question about hardness

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I just cured my first round of cast bullets and have a question about hardness. My 45-70 bullets which are 350 gr. were cast with a 50/50 mixture of COWW/Pure lead and water quenched right from the mold.A day after I quenched them the BHN read 14 from my Cabin Tree,today,two weeks later they read 22 BHN and a few at 23 BHN. A few questions here: Is the 22 BHN to hard for a hunting bullet? Also,how does time effect the hardness of the cast bullets from here on out? Will they tend to stay put,get harder or softer over time? Would I be better off air cooling my bullets for hunting and or target?I would imagine that even cast bullets have a shelf life like anything else but being very new at this,I don't know what is fact yet.

[Tatume]

Bullets at 22 BHN are too hard to expand, but expansion is not necessary in a 45-70 bullet.
Over time your bullets will soften, but they should be good for a year.
Air cooling is sufficient, and air cooled bullets will expand some. In my tests, expansion of air cooled bullets impacting at 1200 - 1400 fps was slight but significant "riveting." Water cooled bullets showed no expansion whatsoever. I expect the difference would not affect performance, as the effect on game would be the same with either.

Take care, Tom

[tazman]

Back in the late 70's I owned a 458 Winchester magnum. I cast a 540gr solid for it out of wheelweights water quenched. I tested it against a 500gr jacketed soft point. The testing medium was a vertical dry brown clay bank. I took a shovel with me as I expected to dig some to find the bullets.
The soft nose went in about 2 and 1/2 feet, perfectly expanded. The cast solid went in approximately 4 and 1/2 feet and didn't expand at all. It just drilled a big hole straight in. This boolit had a large flat point on it. I believe it was a Lyman 462560. This boolit was going nearly 1800 fps when it left the barrel.
If that clay bank couldn't make a 45 cal water quenched boolit expand at that speed, I don't think it would expand on something like a deer.
Softer alloy or air cooled is a different deal and should work somewhat better.

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I just came in from doing a little casting and am trying just ww and air colling.I checked the BHN on a bullet and it read 10 from my Cabin tree.I'll recheck it in a few days,a week or more and see where it is at then.

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Back in the late 70's I owned a 458 Winchester magnum. I cast a 540gr solid for it out of wheelweights water quenched. I tested it against a 500gr jacketed soft point. The testing medium was a vertical dry brown clay bank. I took a shovel with me as I expected to dig some to find the bullets.
The soft nose went in about 2 and 1/2 feet, perfectly expanded. The cast solid went in approximately 4 and 1/2 feet and didn't expand at all. It just drilled a big hole straight in. This boolit had a large flat point on it. I believe it was a Lyman 462560. This boolit was going nearly 1800 fps when it left the barrel.
If that clay bank couldn't make a 45 cal water quenched boolit expand at that speed, I don't think it would expand on something like a deer.
Softer alloy or air cooled is a different deal and should work somewhat better.
tazman,
Now that is some penetration for sure.Ouch! Back in the 70's I was offered a Winchester 458 mag, rifle by a guy that I had just ment. He knew that I was looking for one at the time,why,I don't know.I sure didn't plan on a trip to Africa but I did have high hopes for Kodiak,which for some reason never came about. I think it had to do with money.Anyhow,I shyed away from the deal when he told me he had just bought it and shot it one time.I turned to a 338 Win. mag,which was punishment enough.I don't have it anymore either.lol I even have a whole lot of expensive bullets and brass left over for it and I can't even find a buyer for them in these parts,money,just sitting there.

[Tatume]

I find the 338 and even the 300 Win Mags to be much more unpleasant to shoot than the 458 Win Mag. All of the factory ammo I have came in 18 round boxes, purchased at gun shows. The original owner bought the box, shot one, kept one as a souvenir, and sold the rest. I sold my 338 and 300 Win Mag rifles. I kept the 458.

