Lube Stars, sure. . .but a LEAD Star???

[Bigslug]

I'm in the early stages or working up a load for my new NOE 311331 (218 gr RNGC) in my stainless 700 .30-06 using Accurate 5744. I cast up the slugs out of straight #2, which left them a little big in the bore-riding nose, but nothing insurmountable. No issues at all sizing them to .309", which this rifle has liked just fine with other bullets (albeit at lower speeds). Lube is Ben's Red with 5% additional beeswax to reduce gooeyness.

Somewhere approaching the 2000fps zone, the rifle starts to get lead deposits inside the crown and at the very ends of the lands at the muzzle. There did not, however, appear to be ANY leading in the bore itself. Break Free and a bronze brush - and not much work at all with them - got the bore very clean. Thinking it might not have, I followed up with JB paste. . .and basically still had clean JB paste on the patch when I was done.

So I don't think I'm getting blow-by past the gas check, but metal is clearly being vaporized somehow. Might this be antimony-related? Would I be better off with a lead-tin alloy? I'm a very puzzled man - anyone have a clue on this?

[RobS]

Ben's Red is a good lube so probably not that. However, I can not testify to a 30-06, 1:10" twist at 2,000 fps with the lube and with a somewhat quick powder at those velocities/pressures. I shot some Powder Coated boolits and found that due to the curing in the oven my heat treated boolits of 20BHN were anneal too soft and I ended up with what you are experiencing. Also if you are trying to run 2,000 fps+ you may want to switch powders to IMR 4895 or similar with a bit of dacron/polyester filler. I've had great luck with Varget and IMR 4064 which is in that IMR 4895 burn rate but just a touch slower.

[Bloodman14]

Got pics? Could be antimony wash.

[mpbarry1]

Just thinking about the basics here, leading at the end of the barrel usually means your lube is giving up. Bens red is reportedly a good lube, but ive never used it personnally.

another thing i noticed is that you are at the speed limit for normal alloys. @ 2000'/sec you are stressing. If you mean Lyman #2, it would be good to know your BHN. water dropped?

also wondering about lube grooves. how man on this design? it just sounds to me like your running out of lube.

[Tom Myers]

[QUOTE=Bigslug;2818926]--------------
Somewhere approaching the 2000fps zone, the rifle starts to get lead deposits inside the crown and at the very ends of the lands at the muzzle. There did not, however, appear to be ANY leading in the bore itself. ------------
QUOTE]

My first thought when reading this, and probably not relevant but could the cause possibly be cleaning rod wear on the lands at the crown?

[Bigslug]

Rob S: This is indeed an early foray into 5744. It's been working great in Dad's .45-70 (higher velocities and less recoil than with Varget), but yeah, we were thinking maybe a slower burn for the '06.

Gunnerd: Attempting to post pics on internet forums has proven to be one of those things that makes we want to do ballistic testing on myself, so no. This is pretty clearly a vapor deposit however. This is a new 700 XCRII with the slightly recessed crown. The recess gets a layer that comes off easily with a toothpick. The deposits on the ends of the lands are baaaaaarely creeping forward, like the earliest stages of a stalagtite forming.

MPBarry: One dedicated lube groove, plus the usual gap between the GC shank and the rear band. There's also a cannelure/crimp groove that it looks like wants to be seated just inside the case. I may start filling that on general principle, but as I say, NO apparent leading in the bore itself.

Tom Myers: No chance. I'm the original owner of this rifle and a clean-from-the-back, use-a-bore-guide, coated-one-piece-rod sort of guy.

[HeavyMetal]

So I am going to go with a lube failure, never having used Ben's red I can make no claims about it, good or bad.

Suggest you leave load alone for now and play with lubes, the old change one thing at a time racer policy, LOL!

I have used a bunch of Carnuba Red and been very happy with it.

You might get a few sample from the lube makers and try the old Lithibee lube as well, the formula is on this site.

