Old Standby Powders Not Popular Anymore?

[jonp]

I've been watching Gunbot and checking other stores online for several months now and have noticed something. Frequently old time powders such as BLC-2, H414, 4064, H380 etc are in stock and remain so for several days while others like AR Comp, CFE 223 go about as fast as they show up. Are people just interested in new powders and have forgotten about these or am I missing something?

[dh2]

I know the feeling , after I finely started loading .223 Rem. with CFE223 all hxxx broke loose and I have not found it since. I did find H335 a few mouths ago, today I found W748 and my multi propose IMR 4064 and I am the only person I know still using IMR4831
When I started this hobby I only used IMR 4350, IMR4831 and Unique the choices have changed over the years

[Cmm_3940]

Marketing? "AR" and "223" are Tacticool, after all.

I'd buy BLC-2, if I ever saw it locally, but I never do. I was fortunate enough to find an 8 pounder of H335 this week, so I should be set for a while.

I frequently see the new Alliant mystery powders that lack published data such a MR4000, 2000, power pro 86-something-or-other, but never see the old standbys Like bullseye, unique, or 2400.

[zuke]

I've never used the newer stuff. I've stuck with the old tried and proven, not to mention available!

[GoodOlBoy]

In the last two years I have found exactly ONE can of unique powder, and I forked over the $25 for it. But I have seen several can's of HP-38 which has saved my pistol reloading bacon. I used quite a bit of trail boss (yeah I know it's not an old standby) and haven't had good luck finding it either. What I absolutely can get any day of the week is IMR4198, and IMR3031. Doesn't help with pistol loads, but at least I can keep my rifles fed. For the most part you can't get a shotgun or pistol powder anywhere in Texas right now. The only thing harder to find is real black powder these days. The problem with the old standby's is that none of the shops within 200+ miles of me have ever really carried them so they aren't available either. Weirdly enough every shop I have been to lately has had can's of Retumbo, and can's of H50BMG sitting on the shelves at sale prices (IE less that $20 a pound) It's a shame I don't use either one.

GoodOlBoy

[10mmShooter]

In my area, IMR 4895 and 4064 never really completely disappeared since I load .308 for my M1a, I stick with 4895 and have a good stash. For pistol/revevolver luckily I've used Green Dot, Red Dot, and AA#5 and AA#9 and WW231. The Alliant powders seem to be "somewhat" avaialbe, I even see Unique and Bullseye sometimes...everyone grabs those two while I say excuse me and grab GD and RD :) . The Accurate Powders have been rare, I did get a 10 lb "case" off GunB of AA#5, I got an 8lber of AA#9 locally. The rarest powder of all in my experience is Winchester 231. I have an 8lber that is in my reserve supply, and have not used it since the crisis began, I just switched over to the Dot powders for now since I can use and replace them.

I did locate 12 lbs of IMR SR4756 around town and scooped it up, although discontinued, I found it to be great for my .41,(its a good general pistol powder), so that 12lbs will feed my .41 for quite a while.

I tend to be a little more thoughtful in my powder purchases now, I try to plan ahead and allocate certain powder for certain guns and try to fill in the holes, I even made a spreadsheet in excel to make sure my inventory levels where balanced.

[44man]

I think a lot is marketing, I have a feeling the new powders are easier to make. Plus demand is more because they meter easier.
I also hate to have to weigh powders like 4759 but no powder comes near it for my uses. I just got 16# of it. Hodgdon calls it "old technology". They don't understand I am also old and old fashioned.
The only newer powder I like is Varget.

[jonp]

I saw Promo, Blue Dot, H414 and H380 on GunBot last night

[mdi]

Doesn't everybody wanna try something "new and different"? I haven't seen my old stand-bys in several month (mebbe years) so if a "new and improved" powder comes available, I'll try it...

[Outpost75]

It is all marketing hype. I do all of my reloading using only Bullseye, #2400, and either 4895, 4964, Varget or RL15, depending upon which rifle powder I can get. It took.me years to use up or give away all the odds and ends of powder I'd accumulated. Now that I'm shooting mostly plainbased bullets in gallery andcowboy loads, once the #2400 is gone, it will be only Bullseye and a rifle powder.

