Big hole hp vs little hole hp in the .44 mag

[Shuz]

Late last month I decided to modify some MP-431-256 regular point boolits by sizing with the tapered hp pin Miha furnishes with his MP-433-300 moulds. While not quite as big a hole as the Lyman Devastator, the enlarged boolits are visually much bigger than the regular hp.
The boolits were cast at the same time out of an alloy that tests Saeco 5, because I'm shooting 8.3g of Green Dot and wished to keep the velocity and recoil down without leading the bbls. Cutting to the chase.....I fired 5 shot gps out of 2 different .44 mag revolvers, and each time the enlarged hp "groups" were nearly twice the size of the regular hp groups. (2.3" vs 4.3")

One of the guns used is a super accurate 629-3 Classic DX with a 5" bbl and a Leupold 4X EER scope, and the other is a relatively new Ruger Bisley KRBS-43N with a 3-3/4" bbl and open sights. The rounds fired from the Bisley averaged 963fps with an SD of 12 and the rounds fired from the 629-3 averaged 983fps with sd's of 8 and 13.
I plan on conducting this trial again within the next few days and will enter another .44mag or two to see if the results are the same. By the way, the bbls of both guns showed absolutely no leading.
Have any of you folks compared accuracy of different hollow point sizes and/or shapes?

[Tatume]

The diameter or depth of the hollow point will make much less difference than the concentricity. Are you certain they are centered?

[Larry Gibson]

I was a long time user and proponent of the 429244 cast soft, HP'd to varying depths with the Forster 1/8" HP tool and driven to 1350 1400 fps for excellent performance on game. However, when I tried the 429640HP "Devastator" with its very large HP I saw a marked difference and improvement. I now use the Devastator for my 44 Magnum hunting loads exclusively. I even traded the 429244 mould off for a Lyman 450.

Larry Gibson

107561

[44man]

The one gun that does not need a HP is the .44. It is at home with a WLN hard boolit for any game.
You ruin penetration with a HP.
But to see an accuracy difference with different cavities is indeed strange because most HP's shoot very good.
I am going with alloy and slump, skid changes over the HP cavity. You have altered something else. The load is not conducive for accuracy to start with. 900+ is a sad place for a .44.
I don't know what Saeco 5 is but bet it is a putty ball. I hope you are shooting 50 yards, you did not say so i assume it is 25.

[gray wolf]

to much Enough info left out to make a comment.

[Larry Gibson]

Have to differ in opinion with ya 44man.

You ruin penetration with a HP.

I have yet to find that to be the case with either the HP'd 429244 or the 429640HP. I've yet to recover one of either in deer or pigs. Several threads in the hunting forum of HP cast bullets used w/o the "blowup on the shoulder" or the "lack of penetration" problems often proffered. Yes there are reported problems but almost all are associated with use of an improper alloy. I can relate as many "failures" with improperly alloyed solid cast bullets also. Such a failure is not the fault of the bullet but one of the shooter.


If cast of very soft alloy such as 20-1 or even 40-1 that 429640HP will expand nicely to a reasonable range at 983+ fps which is a very nice 44 SPL +P loading. Within 50 yards it will do nicely on deer. Not a load that I would use these days but it will do better than the classic Skeeter 44 SPL load which I have killed deer with. And if that big wide HP doesn't expand you have the same benefit of most WFN solid cast because that bullet is a WFN with a big hole in the front.

Larry Gibson

[Shuz]

Tatume--I think you may have hit on the answer. I do not know if the enlarged hole is centered. I do know that I have shot many 5 shot groups with the Lyman Devastator that Larry mentioned, and groups were often 1" or less at 25 yds with the scoped 629-3.
When I size the 429640 Devastator, I usually use the Lyman 303 top punch.

[lonewelder]

I agree the hp may not be concentric.As far as 44man and Larry I agree with both.At the diff velocities you need different things.At 900 a solid will kill deer but they will run a good ways,a hp helps this.At 1300 a solid works fine.The 44wcf has proven that for years.

[44man]

I do agree with Larry because alloy choice is much more important for the HP. It is why I asked what Saeco 5 is. I can't shoot soft lead from any revolver, I get fliers. Since I shoot deer out a little over 100 yards, I don't need them.107682 I shot this deer in the neck with my heavy WLN, .44 boolit, water dropped WW's. I don't think I will be using a HP! ;-)
I have lost whole shoulders at exit from 50-50 HP's.
Don't need a stinking rifle to destroy a deer!

[Shuz]

Saeco 5 converts to Bhn 8 or thereabouts. Pretty soft, right, but I get absolutely no leading when I'm driving the boolits at 950 to 1050 fps with a relatively fast powder like Green Dot. Lately I've had to reduce the recoil a bit due to pain in my hands from RA. I still shoot some 1100 to 1200 fps out of my 4 to 5" bbl'd guns but it's not the fun it was once. Tuff to get old!

[44man]

Saeco 5 converts to Bhn 8 or thereabouts. Pretty soft, right, but I get absolutely no leading when I'm driving the boolits at 950 to 1050 fps with a relatively fast powder like Green Dot. Lately I've had to reduce the recoil a bit due to pain in my hands from RA. I still shoot some 1100 to 1200 fps out of my 4 to 5" bbl'd guns but it's not the fun it was once. Tuff to get old!
Leading was never an issue until I tried pure. 50-50 leaves my barrels clean but all softer has needed a GC for me.
It was always the poor accuracy and fliers and why I use harder. Then again I use 296 and need case tension.
Age does a job for sure and I am going on 77. Many of you "OLD TIMERS" are just youngsters! :kidding: It is why I am an old curmudgeon after all!
I have tested everything that can be done with revolvers and then some. But IHMSA made me think more and it payed off big time. It all carried over into cast and hunting.
The .44 with my boolit or the Lee 310, a deer might get 30 yards and the .475 will drop 99% on the spot. I just can't see myself using a HP in either. I don't need to skin, gut and grind the deer in the field.
It is wrong to figure a HP will put a deer down faster. My experience with the 240 XTP has not born that out, they go twice as far with no blood trails.
The deer I shot with the 50-50 HP was ruined so bad the shoulder was pulling off with the skin but she made over 100 yards.
I find dead deer all the time, some were hit behind the shoulder with magnum rifles so the off side is busted so bad all the guts were outside the deer. They were still lost. A few years ago I walked one property and found a dozen lost deer and many were blown to bits.
The day you can convince me that a HP kills faster will be a long time coming.

[DougGuy]

I am with 44 man on the no need for a HP, I like the Lee 310-RF boolit myself, and my 7 1/2" Super Blackhawk REALLY took a shine to 50/50+2% alloy that I can scratch with a thumbnail. After I evened up the cylinder throats to match the largest one at.4325" or so, I shoot .432" boolits over 17.0gr of 2400 or 20.0gr of LilGun for my reduced power loads, we are still talking about 1150-1180f/s velocity, and It is my understanding that the softer alloy and the velocity I am shooting it at is a perfect match for the barrel twist of the Ruger. It now shoots exceptional groups, and near zero leading. I get one tiny smidge of lead in one groove, just under the front sight. That's all.

All this of course, is the result of a combination of factors, the hardness of the alloy, the velocity they are driven at, even the throats and the 11° forcing cone come into play as well. The Lee 310-RF just hits on all of it like a boat coming up on plane when everything is right. I guess with your diff HP sizes, you are shifting the center of gravity to a place in the boolit where you can't stabilize it at the velocity you are driving it at. It may need another 200 - 300f/s to hit it's sweet spot.

Also using the 310 with the .370" meplat, there is no need for a hollowpoint as this will expand somewhat but it will penetrate deeper and retain much more of it's weight. If the deer is standing behind a pine tree, no problem, hey y'all watch this, drive it right through the tree and STILL take the deer. Try that with a HP..

[harley45]

Not sure how it compares to .44 Magnum but I have the MP 200gr HP for my 10mm and cast some out of 50/50, we had a car struck 300 pound hog the other day that I got a call to put down. I had some of these loaded at 1000 fps in my car from an earlier range trip and decided to see what would happen. Long story short it expanded perfectly and lodged in the offside. Just food for thought.

[fredj338]

DOn't confuse accuracy with SD/ES numbers, the two are not the same. I find for hunting, a smaller cup point, will give good expansion & not frag, more bullet nose to support expansion.

[DougGuy]

Harley45 what you have there is like an ultimate man stopper, does lethal damage yet does not fully penetrate to endanger others or go through walls, etc. For a hunting boolit, you would want total penetration, where you have an animal bleeding out of both sides, two holed they call it, is a much more serious and effective wound that will put one down much quicker than a hollowpoint that expands and stops. True it dumps all it's kinetic energy in the target, but stopping oxygen supply to the brain is the #1 goal in putting down a game animal, and the fastest and only way to do that is to stop all blood flow asap. A through and through wound with a WFN is way more likely to accomplish this than a single entry wound from a hollowpoint.

[C. Latch]

I am with 44 man on the no need for a HP, I like the Lee 310-RF boolit myself, and my 7 1/2" Super Blackhawk REALLY took a shine to 50/50+2% alloy that I can scratch with a thumbnail. After I evened up the cylinder throats to match the largest one at.4325" or so, I shoot .432" boolits over 17.0gr of 2400 or 20.0gr of LilGun for my reduced power loads, we are still talking about 1150-1180f/s velocity, and It is my understanding that the softer alloy and the velocity I am shooting it at is a perfect match for the barrel twist of the Ruger. It now shoots exceptional groups, and near zero leading. I get one tiny smidge of lead in one groove, just under the front sight. That's all.

