A .45 boolit at 4+ football fields per second or a .475 or .500 at 3+ per second?

[Swager375]

Which is better for big game hunting and wilderness protection from large animals, such as boars or bears: .45 caliber, 300-to-350 gr. boolits traveling between 1300 and 1500 f.p.s. or .475-to-.500 caliber, 400-to-450 gr. boolits traveling around 1000 f.p.s.? I've never seen this question addressed in any forum or by any gun writer. For me, shooting the big Linebaugh calibers, with heavy boolits, at over 4 football fields per second velocity ---the obvious solution --- is out of the question. I'm almost 64, have pain-free wrists and I need to keep them that way. Also, I honestly can't afford to have several different caliber pistols built by such masters as Bowen, Stroh or Linebaugh. This may be my one and only custom hunting handgun and I want to get it in the right chambering. Thank you kindly, in advance, for your assistance in this matter.

[Steve E]

When you get into that level of performance I don't think there is that much difference between the two. I would be happy with either. The 45 loading should provide a little less recoil (IMHO).

Steve..............

[telebasher]

i'd go with the one that had the highest sectional density. Penetration is everything on things that are big and or can eat you!

[725]

I agree, either have an abundance of whoop-a$$ and would suit your described needs. The weight thrown and grip configuration will be major factors on how you handle recoil. The effectiveness of whatever you end up with will depend greatly on the design and construction of the boolit or bullet you choose. Universally, shot placement trumps horsepower, so choose wisely. Get whatever you shoot best. As a matter of a fact, I'd prefer a down loaded .460 over the .500 Linebaugh.

[runfiverun]

you don't need the velocity with the "smaller" calibers either.
in fact it might be a hindrance for hunting.
44 man will hopefully come along and show his pictures of why.

[Harter66]

I'm the guy that uses everything down to its last bit. I'd go w/the 45. If you ''need'' 1 in the 460 S&W class you can down load it to your goal or use the 454 Casuall to its fullest ,both of which will hit your goal and a little maybe a lot more. You can of course back them off to Colts level or even down to ACP or GAP for proficiency and salvage trim the asst brass as short as GAP,which is a long way from the S&W.

[goblism]

Go with a 475 linebaugh, one if my favorite guns to shoot and cast for. Enjoy my other big boys though too

[44man]

I shoot a 335 gr from my old Vaquero .45 at 1160 fps and I can assure you it is very close to the .475 BFR in recoil. I had to put Pachmeyer grips on mine. The Vaquero is a light gun. It works for deer so I don't think I want to try for 1300+. Accuracy starts to go away if I increase over what I shoot.
Problem with the larger calibers is the heavy boolits don't like slow so they shoot best at 1320 fps +. My .475 is at 1329 and the .500 JRH is about 1350. The 400 Lee in the .475 will be up near 1360 fps. Slower makes a good shotgun.
Even my heavy .44 boolit needs about 1316 fps, tried slower and if I remember I was around 30" at 50. Shot right and it will do under 1".
Valid question about what you need but you still need to hit what you shoot at. That means recoil.
However the .475 is the best of the best for putting deer down at the shot. I come out of recoil to see a white belly almost every shot. The thing is a lightning bolt!
Any are hard on your wrist from the bench but not off hand. I have been shooting them for many years and never shoot light loads, have no wrist problems and am near 77 years old. I shoot nothing but my hunting loads.
I almost always pick the .500 JRH to shoot, turns the .44 into a mouse sneeze! The extreme accuracy of the JRH can't be left in the safe.
You go wrong wanting to shoot them at 1000 fps, doesn't work good. The .460 and .500 S&W do not like plinking loads either.

[srd]

I agree with 44man on several aspects. A friend of mine has a 475 and asked me to work up some loads for him. It definitely does not like mouse loads [ 1000 fps or under] at all ! Accuracy is horrid at those velocity levels. Kick up the velocity where it wants it [ 1300 to 1450] and accuracy is excellent in my opinion. Recoil? If you have spent some time with a 44 mag then the 475 is a step up in that department. Is it abusive..NO. Off the bench ..it can be interesting to say the least. Off hand..different story..very manageable in my opinion. You also need to figure in adrenaline when you are hunting with it..recoil will seem even less at that point. Would I own one after shooting that one for a while..probably not but if i ever changed my mind it would probably be in a BFR due to the extra weight to help with the recoil and i love their accuracy level. Just my 2 cents.

[goblism]

The recoil of the bfr 475 is not terrible, yes you know when you fire off a hot round but a 44 mag in a light gun is just as abusive. Think of the 475 like a cross between a 9mm and 45 acp, good hard push with a little snap.