[Larry Gibson]

Many perceive "new" as always better which we know isn't the case most often. "New" and/or "improved" always sell more product which is what the powder manufacturers are in business for. Used to be the powders we reloaders got were just excess from making factory loads or milsurp powders. Now the reloading industry is big business and we get big business methods.

Larry Gibson

[Love Life]

Roaming other gun forums, it seems people are "Stuck" on "Temperature stable" powders. They are afraid that if they load book loads in the winter, they'll cause a nuclear explosion in the summer or their groups will open up no less than 1000% due to the differences in velocity caused by temperature flux. Works for me as it leaves those great old powders on the market for me to buy. I find it hilarious how people are just now "Discovering" how great a powder IMR 4064 is. It is 100% irrelevant that it is the powder used to load M118LR and FGMM ammo...

Speaking of that, I know of a service rifle team that has switched from varget to IMR 4064 with 175 SMK due to the awesomeness of the combo. I mean, you really can't argue with 4 inches of vertical at 1,000 yds tested with a test gun...

Moving on, that same service team has also switched to IMR 4895 with the 180 gr SMK due the same long range awesomeness...

Summary: Those old powders all suck and should be left on the shelf for me to buy...you know...for the safety of the children!

[Artful]

I would have to agree that some of us shy away from Temperature sensitive powders - I quite using H110 do to some 44 mag loads I had for sillywet back in the day but in Oregon when the temp for most of the year was in the 60-75 degree area - unfortunately we did get some summer month temp's up in the 90-100 in the inland valley's - and the load that was fine at lower temp was over the top at the higher temps.

Out here in sunny Arizona - I have to remember to keep my ammo boxes shaded as air temps of 105-115 mean your metal ammo can sitting in direct sun light will be much hotter inside - think solar oven :shock: especially if it's sitting in a closed car in direct sun light (200 deg F plus)

[Bigslug]

Black powder used to be the "old standby". Smokeless was better and now black is largely gone.

The key selling points are improvement of performance (higher velocity, lower pressure, cleaner, etc...), and reducing variability (meters better, temperature insensitive)

Sure, you can work up a perfectly fine load with Olde Mixe IMR 4831. . .but you can also work up an equally good load with H4831 Short Cut that will flow better and not care nearly as much about what the outside temperature is. Your dealer has both on the shelf at about the same price. Guess which will sell out first?

We haven't significantly improved on the basic firearm mechanisms of Henry, Browning, and Mauser, but at least the chemists are making some progress with our propellants.

[fredj338]

I think it is the nature of the reloader, there are always new things to try. Availability is also a factor. The old may become the new again if shortages stay with us.

[cuzinbruce]

I bought several cans of Herter's at the flea for $5 each. Still sealed. Is that an old standby?

[WALLNUTT]

I believe Hogdon has taken over Dupont and Olin. If you used 231,HP28 is the same. 748 is BLC2 or 335(I forget). H4227 is gone,only IMR4227 remains. 296 is the same as H110. Hard to find any of them though so makes little difference. The only Alliant I've seen is the occasional lb of Unique at $30 a can.

[Beerd]

it's the same thing with beer.
..

[Blammer]

what is the price of the "new" stuff compared to the old stuff?

[Digital Dan]

Black powder used to be the "old standby". Smokeless was better and now black is largely gone.


You're gonna smoke something weird in hell for that. :-D

[dale2242]

There may be more of the "old stand by" powders on the market today because they are good and the demand is still there.
Maybe the manufactures know there will always be a demand and are producing more of it....dale

[rexherring]

My old standby powders are still 4064, 4895, 4320, 3031

[Bigslug]

You're gonna smoke something weird in hell for that. :-D

Hey, I only said it had been largely supplanted. I still like standing downwind of the stuff and huffing the sulfur fumes.

[dakotashooter2]

I'm not overly picky these days. If it makes the gun go bang and I can get reasonable accuracy I'll buy it. For most of my calibers I have a primary and secondary powder. That usually serves me pretty good availability wise.