[tazman]

All of the factory ammo I have came in 18 round boxes, purchased at gun shows. The original owner bought the box, shot one, kept one as a souvenir, and sold the rest. I sold my 338 and 300 Win Mag rifles. I kept the 458.
I can certainly see that happening. I could tell a few interesting stories about powerful rifles in large calibers.
I found for the most part, I was unable to control the magnum calibers properly. I am a recoil wuss. The only magnum rifle I was able to shoot marginally well was the 375H&H in a Winchester model 70.
I will stick with my 30-06.

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I find the 338 and even the 300 Win Mags to be much more unpleasant to shoot than the 458 Win Mag. All of the factory ammo I have came in 18 round boxes, purchased at gun shows. The original owner bought the box, shot one, kept one as a souvenir, and sold the rest. I sold my 338 and 300 Win Mag rifles. I kept the 458.
Lol,I like that story about you buying boxes of ammo with a couple of cartridges missing from the box.I never thought of it but I guess that would be pretty typical.I also got rid of my 338 and 300 mag.They were just collecting dust since I had no need for them except to shoot paper.They would be perfect Elk medicine though and if I had the chance to Elk hunt,I would still own them but the expense of those hunts are way above what I can afford.I imagine the 458 is a hard push while the 338 and the 300 proved to be a sharp punch to the shoulder that made all the nerves in my shoulder and neck wake up and jump around looking for a way to get out of my body.

[Tatume]

Your comparison of the 458 and 300/338 Win Mag recoil pretty well sums it up. As for elk, I cannot imagine a better combination than the 30-06 and 180 grain Nosler Partition bullets.

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Your comparison of the 458 and 300/338 Win Mag recoil pretty well sums it up. As for elk, I cannot imagine a better combination than the 30-06 and 180 grain Nosler Partition bullets.
Well Pard,the Winchester Feather Weight in 30-06 and all my 180 gr. Noslers and Speer Grand Slams are the combinations I will never part with,light weight,easy to carry and packs a big punch.Great choice.

[44man]

That hard with 50-50 does not sound right. I oven hardened and could not get that hard. But it did not change ductile properties of the boolit, just aided accuracy.
I hate BHN readings to tell me anything. Most destructive boolit I ever shot a deer with was a 50-50, oven hardened to 18 to 20 BHN. Worse then a Ballistic Tip by far.

[243winxb]

2% antimony when oven heat treated, water dropped will fully harden in about 2 weeks. With 6% antimony, bullet will reach full hardness in about 1 hour or less. They stay that way. Air cooled bullets with 2% tin tend to get softer over a longer period of time. http://www.keytometals.com/page.aspx?ID=CheckArticle&site=ktn&NM=88

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That hard with 50-50 does not sound right. I oven hardened and could not get that hard. But it did not change ductile properties of the boolit, just aided accuracy.
I hate BHN readings to tell me anything. Most destructive boolit I ever shot a deer with was a 50-50, oven hardened to 18 to 20 BHN. Worse then a Ballistic Tip by far.
I sure won't argue with you on that for sure.I kinda wondered about the BHN reading that high myself.I took several readings of a hand full of bullets and that's what I got with the new Cabin Tree Hardness tester.I was a little skeptical myself when CDOC sent me his 50/50 bullets to try and his read like 13 BHN.He too, water quenced them and let them sit to cure.What do you think is going on? I might want to recheck them and get back to you. When I checked them on the tester,I put the base of the bullet up against the bolt face and the pointer on the nose.You have raised the couriosity in me now.

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That hard with 50-50 does not sound right. I oven hardened and could not get that hard. But it did not change ductile properties of the boolit, just aided accuracy.
I hate BHN readings to tell me anything. Most destructive boolit I ever shot a deer with was a 50-50, oven hardened to 18 to 20 BHN. Worse then a Ballistic Tip by far.
Yep,I just took some more readings and got the same results,anywhere from 22 BHN to 24 BHN. Now as you were saying,about the 50/50 and the BHN didn't sound correct,I agree. I checked CDOC's bullets that he sent me to try,which were cast with 50/50 of the COWW and pure lead.His read 14 BHN and he water quenched his also.I'm scratching my head on this one.