I would also fill out every groove on that boolit for the next go round at the range, it may be the only thing you need to do.

I will keep taps on this thread as I am curious how this will turn out for you

[texassako]

I have the same mold, and had a similar problem. Try giving them a light toss in some tumble lube as a last step. It seems to help with the long bore rider section.

[fatelvis]

I would size the next boolits to .310", and lube the crimp groove also.

[Bigslug]

I have the same mold, and had a similar problem. Try giving them a light toss in some tumble lube as a last step. It seems to help with the long bore rider section.

T...T...T...Tumble lube!?!?!?!?! EEEEEEEEEEE!

Ok. . . (deep breath). . .I'll add that one to the list to try in the event that juggling live frogs counter-clockwise while nude by eclipsal moonlight fails.;-)

It seems on further digging that antimony wash is the culprit here. Due to the long, fat nose, smooth seating in the chamber is sporadically problematic with the cannelure/crimp groove seated seated partially exposed. Thinking about lubing that last groove, but since that's at the step to the bore ride section, that may not be possible to do cleanly in the 4500.

(Nice Martini .22 BTW. MKIII?)

[texassako]

Well, I believe I got the idea to try it from Ben on the same exact bullet, but I would need to hunt down the thread. I had antimony wash(I think) in the last few inches of the bore with lube just in the groove, clean bore with a single light toss in 45/45/10 after regular sizing and lubing. Grouped more consistently as well without the wash.
(It is a MK II)

[44man]

I shoot 4759 from my 45-70 revolver with a PB. No leading at all and don't clean the bore for up to 3 years. Looking for a sub powder, I tried 5744.
In few shots, my bore was full of leading. I can't explain it, shot poorly too.
I tried all the powders but 5744 was the only that gave me lead.
Ben's red works great in my 30-30 but the boolit carries enough lube. I think you are starved for lube and Ben's can be put in the crimp groove with your finger. If you get some on the nose, don't wipe it off, just keep rounds clean in a box.
I use Felix in revolvers and made my boolits with 2 to 3 GG's, I never wipe the boolits after loading, just the brass because I do make a mess, have to clean the seat dies a lot.
Sometimes it pays to be a slop!

[Bigslug]

Pretty sure that lack of lube is not the problem. The only lead (or antimony wash) is in the last fraction of a fraction of an inch, so I think what we have going on is a powder that doesn't like to go this hot. The 5744 is working AWESOME in Dad's Baikal .45-70 SXS, but that's down around 1600fps. . .which is about where this .30-06 seems to be grouping well with the stuff..

Gonna try a re-run with some SLOOOOOOOOOOW H4831 and see what happens.

I ran five slugs a little deeper in the lube sizer to see how messy lubing the foremost groove would be. Not bad - just small amount of thin flow-forward that will easily wipe off once seated. Test 1 will be with just the slower powder. Failing that, try again with the front groove full.

[Bigslug]

Slower powder seems to do the trick - not entirely, but definitely better, and have the velocities up to 2200.

Found two promising spots in the initial load workup to test further. May do two identical tests around those data points, both with and without the front groove lubed.

[tomme boy]

Tumble lube them after they are already sized and lubed normally. It really does help.

[runfiverun]

I think I would measure that last inch of barrel.
this is an off the shelf rifle.
and your peak pressure has dropped off by this point.
one other quick test would be to add a drop of atf to a golf ball sized piece of the lube, hand lube a few before sizing and fire 5-10 rounds.
that would test the lube.

[leadman]

I tried 5744 a couple of weeks ago in my 1903a3 Smith Corona sporter in place of 4759 and ended up with leading at the end of the barrel. same thing happened in my Ruger SBH Hunter in 41 mag. These boolits were coated with Hi-Tek coating.
Went back to 4759 and the leading went away.
5744 did work at slower velocities, like 1,400 to 1,700 fps in the 30-06.

