How fast can you push a soft alloy?

[andym79]

Hi guys I tend to use a Hardball alloy for my cast bullets 2/6/92!

As money is getting tighter, I am looking to use a softer alloy for most of my shooting. Using Quickload a lot of my most accurate loads in the 30-30 are with pressures in the 20-26K region!

How fast or more importantly how much pressure can an alloy of say 9, 10, 11 or 12 BHN take?

Are obuturation pressure tables that I have seen listed minimums or maximum (if the later I may have a problem) for sealing?

Do you guys shoot soft alloys in the 1500-1900fps region in your 30-30?

[dubber123]

Been tinkering with 9 bhn. alloy in my .35 Remington, a few sub 1" groups at 50 yards so far with iron sights, velocity is close to 2,200 fps. Bore condition will have something to do with how fast you can go. The bore is smooth in this gun, but shot noticeably cleaner after firelapping it.

I have yet to try it, but I believe many on here shoot the same alloy to full velocity in their 30-30's.

[largom]

The alloy I use is 50% wheel weights and 50% pure with about 2 % tin added. I shoot this in everything from 22 cal. to 45-70. Velocity ranges from 1800 to 2200. I use Felix lube and have fire lapped all of my barrels. Boolit fit and a smooth barrel are important.

Larry

[zuke]

I'm gonna try pure lead in my Martini Henry soon. Paper patched it should handle it well.

[MtGun44]

I have no problem using 8 BHN range scrap for full power .357 Mag and .44 Mag loads
with no gas checks needed, either.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50446&d=1244513448

Bill

[Outpost75]

In my 66" twist .50 Cal. Patched roundball muzzleloader, I shoot PURE soft lead, patched balls with 120 grs. Of FFg "Holy Black" for about 2200 fps from a 40" barrel. Shoots 1-1/2" groups at 50 yards and drops deer better than a .30-30!

[John Boy]

Bhn 15.3 works for me in my 30-30 ...
* got the 0.700" setting for the 500m rams - (an approximate 7 inch, 5 shot group on the 500m swinger per my spotter) and then downed 1 ram ... no more rounds

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?168244-30-30-Maximum-Distance-With-Accuracy&p=1884028&viewfull=1#post1884028

Have since reloaded the same recipe (Bhn 15.3) in the 30-30 and have settings for all the silhouettes: 200m to 500m

[leadman]

The answer from me is "depends". I have several guns that shoot soft alloys well and others that don't. Did you notice the comments on the smooth, firelapped bores?
Also lube is important, notice the use of LBT Blue in the photo. Coating with powdered paint or Hi-Tek polymer paint can "cheat" the physics of the obutruation of soft alloys. My theory at least.
The burning rate of the powder also effects the success of shooting an alloy boolit, whether hard or soft.

[MBTcustom]

Ya gotta get all your ducks in a row, but you can shoot pretty soft stuff about as fast as lead will go.
I have pushed 50/50 boolits that were dropped on the bench and measured 8BHN to 2400fps.
I had the right cartridge (358Winchester) the right lube (FWFL) the right mold (RCBS 35-200-FN) the right powder, and the right twist and barrel length (1-14, 24" long).
You just have to work it up one step at a time.

Be aware though, that if you intend to hunt, you might be setting yourself up for a.....shall we say "eye opening experience?"
See the link in my signature line.

[jonp]

I have no problem using 8 BHN range scrap for full power .357 Mag and .44 Mag loads
with no gas checks needed, either.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50446&d=1244513448

Bill

that is indeed a full power load. In fact, it is over max by better than 1gr. You know your gun and have worked it up, however

[andym79]

Be aware though, that if you intend to hunt, you might be setting yourself up for a.....shall we say "eye opening experience?"
See the link in my signature line.

I have long been a firm believer that the cast bullet is a better projectile for stopping ability! That photo just adds weight to the argument!

I guess I will just have to works loads up like any other! This time I may start with a previously successful load for by Hardball projectiles, and see how well it goes with softer, softer still and really soft projectiles!

[6bg6ga]

I have no problem using 8 BHN range scrap for full power .357 Mag and .44 Mag loads
with no gas checks needed, either.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50446&d=1244513448

Bill

Bill,

Do you have a measured speed for that load?

[MtGun44]

No I have not chronoed it, and it is NOT over the max. Hodgdon's site lists
16.7 as the max for a 158 gr J-bullet, and IME cast has lower pressures and higher
velocities, in mag pistols, at least. That particular boolit runs about 168 gr., so I
backed off a bit because my boolit is a hair heavier than the jbullet
the data is for. I consider it a max load even though there are no pressure
signs whatsoever.