All this of course, is the result of a combination of factors, the hardness of the alloy, the velocity they are driven at, even the throats and the 11° forcing cone come into play as well. The Lee 310-RF just hits on all of it like a boat coming up on plane when everything is right. I guess with your diff HP sizes, you are shifting the center of gravity to a place in the boolit where you can't stabilize it at the velocity you are driving it at. It may need another 200 - 300f/s to hit it's sweet spot.

Also using the 310 with the .370" meplat, there is no need for a hollowpoint as this will expand somewhat but it will penetrate deeper and retain much more of it's weight. If the deer is standing behind a pine tree, no problem, hey y'all watch this, drive it right through the tree and STILL take the deer. Try that with a HP..


What kind of accuracy do you get with that load out past 75 to 100 yards?

[DougGuy]

What kind of accuracy do you get with that load out past 75 to 100 yards?

Don't know. All my hunting with this stuff is pretty close, I get where the woods is thick and get in a tree stand so 75% of the kills are within 25-30yds of the tree stand. I pistol hunt as a sidearm to a long gun so if it gets more than that, I just use the long gun. This boolit out of a short barreled Ruger Vaquero, for me is a 50yd boolit at the most.

[Bass Ackward]

You and your darned Green Dot. And I told you that 325pd would make you pay.

Drive ya nuts huh? You were shooting one hollow point design and one hollow CAVITY design. I'll bet that if you harden your bullets to where that big hollow point doesn't deform (outta balance) so much and your results will be different. That soft and spanking it with Green Dot and I can only imagine what that devastator bullet looks like when it exits and your velocity is just to low to stabilize it properly.

Nice to experiment and wonder why. If you need to shoot just go with what Professor Target teaches you and figure it out later if you can. Pontificating will actually lead you to the correct conclusions, sometimes.

[Shuz]

We'll see if "Professor Target" can enlighten me when I try the same experiment with a few different guns. I may even try the 329PD! Remember, the softness is to eliminate leading at that velocity and recoil level. There was absolutely no leading with these loads and alloy, but without recovering a boolit to look at the rifling marks, I may be getting skidding and be not aware of it. Then, I'm just dumb and happy with no leading!

[44man]

Bass and dougGuy see it. Fast powders do deform a boolit faster. You can't look at the final pressures, you need look when the peak occurs.
I also like close shots and 20 yards is just so good but anything out a little over 100 will be taken because of accuracy.
There is a difference with my hard boolits at long range, a deer can go a little farther then one shot close, loss of velocity and energy, so a little softer for long range would be better, but then I get those fliers and lose confidence in taking a shot so it is a trade off. I could hit a deer at 200 with my .44 if someone held a yardstick above the deer due to about a 35" drop but I would not trust a fast kill at that range. From 100 out, it starts to just poke a hole. A boolit still needs energy.
Some believe a boolit that stops dumps more energy and the amount is really so sad when you look at it. Better to use boolit work with full penetration in every case. We just don't have tons of energy. You are not going to get hydraulic shock with a revolver no matter how much meat is destroyed.
One day my grandson and I dropped a friend on stand and were walking out, jumped deer out of the thick, lots of little trees. One stopped at a paced 110 yards. I had my .45 Vaquero in the holster. Grandson said shoot! I told him I can't shoot through all the trees. I took the gun out and the doe was facing away, looking back. I held just a little high on the tail, the boolit went across her back, took her in the neck to put her down. Standing, off hand. If he would have looked at me he would see big eyes! :o
I was using either the 335 LBT or the 325 Lyman, don't remember, at 1160 fps. 21.5 gr of 296 Fed 150. 7-1/2" barrel. Both these boolits have done 1" at 75 yards from Creedmore.
I do not know how I missed trees. I have taken many deer with the .45 and it does not kill like the .44 at 1300+ FPS but it does work at closer ranges. Deer jump and walk a few yards, start to shake their heads and panic, try to run but fail fast. pretty close to an arrow hit.
Now a softer boolit would work better with a small cavity but then I could not hit as good so there is still the trade off with distance.
Actually my cap and ball Old Army kills faster with a RB. Pure lead that I love but I can't shoot it from smokeless. The Old Army has the wrong twist for the 1100+ FPS so it is a close range gun only.
Many claim full velocity with accuracy using 20 to 1 or 40 to 1 from a .44 mag. I need to see it myself.

[Bass Ackward]

Nope, you missed my thought. I wasn't thinking skidding, I was thinking slumping or forcing cone damage that caused the outta balance. Think back to how many threads you read about guys with Unique and 240 / 250 grain bullet talking accuracy loads. The Smith guys had it at 8 to 9 grains and the big Redhawk guys needed 10 to 11 grains. Why? The weight of the cylinder caused more deformation and the same 20 twist required more velocity to stabilize the outta balance slug. The Smith guys said softer bullets OK and the Ruger guys wanted rocks. And those were solids, not a fragile hollow cavity.

One really super good test for handgun stability is to shoot two separate distances double each other. This way groups should be double if they are groups. If they are patterns, then the farther distance will be more (and generally WAY more) than twice the group size. You used to read of guys saying that had 2" groups at 25 yards, but couldn't hold an 8" x 11" sheet of paper at 50 yds. As soon as enough forward velocity was lost they went ..... RPMy.

But two distances tells you right away if you have bullet damage. You could try loading single shot to reduce the cylinder mass. But if the bullet IS slumping in the throats from violent acceleration, the only way you will know that is to harden a little or go to a slower powder. With GD, you are probably at 100% burn and almost 90% of your overall velocity at the forcing cone with a gentile bullet. In your case, it's not a forcing cone, think of it as a slamming cone.

[Larry Gibson]

Many claim full velocity with accuracy using 20 to 1 or 40 to 1 from a .44 mag. I need to see it myself.

20-1 is very accurate in the 1200 - 1300 fps range and 16-1also is very accurate in the true magnum velocity range of 1350 - 1450+ fps. Of course those of us who advise the use of such also recommend it with GC'd bullets which is many times conveniently forgotten. The 270 gr 429640HPs cast of 16-1 pictured in my post above are loaded over 23 gr H110. They run 1350 out of my Ruger 6.5" FTBH and 1490 out of my 8.4" Contender. I can hold 2 -30 groups with the Ruger and right at 1.5" with the Contender at 50 yards for 6 shots. I've shot a few sub 4" groups with the Contender (same 6 shot string) at 100 yards with the 1.5X scope on it. With the iron sighted Ruger my old eyes are only good for 6 - 8" any more. Friend of mine now has my old 429244 because it shoots so well in his Red Hawk Hunter and he cast his bullets of 16-1 alloy.

hat's the best I do with jacketed bullets too. It's also about the same with the 358156 cast or 16-1 in the Ruger Security Six and Contender.

Now interestingly enough a friend loaned me the GC'd 410610s mould several years back and I cast about 500 or so of 16-1 alloy. In my Ruger Bisley with 7.5" barrel with the fast Fire sight on it I can hold right around 3 -4 moa at 100 yards with it. Velocity runs 1450 fps also.

40-1 alloy with many GC'd bullets also works just fine accuracy wise up to 900 - 1000 and maybe even 1100 fps depending on bullet and load in many magnum revolvers when the slower burning powders are used. As mentioned the 20-1 will do that with a PB'd bullet and will do it with a GC'd bullet in a revolver upwards of 1200+ fps.

In rifles PB'd cast with 20-1 and even softer give superb accuracy out to 200 - 1000 yards at upwards of 1400 - 1500 fps.

As to PB'd cast bullets with 16-1 you might recall a guy by the name of "Keith"? Seems he had something to do with the 44 Magnum and a PB'd cast bullet called the 429421. If you read his writings he settled on a 16-1 ally for that bullet in his 44 Magnums. I don't recall anyone accusing Keith of using "inaccurate" bullets?

I'm really glad the solid harder cast heavy bullets work for you. Many of us use hard cast bullets in handguns also and hunt with them. We find they do kill well enough. However, some of us just find a properly cast HP to kill better. And we choose to hunt with those.

I do not recall a single thread where a heavy hard cast bullet to be used for hunting and is the topic of the thread that anyone mentions that you all are full of it to use that kind of cast bullet when the HP is the better choice. Why is it when these HP handgun bullet threads come up some of you feel you have to jump right in and denigrate the HP to justify your own choice of bullet? And why is it when a "which is the best bullet to use" you all do the same? Why can't just state your case for the hard cast bullet and let it go at that? Is it necessary to denigrate someone else's choice to justify your own choice? I have know Shuz for a long time and I'm sure he has no qualms about using a harder cast solid (SWC or WFN) to hunt with. Neither do I. So how about just letting those of us who want to discuss HP'd cast bullets do so w/o all the BS because if you bother to read the topic of the thread it doesn't ask whether the HP is better than the solid cast bullet, now does it?.

Ok, I'm done with my rant.

Larry Gibson

[LAH]

Easy Larry, it's all ready hot in AZ.

[DougGuy]

No Larry is right, should have just stfu if I wasn't going to comment on a hp one way or another..