[44man]

I miss IMR, used to call them and talk to them, gave me loads over the phone to use. Hodgdon took over almost all powders and ignore E mails. All load info on their site is jacketed for the most point.

[Eutectic]

I also hate to have to weigh powders like 4759 but no powder comes near it for my uses. I just got 16# of it. Hodgdon calls it "old technology". They don't understand I am also old and old fashioned.


The "old technology" Hodgdon refers to is called 'Porous Base'.... DuPont held the patent from the 30's for its manufacturing process.... 'Porous base' powders can do some things conventional powders still can't! But..... the plans are to discontinue the WHOLE POROUS BASE LINE!! Why?? The process needs closer scrutiny during manufacture I have heard... Not just a computer 'do it' thing! This family of powders have been more expensive for many years because of the 'hands on' monitoring required.

Probably the worst victim to this was also the first born in the 'family'. That powder is PB..... PB is widely used for loading 12 GA target loads for old shotguns with Damascus barrels. It is the only, as well as the BEST for this application. It can operate at 4,000 psi and remain fairly clean and UNIFORM shot to shot... None, I repeat NONE can hold a candle to it. So it is very sad this family of 'porous base' powders will meet their demise..... PB means 'Porous Base' by the way!

Eutectic

[ColColt]

My old standby powders are still 4064, 4895, 4320, 3031

This-but, add H4831 to feed my 270's and H322 for the .222 and 4064 for the 22-250. Not to mention for the .243 IMR 4350. Forget them new powders. They do nothing these old standbys can't do.

[44man]

The "old technology" Hodgdon refers to is called 'Porous Base'.... DuPont held the patent from the 30's for its manufacturing process.... 'Porous base' powders can do some things conventional powders still can't! But..... the plans are to discontinue the WHOLE POROUS BASE LINE!! Why?? The process needs closer scrutiny during manufacture I have heard... Not just a computer 'do it' thing! This family of powders have been more expensive for many years because of the 'hands on' monitoring required.

Probably the worst victim to this was also the first born in the 'family'. That powder is PB..... PB is widely used for loading 12 GA target loads for old shotguns with Damascus barrels. It is the only, as well as the BEST for this application. It can operate at 4,000 psi and remain fairly clean and UNIFORM shot to shot... None, I repeat NONE can hold a candle to it. So it is very sad this family of 'porous base' powders will meet their demise..... PB means 'Porous Base' by the way!

Eutectic
Thank you for that, it is true, profit enters into it all and powder easier to produce is pushed.

[butch2570]

I discussed this with hodgon, why bother making all this new powder when there is nothing wrong with the older powders ? This was there response . They were investing time and money in alot of these newer powders because some of these will use 1/3 to 2/3 less nitrocellulose in the manufacture process and with the current demand , this can and will affect how much powder/price can be produced in the future if the demands don't slow down. Cutting down on nitro is one of their major concerns right now.

[acoop101]

Marketing? "AR" and "223" are Tacticool, after all.

I'd buy BLC-2, if I ever saw it locally, but I never do. I was fortunate enough to find an 8 pounder of H335 this week, so I should be set for a while.

I frequently see the new Alliant mystery powders that lack published data such a MR4000, 2000, power pro 86-something-or-other, but never see the old standbys Like bullseye, unique, or 2400.

I wonder if that is because of the lack of published data. no one is buying ibecause of the lack f load data.
be

[Shiloh]

I've never used the newer stuff. I've stuck with the old tried and proven, not to mention available!

+1
I'm fixed up but like to replace what I shoot. Bought two pounds of Unique last spring and I'm glad I did.
He'll let me know when there is additional stock.

Shiloh

[dragon813gt]

I discussed this with hodgon, why bother making all this new powder when there is nothing wrong with the older powders ? This was there response . They were investing time and money in alot of these newer powders because some of these will use 1/3 to 2/3 less nitrocellulose in the manufacture process and with the current demand , this can and will affect how much powder/price can be produced in the future if the demands don't slow down. Cutting down on nitro is one of their major concerns right now.