[lbaize3]

I have a 480 Ruger (AKA 475 short). I had a 412 grain lead cast boolit loaded to 1200 fps out of my pistol. At the gun range I found a left over piece of scrap treated 2x4. It was about 4 foot long and I leaned it against a drainage culvert so I could shoot through the edge (3 and a half inches) of the board. I shot it with my 480 and the board gently tipped over as if the wind blew it down. I went the 4 paces to the board and checked it. Sure enough a hole neatly in the center of one side and another in the center of the opposite side. The hole was about three inches from the top of the piece of 2x4.

Penetration like that, even on treated pine tells me that it would have a profound effect on big game. John Taffin shot through a big buffalo with a 480... side to side. I would go with the 475 and use 400 grain or larger boolits loaded to 1200 or 1300 FPS, whichever you felt most comfortable with... I use AA#9, but H110, 296 or 1680 would do a fine job.

[44man]

Penetration, how about a 16" box elder with the lowly .45 Colt? Then 16" of seasoned oak firewood end to end with the .475, never caught the boolit. Also did 37" of soaked phone books. I have holes in the metal wall on the back of my wood bin.
Easy way to fill tags is to get two or three deer side by side! Maybe an elephant can catch one.
.

[BABore]

I personally wacked two 1,000 lb bison cows with my 480 Ruger. The first was with a commercial cast that I won't mention. The second was with a 400 gr boolit cast from HTWW's. I purposely took a quartering forward shot. The boolit centered the front leg bone above the knee about 5 inches. Then through the rib, heart, paunch, last rib on the opp. side, out, back in, and into the hind quarter stopping just off of the ham bone. Penetration was 48 inches. Velocity was 1,250 fps and shot was at 50 yards. 30 yards and flop, on video.

[44man]

Babore, you never sent me any steaks, I unfriend you! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[DougGuy]

The two slugs on the left are 340gr SSK TC boolits, recovered from over 32" of seasoned oak, shot out of a 4 5/8" barrel Ruger Vaquero over 22.5gr W296. The two on the right are the very fine Lee C452-300-RF boolits, loaded over the same amount of H110. All hail the lowly .45 Colt!

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/DSC01713_zpseefbffc2.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/DSC01713_zpseefbffc2.jpg.html)

About half of the boolits from the session where these were recovered, passed on into the cord of oak behind the first cord, so they easily carried on to 36" maybe 40-42" of wood. Again, from the lowly .45 Colt...

The Ruger Alaskan in .480 would be as good a choice as any I guess, I would have bought one of those back in the day but they didn't make them. I would REALLY have to cut and stack wood to stop one of them bad boys! :shock:

[warboar_21]

I had on video(until a computer crash) a video of a 335gr cast bullet over a max charge of H110 go through 12 gallon jugs of water and a dry phone book backstop. I shot it from my 7.5" 45Colt black hawk. Think the velocity was 1250ish. I also did the exact same thing with a 400gr Lee bullet from my .480 Ruger with 7.5" barrel. Max charge of H110 and velocity was right around the same as the 45Colt. I never found either bullet. The table I had wasn't large enough to hold anymore water and after the shot from the .480 it broke the table in half. I am willing to bet both rounds would have made 14 jugs of water. Either cartridge loaded to full potential will drop pretty much anything you point it at. Out of the two handguns I prefer the Black hawk as it is lighter and seems to handle the recoil better than the double action.

[44man]

Yeah, the lowly .45 is junk, isn't it? So is the .480! Need to look for as fast as they can be shot or they are trash.
Life is not "speed" is it? Life to a shooter is only the speed a boolit needs, no more no less.
The .45 Colt and the 45-70, the .44 and so many others will never go away. How great to still have them with us. To take a .45 to match a .44 is silly, trying to make it do more then it already does.

[Swager375]

Much obliged for the comments and info, gentlemen. Your replies have been very helpful, but you've also further confirmed what I already feared. Regardless of what chambering I settle on, I'll be happy with my choice; but I'll still have an itch for the one(s) I don't get.

I was surprised to hear about accuracy issues when using slower loads. I would think that softer boolits would solve the problem by obturation at the lower pressures.

Anyway, fellas, thanks again for your kind assistance. While I'm trying to make my decision based on practical, objective reasoning, after consulting with the chosen pistolsmith, I'll probably end up settling on the cartridge with the most "giggle factor" after the hammer falls.

[RobS]

I was surprised to hear about accuracy issues when using slower loads. I would think that softer boolits would solve the problem by obturation at the lower pressures.


It's not about obturation or hard/soft alloys. It has to do with bullet stability which requires velocity to achieve accuracy. What velocity needed depends upon the barrel twist rate and the weight/length of the boolit being shot.

[mpmarty]

It's not about obturation or hard/soft alloys. It has to do with bullet stability which requires velocity to achieve accuracy. What velocity needed depends upon the barrel twist rate and the weight/length of the boolit being shot.

Ding ding we have a winner.

[warboar_21]

I am not looking for an argument or trying to start one i'm just asking people's opinions on this topic. I have heard many people say there is no need to improve on what was already there. I have also heard others say that the 45 Colt could never do what the 44Mag does. So I always ask these questions to hear their reactions.

