lube groove vs tumble (miroc groove)?

[silverback13]

what are the pros and cons of the conventional lube groove vs. the tumble (micro groove) bullet designs?

doe sizing affect the tumble groove bullet?

[GhostHawk]

First off I'm new here, so I'd take anything I say with a huge grain of salt.

I did recently start casting for 7.62 Mosin Nagant and a 7.62 Yugo SKS.

All 3 slugged .312 so I chose a lee .312 in 155 and 185 grain. Both have the lube grooves.

Way I see it, if I choose, I can use alox tumble lube with my lube grooves. But your not going to get much Carnube Red lube in those Tumble lube grooves.

So for me it was a matter of options. Not knowing for sure what i'm going to want to try, it seemed the traditional lube groove design gave me more options.

And yes one of those is Paper Patching, and yes I'm "struggling" but enjoying the heck out of it.
Have yet to shoot any, but headed to the range today. HHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRAAAAAAAAAYYYY!

[TXGunNut]

TL is Lee's method of applying lube quickly, easily, cheaply. IMHO it works quite well in many applications. I generally use it for handgun loads but have more than a few rifle loads that use it as well. TL is a system using shallow grooves in the boolit design, Lee Liquid Alox for lube, and an inexpensive push-thru sizer that mounts on a loading press. The TL system gets you started shooting CB's faster and cheaper than conventional lube grooves. As with any design minimal sizing is best. One mistake many people make with LLA is they use too much and it gets sticky. It actually takes very little LLA to do the job. Recluse has a refinement of Lee's furmula that many here prefer.
Conventional lube grooves allow the use of a greater variety of lubes and boolit uses. IMHO blackpowder requires conventional lube grooves and blackpowder lube. Some higher velocity cartridge loads do better with conventional lube and lube grooves. Most of the old classic and modern boolit designs use conventional grooves so if you want to use them you'll probably eventually need to invest in a lubrisizer although other methods exist for limited applications. Some boolits with conventional lube grooves work just fine with LLA and a Lee push-thru sizer. If the boolit doesn't require sizing you may be able to dip, pan lube or simply apply lube wth your fingers.
For more info on TL read Richard Lee's "Modern Reloading". Some of his methods are a bit controversial. I learned a good bit from his manual even though I'd been loading for 30 years before I read it.
Some folks dislike Lee but when it comes to being innovative and inexpensive he's hard to beat.

[silverback13]

Sorry should have been more specific. I am interested right now in hand gun and lever gun use for same bullet. 45 colt to be specific.

[TXGunNut]

I use boolits of both designs for 45 Colt revolvers. My high-velocity hunting loads use a heavy Ranch Dog TL GC design in a Ruger Blackhawk and my blackpowder loads for Colts and replicas use a traditional boolit design. For a smokeless plinker load I'd use a plainbase TL boolit to keep it simple & cheap to produce plinker quantities. Any load I use for my revolvers will work fine in my 94 Trapper.

[HeavyMetal]

Back in the early 70's I tried tumble lube with LLA long before Lee made molds with Micro grooves.

I found that it does "work" most of the time but that it was messy, time consuming ( as in dry times) and I would have to clean my seater die ( a lot) more often.

As I moved away from 38 and 45 low pressure rounds and moved up to High pressure stuff, 44 mag, 357 30-30, I found it just did not provide me with a better lube system.

Enter the Lee TL molds, originally cast and shoot as cast, but tolerances were all over the place and the "apperance" of Lee's push through sizing dies happened "for those who just had to size cast bullets".

Just for grins I tried to size a micro groove casting and you don't have a lot of play with as cast diameter, those little grooves can go away fast if you have the wrong combo of mold and sizer.

The TL ideas is a good one on paper but doesn't always "fill the bill" in some guns.

Now that I've "whined" lets talk about youe specific needs;

Your buying or have bought a rifle in 45 colt, correct?

TL may be a start point for you and I'll suggest a Mold in a round flat nose design, it does not have to be a Micro groove design, and with conventional lube groove you can switch up in the future.

I'd stay away from a Gas Check design, no need for one at 45 Colt velocities, and I'd check out NOE, Mihec, Mountain Molds, and every other custom mold maker that is in our vender section before I spent money on a mold.

I'd also go to Hollowpointmold.com and look through his gallery as well as his for sale section, you may find a nice used Lyman or RCBS RF design in his stuff, he may HP a new Lee DC cavity for you, if you want an HP.

Lots of good stuff these days, not like the 60's and 70's where your choice was Lyman or Lee or go home!