[44man]

Nothing missed but a boolit that slumps will also skid. So true about the boolit nose pulling the cylinder to alignment. Why I don't like a Keith any more. Look at my history!
I really like that "slamming cone" thing and if you don't mind I will use it.
Off side wear is there too when a boolit can't "pull" the cylinder. It can even wear a throat oblong.
Most do not know what a fired boolit looks like and still believe you must use soft to expand to obturate. They call it "FIT."
One of the best is that hard lead will lead the bore. Just maybe the boolit is too small for "fit" to start with.
Then a GC is to scrape out lead or protect a base from heat.
These things just keep being repeated forever. The boolit you seat and shoot should never change in any way to the target. Not only from going in the brass but all the way. Only rifling marks allowed and they must not be wider then the lands and grooves at the base.
Cylinder alignment is so important it is crazy. I have an 11* cone in my SBH so I made my mold with as close to 11* on the nose I could. It is like putting on a nice deerskin glove and works. How else to get 1-5/16" at 200 yards from on old SBH? 107777107778Then my .45 Vaquero, five shots at 50 yards. Shot Creedmore.
Nothing is learned at 25 yards regardless. Start at 50 and go to 100, the .44 is not a close range plinker.
Slamming a soft HP into the cone is like laying your boolit on a RR track.
Since the OP was asking about an accuracy difference, it has been explained.
It wandered but I would like to see long range groups shot with dead soft lead.
Remember the tests I did with the RCBS 250, 231 and Unique where groups were sad until I got to 28 and 30 BHN so the shoulders did not get mashed off in the cone?
Another saying I hate is "shoots good." bang and a hole in the paper somewhere is GOOD I guess. 107780 Has anyone done this at 50 yards with a .500 JRH using soft lead? 107781or this at 100, same gun? 107782Five shotgun shells shot in the bases at 50 yards, same gun, only found three in the weeds but hit five in a row. Had the old scope on before I got the Ultra dot. Other targets used the Ultra Dot.
Larry, a picture is important. I am hard pressed when you say 20 to 1 or 16 to 1 "shoots good." Most can't do what I do when they shoot jacketed.
This old fart can get skeery with a revolver. 107785Off hand at 100 with the SBH, yeah, 3/4" for three shots. 330 gr boolit. Center of deer right?

[44man]

The revolver is a wonderful machine once you learn it. Too much junk still pushed that doesn't work at all. I have actually come to agree with some stuff to keep piece even though I know it is wrong so I always say to test for yourself. It gets me out of the loop when you do some work and fail.
I never say "I told you so." You must learn yourself.
Nobody has made the revolver shoot like I have no matter what you read. Just plain hard work I share.
It is not hard once you leave the gun rags and old wives tales behind.
But the wrong stuff continues to be told.

[Larry Gibson]

That is all great 44man......and I don't see me nor anyone else disagreeing with you. However, just what does anything in the last two posts of yours have to do with the OP (Shuz) question; "Big hole hp vs little hole hp in the .44 mag"?

BTW just to keep my post within the topic of HP'd cast bullets; just in case you missed it the profile of the 429640HP isn't all that different from the one you posted above is it? Perhaps that's why it shoots so well and, given the same velocity, hits just as hard as yours.......that is if it doesn't expand. If it does expand then it hits harder and since I haven't recovered one from game yet I'd say the penetration is more than adequate. So which one is going t kill deer, pigs, bears or elk? Both of them are. You use yours and I'll use mine and Shuz can pick which size HP he wants in his. What a country, eh? So far at least..........

Larry Gibson

107800

[C. Latch]

That is all great 44man......and I don't see me nor anyone else disagreeing with you. However, just what does anything in the last two posts of yours have to do with the OP (Shuz) question; "Big hole hp vs little hole hp in the .44 mag"?

BTW just to keep my post within the topic of HP'd cast bullets; just in case you missed it the profile of the 429640HP isn't all that different from the one you posted above is it? Perhaps that's why it shoots so well and, given the same velocity, hits just as hard as yours.......that is if it doesn't expand. If it does expand then it hits harder and since I haven't recovered one from game yet I'd say the penetration is more than adequate. So which one is going t kill deer, pigs, bears or elk? Both of them are. You use yours and I'll use mine and Shuz can pick which size HP he wants in his. What a country, eh? So far at least..........

Larry Gibson

107800
Someone ought to scale that very bullet up to .45 caliber and sell me a mold.


I'm following this back-and-forth in this thread with a great deal of interest. I have a couple of questions for y'all:

1) Does everyone here generally agree that in handguns (.44 magnum and up), shorter bullets need to be, or can be, driven faster with good accuracy?

I ask because my best effort thus far was with a ~305-grain bullet at ~1175', but would like to try a lighter bullet at a bit higher speed.

Also.....for any given bullet profile, does everyone agree that once that bullet is hollow-pointed, it can be, or needs to be, drive a bit faster for accuracy?


It seems like with the Ruger Blackhawks, the 1150' range seems to work great for 300-325 grain bullets (from what I read here which loosely matches my own shooting). What range works for a 280 grain bullet? What range works for a 250? Do these ranges generally stay the same or slightly move up when the bullet is converted to a hollowpoint?


I'm thinking I'd like to try a hollowpoint mold in the 260-290 grain range this fall. I'm not worried about meat damage - I don't eat ribs much anyway, and if I shoot in the shoulders it's usually lower and away from the meaty part anyway. I am, however, worried about short, easy to follow blood trails.

[Larry Gibson]

C. Latch

Given the same revolver and barrel length the velocity obtainable with the 44 magnum goes up as bullet weight goes down. Given a 6.5" barrel for instance the 1175 fps with the 305 gr bullet may be all that is obtainable safely. My 429640HP weights 270 gr fully dressed cast of 16-1 or COWWs + 2% tin and then mixed 50/50 with lead. 1350 fps out of my 6.5" barreled Ruger FTBH is a max safe load with H110. With a Keith 250 gr 1450 fps is doable at safe psi. I haven't shot many 300+ cast bullets in my 44s because I prefer the 200 - 270 gr cast bullets. I pretty much restrict myself to 100 yards max range for hunting with the iron sighted Ruger and find not much difference in accuracy between the classic Keith 22/2400 load under the RCBS 44-250-KT cast of #2 alloy or the 429640HP cast of 16-1 alloy over 23/H110. I can hit the heart/lung area of a deer or pig out to 100 yards w/o holding off fur (75 yard zero). In my scoped Contender the GC'd 429244 and the 429640HP always proved more accurate and from a rest I could manage the heart lung of a deer out to 200 - 250 yards with either. However, as 44man says the hold over required presents the problem so I simply restrict my self to 100 yards max with it also. If I want to shoot at rifle ranges I use a rifle......that's just my own personal decision.

Larry Gibson

[C. Latch]

C. Latch

Given the same revolver and barrel length the velocity obtainable with the 44 magnum goes up as bullet weight goes down. Given a 6.5" barrel for instance the 1175 fps with the 305 gr bullet may be all that is obtainable safely. My 429640HP weights 270 gr fully dressed cast of 16-1 or COWWs + 2% tin and then mixed 50/50 with lead. 1350 fps out of my 6.5" barreled Ruger FTBH is a max safe load with H110. With a Keith 250 gr 1450 fps is doable at safe psi. I haven't shot many 300+ cast bullets in my 44s because I prefer the 200 - 270 gr cast bullets. I pretty much restrict myself to 100 yards max range for hunting with the iron sighted Ruger and find not much difference in accuracy between the classic Keith 22/2400 load under the RCBS 44-250-KT cast of #2 alloy or the 429640HP cast of 16-1 alloy over 23/H110. I can hit the heart/lung area of a deer or pig out to 100 yards w/o holding off fur (75 yard zero). In my scoped Contender the GC'd 429244 and the 429640HP always proved more accurate and from a rest I could manage the heart lung of a deer out to 200 - 250 yards with either. However, as 44man says the hold over required presents the problem so I simply restrict my self to 100 yards max with it also. If I want to shoot at rifle ranges I use a rifle......that's just my own personal decision.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

for any given bullet weight, have you found a certain velocity where accuracy seemed to be best?

44man has indicated that for the heavier .45 bullets, this 'optimum velocity' was somewhere around 1150 to 1175' (which can easily be beaten with a 5.5" Blackhawk, but I'm asking about optimum velocity, not maximum velocity).

I made my earlier post with this idea in mind: is the idea of an 'optimum velocity' a valid idea, or can one expect to get equal accuracy with a given bullet regardless of whether it's driven at 1150, 1250, 1350, or more, assuming the proper alloy, size, etc?

That's what I'm trying to get at. I've shot my 305-grain bullet well past 1250' MV but, as 44man has alluded to, my most accurate load (with VV N110) was at ~1175'. I'm wondering if I can expect a similar result with a lighter bullet - for instance, if I drop down to a ~275 grain bullet than might be safely driven to 1375 or 1400', should I expect to see best accuracy at some point below that, like roughly 1275 to 1300'?

After seeing how the 305-grain bullet penetrates it has occurred to me that there's not a whitetail on earth that couldn't be shot through with a lighter bullet, even a hollowpoint, and that's sort of driving my questions here.

[41mag]

Have any of you folks compared accuracy of different hollow point sizes and/or shapes?

I am not EVEN going to get into the discussion with Larry or 44man, as they both make my experiences with handguns and lead look dismal. They have both give me great insight to different aspects of loading cast for my revolvers.