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Well now,just give me an F- minus on this one. I think I stumbled across the reason my 50/50 air cooled bullets ended up being a bhn of 22 after a two week cure.While looking through my notes,I discovered,in small print,that I had added two 44 caliber hard cast bullets to the pot in the hopes of raising the bhn a little,instead,they raised it a lot.Thanks for the heads-up 44man.

[Tatume]

Two bullets do not contain enough material to appreciably change the hardness of your alloy.

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Two bullets do not contain enough material to appreciably change the hardness of your alloy.
Dog gone it! Now I am back to scratching my head. I don't have much hair left now.

[tazman]

My feeling on the hardness issue: The clip on wheelweights you use get their hardness mostly from antimony. Older versions of wheelweights had more antimony in them than current versions.
Perhaps you got a batch that had mostly older weights with the higher content. If so, even mixed 50-50, they would still have a substantial amount of antimony in the mix.
Water quenching would bring out all the hardness available, hence the readings you are getting. Any tin added to the mix would simply improve things.
Also, is it a possibility that your pure lead might not be as pure as you thought? Maybe it has a few added ingredients that could effect the mix as well.

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My feeling on the hardness issue: The clip on wheelweights you use get their hardness mostly from antimony. Older versions of wheelweights had more antimony in them than current versions.
Perhaps you got a batch that had mostly older weights with the higher content. If so, even mixed 50-50, they would still have a substantial amount of antimony in the mix.
Water quenching would bring out all the hardness available, hence the readings you are getting. Any tin added to the mix would simply improve things.
Also, is it a possibility that your pure lead might not be as pure as you thought? Maybe it has a few added ingredients that could effect the mix as well.
It could very well be some or all of the above. I have coww's from Pa. and several other suppliers around my neck of the woods.The age of the ww's is anybody's guess.In fact,I have smelted down some very old,supposedly,pure lead also and just maybe,it is like you say,could be something more added.
I cast some nice 350 gr. bullets yesterday out of just coww's and the bhn on those are 10 after air cooling. On the Cabin Tree chart,10,is listed for 20-1 and quenched ww's are 23-24. So,it could very well be that my pure lead wasn't all that pure.

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Things went a little better today with the casting and the bhn readings that I got. I weighed out 5 pounds of coww ingots and 5 pounds of pure lead ingots and melted them together and stirred the pot well.Then I added 700 grains of tin to the mix and and stirred it in well also.I casted some nice bullets and water quenched them.My bhn reading was 10.Now we'll just have to see what the reading will be in a few weeks or maybe sooner.

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Update to post number 20. I don't believe it but it is what it is. I'm to new at this to know the answer but yesterday,I cast my 405 gr. bullets with 50/50 mix of coww/pure lead and added 700 grains of tin for fill out.I water quenched them and then a little later when they were all cooled way down,I took a bhn reading of 10 for a number of bullets with my Cabin Tree.My intentions were to check the bhn again in a week or so but just for the sake of it,I checked 6 bullets today.They were all 22 bhn except for one which was 15. I really didn't expect to see much, if any, change in just one day.The The pure lead that I smelted down into ingots and used were as soft as butter,like my fishing sinkers or muzzleloading balls.These coww's around here must have bookoo antimony in them or something.

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Another update to post 20 and 21. Well,I took one of those 22 bhn bullets and put the Cabin Tree to it after I cut the 405 grainer in half.I then got a reading of 13 bhn. Then I tested a coww ingot and a pure lead ingot from the same batch that I mixed for the casting. The coww ingots checked out at 9.5 bhn and the pure lead ingot came in at 5 bhn.

[Old Caster]

I have no idea what is happening to your BHN readings but trust the Cabine Tree tester pretty much and judging by your other actions, you know what you are reading also.