[Bigslug]

Borrowing Dad's new copy of Veral Smith's book and getting some new insights. What I THINK is going on here:

The long bore-ride section is leaving antimony wash in the bore (alloy still to be tinkered with, as I'm still working with the original Rotometals Lyman #2 batch).

The gas check is scraping that wash off and piling it into the groove immediately ahead of it. I doubt there's much scraping action from the front and middle drive bands, but it's possible they are collecting this crud also.

On clearing the muzzle, that crud is getting centrifuged out into the crown recess.

Such is my current theory anyway. Why it should be worse with a different powder is a tad puzzling.

[tomme boy]

Tumble lube them and it will go away. Part of the problem is also bore condition. If it is rough it will do this. The alox really helps.

[runfiverun]

what if you are gas cutting the boolit and pushing the vaporized lead out ahead of the boolit.
if you see the grey poof of smoke.
you are either doing that, you are over pressuring the lead causing slump, or you are just plain out raising the peak pressure too fast opening the case before the boolit get's a chance to move.[or a combination of this one and the first thing I mentioned]
the powder gaining a reputation for this problem makes that last one a real possibility, just because you don't get any leading down the barrel doesn't mean boolit damage hasn't occurred.

[Bigslug]

Tumble lube them and it will go away.

See post #10. This is the LAST thing I am going to try, and will probably try a different mold before doing so. I do not regard goo on the exposed portion of my bullet as a viable solution.

[Bigslug]

what if you are gas cutting the boolit and pushing the vaporized lead out ahead of the boolit.
if you see the grey poof of smoke.
you are either doing that, you are over pressuring the lead causing slump, or you are just plain out raising the peak pressure too fast opening the case before the boolit get's a chance to move.[or a combination of this one and the first thing I mentioned]
the powder gaining a reputation for this problem makes that last one a real possibility, just because you don't get any leading down the barrel doesn't mean boolit damage hasn't occurred.

All valid points. The objective here is an accurate 220-ish grain hunting slug that tops 2000 fps. There's no lead in the bore, and if the deposits in the crown are merely cosmetic, rather than an indicator of something that's robbing me of accuracy, I won't lose any sleep over it.

In any event, the 5744 is out for this project and things in the range of 4831, 4350, and Varget are in.

Good velocity data has been obtained, accuracy testing to follow.

[runfiverun]

don't be afraid to work with a filler or a buffer.
both will help protect the base of your boolit and will also help settle down the ignition characteristics of the powder.
I also use a filler to make steps with my powder charges like 44 grs of 4831 and 44 grs with a 1 gr filler.
the filler one of course will be faster, but 3-5 of them at the end of a session will let me know if I can make that next step with the powder, or if I need to make a change for that step.

[MBTcustom]

Ive seen something like this with one of my personal custom rifles. The bore has a lot of reamer marks/chatter but its very consistent. This rifle is a tack driver, but i recently checked the crown and found it had a very easily felt "edge" on it. I couldnt tell if it was lead or steel, but I recrowned the barrel anyway. I havnt had a chance to go back out again with it, but thats what I saw.

[Bigslug]

Lubed the front groove, seated a tiny bit deeper, and continued.

Tried another loading with the 5744 at what appeared to be a promising node. It shoots great at about 1700fps and no lead star. Probably a 2MOA load.

Ran the speeds up to about 2100 with the 4831. Very shiny bore after 20 rounds and only minimal signs of wash on the crown, but the accuracy began to really fall apart. Too fast for Lyman #2 methinks. Going to try a 50/50 mix of #2 and lino - in theory bringing the BHN up to about 18-19.

Also did some more tinkering with seating depth. Apparently because the #2 slugs have had a couple more weeks to settle, I can get the bore-ride section comfortably a lot farther into the lands. Probably be a couple weeks before I can see what changes this all brings.

[popper]

It's the fast powder. Had the same problem using WST in 9. Your post #18 is correct.