From a business standpoint this a very valid reason. And should help consumers by keeping costs low. No one likes change for some reason. If the new powders perform as well or better than the old powders than it shouldn't be a problem. The potential problem I see is if the newer powders don't work over a wide range of applications. Low cost won't mean squat if I have to buy five different new powders to do the job that one old one would perform. I'm not one to buy every type of powder available. I prefer to stock as few types of powder as possible.

[butch2570]

+ 1 on keeping alot, of a few kinds of powders.. I'm with ya on that 813. Since the SR powders are going the way of the white buffalo , I have gathered up a " Amount" of 700 and 800 x , just to keep around in times of need. And to keep my 2400 company too.:razz:

[Frank46]

I'm old school like you. IMR 4350,4895,4759,2400,4227and 748. yeah sounds like a lot but I don't shoot as much as I did years back. Just like gun cleaning solvents hopes,and butch's bore shine. Seems lately everytime you open a gun magazine there's a new powder or solvent. Frank

[fredj338]

I'm old school like you. IMR 4350,4895,4759,2400,4227and 748. yeah sounds like a lot but I don't shoot as much as I did years back. Just like gun cleaning solvents hopes,and butch's bore shine. Seems lately everytime you open a gun magazine there's a new powder or solvent. Frank
Man if I only had that few!
Wst, hp38, red dot, unique, universal, WSF, sil, longshot, 800x, h110, 2400? Aa#9. Then there are the rifle powders!:holysheep

[ColColt]

Don't forget H4831, IMR 4064, RL-15, RL-19, H322, H380 and BLC-(2).

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I think there are a lot of new reloaders reading a bit to much of the latest hype about new powder.

My old standbys are Goex BP, H4831, Unique and 2400.

[hornady308]

The issue for me is loading wildcats. I don't even know where to start with most of the new powders. And the powder companies aren't spending lots of resources developing new loading data for the 30 Herrett, 270 Ren or 357 Bain & Davis.

[country gent]

For wildcatters that is a big issue with these new powders if the old standbys go away. Starting out with water volumne comparative to other cases and starting over working up all new loads is a major under taking compared to starting out with published data and tweaking it. I have worked with several wild cat cartridges where no published data is available and the work up is much more involved.Im going to stock up on powder for some of them

[Rick O'Shay]

Powder companies are in the drivers seat. They can release what powders they desire. What better time to push the new stuff when so many are desperate to get their hands on anything.
Rick.

[JohnH]

It'd be nice to be able to something sanguine and wise about this, but me fears that there is a younger generation in charge at the powder house and as their search for things to offer takes a wider world view, what we have known as staples will become more and more old fashioned. Once upon a time, powder was made in New Jersey, Florida and Canada. Reloaders only made up a small segment of the shooting population and the cartridges we were using could readily be fed with what IMR, Hercules and Winchester made and with what Hodgdon offered through surplus channels. Then came Accurate who brought us lots and lots of surplus from all over the world, and that opened another whole venue of powder availability. Now we can add Vitavuhouri , Bofors, Dynamite Nobel and whatever the Russians will sell us... because we are the largest shooting, reloading market in the world, and everyone wants a piece of the pie. I'd be shocked to see powders like Red Dot, Unique, 2400, 3031,748, 4895, 4831 go the way of the Studebaker, they are solid powders which perform and perform and perform. And we will see powders like Win 571, 780 and Hodgdon 205 come and go. It is the nature of business that older products are replaced with newer products. But I also watch and as I get older the more I realize that there is a younger generation that does not know what we know, (at many levels) and possibly never will. Their education is different, their world perception is different. I remember well when at least once a year the large circulation gun magazines would run the "What if you could only have one" gun article and people actually purchased a firearm from that standpoint. The question seems antiquated today. No one considers "just one". Did we mature, the industry mature, did the industry just shift, did the buyer and their needs/desire change. Took Winchester nearly 100 years to make over 6 million Model '94's. There have been that many AR-15's sold in the last decade alone. Colt doesn't make revolvers. I also remember when there were the big three, Ford, GM, Chrysler. Today the automobile market is dominated by international conglomerates. Who in the 1960's would have thought that 250,000 miles on a car would be considered the norm, 100,000 just getting broke in... I offer this, we stand on the verge of an explosion (no pun intended) of arms and reloading component availability. Some standbys we have known will certainly be dropped. What will come in it's place is likely to be better than we've known. I'll close with this, more than a few of us here have been casting and reloading for thirty years or more and think of reduced load shooting as the norm, but we remain on the fringes of the shooting/reloading community. There will always be powders useful to us if not catering to our needs, but then we've always made do and more with what was available.