As to your question I will answer to the best I can with my own experiences, molds, and alloy.

I started off casting solids for a couple of revolvers, the 44 mag in a Redhawk was one of them. I found that all of these already discussed bullets shot pretty darned good with straight air cooled WW alloy. The deal with Hp's however as your probably aware is that the straight WW alloy is a bit brittle resulting in the noses shattering or simply blowing off upon impact.

that said I also found that my reserves of WW alloy were dwindling fast with no hope in sight of building them back up unless I purchased it and finding folks selling it on a regular basis when I could afford to pick it up was nothing short of hitting pay dirt on a scratch off. I stepped out on a limb and picked up some of the Lg Iso core and began working with it instead. As with WW, the alloy in it's pure form worked excellent for solids but again was too brittle for HP's. I began to blend in pure and add tin into is to bring the tin and antimony up to even levels. I found that this worked out wonderfully getting HP's to fully expand, and yet they could be driven to a bit higher velocity with only a slight difference in the formulas. I used the alloy calculator posted up in the Lead and Alloy section by Bumpo to derive the blends to what I thought I might need.

My first trials were with my 45 Colt using the MP molds. The first was the 45-270 SAA which shoots wonderfully at around 1000fps, out to further than I can hold them. The next one up was the MP 452-640 with both the small and large pins. Again at the 1000-1100'ish fps range these not only shot well but also expanded far more than I thought they would and still hold together. My alloy at this point was a 1.5/1.5/97 or roughly there bouts with a BHN of around 10.

Moving on to the 44, I found that my alloy needed to be a bit more substantial with the added pressure and velocity, and using only the PB bullets from the MP molds. I chose two designs which were closest to the ones I had for the 45 in the Keith type SWC and the 640 design. I bumped up the hardness of my alloy from around a 10 which was what worked so well in the Colt to around a 12. My formula resulted in something along the lines of a 1.75/1.75/96.5. This works well with the larger cavity HP's form the 640, but the velocity cannot be bumped up to much over 1150 before leading started to raise it's ugly head. So back to the blending, and now I have about the same alloy in a 2/2/96, which shoots great at velocities up to around 1300fps, and also will hold together and expand with no fragmenting, or loosing the nose rings after expanding.

Granted there are a hundred ways to get there depending on what base metals you have available to work with, but I DO feel it might have to do with your alloy more than anything. Aside from that possibly your formed HP isn't centered as well and is causing an out of balance to your bullets as it heads to the target. Just a touch harder might result in a big change in accuracy. I found that out when I went to the 44 myself. Not to say you CAN"T get great accuracy with a soft alloy, but something in at least the 10-12 BHN might be substantially better for the purpose. One might even try using some Lyman 2, which is what a friend has, and is adding in pure lead to accomplish the same thing.

I'm not sure just where your headed with your goal in the expansion of the HP's, but here are a few from my 45 Colt that you can see where I was gong. These were with the first alloy 1.5/1.5/97,
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=81564&d=1378939949


These were some of the bullets in the above picture right side, the 452-640's Lg Cavity only with the slightly harder 1.75/1.75/96.5,
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=81563&d=1378939907
T
he velocities of the above are running around 1150fps loaded over 13grs of HS-6 from my 7.5" Redhawk.

With the above in mind and your load as posted at the top, you could probably easily get great expansion from either of these alloys, and your accuracy could improve as well simply do to them being a touch harder. The first or something very similar even with a higher BHN could be all that is needed, and would easily get some good expansion as I shoot that top listed alloy in my ACP at around 850fps and get almost identical results from the MP 452-200 HP as what is pictured in the bottom photo.

Hope this helps.

[44man]

Larry, what I was trying to say is the large HP with the soft lead is more prone to slump damage and cone impact. Slump is real even with BP. Guys tried the Lee .45 boolit and recovered boolits showed the nose slumped so bad they were engraved fully with rifling on one side only.
The big HP of soft in the revolver could slump so bad it could near close the cavity or get off center.
Many of those you shoot might become a solid point!
C. Latch, each boolit needs the right spin and just needs a work up. The 320 LBT from my .44 is going 1316 FPS. I don't know the 330, never checked it but I use 1/2 gr less 296. I don't know the Lee 310 either but I use 21.5 of 296 with the Lee and LBT but 21 with the 330.
The .45 Colt uses 21.5 also with the Lee 300, LBT 335 and also the Lyman 320 that drops at 347 gr, made no difference at all. I use a Fed 150 with all. The LBT is 1160 FPS.
My 265 RD from the .44 uses 22 gr of 296 and holds at 1-1/4" at 100 yards. I use Felix on it even though it is a TL.107834 I showed this before, notice what a Keith can turn into if soft? What is actually exiting your muzzle? Why not start with the right boolit shape first? You might THINK you are hitting deer with a big HP but might be wrong. 107835 Here are my Lyman .45 and the 420, .475 recovered. The .475 shows skid at the front but is gone at the base. The Lyman is perfect. Both are extremely accurate. The .475 is the boolit I hit a 6" swinger 4 out of 5 at 400 yards, first shot a sighter. Shows some skid does not hurt if it stops. It is the boolit that made one hole at 50 yards.
The most important thing you need do is to keep boolit integrity and work for the right velocity and spin.
I recovered thousands of boolits, it tells the tale.
Larry you need to catch boolits without impact damage to show us. Notice also there is NO lube in the grooves of my boolits. The slumped Keith has NO lube grooves at all for the bore. I wonder how bad it leaded? Does no good to squirt lube out the gap. Some you say you shoot will also push lead out the gap.
I don't do this for fun or to make noise. I work for accuracy and to kill deer. I out shoot rifles.
What did Elmer's boolit look like? Pure with some tin. bet they slumped! You keep saying you can shoot dead soft but the ball has been hit and coming to your side of the court. You will have a hard time telling me your boolit looks the same as cast or you had lube grooves.

[44man]

I am not EVEN going to get into the discussion with Larry or 44man, as they both make my experiences with handguns and lead look dismal. They have both give me great insight to different aspects of loading cast for my revolvers.

As to your question I will answer to the best I can with my own experiences, molds, and alloy.

I started off casting solids for a couple of revolvers, the 44 mag in a Redhawk was one of them. I found that all of these already discussed bullets shot pretty darned good with straight air cooled WW alloy. The deal with Hp's however as your probably aware is that the straight WW alloy is a bit brittle resulting in the noses shattering or simply blowing off upon impact.

that said I also found that my reserves of WW alloy were dwindling fast with no hope in sight of building them back up unless I purchased it and finding folks selling it on a regular basis when I could afford to pick it up was nothing short of hitting pay dirt on a scratch off. I stepped out on a limb and picked up some of the Lg Iso core and began working with it instead. As with WW, the alloy in it's pure form worked excellent for solids but again was too brittle for HP's. I began to blend in pure and add tin into is to bring the tin and antimony up to even levels. I found that this worked out wonderfully getting HP's to fully expand, and yet they could be driven to a bit higher velocity with only a slight difference in the formulas. I used the alloy calculator posted up in the Lead and Alloy section by Bumpo to derive the blends to what I thought I might need.

My first trials were with my 45 Colt using the MP molds. The first was the 45-270 SAA which shoots wonderfully at around 1000fps, out to further than I can hold them. The next one up was the MP 452-640 with both the small and large pins. Again at the 1000-1100'ish fps range these not only shot well but also expanded far more than I thought they would and still hold together. My alloy at this point was a 1.5/1.5/97 or roughly there bouts with a BHN of around 10.

Moving on to the 44, I found that my alloy needed to be a bit more substantial with the added pressure and velocity, and using only the PB bullets from the MP molds. I chose two designs which were closest to the ones I had for the 45 in the Keith type SWC and the 640 design. I bumped up the hardness of my alloy from around a 10 which was what worked so well in the Colt to around a 12. My formula resulted in something along the lines of a 1.75/1.75/96.5. This works well with the larger cavity HP's form the 640, but the velocity cannot be bumped up to much over 1150 before leading started to raise it's ugly head. So back to the blending, and now I have about the same alloy in a 2/2/96, which shoots great at velocities up to around 1300fps, and also will hold together and expand with no fragmenting, or loosing the nose rings after expanding.

Granted there are a hundred ways to get there depending on what base metals you have available to work with, but I DO feel it might have to do with your alloy more than anything. Aside from that possibly your formed HP isn't centered as well and is causing an out of balance to your bullets as it heads to the target. Just a touch harder might result in a big change in accuracy. I found that out when I went to the 44 myself. Not to say you CAN"T get great accuracy with a soft alloy, but something in at least the 10-12 BHN might be substantially better for the purpose. One might even try using some Lyman 2, which is what a friend has, and is adding in pure lead to accomplish the same thing.

I'm not sure just where your headed with your goal in the expansion of the HP's, but here are a few from my 45 Colt that you can see where I was gong. These were with the first alloy 1.5/1.5/97,
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=81564&d=1378939949


These were some of the bullets in the above picture right side, the 452-640's Lg Cavity only with the slightly harder 1.75/1.75/96.5,
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=81563&d=1378939907
T
he velocities of the above are running around 1150fps loaded over 13grs of HS-6 from my 7.5" Redhawk.