[guncheese]

funny you should ask
ive been messing with powder coating
and find that the TL bullets may just work out better
and they sure are good lookin

107333

[silverback13]

I have gone to just one load revolver and lever load 45 colt that I shoot almost all the time.

I do have a 22lr revolvers and marlin 39a's and a shotgun (I have my loads cover for the shotgun).

my SHTF guns are the vepr 308 and glock 22 . I have tons of .308 and 40 so I wouldn't be reloading for them until I get a ton of 45 colt stocked up.



so mainly looking at ranch dog tlc 454-290fn for revolver and rossi lever.

I have also looked at the http://www.bayoubullets.net/.

like the idea of quick easy cheap. I plan on one or two 45 colt bullet designs and set my loads to or just below SAMI specs for 45 colt (non ruger/TC loads) and crank'em out. I wan to spend more time shooting. Looking for decent ,not sniper accuracy, with a bullet that packs a punch.

[Maven]

sb13, As has already been mentioned, the tumble lube concept is workable, but not perfect. However, the idea of casting CB's, swishing them around in liquid alox or something similar, letting them dry, and loading them outweighs their lack of "perfection." Not having to or choosing not to size CB's is a huge time saver in my view. Now, as to actual performance: I used the 2 cavity TL-240-SWC in my Ruger SBH with a 10.5" bbl. (8grs. Unique) and found it to be accurate, but other normal grease groove designs were more so. However, that CB cast no more than .429" whereas my gun prefers something a bit larger. I.e., it wasn't the TL idea per se that was the problem, but how well it fitted my gun. At .430" or .431" it would have shot as well as my other CB's. Lastly, the max. velocity I tried before accuracy degraded and forcing cone leading appeared was 1,050fps (chronographed). In short, tumble lube designs work, but bullet fit and velocity are limiting factors.

[texassako]

Basically, just remember you can tumble lube any bullet, but it is tough to use traditional lube on a tumble lube bullet. My tumble lube bullets worked better when I switched from LLA to 50/50, and then to my version of 45/45/10. I have a couple of handgun calibers I only have TL designs for, and they shoot well enough tumble lubed that I am not tempted to look for a traditional design. One of the best SWC's in .357 Mag for me is Lee's TL design as well. I have not had that kind of luck in rifles, but that has been a fit issue more than lube groove design. The designs that fit the rifles and shot the best had traditional grooves, but I shoot some of them tumble lubed.

[62chevy]

Great question as I had the same last year when I started. Much research told me that a mold from Lee would drop bigger with standard lube groves than a tumble lube mold would. went with the standard groves for that reason alone as I TL everything, .308, 45 and .380. I want a SBH in 45 colt so now I know the mold I have should fit with no problems. Not max loading so TL works fine for me.

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

I don't see an advantage to micro groove boolits for tumble lubing. I tumble lube all mine.

[Elkins45]

I have found that tumble lubing unsized TL boolets gives good results more often than not. My first TL mold was the 430-240 and it still is the best shooter in my model 29 all the way up to max velocity.

Honestly, if it doesn't work how much are you really out? $30? You just might be surprised.

[spfd1903]

I was certainly confused by tumble lube vs lube groove designs when I started casting. There were a few designs that I wanted to try that were only TL, so gave them a try. Have found that most of the TL types will drop with the diameter I need, and do not require sizing. If a particular alloy does drop a TL that is really oversize, you can substantially flatten the grooves when sizing. Rarely happens. I make my own lithium grease/beeswax lube and sometimes pan lube. 44 Mag and, 45 Colt. Have never had leading in any pistol or rifle. Not really interested in putting out money for a Lubri-sizer and the hardware that goes with it. If I found a box of those components at a garage sale I might give them a try. We sure have a lot of options!

[higgins]

I started shooting an unsized lube groove design bullet (429244) coated with LLA in a microgroove barrel because it dropped from the mold about the size I would want to size it to, and I didn't have a sizing die large enough. I seat the gas check before applying the tumble lube. Results have been good in the microgroove rifle barrel; I haven't yet tried them in a handgun with conventional rifling.

[bangerjim]

I shoot the same boolits (160-300gn), many of them TL grooved, out of 4 different 45 revolvers and long guns with great accuracy! I PC everything now. The TL grooves seem to fill in almost like the straight no groove boolits I also cast. When sized, the sides are pretty much smooth, with the micro grooves being noticeable. With PC, there is not smoke from burning lube grease and, best of all.....NEVER ANY LEADING!

Shoot away!

bangerjim

[243winxb]

Tumble lube before and after sizing. http://leeprecision.net/support/index.php?/Knowledgebase/List/Index/13/product-support