE 6 cavity.

Good Clean wheelweight alloy at around 750 to 800 dagrees F. 9 lbs wheel weights and one part 50/50 solder.

I have had no mold give me trouble once I started this routine.

If the boolits won't fill out, add more tin and or turn the heat up.

Keep it simple and it will be easier.

David

[44man]

If you are getting poor fill out with no wrinkles it usually is the hole in the ladle spout being partially plugged or too small. The same for the bottom pour hole. You have to keep these real clean.
If you put an ingot mould under the bottom pour spout and open it up, you should get a strong stream.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

The biggest problem with getting perfect cast bullets is quite simply maintaining a constant pool of lead at a constant temperature.

Take a 10lb pot and you are making say 400, 500 or 600gn boolits, 20-30 pours any you have used 20% of your melt, so now you have the same amount of heat going into 80% of the original and you get frosting.

Melt some more lead and while you are waiting the mould goes cold so you waste 10-12 pours to get it just right and after another 20 pours you start frosting again.

Use a 6 cavity and a 20lb pot and you are still in trouble after 20 pours you've used 20% of your melt and the melt is going to get hotter and you are back to the same.

My own casting setup melts 70lb of lead, so using 10% (about 200 boolits) has very little effect on the temperature constant as I have a 10lb feeder also melting on the side. I now replentish the main pot with moulten lead, flux the mixture and continue within a minute or so. 2-3 quick pours to bring the mould back up to heat and continue making perfect boolits.

I usually cast with 3 single cavity moulds for 4-6 hours producing around 100 boolits per hour with very few rejects.

[44man]

Bad ass, good point!
I cast with a ladle and just empty the pot in a session so it doesn't effect me. I have to constantly clean the spout though. A little slag will start to make bad boolits quick. I tap the ladle rod on my slag can, then on the edge of my vise to knock out the slag, wipe the nose on a rag and keep going. I also drilled it out a little.

[NVcurmudgeon]

If you are getting poor fill out with no wrinkles it usually is the hole in the ladle spout being partially plugged or too small. The same for the bottom pour hole. You have to keep these real clean.
If you put an ingot mould under the bottom pour spout and open it up, you should get a strong stream.


A couple of additional points regarding partially clogged ladle spouts: If your spout is often clogged, either you are fluxing with Marvelux, or you are not fluxing and skimming often enough or well enough. Also, a selection of Allen wrenches on the casting bench make perfect ladle spout dross reamers.

[David R]

Hmm. A bottom pour with a thermostat keeps the lead a constant temp.

A wet towel in a dish allows you to keep the mold a constant temp.

SOO, I fill my pot to the top, pour until its empty. It takes 1/2 hour and I end up with 300 (2cavity) to 550 (6 cylinder) boolits all cast at the same lead temp and mold temp. Verry few rejects.

YMMV
David

[44man]

NV, I flux with wax after every 20 boolits. I can't say what gets in the spout is slag. I think it is just clean lead that builds a little to slow the pour. I never see crud in the hole. I know when I rap it on the vise, only lead spatters come out. The lead sticks in the hole just like it does when it lines the inside of the ladle or the bottom of the pot. I never allow slag to run into the ladle. I skim it aside before I dip.
I applied mold prep and it works for a while but doesn't last long enough on a ladle. The same thing happens with the bottom pour spout and slag doesn't get down there.
Cast iron sort of gets tinned and each flow of lead will add to it a little.

[kenjuudo]

I find it takes a couple of sessions for a mold to settle in, or maybe it just takes me that long to figure out what it needs as far as temp, stream size and distance from the spout on my bottom pour. Once it all does come together I make a note of the variables on paper and the next time out see if it is repeatable, if it is and all is well the info is permanently tattooed on the blocks with an engraver.

I try to minimize the variables by makeing as large a batch of an alloy as I possibly can and maintaining a constant level in my bottom pour, fed from a premelt pot.