If the .45Colt had not been released in 1873 in the era of black powder but released in the 1950s like the 44 Magnum do you think it would have been loaded as low as it is(pressure wise)?
Do you not think that it would have been loaded to the same pressures as what the 44 Magnum was loaded to?

There has been test after test and all kinds of data by folks like Linebaugh who have shown that in modern handguns such as the Black Hawks, Red hawks, BFR, and Freedom Arms the 45Colt is able to match the same ballistics as the 44 mag with less pressure.
I honestly think if it were released in the 50s to the same specs as the 44 Magnum the 44 would have possibly gone away due to the American bigger is better Magnum mantra.

With all this being said do I feel that the original loading of the 45Colt is a capable round? History has certainly shown it to be very effective at what it was designed to do. It has taken countless head of game from small to large. It is a proven man stopper. In my opinion it's as relevant today as it was in 1873. There is nothing wrong with any of the larger calibers either. I think they all have their place and are just as effective if not more so when it comes to hunting large game.

[Dark Helmet]

a 480 moves an impressive amount of dirt.. Just sayin.:bigsmyl2:

[Swager375]

It's not about obturation or hard/soft alloys. It has to do with bullet stability which requires velocity to achieve accuracy. What velocity needed depends upon the barrel twist rate and the weight/length of the boolit being shot.

Now that's the kind of info I was looking for! I understand the relationship between boolet length and barrel twist rate, but it had never even occurred to me that the barrels used in custom revolvers might have twist rates that are inadequate to stabilize even the heaviest boolits used at less than full throttle loadings. I don't know yet if this information will be a deciding factor, but it's definitely something I need to consider. I find the possibility of dropping several thousand dollars on a special, perhaps once in a lifetime pistol, waiting a year or so to get it, and then having it not fit my wants and needs a bit disturbing.

[David2011]

Yeah, the old Colt .45 is too old school to be of any real value today. That must be why brass is so hard to find. My only animal testing with the .45 Colt is shooting hogs. The gun is a 7-1/2" Blackhawk and the boolits are the Lyman 452374 that cast around 230 grains with my alloy. I'm not trying for hardcast. It's just air cooled WW with some monotype added at a 40:1 ratio. The boolit is propelled by a Ruger and Contender only dose of 2400. Send a PM for details. All of the pigs I've shot with this load were shoot-throughs. The .45 Colt cartridge in a strong gun like the Ruger is extremely versatile from light plinking loads to very stout loads. It can also be shot in a .454 Casull or .460.

Close but not identical to your question, I shot a sow around 225 pounds with a hard RCBS-250-KT (Keith Type) zinging out of a .44 Mag Contender with the 14" barrel at 1600 fps by the chronograph. In one shoulder, out the opposite ham. The boolit was too hard and didn't expand as evidenced by the small exit hole. The 250-KT has pretty good sectional density. No numbers off the top of my head- books are out in the shop but it's long for its diameter.

After shooting a 4" .500 S&W I don't know how I could ever shoot it enough to become competent with it. Every round was punishing and I could feel it in my hand the next day after just 2 shots.

David

[krems]

I have been shooting a custom 500 Linebaugh built by the man himself and a custom 45 colt built by Bowen for a number of years. Of the two calibers I have found that the 500 Linebaugh was the easiest to load for at various velocities with normal for caliber weight bullets. I can't speak for shooting any heavy for caliber weight bullets as i never felt the need to go that route. Granted these are custom handguns with appropriate barrel/twist rates and properly matched cylinder dimensions. I can assure you that the 500 Linebaugh will shoot as accurate as any of the above mentioned calibers 475/460/480/44 etc as long as you have a properly sized/lubed bullet. I have never noticed any accuracy problems at velocities in the 850-1000 fps range at normal hunting distances. In fact I have settled on a 440 GR "Keith" style bullet at 1000 fps for my everyday hunting/plinking load. As for the Bowen built 45 Colt...with 300/ 320 grain bullets I never could get the accuracy I wanted at velocities under 1000 fps. With the lighter bullets around 260-280 grains the accuracy was pathetic no matter what velocity I shot them at. Being a custom oversized 5 shot cylinder the gun was built to handle the longer / heavier bullets at near max velocities. Any of the above mentioned calibers will work for your intended purpose. Before having a custom handgun built ( regardless of caliber) take the time to talk with you smith about your needs and ask them what weight bullets / velocities are needed for their handguns to shoot accurately. My next custom handgun will be a 475 Linebaugh. Never shot one yet but something tells me that I need to get one.

Krems

[Rdbronco]

I would call and talk to John Linebaugh , great guy with a bunch of hard earned knowledge. I was asking the same questions of the 45 colt last year ended up with a 500 Linebaugh . Krems hit it dead on , easy to control, wide variety of loadings . By the way the 475 kicks a little harder than the 500 , Go figure . Your mileage may vary .