Hodgdon reports the 16.7 gr load with a 158 XTP as 1,591 fps. From my 6"
revolver, I imagine it is less - but not sure how much less - still a pretty fast load.
I think it shows that a good design, with a good lube and properly fit does not
need a hard alloy to work all the way to max pressures in magnum revolvers.

Bill

[6bg6ga]

No I have not chronoed it, and it is NOT over the max. Hodgdon's site lists
16.7 as the max for a 158 gr J-bullet, and IME cast has lower pressures and higher
velocities, in mag pistols, at least. That particular boolit runs about 168 gr., so I
backed off a bit because my boolit is a hair heavier than the jbullet
the data is for. I consider it a max load even though there are no pressure
signs whatsoever.

Hodgdon reports the 16.7 gr load with a 158 XTP as 1,591 fps. From my 6"
revolver, I imagine it is less - but not sure how much less - still a pretty fast load.
I think it shows that a good design, with a good lube and properly fit does not
need a hard alloy to work all the way to max pressures in magnum revolvers.

Bill


I wasn't even thinking that it was over max I was just curious as the the FPS. I know I can always count on your info as a guide to go on. I had hoped to learn more from you as I start to push loads further. I have always loaded below the maximum simply because I didn't want to lead the barrel up.

[williamwaco]

Andy,

Perhaps you are getting the idea?

HARDCAST is way overrated.

For the cartridge/speed you are asking about almost any scrap alloy will be fine.

I tend to use around BNH 12 because that is about what COWWs produce. All I add is about half ounce of tin to a pot.

I have pushed .357 magnums to 1700 from rifles with range scrap that measured 8 to 9 BNH.

[MtGun44]

6bg6ga -
You didn't say anything about max but there was a comment that the load was
1 grain (!!) over max, which is not correct. I know a lot of different experience
levels of loaders will be potentially reading this and I do not want to leave the
impression that I would load way over the book loads, and wanted to sketch
out how I came to select that as my personal max.

I think the comment on the LBT soft blue lube is on the mark, too. I have found
that LBT soft blue, NRA 50-50 and another lube from .357 Max here that I call
Red Max (sadly nearly out of it) are excellent lubes and support hot loads with
moderate to soft alloys in magnums without any leading or systematic accuracy
issues. By that I mean - not all loads with these lubes are winners in the accuracy
dept, but NONE have ever leaded a bore for me.

As William says - hardcast is way overrated. Not that it won't work, but I object
to the old wive's tale that you MUST HAVE ~23+ BHN to load a magnum pistol to full power.
This is clearly not the case. I have no doubt that some individual guns may perform
better with harder alloys, but I have not run into this in my testing of hard boolits.
Occasionally harder shoots well, often it shoots less accurately, I have not been able
to establish any sort of a pattern myself with my guns. I am perfectly willing to
listen to folks that have found best accuracy with harder alloys, I would never say it
is not the case for some guns and some loads. I just disagree that hard alloys are
an absolute requirement for either accuracy or to avoid leading with magnum pistol
rounds - which brings us finally back to the original poster's question, which seemed
to be following the old wive's tale that there is some magical, mystical lower limit
that you cannot exceed. Perhaps 8 BHN is getting close to a lower limit - I didn't
really do this as scientific test other than I had a bunch of soft range lead and wanted
to see if it would be OK in my magnum loads. To little time and perhaps not enough
curiosity to cast these of pure lead and see what they do - BUT, I have case a
HP version of this in nearly pure lead and loaded to "hot .38 Spl levels" without any
leading.

Here is the result of that test.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52430&d=1307446037

I have probably only shot 60-100 rounds of this thru a S&W 342 in testing for POI/POA issues and
recoil, leading and finally expansion - but they were cast of the softest alloy I had which is supposed
to be pure - it was from new plumbers lead ingots, have not actually tested the hardness but no hints
of leading in the little J-frame.

Bill

[tazman]

No I have not chronoed it, and it is NOT over the max. Hodgdon's site lists
16.7 as the max for a 158 gr J-bullet, and IME cast has lower pressures and higher
velocities, in mag pistols, at least. That particular boolit runs about 168 gr., so I
backed off a bit because my boolit is a hair heavier than the jbullet
the data is for. I consider it a max load even though there are no pressure
signs whatsoever.
Bill

Not to get into a peeing match, but the most recent Lyman manual shows a max load of H110 for that boolit(358429) to be 15.0 grains with a pressure of 40900cup.
The 9th edition Hornady manual lists h110 max load at 15.6 for their 158gr XTP

MTgun44 is quite right about the softer alloys working. I have been using range scrap and getting better groups and less leading than I was with lino.