I am not sure how much this all matters because a bullet that hard certainly isn't necessary. Pretty much all the BPCR shooters use pure lead mixed with tin only from 40-1 to 10-1 with most using the 20-1. These guys won't use any antimony in their guns because they are shooting black powder and have difficulty getting lead out of their barrels if the alloy has some antimony in it and if just a tiny bit doesn't come out and is covering fired black powder, the next day, it will be rusty. A few guys I know that would have put up with hard to clean and risky in a trade for accuracy tried all kinds of different alloys with varying BHN's and got such poor results that after a couple of months were back to 20-1 again. Most of these guns were 45/70 but were falling blocks instead of lever actions so the only difference to me is the longer barrel and the black but I surely believe the same accuracy could be attained with smokeless and expect the parameters to be similar but know of no one who tried it with these guns. The fastest anyone went was around 1300 fps but for a 45/70 with a near 500 grain bullet was plenty fast. Some guys had pins that showed that they had hit 15 rams in a row at 550 meters and the ram is about 12 inches tall and 48 inches wide plus they have to deal with wind and iron sights. I would try them at 9-10 BHN and see what you get because that is at least similar to hardness of 20-1.

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I have no idea what is happening to your BHN readings but trust the Cabine Tree tester pretty much and judging by your other actions, you know what you are reading also.

I am not sure how much this all matters because a bullet that hard certainly isn't necessary. Pretty much all the BPCR shooters use pure lead mixed with tin only from 40-1 to 10-1 with most using the 20-1. These guys won't use any antimony in their guns because they are shooting black powder and have difficulty getting lead out of their barrels if the alloy has some antimony in it and if just a tiny bit doesn't come out and is covering fired black powder, the next day, it will be rusty. A few guys I know that would have put up with hard to clean and risky in a trade for accuracy tried all kinds of different alloys with varying BHN's and got such poor results that after a couple of months were back to 20-1 again. Most of these guns were 45/70 but were falling blocks instead of lever actions so the only difference to me is the longer barrel and the black but I surely believe the same accuracy could be attained with smokeless and expect the parameters to be similar but know of no one who tried it with these guns. The fastest anyone went was around 1300 fps but for a 45/70 with a near 500 grain bullet was plenty fast. Some guys had pins that showed that they had hit 15 rams in a row at 550 meters and the ram is about 12 inches tall and 48 inches wide plus they have to deal with wind and iron sights. I would try them at 9-10 BHN and see what you get because that is at least similar to hardness of 20-1.
Old Caster,
Your thoughts are noted and sure spark my interest in experimenting with bullets with different levels of hardness.
You mention 1300 fps with a 500 grain bullet.I was shooting my 350 grainers at 1363 fps. and out of my Marlin GG that was snappy enough.Now I have shot the beast at over 1800 fps with jacketed bullets and sir,I am here to tell you that I will not put those speed boots on again.I'm no wimp by any means but old is old.
The sport of shooting steel at 550 yards with the old rifles and the black powder fodder was another point you brought up that sparked yet another interest to me.If it wasn't for the cost of a rifle like that,I would be all over it.I was a sniper in the Army and the long range stuff always facinated me but to be able to hit your mark with such a historic rifle would really be a reward.Lets not leave out the smell of black powder either.It's perfume in the air.
Watch your top knot,
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[Old Caster]

Those old rifles are pretty heavy, while the Marlin is quite light, but they must be shot prone off of cross sticks and I had a 40/65 with a 410 grain bullet to make recoil easier however I never got better than 5 rams in a row but shot pigs and turkeys consecutively many times. I always wondered if my caliber just wasn't up to the 550 distance. I doubt if the guys shot the 500 grain bullets for power but rather because they were the most accurate they could come up with. Most of us shot bullets from single cavity Brooks or Paul Jones molds and were so meticulous about our loading procedure that some of it got like a superstition. If something obscure was tried and the results were good that day, we would continue doing it because they couldn't take a chance that it maybe didn't matter. It was hard to test and prove a lot because reading wind was a large part of the match and it was rare to not have wind where you could prove what was the most accurate. The hardest thing at the time was finding enough pure lead and tin to make the bullets.