[JohnH]

All this is good info for sure. The only thing I can add is quit foolin' around and cast. When I first started casting, I'd look at each and every bullet that came out of the mold tryin' to decid if it was any good or not. Quit That!!!!! Cast young man Cast! There's plenty of time later to look for bad bullets and sort the batch out, but first ya gotta make a batch to sort. The more consistant I am with my routine of pouring, letting cool, opening, closing, pouring (ad infintum) The smaller the ingots I add the less the temp fluctuates, even though I add them more often. But I do that as I'm waiting that few moments between pouring and opening. The more consistant your rythme, the better your bullets.

Speed in casting is not nessicarily your friend. While casting can be done quickly, it is not a matter of how fast nor how many, but how consistant. A two cavity mold will easily make 100 or so bullets an hour at a relaxed paced. How fast and how many come not by how quick you can move but by elimination of wasted motion first. Develop a good consistant rythme, and you'll eliminate any waste motion naturally.

What is a perfect bullet? Is it one of perfect color? If so, avoid antimony alloys like wheel weights, use simple lead tin alloys instead, or antimony alloys with high tin percentages, like linotype. But that stuff is expensive. Antimony adds a grayness to the metal, that some may not like, it is an asthetic thing, has nothing to do with the quality of the bullet. Just like frosting. Frosting is heat related. I've always found it difficult to run a mold where it does not frost at all, especially with WW. With WW it is generally desired to run the mold hot enough that the frositng is even over the entire bullet. You may find such a bullet on the small size by .001" or so, but you'll also find the bullets from such a batch to be very even in both weight and size, a lot closer to perfect as a shootable bullet goes.

Evey alloy has it's own casting traits. For me, 20:1 casts more smoothly and is easier to make good bullets with than any other alloy I have used, but it's expensive. Linotype casts like a sweet dream too, but again is expensive. WW with 2% tin (by weight) added is about as good an alloy as one can get these days for general shooting, if you are shooting pistol bullets at 1000 fps or less 50/50 WW and lead will do fine. But shoose one alloy and stay with it for as long as it takes to learn how it casts, prolly at least 6000 bullets to begin with, then swith to comething different and it will be noticable to you. These days I can tell by the colr of the bullet as it drops from the mold if it is straight WW or has some tin added. Not an exaggeration. The frost has a different grain to it and the bullet color is duller.

I always preheat my molds, aluminum or iron. I let 'em sit on the melt while the pot is coming up to temp, and leave it there till just before the melt wont stick to it. It's a little tricky, too hot and you get a big mess, but the molds won't be too cool. Preheating took a lot of headache out of casting for me. There are arguements against this, but I've never had any troub;e, but then I'm cautous to not let teh mold get over heated. I sure wouldn't hold it near or over a gas flame to preheat. The melt coming up to temp is just right for this.

Sorry if I got too long guys.

[David R]

JohnH,

Something It took me a while to get used to. I started quenching my rifle boolits. I never get a look at them at all. They drop from the mold into a bucket of water with a towel over it and a slit in the towel. Every now and then I drop some on the bench to make sure the frosting is even and consistant.

Speedcasting is the greatest thing since the bottom pour pot. I can only stand for 1/2 hour before my back says "I'm tired", so I can get many boolits out of that 1/2 hour. They come out more consistant than ever, the bases are all FLAT and the color of the boolits is consistant. I have NO lead smearing on the top of the blocks or bottom of the sprue plate. I do spend time preparing, I make sure the pot is FULL, fluxed and the mold is preheated on top of the pot. I have to throw out the first 10 pours give or take because when quenching the boolits I want them to all be the same temp when they hit the water and make that cool star wars sound.

Speedcasting does not work with pure linotype. Something about the zero slush time. It takes what seems forever for the sprue to cool enough to hit the wet towel. I could use 2 molds and produce the same amount of boolits, maybe more.

It works for me!

[RugerFan]

Is there a consensus on what size drill bit you would use to enlarge a bottom pour spout to get the optimum results. I have a Lee Production Pot.

[Jumptrap]

Is there a consensus on what size drill bit you would use to enlarge a bottom pour spout to get the optimum results. I have a Lee Production Pot.

A half incher should work fine. Try it and if that doesn't work out, get a RCBS melter and that should cure the trouble.