With the above in mind and your load as posted at the top, you could probably easily get great expansion from either of these alloys, and your accuracy could improve as well simply do to them being a touch harder. The first or something very similar even with a higher BHN could be all that is needed, and would easily get some good expansion as I shoot that top listed alloy in my ACP at around 850fps and get almost identical results from the MP 452-200 HP as what is pictured in the bottom photo.

Hope this helps.
Nice expansion but that could limit penetration on an animal. I would never shoot those at larger then a small deer. Even then you could lose much meat or lose a deer.107838 Looks close to the 240 XTP's that were sad for recovery. I was lucky that I could watch the deer for a long distance. These bullets were behind the shoulder, double lung shots with no blood trails at all. The largest was a 200# buck and then a few 90# doe, strange I recovered all three bullets. You THINK they kill better but watch out!

[Larry Gibson]

44man

Larry you need to catch boolits without impact damage to show us.

Again I'll ask; just what does that have to do with the OPs question regarding what size HP will perform better? Suggest you take a hard look at the HP expanded bullets 41mag posted. Those are with a softer alloy matched to the 1150 fps velocity used. The alloys I suggest are matched to the higher velocities I use. I do "catch" bullets but the object is to measure expansion and penetration against a control; a known performing bullet. I use sopping wet news print and the control is the Hornady 240 gr XTP at 1450 fps for the 44 magnum. I have "caught" my 429244HPs and 429640Hps at 25, 50 and 100 yards in such test media. I adjust the alloy to meet essentially equal or better expansion and sufficient penetration than the control load.

Also I test for accuracy The results were in a previous post) and with such accuracy and confirmed expansion it doesn't matter if there is or is not any "slumping". Based on the holes in the targets and the expansion at those test ranges I seriously doubt "slumping was or is an issue. I'm sure I could get "slumping" if I used too soft an alloy. However, from the get go I have stated the concept is to achieve a balance of accuracy and expansion at the desired velocity. We do this through varying the alloy and possibly the HP shape and depth.

To reiterate; "slumping" was not part of the OPs question and neither was was the bullet design. The question was one of the size and effectiveness of the HP.

Larry Gibson

BTW; excellent post 41mag.

[Piedmont]

107834 I showed this before, notice what a Keith can turn into if soft? What is actually exiting your muzzle? Why not start with the right boolit shape first?

You keep posting that picture to support your use of rock hard bullets. I am going to call you on it. That photo is from an old Handloader magazine (I have it) and it is an incredibly soft bullet (1-30 or softer, and an overload of H2400--north of 23 grains. Unsafe load, don't anyone use it.) Also, it isn't a Keith, that is the Thompson bullet. Every time you post that picture and don't tell the details you are misleading the board members. The vast majority don't have that magazine and so are prone to accept what you tell them at face value, which suits your purposes but is misleading.

[LAH]

:popcorn::popcorn:And the plot thickens:popcorn::popcorn:

[DougGuy]

C. Latch

I simply restrict my self to 100 yards max with it also. If I want to shoot at rifle ranges I use a rifle......that's just my own personal decision.

Larry Gibson

That's what I was saying earlier when asked about accuracy to 75-100yds. My old eyes are great up to about 50yds and iron sights, but more than that yeah I need to use the rifle. Not that my pistol ain't capable, I don't trust my eyes that far.

I quit using hollowpoints in my .44 because they were shedding jackets, coming apart, fragmenting, and flecking the meat with lead and gilding metal. These were XTPs. I had a box of Winchester Partition Gold that used (I *think*) the very fine Nosler 250gr partition hollowpoint (which for some reason we cannot buy anymore) that completely penetrated and did major damage on both sides of the deer, I was never able to recover any of those like I did the XTPs. I did not find the level of damaged meat with lead or gilding metal so I am assuming that they stayed together for the most part. Would have been nice to have recovered at least one of them.

Now that I have arrived at castboolits, learned about the Lee RF boolits, I run them a little soft with a GC so the soft alloy will let it expand, that kinda does for me what I would want out of a hollowpoint anyway. The devastator, like Larry says, is almost the same ojive as the RF, if I had some I would test them against the RF for groups, I wonder if it would stabilize at 1150 our of my SBH? The RF seems to do pretty good at that speed.

Very nice post 41mag, thanks for that one..

[41mag]

Thanks for the kudo's, but I really got into playing with those HP molds and well like with everything else, it boils down to matching the alloy with the pressure and velocity, the bullet "type" really doesn't seem to matter.

44man,

I fully agree that those pictured might not be the very best for busting a deer with, I was however simply showing what the differences in alloy and the velocities I was using them at had shown me.

Also like I mentioned on along the bottom of the post, I have also increased the hardness of the alloy up into the 2/2/96 range which "should" by previous results also slow the expansion some as well.

I do have to say however that all of the above were captured in 5 gallon buckets filled with sand laying on their sides, and being shot into the lids. The targets were either stapled or pull and stick type. So with that in mind, all of them had to hit and traverse a roughly 1/8" thick piece of plastic straight on before entering the soft sandy loam dirt they were filled with. Most of them penetrated into this roughly 10-16" depending on which ones it was. The heavier ones went deeper but they still all held together which was my initial hope.

My main goal is to try and get the best of both worlds at the velocities I shoot the most with, and to work them into accurate hunting loads. I have tried, well just about every time I have been to the country to find some good natured feral hog, who was up for a little bullet testing, but to date I unfortunately haven't run across one yet.

I do however fully agree that the bullets in top pic are overly soft for the application. None the less one has to start somewhere, and also to be able to utilize the metals one has on hand to be able to reproduce those results. that was one of the reasons I stuck with the ico cores, they don't need much extra in tin or pure to get the alloy working good. Working with straight pure and tin or trying to rely on this batch and several more like it to be as close with WW's simply wasn't an option for me with what little bit I have of them.

As for catching them to see if they show slump, I would LOVE to be able to do just that myself. In my case however it would take hitting the center of the open end of a 20" piece of pipe filled with water out around 200yds with each of them. That would be the only way I can see that I could recover one with no appreciable damage to it other then being fired with a top end load for the alloy. If you have another method I will look into it the next trip up to the country. With the way they open up though, I'm not even sure that would keep them in pristine condition.

Just so I CAN show a somewhat even playing field with the 1.75/1.75/96.5 alloy, here is the Accurate 454280C fired at 50yds from the same load listed above, 13grs of HS-6 from my 45 Colt. I have full confidence in them getting to the far side of anything I put them into though,
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/asset.php?fid=89129&uid=2895&d=1392334953

and just for kicks, same alloy and the MP 358640with the large cavity driven to around 1300'ish fps from 13grs of AA-9 in my 6" GP 100, shown below,

[C. Latch]

41mag,

Let me ask you if I'm processing your words correctly:

let's say I had a .45 bullet, maybe 260-280 grains when cast in a mold with a wide nose that had been hollowpointed with a large, deep nose cavity.

(I have done this with 50/50+2%, which should work out to ~1.3% Sb and 2.3% Sn, and it was too soft and at ~1250 or more it mushroomed violently in pure water, which, again, is harder on bullets than flesh, but, still, it expanded more than I wanted).

Anyway....

You seem to be saying that a 96-2-2 mix with such a bullet at 1200 to 1300 expands well but holds together well enough to penetrate well.

So....I'd need roughly a 3:1 mix of COWW and SOWW, then add 2% tin, and that should leave me with roughly an alloy of 95.5 Pb, 2 Sb, and 2.5 Sn, and such an alloy should be tough enough to more-or-less hold together on a shoulder-shot deer, but still expand somewhat even on a lung shot....right?

[C. Latch]

C. Latch, each boolit needs the right spin and just needs a work up. The 320 LBT from my .44 is going 1316 FPS. I don't know the 330, never checked it but I use 1/2 gr less 296. I don't know the Lee 310 either but I use 21.5 of 296 with the Lee and LBT but 21 with the 330.
The .45 Colt uses 21.5 also with the Lee 300, LBT 335 and also the Lyman 320 that drops at 347 gr, made no difference at all. I use a Fed 150 with all. The LBT is 1160 FPS.
My 265 RD from the .44 uses 22 gr of 296 and holds at 1-1/4" at 100 yards. I use Felix on it even though it is a TL.



The part in bold is what I was getting at.

A) how reliably can we predict this 'right' velocity, given that we know diameter, twist rate, nose shape, weight/length, and so on?

I'm wanting to try a 270-ish .45 hollowpoint this year on deer. I know you disagree on the HP aspect of deer use, but I'm still trying to learn your theory on getting accuracy from handguns, and what sort of speed I should expect to be 'optimum' for such a (270 gr. 45 HP) bullet.

[44man]

You keep posting that picture to support your use of rock hard bullets. I am going to call you on it. That photo is from an old Handloader magazine (I have it) and it is an incredibly soft bullet (1-30 or softer, and an overload of H2400--north of 23 grains. Unsafe load, don't anyone use it.) Also, it isn't a Keith, that is the Thompson bullet. Every time you post that picture and don't tell the details you are misleading the board members. The vast majority don't have that magazine and so are prone to accept what you tell them at face value, which suits your purposes but is misleading.
Yes, from Handloader but NOT 23 gr of 2400. I no longer have the article so please post it as written. Nothing at all was stated as to the alloy, only that it was too soft.
Thompson or Keith, both semi wad cutters.
Take a picture of the page and post it.
41mag, boolits must not be damaged from impact to show what happens to them. Water will bust them as much as wet sand. Not easy to do with a HP. I will profess to not knowing how you can do it.
Larry still doesn't get the fact that one boolit can go to pot faster then another depending on the nose or HP size. Just expansion has nothing to do with the boolit in the bore or cone, etc. Just shows impact later. I want to know what a boolit looks like before impact. I cringe at the idea of catching a HP, soft boolit that will show just internal gun damage.
I let Larry off the hook because unless you catch a boolit with a glove over 1000 yards, you will get damage. I am nasty asking to prove something that can't be done.