[jonk]

I haven't tried any of the new fangled powders. I haven't even tried Varget.

Bullseye, 2400, Red Dot, SR 4759, 4198 4895, 4064, and 4350 will do me for any needs I have. I have done some playing around with 5744, but have only found one gun that it did better in than does SR or 4198.

[gnoahhh]

I haven't tried any of the new fangled powders. I haven't even tried Varget.

Bullseye, 2400, Red Dot, SR 4759, 4198 4895, 4064, and 4350 will do me for any needs I have. I have done some playing around with 5744, but have only found one gun that it did better in than does SR or 4198.

That pretty well describes me too, with the addition of Unique, and some of the Clays powders for shotguns.

[jonp]

I remember well when at least once a year the large circulation gun magazines would run the "What if you could only have one" gun article and people actually purchased a firearm from that standpoint. The question seems antiquated today. No one considers "just one".

I think a lot of people besides me do. When you don't have a ton of money you look for one that will take in the majority of shooting/hunting that you are likely to do. For me that was a 30-30 growing up as I was hunting whitetail and occasional black bear. Later it was the 308. I still can't think of anything I might hunt that this would be a bad choice for.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I never had any problem with any of the now so-called "old powders". They all worked just fine and still do. I will continue to use them as long as I can find them. If I can't then I'll have to start experimenting with something new. I'm not against change or progress, but there is a certain comfort and satisfaction in using what you always used. LLS

[.22-10-45]

Le Loupe is a man after my own heart. There is just something that feels right about using Hercules Bullseye or Unique in a couple of old Colts..both 7 1/2", .38 Colt Bisley circa 1905 & .38 Spec. Officers Model Match circa 1913.

[Treetop]

I discussed this with hodgon, why bother making all this new powder when there is nothing wrong with the older powders ? This was there response . They were investing time and money in alot of these newer powders because some of these will use 1/3 to 2/3 less nitrocellulose in the manufacture process and with the current demand , this can and will affect how much powder/price can be produced in the future if the demands don't slow down. Cutting down on nitro is one of their major concerns right now.

Thanks for this post, Butch. I have been asking myself the same question lately. At least now we know the reason for the emphasis on the "newer" powders that use less nitrocellulose.

Maybe, as more reloaders embrace the newer powders, I will be able to locate some of that older inefficient 2400 and Unique! :razz: I'm down to < 1/2 lb. of 2400 now and haven't seen any for sale for months and months, either locally or on line. I did score 8 lbs. of IMR 4227 this week using Gun Bot. I can at least use that for some of my 2400 applications until the supply and demand situation eventually rights itself. Tt.

[Fergie]

Hello all, first post here after a long time lurking.

I picked up reloading again after a decade break. My Dad reloaded quite a bit when I was younger, so I took stock of what all he had about a year ago. He always had Unique, Red Dot, and Bullseye so I figured I'd buy some more of these and follow the old log book. As many know, powder is in tight supply, and after any unsuccessful months of looking, I had found no new powder.

So, I went through all my manuals and wrote down the powders that were common between the calibers I shoot. Kept that list on me, and when I saw a powder I did not recognize on the shelf, a quick reference to the list would let me know if I could use it.

Happy to say that I was able to get several different powder types that I would not have tried previously, and they all shoot well.

To top it all off, I was at the local gun store a few months back right when the FedEx guy dropped off a very large order of Alliant powders. I walked away with 16 pounds of the old favorites that my Dad always used...serendipitous.