Alright, now you and everybody else is saying Jump, you're a smartass. Yeah..you're right. But I had not one, but two of those leaky ******** and the permanent cure was to find them a new home and get something that works. NO, a RCBS pot ain't cheap....but it's the last one you'll buy. Cheap stuff ain't good and Good stuff ain't cheap....remember that. I also don't have bottomless pockets or born with a silver spoon in my mouth. So, don't assume I have money to burn. I was a working stiff all my life and now I am on a pension and not a big one either. But I wonder how you guys find enjoyment screwing around with bunsen burners, coleman stoves, junk store iron pots and a bunch of other **** that looks like it was cobbled together by some tribesman from the Khyber Pass.

Buy good equipment to start with and be done with it. I learned this the hard way and wasted good money throwing it after poor products.

Caveat Emptor.

[waksupi]

Rugerfan, I'd try emptying the pot, and cleaning things up, without drilling. Take the valve loose, and chuck it in a hand drill. Put some valve lapping compound on it, and lap the seat with it. Clean things up occasionally, to see if things look well polished. Once they are, reassemble, and give 'er a go. I believe I have seen more than one reference over the years, that drilling has a great tendancy to ruin the crucible, requiring a new replacement.

"But I wonder how you guys find enjoyment screwing around with bunsen burners, coleman stoves, junk store iron pots and a bunch of other **** that looks like it was cobbled together by some tribesman from the Khyber Pass."

Hell, Jumptrap, I make the Kyber Pass folks look hi-tech. I wouldn't know what to do, if i ever had theproper tool for what I'm doing. That being said, I am poor, so can't afford to buy cheap crap. What I buy, needs to last.

[RugerFan]

Waksabi,
Sounds like a plan. What grit compound do you recommend?

Jumptrap.,
I agree with you 100%. Buy the good stuff the first time and it will save you big headaches along the way. I am guilty of using "Kyber Pass" technology, but over the years I have been slowly up grading my setup. The problem is that as you noticed, the price jump from Lee to RCBS is quite steep. The RCBS is on my want list (which is long), but it will just have to wait. Once my kids are out of college, more toys will find their way into my workshop. I see that many of you prefer to use a ladle. I'll probably give that a whirl too.

[waksupi]

I just used plain old valve grinding compound, as that was what was on hand.

[JohnH]

JohnH,

Something It took me a while to get used to. I started quenching my rifle boolits. I never get a look at them at all. They drop from the mold into a bucket of water with a towel over it and a slit in the towel. Every now and then I drop some on the bench to make sure the frosting is even and consistant.

Speedcasting is the greatest thing since the bottom pour pot. I can only stand for 1/2 hour before my back says "I'm tired", so I can get many boolits out of that half hour.

I use the slit towel too, helps a lot. And yeah, I drop some on the table as well, perhaps it is just a need on my part to see what is happening, nice to know others have the need too :) I use the speed casting method from time to time myself. I hope it was understood that I didn't mean not to use Bruces methods. Far from it, they work well. I was just trying to point out that having down a good rythme and being consistant with ones casting methods and alloys goes a long way to making good bullets. Certainly further than what I would have thought once upon a time. I'm certain that early in my casting efforts I quit on a couple molds that would have cast just fine if I wasn't so quick to decide that something was amiss with them when it was most likely me and more than likely inconsistant methods and alloy. I'm sure I ruined one mold by over cleaning it. Out of experience, we tend to give our molds a lot attention, but everything else we do at the casting bench affects the final product as well. It was a lesson I learned the hard way.

For me it's my knees, knuckles and wrist that give up, not nessicarily in that order. After my first experience with the Lee 6 banger, I'm completely sold. I can make in an hour all I can to shoot in a month.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I've had to really stop & totally empty my Lyman bottom pore pot a few times.
1) totally empty pot.
2) useing welders gloves turn it upside down while still hot & tap out a whole bunch of crap.
3) when cool, remove sprue plug, wire brush interior. Drill w/ wire wheel for sides, drill w/ cone wheel for bottom. lot of rustlike powder crap comes out.
4) find drillbit that just fits sprue hole & run it in & out by hand. Doesn't seem to remove any steel/iron but cleans the hole.
5) steel wool 0000 the very tip of sprue plug.
Worked for me! Good luck!