[41mag]

[QUOTE]Anyway....

You seem to be saying that a 96-2-2 mix with such a bullet at 1200 to 1300 expands well but holds together well enough to penetrate well.

So....I'd need roughly a 3:1 mix of COWW and SOWW, then add 2% tin, and that should leave me with roughly an alloy of 95.5 Pb, 2 Sb, and 2.5 Sn, and such an alloy should be tough enough to more-or-less hold together on a shoulder-shot deer, but still expand somewhat even on a lung shot....right?/QUOTE]

What I have been working towards is keeping the Sb & Sn to roughly equal portions. This should, from most of what I have studied up on, provide not only a stable, but malleable alloy.

Still however it becomes a balancing act between the alloy, velocity, and even the size of the hp cavity. As you can see the solid Accurate bullet expands pretty darned good itself, with no cavity at all. I am actually trying to get that sort of performance from the HP's.

It might take dropping the size of the pin as well, or simply using the blank pins and pouring solids. Like I mentioned in my first post, I am working through it with determination and wanted to share what I personally have found and learned. It might also simply be as easy as dropping the velocities down as well. Neither of us however will find our answer without sending something downrange and working with some sort of media first. We will never be totally sure until we drop the hammer on our intended target. Until then, and even with wfn solids, it's still all a guess.

[C. Latch]

That's what I was saying earlier when asked about accuracy to 75-100yds. My old eyes are great up to about 50yds and iron sights, but more than that yeah I need to use the rifle. Not that my pistol ain't capable, I don't trust my eyes that far.
..


Doug and Larry,

When I ask about 100-yard accuracy from a hunting handgun, it's not for the purposes of trying to shoot stuff at 100 yards; it's just that I want to have absolute confidence out to well, well past the range at which I'm likely to shoot.


After reading the last little bit of this thread I was inspired to grab one round of my 1250' MV 305-grain .452 flat point (.34xx" meplat) and shoot it into water, just to see how it expanded.

Unfortunately, it went through 44" or so of water and departed for parts beyond. Looks like I need a deeper water testing trough. ;-)

[41mag]

Unfortunately, it went through 44" or so of water and departed for parts beyond. Looks like I need a deeper water testing trough. :wink:

Oh man I hate it when that happens.:bigsmyl2:

But I too have been there, even using buckets of packed dirt.

Sure is an eye opener though.

[DougGuy]

Unfortunately, it went through 44" or so of water and departed for parts beyond. Looks like I need a deeper water testing trough. :wink:

Haha NOW you understand my comment about the deer standing behind the tree, "hey y'all watch this" shoot thru the tree and still take the deer.. That, is one trick a HP is likely no match for the RF on..

[Larry Gibson]

Some of us don't think all that "penetration" is needed because we don't do Texas heart shots either.........or "sound" shots..........

Larry Gibson

[Digital Dan]

I let Larry off the hook because unless you catch a boolit with a glove over 1000 yards, you will get damage. I am nasty asking to prove something that can't be done.


Bullets get caught without anything more than rifling engraving and it's not all that new.

[Piedmont]

Yes, from Handloader but NOT 23 gr of 2400. I no longer have the article so please post it as written. Nothing at all was stated as to the alloy, only that it was too soft.
Thompson or Keith, both semi wad cutters.

I have the magazine in my stacks. What is my incentive to prove you wrong on all this? You can't even accept that a Keith bullet is not a Thompson. The alloy WAS listed and was very soft, just as I stated. And it was a vast overload of H2400 in a .44 mag case, just as I stated.

[44man]

I have the magazine in my stacks. What is my incentive to prove you wrong on all this? You can't even accept that a Keith bullet is not a Thompson. The alloy WAS listed and was very soft, just as I stated. And it was a vast overload of H2400 in a .44 mag case, just as I stated.
Because I would like to read it again. It has been many years and I gave away all my old books. I kept many articles but can't find that one. It is hard to go by memory!
I still have a few hundred woodworking rags to go through too, just gets to be too much to keep.
You should see the drawers full of targets! 8-)
But a Thompson is still a semi wad cutter with the shoulder and only small differences like GC's or a change in the GG. Acts exactly like a Keith when shot. If 2400 can do that to a boolit, imagine GD, RD, etc?

[Digital Dan]

Bullets get caught without anything more than rifling engraving and it's not all that new.

Read the book.......or find a snow bank and be patient.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Ware_Mann

[44man]

Read the book.......or find a snow bank and be patient.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Ware_Mann
I don't have his book but will bet internal ballistics will show a change in external ballistics.
Snow would work but any other medium that expands a HP will not show off center rifling or HP collapse. You can't read a fully expanded boolit.

[Piedmont]

Because I would like to read it again. It has been many years and I gave away all my old books. I kept many articles but can't find that one. It is hard to go by memory!
I still have a few hundred woodworking rags to go through too, just gets to be too much to keep.
You should see the drawers full of targets! 8-)

A Thompson would act like a Keith, but it isn't a Keith.
You sound like you genuinely want to be refreshed on the article in question so I have written myself a note on a post-it with the title of this thread and put it with the four stacks of Handloader and Rifle that are upstairs. I know it isn't in the one stack downstairs. Periodically I go through the stacks. It usually takes days because I reread interesting articles. The next time I do I will post what it says, even if I have a particular wrong (which is unlikely because I saw it since you posted that picture the first time and so made a mental note), and will list the magazine date and page number. I don't have a digital camera so you won't be able to read the article, but I'm not a liar and everyone with a stack of Handloaders will be able to easily check the veracity of what I write.

[44man]

Yes, I want to be refreshed since it has been a long time. I would appreciate it. Even a scan mailed to me would be great.

[44man]

That is all great 44man......and I don't see me nor anyone else disagreeing with you. However, just what does anything in the last two posts of yours have to do with the OP (Shuz) question; "Big hole hp vs little hole hp in the .44 mag"?

BTW just to keep my post within the topic of HP'd cast bullets; just in case you missed it the profile of the 429640HP isn't all that different from the one you posted above is it? Perhaps that's why it shoots so well and, given the same velocity, hits just as hard as yours.......that is if it doesn't expand. If it does expand then it hits harder and since I haven't recovered one from game yet I'd say the penetration is more than adequate. So which one is going t kill deer, pigs, bears or elk? Both of them are. You use yours and I'll use mine and Shuz can pick which size HP he wants in his. What a country, eh? So far at least..........

Larry Gibson

107800
Simple, more deformation with the big HP. Forcing cone damage might be too much. Mash the Hp off side and what do you get? Weight is penetration anyway but slow a boolit with massive expansion and forget it. Since the 240 XTP's I showed had less then some of the cast shown, do you expect the cast to drive deeper? The quarter size boolit does not mean it will kill better.
The question was about accuracy anyway so I think I answered that.
it is admiral that you get 4" at 100 with a single shot when I have hundreds of 1/2" at 100 with revolvers.
You can't shoot a 300 gr + at 900 fps either, sorry, does not work. Each boolit needs a velocity and spin and if you go back for years, all you see is a large meplat does not shoot past 50 yards. I believe you said that too. Funny that 500 meters (547 yards) is not too far for them. My best revolver group at the closer 500 yards was 2-1/2", sorry, it was a WLN though.
What exactly do you get at 100 with soft lead? You bring in single shots to the discussion so you stray as much as I do.

[44man]

Take a Keith or Thompson, stick the nose in the muzzle and wiggle it side to side. The nose of either can't align in the cone. Shoulder hits first. Not rocket science.

[Larry Gibson]

44man

No, the question was about comparing the accuracy of different HP sizes and shapes (The OPs question from his 1st post; Have any of you folks compared accuracy of different hollow point sizes and/or shapes? ) The question was not about comparing accuracy between HPs and solid nose SWCs or WFNs. It is you who have taken this thread off on your usual tangent to inspire the rest of us with you superb marksmanship.

"I have hundreds of 1/2" at 100 with revolvers"............."My best revolver group at the closer 500 yards was 2-1/2"

All I can say is wow! Guess I'm just a pogue because the 4" six shot groups at 100 yards I do isn't my best or my worst. It's just what I expect to do. BTW; I get the same accuracy at 100 yards with the same alloys and even harder ones with solid SWCs and WFN cast bullets whether I'm shooting the Ruger or the Contender. Funny for me the HP'd 429244 and 429650s shoot just as well isn't it? But I guess when you're shooting as bad as I do ya just can't tell the difference like you can, eh?

You win. So Shuz, you might as well just send me all your HP moulds because I appreciate them. 44man is obviously right so jump on his bandwagon. BTW; is he saying (The quarter size boolit does not mean it will kill better.) the expanding bullet doesn't kill better?