[David R]

I emptied my RCBS pot once and threw some boolit lube in it with it still hot. I ran it out the bottom and stoked it up with lead again. Been working fine since. This is the ONLY time I have had to clean the pot. Been trough a LOT of lead too.

David

[44man]

Some great answers, I hope I didn't add some confusion though. Opening the hole in the ladle is fine, but don't open the hole in the bottom pour spout. Just clean it out and maybe lap it a little if it won't stop leaking.
I have the Lee pot and it does not leak unless I bump the rod on top. I never use it so it stays seated and sealed. I did not want the bottom pour when I bought it but Midsouth was out of the other pots.
I have 3 pots and the worst was the Lyman. I have had to clean and adjust the thermostat 20 times. It always leaked so I plugged the bottom pour. I have had no trouble at all with the Lee pots.
I can't afford the RCBS being on a fixed income.
As you can tell, I am a confirmed ladle man. I could never get perfect boolits from the bottom pour with all of my moulds and fooling around with each took more time then just spending the time casting.

[9.3X62AL]

What a great thread--I sure wish this resource had been around when I got started ~25 years ago.

About all I can add to this info--and it only applies to the bottom-pour pots--is that in addition to temperature of alloy and mold blocks, flow rate of alloy can influence results as well. I noted early on with the ladle that I got a LOT better "keeper percentage" than with the Lee bottom pour pots. The more you can make a bottom pour pot act like a ladle, the better your keeper rate will be. In other words, sometimes an adjustment of flow rate can make a cranky mold start acting right. Where this REALLY made a difference was in the RCBS 243-95 mold......I slowed flow rate down a bit, and got 90% keepers or better after everything got up to running temperature. This held true with Lyman #257420, too. I sure wish that all my molds would cast as nicely as the old Ideal #257312 (1-holer) I got recently. Not a vent line on the block face, either.

[Willbird]

For Multiple cavity molds when they are being cranky I have found that direction of fill can make a big differance, IE front to back or back to front. Finding the way it likes can allow you some legroom to fine tune other parts of the equation that are also hindering the process. When the same mold is running smooth on all cylinders the direction of fill does not seem to matter as much.

Also some folks just may never have the knack to make a device purr.

Bullet casters are generally obsessive compulsive and anal retentive too, with a huge helping of packrat. That means we end up with a whole bunch of crap, but the turds are always perfectly lined up from smallest to largest, or vicey versa hehehehehe

Bill

[JohnH]

Bullet casters are generally obsessive compulsive and anal retentive too, with a huge helping of packrat. That means we end up with a whole bunch of crap, but the turds are always perfectly lined up from smallest to largest, or vicey versa hehehehehe

Bill

Hehehehehe, Now Bill, Don't tell all our secrets...... The younger guys hanging out here might not be able to handle the full truth of their character yet. Ya have to let it reveal itself kinda slow over time till its so ingrained there ain't no escaping it. ;)

[Bret4207]

I found when I went to a stainless steel pot my dross went way down. Also, despite Jumps prefrences, I'm happy with the 12 or 16 cup stainless pot and either the Coleman or the hot plate. The pot holds at least 20 or 25 lbs of lead and I have no problem maintaining temp. Of course I'm a dipper man and consider bottom pours tools of satan, so take that with a grain of saltpeter. I also tend to run at least 750 degrees if not more with WW+ tin. I cast pretty much as fast as I can and have found frosty boolits to be a prefrence over shiny ones in many cases. Some moulds need the dipper in contact with the sprue hole, most benifit from a gap of maybe 1-1 1/2" during the pour. My theory is the falling lead has more velocity to force itself into the nooks and crannys in the mould. Any balky moulds I've had worked when I turned the heat up and cast faster. Some work better with the cavity smoked, but don't bother with most of the mould prep solutions. They don't seem to work. Some bigger moulds, those long 240 grain 358's for instance, need the 1 lb Rowell ladle and a long steady pour over the sprue plate till things get toasty hot. Generally a hot clean mould will cast well for me. But there's a lot of moulds that are just cranky.