Larry Gibson

[44man]

My opinion on HP's is that most shoot more accurate then a solid as long as you don't damage them. I can't see a small one or a large one being different unless it slumps more.
No, too much expansion that limits penetration will NOT kill faster plus torn tissue will knit together faster then a clean cut so bleeding stops. Without a balance so you also get penetration, you can get a failure.
Take your big hollow points and shoot a very large animal to see how sad they work, you must climb down from the "energy dump" tree because it sways.108417
Cast accuracy at 100 yards from a TC, scoped off the bench, 30-30, 10" barrel. RCBS boolit. Easy to waste a bucks worth of pennies. 108418Last two .44 rounds I had left, cardboard chicken, 200 meters, 240 HNDY, open sights Creedmore, SBH.
I shot a 40 at the shoot that day, every steel center shot. Aimed lower for the 200 meter chicken, looks like a pin head that far.
When I talk accuracy, I mean ACCURACY!
I shot IHMSA with the best of the best but nobody ever beat me with a revolver. ANY revolver. I would clean 5 shoot off chickens at 200 meters, shoots were won with those. The other 40 had to be taken away first. Bet I could still do it and am almost 77!

[44man]

Notice I did better with the .44 then I did with my Wichita 7R? The 7R would do an average less then 2" at 200 meters. The MOA would do 1" and did 3/8" at 100 for 5 shots. Funny I got that with a TC using cast. Try those things with a rifle!

[Larry Gibson]

So with accuracy like that on silhouettes you've ran 40 out of 40 with boring regularity, right?

Did you hit those pennies with the 1st shot each?

You know I've shot enough test groups over the years of 5 shot and now mostly 10 shots and 10, 15 and 20 shot strings at 300, 500, 600, 800, 900 and 1000 yards to have gotten numerous 2 and even 3 shot "groups", even with consecutive shots, as equally accurate. Guess that puts me up there with you? No, probably not as I was using a rifle......sort of "cheating", eh?

"The MOA would do 1" and did 3/8" at 100 for 5 shots." Like really wow! You really need to go over and join CBA and shoot competition there. You'd really clean their clocks. I've checked the match scores and you'd win hands down, no doubt about it, probably without even trying. Probably even set a worlds record!

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

This is a cast boolit forum...... talking about what one has done with jacketed really doesn't do much for anyone here........ and sarcasm certainly doesn't advance anyone here at all.

[Larry Gibson]

Post deleted.....just not worth the trouble responding........

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Yes Larry, a penny could be hit every shot with cast. The boolit is the 308-165-SIL. I used 4759 powder but forget the amount. I sold the gun to a friend long ago. He doesn't shoot cast.
I won't say more about the other single shots because I did use jacketed with them.
I do get revolvers to shoot as good with cast though, many times better by far. I work a revolver with cast to at least duplicate jacketed.
If you came over and I set you at the bench with any of mine, I assure you, you will hit very small targets. I just made the guns shoot, no matter who is behind the trigger.

[w30wcf]

Thank you to everyone who contributed information to this very interesting discussion with their thoughts. Since I like "stepping back in time" I thought I would share a bit of info....

1890's -
The .45-70 330 gr. Gould H.P. is born. It has been used successfully over all these years and is still offered by Lyman today.
The .44-40 42799 is offered. It is the hollow point version of the 427098. Ideal claims that it increases killing power by 50%(!)

Several decades later -
General Julian Hatcher did some testing that indicated that the larger the meplat the greater the effectiveness.

See......both sides are right ......:drinks: although, in certain situations, one would be better suited than the other, and in other situations, the other would be the better choice....


w30wcf

[Larry Gibson]

Yes Larry, a penny could be hit every shot with cast. The boolit is the 308-165-SIL. I used 4759 powder but forget the amount. I sold the gun to a friend long ago. He doesn't shoot cast.
I won't say more about the other single shots because I did use jacketed with them.
I do get revolvers to shoot as good with cast though, many times better by far. I work a revolver with cast to at least duplicate jacketed.
If you came over and I set you at the bench with any of mine, I assure you, you will hit very small targets. I just made the guns shoot, no matter who is behind the trigger.

My Bad, I thought you were still talking the 44 revolver. "Jacketed bullets".....better watch out you'll get dropped from someone's Christmas card list.........funny how there are several threads currently running mentioning jacketed bullets and only we get "jacked" here for mentioning them by one member in particularly! Anyways that kind of accuracy can be done with the right rifle or handgun and proper cast bullets either HP or solid. Again, my bad, I misunderstood which gun/cartridge you were talking about.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Yeah, cast in a TC 30-30, Could not beat the thing for accuracy but I hate the grips with the finger busting lever.
My others use jacketed, no molds for a 7mm yet.

[bannor]

Hornady jackets have always had a rep for being too thick and tough, with the jhp's not expanding much, unless driven to like 1500 fps+. Frankly, I have my doubts that a dozen deer were lost to such hits, with such damage, on any one piece of property (unless it's the entire state of Montana). :-)

[Larry Gibson]

Yeah, cast in a TC 30-30, Could not beat the thing for accuracy but I hate the grips with the finger busting lever.
...........

I know just what you mean; when I was testing a lot of magnum loads in my 44 Contender I wrapped my "finger" with a thick pad of gauze and tape......helped some........:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[LAH]

A piece of foam & tape for the back of the square back SBH worked for me.

[RobS]

The way I see it is.............if the gun shoots accurately (what is consider accurate and at determined distance for said individual) with whatever velocity/pressure desired and and with whatever alloy needed for the terminal effect on game then it's a win. I work alloy and BHN hardness to shoot accurately first and then to suit my needs for terminal effect. I've used soft boolits, hard boolits and shallow HP's, deep HP's, large HP's and small HP's which are all particular to needs required.

Throw another pinch in here and a person could cast a water quenched 50/50 WW to soft PB boolit that is HP'd and then come back and set the boolits upright in a pan of water and anneal the noses with a torch to create another viable boolit. This alternative could make a difference if the nose was a small HP or a large HP (may want to go one director or the the other regards to adding more WW or straight lead)............and the variables go on and on. What I'm trying to say here is if it's accurate for what a person needs, with whatever alloy/BHN and creates the terminal effect desired with whatever boolit nose profile in question (LFN, WFN, SWC, RN, RB, large HP, Small HP, deep HP, shallow HP, etc) then a person has managed to find what "they need".

I'm a person who is after accuracy and will look at creating terminal effect desired around such and it doesn't matter if I'm shooting a harder boolit, a softer one, a hollow point or not as long as the end result is what I'm after.


The original poster wanted to know if a large HP or a small HP is best and this is totally determined on distance of game being hunted, caliber being used, boolit design, velocity/pressures desired, the alloy being used, what said individual is considering "accurate" for him or her and the terminal effect wanted on game which could be thin skinned critters to larger, thicker skinned critters. Of course then you have the many other variables involved regards to accuracy of a load such as load development, reloading procedures and firearm used to name a few.

There are others who have done "it" one way and some the other but the only way to know is to do it yourself while using the guided readings of these individuals as a means to learn and develop your own path. I started out many years ago as a water quenched WW nut job relying on the meplat of the boolit to do the work and through time I've progressed to utilizing, when needed, HP's of various natures to do the work intended for certain applications. I find it's not an all or nothing proposition really and go the direction that suits my needs.

[Piedmont]

107834 I showed this before, notice what a Keith can turn into if soft? What is actually exiting your muzzle? Why not start with the right boolit shape first?
What did Elmer's boolit look like? Pure with some tin. bet they slumped!

OK folks, there was some discussion back and forth with 44man and myself, which you can reread, or not. I told him I would post the real story behind that bullet, though I thought I already knew it, when I got my hands on the original article. It is here in front of me now. It is from Handloader 133 May-June 1988 page 32 and is 6 pages long. The author is A. G. Anderson and the title is Casting Alloys: Softer Can Be Better. I will paraphrase the story of that bullet that slumped.

He acquired the mold directly from Ray Thompson in 1957 with the instructions to load a maximum of 23.0 grains H2400 and cast bullets of 1-30. Anderson was shooting the maximum load over a frozen lake. They walked to their backstop or maybe a snowbank in snow shoes but when he found some of his bullets he didn't recognize them. They had shortened and changed shape (see photo). He reduced his load to 21.5 grains of H2400 and used an alloy of 1-16. He found these did not slump. He said he had no sooner done this than he got an urgent message from Mr. Thompson telling him to reduce the load to 21.5 grains and increase the hardness to 1-16. The Thompsons weighed 263 grains when 1-30 ready to go with gas check and lube.

For those who don't know, Elmer Keith used his 250 grain Keith bullet with 22.0 grains of H2400 with a standard, not magnum, primer and his alloy was 1-16. So I don't think Elmer's bullets slumped, no matter what 44man thinks.

[44man]

Thank you Piedmont, what I was trying to remember. Yes, more tin can toughen a boolit.
Elmer knew what he was doing and I never use a mag primer in the .44 either, even with 296, the powder does not need them.
Trouble today is the cost of tin so WW's work cheaper.
If you oven harden 50-50 to 18 or 20 BHN and use a GC, they shoot decent without ruining the ductile properties but put a HP on them and they disassemble a deer.
I used the 429421 and 22 gr of 2400 in 1956 myself, original Lyman mold for it.
The 240 XTP opens too fast and is better suited to a .44 special. I don't want cast to do the same.
I still love a HP but the alloy must be right. Only way I find out is to shoot animals.

[45 2.1]

Throw another pinch in here and a person could cast a water quenched 50/50 WW to soft PB boolit that is HP'd and then come back and set the boolits upright in a pan of water and anneal the noses with a torch to create another viable boolit.

The 50/50 WW/Pb water dropped with HP works fine as is. A lot of deer and varmints have fallen to it.


Trouble today is the cost of tin so WW's work cheaper.
If you oven harden 50-50 to 18 or 20 BHN and use a GC, they shoot decent without ruining the ductile properties but put a HP on them and they disassemble a deer.
I still love a HP but the alloy must be right. Only way I find out is to shoot animals.

WW and a Pb/tin alloy do different things.... they are not the same in performance. 50/50 WW/Pb alloy water drops to that BHN range. That works well in the magnum handgun performance area. Handguns with less power available should be either drawn to a softer BHN range or use the alloy air cooled. Big boomers need for the operator who uses HPs to put the boolit someplace where it works properly (not in the shoulder either) or use a solid if the animal is thick enough for it to actually work and not expend it's energy in the hillside beyond. A lot of people already know these things and they work fine due to a lot of actual hunting and testing.

[RobS]

The 50/50 WW/Pb water dropped with HP works fine as is. A lot of deer and varmints have fallen to it.

Yes I know and the point I was making is that there are many variables. And another take the same 50/50 WW to straight lead alloy and water quench a solid and then come back and do the torch annealing to the nose. Why...............because accuracy may call for the body of the boolit to be harder but a person wants the softer nose for expansion etc.

[44man]

Both of you are so correct, I need say no more. Hard for drive bands and some upset of the nose really is needed in some calibers. Mr. deer is the test facility.
I did not hunt with those that need the treatment last season because I had no time left.
How fast can you blink? The year is half over and soon it will be hunting season again. I have nothing done.
How in the world did I do so much when I had to go to work every day?

[45 2.1]

How in the world did I do so much when I had to go to work every day?

The only answer I can come up is younger with more energy because I had the same question you've stated before....... and it doesn't seem to get better either.

[Shuz]

Late last month I decided to modify some MP-431-256 regular point boolits by sizing with the tapered hp pin Miha furnishes with his MP-433-300 moulds. While not quite as big a hole as the Lyman Devastator, the enlarged boolits are visually much bigger than the regular hp.
The boolits were cast at the same time out of an alloy that tests Saeco 5, because I'm shooting 8.3g of Green Dot and wished to keep the velocity and recoil down without leading the bbls. Cutting to the chase.....I fired 5 shot gps out of 2 different .44 mag revolvers, and each time the enlarged hp "groups" were nearly twice the size of the regular hp groups. (2.3" vs 4.3")

One of the guns used is a super accurate 629-3 Classic DX with a 5" bbl and a Leupold 4X EER scope, and the other is a relatively new Ruger Bisley KRBS-43N with a 3-3/4" bbl and open sights. The rounds fired from the Bisley averaged 963fps with an SD of 12 and the rounds fired from the 629-3 averaged 983fps with sd's of 8 and 13.
I plan on conducting this trial again within the next few days and will enter another .44mag or two to see if the results are the same. By the way, the bbls of both guns showed absolutely no leading.
Have any of you folks compared accuracy of different hollow point sizes and/or shapes?

The saga continues........The other day, I ran the same 'speriment with the same 629-3 Classic DX with 4x Leupold, but I also ran the same 'speriment with a 629-4 Mtn Gun and a Ruger KS 45N. The results were the same as before. Groups were 5 shots at 25 yds from a rest, and all groups fired with the "enlarged hole" hollow point were at least twice the size of the groups fired with the regular sized hole from the MP mould. I would like someone who has the MP-433-300 HP top punch to try enlarging the holes of their 429421HP's or other hp's and see if they get the same results. Methinks, Tatume nailed it with the concentricity issue with my sizing set up.

[44man]

The saga continues........The other day, I ran the same 'speriment with the same 629-3 Classic DX with 4x Leupold, but I also ran the same 'speriment with a 629-4 Mtn Gun and a Ruger KS 45N. The results were the same as before. Groups were 5 shots at 25 yds from a rest, and all groups fired with the "enlarged hole" hollow point were at least twice the size of the groups fired with the regular sized hole from the MP mould. I would like someone who has the MP-433-300 HP top punch to try enlarging the holes of their 429421HP's or other hp's and see if they get the same results. Methinks, Tatume nailed it with the concentricity issue with my sizing set up.
I have doubts and still go with upset at the cone. No structure at the cone, easy to mash a side in. Wobble city.

[gtgeorge]

I just dialed my 305gr MP HP's in at a little over 1700fps and didn't get any slumping and accuracy was good at 65 yards. Haven't had a chance to test them on hogs yet but will be in the woods in 6 weeks and 3 days. And what is this forcing cone and slump y'all are speaking of? Is that the little plastic skirt that is on them to make them fit in my 50 cal. :bigsmyl2:

[44man]

I just dialed my 305gr MP HP's in at a little over 1700fps and didn't get any slumping and accuracy was good at 65 yards. Haven't had a chance to test them on hogs yet but will be in the woods in 6 weeks and 3 days. And what is this forcing cone and slump y'all are speaking of? Is that the little plastic skirt that is on them to make them fit in my 50 cal. :bigsmyl2:
We are not talking the same things at all. What is the "plastic skirt" you mentioned?

[bannor]

A lot of deer and varmints have fallen to the .22lr, too, so that argument means nothing, taken by itself.

[gtgeorge]

We are not talking the same things at all. What is the "plastic skirt" you mentioned?
Yep I know it was off topic as well but the skirt I referred to was a sabot to shoot the 44 boolits in my 50 cal ML. I don't have the revolver yet since I went with the 41 first but is on my list and why i follow these discussions.

Should I be experiencing this slumping with the 41 HP boolits I am shooting? I will be able to retrieve my boolits when I get around to dismantling the latest hay roll for those that do not hit another bullet will be exactly as fired. At least the last 3 rolls preserved thousands of bullets as fired.

[44man]

Yep I know it was off topic as well but the skirt I referred to was a sabot to shoot the 44 boolits in my 50 cal ML. I don't have the revolver yet since I went with the 41 first but is on my list and why i follow these discussions.

Should I be experiencing this slumping with the 41 HP boolits I am shooting? I will be able to retrieve my boolits when I get around to dismantling the latest hay roll for those that do not hit another bullet will be exactly as fired. At least the last 3 rolls preserved thousands of bullets as fired.
I don't think so. The revolver is a different critter. You can do a lot with single shots and rifles that you can't get away with in a revolver.
I was funning you over the sabot, it will protect your boolit pretty good.

[SSGOldfart]

Humm Larry quick question is the 429640HP "Devastator" a plain base or GC ???

[gtgeorge]

I don't think so. The revolver is a different critter. You can do a lot with single shots and rifles that you can't get away with in a revolver.
I was funning you over the sabot, it will protect your boolit pretty good.
I figured as much on the single shot approach. I have fired and recovered many full power HP boolits from .357 and have yet to find one that showed any slump or other forcing cone damage. I have just added the 41 and may add a 44 before this roll gets disassembled for recovery.

I will say that your challenge to catch a HP bullet is doable with rolls of hay. I was shocked the first time I shot one and found I can't find anything that makes it through. But even more interesting is the fact that the bullets are slowed down and not deformed and are caught by strands of straw folded over the tips. Even 7mm mag SST's doing 3K are found with straw folded over the nylon tips with no bullet damage or tip damage. Nothing has made it further than 1/2 way through so far.

[LAH]

I see some hay in my future. Have you shot square bales?

[Shuz]

Humm Larry quick question is the 429640HP "Devastator" a plain base or GC ???
Lyman's 429640HP is a gas check designed mould, however I have one that has been modified to cast a plain based boolit that I use in my revolters, and save the original gc version for the 444 Marlin.

[gtgeorge]

Nope and pretty sure the bales are not tight enough. I found out by accident with the rolls since I had one for a target for arrows. I put some steel plates behind it and sighted in a .357 with no exits and have tried everything I own since then. I keep the steel plates there for a what if but so far no bullets have made it out and I have been using them for years changing them out about once a year. Most people would get several years out of one as they hold a lot of bullets.

It is however a pain in the but retrieving the old ones as many are encapsulated in hay clumps.

[Larry Gibson]

Humm Larry quick question is the 429640HP "Devastator" a plain base or GC ???

It is a GC.

Larry Gibson

[LAH]

I may try a couple square bales to see what happens. I surely don't want to unroll a round bale.

[44man]

Hay sounds good, ship them to kalifornia for feed when done! :bigsmyl2:

[Larry Gibson]

Might read this thread; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?120786-44Mag-boolit-hog-smackdown!

204 pigs with both styles can't be wrong.

Larry Gibson

[Shuz]

Thanks Larry, Nice articles. I too like the Lyman Devastator. Works great!

[44man]

Seen a large boar shot in FLA. Stopped it but when we were picked up several hours later, the boar was still alive. 240 gr XTP that was recovered. Everyone was afraid of the animal and some danced around to shoot it in the head. Real funny! A boar laying on the ground, breathing and kicking with some missing the head.

[Larry Gibson]

I once killed an old cow elk that had 3 healed over bullet wounds and 2 healed over arrow wounds. All that proved is she had a tenacity for life and they were all bad shots......I wasn't.

Larry Gibson