[JeffinNZ]

1700fps with 40-1 alloy in my .30-30 is no problem providing I use a Hornady gas check. Alum checks and the groups open up. Load is 22gr Benchmark.

[35remington]

If anybody can give assurance as to proper judgement, it is MtGun. If he says the load is workable and has produced no problems, and he says he has other data references that show it is acceptable......believe it.

Also.....keep in mind the 358429 has considerable bullet length and weight forward of the case mouth (much more so than a 158 jacketed HP or SP) lowering loading density and pressures. A lot of the bullet's weight is sitting in the throat of the revolver, not in the case.

H110/W296 data has also varied quite considerably, and CUP/psi measurements shade the issue a bit.

[6bg6ga]

6bg6ga -
You didn't say anything about max but there was a comment that the load was
1 grain (!!) over max, which is not correct. I know a lot of different experience
levels of loaders will be potentially reading this and I do not want to leave the
impression that I would load way over the book loads, and wanted to sketch
out how I came to select that as my personal max.

I think the comment on the LBT soft blue lube is on the mark, too. I have found
that LBT soft blue, NRA 50-50 and another lube from .357 Max here that I call
Red Max (sadly nearly out of it) are excellent lubes and support hot loads with
moderate to soft alloys in magnums without any leading or systematic accuracy
issues. By that I mean - not all loads with these lubes are winners in the accuracy
dept, but NONE have ever leaded a bore for me.

As William says - hardcast is way overrated. Not that it won't work, but I object
to the old wive's tale that you MUST HAVE ~23+ BHN to load a magnum pistol to full power.
This is clearly not the case. I have no doubt that some individual guns may perform
better with harder alloys, but I have not run into this in my testing of hard boolits.
Occasionally harder shoots well, often it shoots less accurately, I have not been able
to establish any sort of a pattern myself with my guns. I am perfectly willing to
listen to folks that have found best accuracy with harder alloys, I would never say it
is not the case for some guns and some loads. I just disagree that hard alloys are
an absolute requirement for either accuracy or to avoid leading with magnum pistol
rounds - which brings us finally back to the original poster's question, which seemed
to be following the old wive's tale that there is some magical, mystical lower limit
that you cannot exceed. Perhaps 8 BHN is getting close to a lower limit - I didn't
really do this as scientific test other than I had a bunch of soft range lead and wanted
to see if it would be OK in my magnum loads. To little time and perhaps not enough
curiosity to cast these of pure lead and see what they do - BUT, I have case a
HP version of this in nearly pure lead and loaded to "hot .38 Spl levels" without any
leading.

Here is the result of that test.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52430&d=1307446037

I have probably only shot 60-100 rounds of this thru a S&W 342 in testing for POI/POA issues and
recoil, leading and finally expansion - but they were cast of the softest alloy I had which is supposed
to be pure - it was from new plumbers lead ingots, have not actually tested the hardness but no hints
of leading in the little J-frame.

Bill

I certainly didn't make any comments about the load being 1 grain over max. Heck, I don't recall seeing it but then again its early and I haven't had a cup of coffee yet.

I think someone has commented about a particular reloading book stating a max load which may or may not agree with the load you posted. I can remember looking thru some of my dad's old reloading books that show loads that are over what some of the current loads show in todays books. All I can think of when one comes across something like this is what dad used to say and that was to look for pressure signs...primer, case, ease of ejecting the case and so forth.

Like I mentioned before I will use a load you have worked up and not have any problem or question about using it. Thanks for your info as usual.

[6bg6ga]

Quote:
think the comment on the LBT soft blue lube is on the mark, too. I have found
that LBT soft blue, NRA 50-50 and another lube from .357 Max here that I call
Red Max (sadly nearly out of it) are excellent lubes and support hot loads with
moderate to soft alloys in magnums without any leading or systematic accuracy
issues. By that I mean - not all loads with these lubes are winners in the accuracy
dept, but NONE have ever leaded a bore for me.

In your opinion what velocities are safe for the NRA 50/50 lead? I still have a year or two's supply of some I made up to use up.

[fredj338]

Not in a 30-30 but in 45-70, works fine @ 1500fps.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/DSC_0041.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/DSC_0041.jpg.html)

[MtGun44]

I have had no complaints at 1750 fps in a .45 70 Marlin with NRA 50-50,
BUT that boolit has a GC on it.

It seems fine at full magnum pistol velocities, normal stuff - not necessarily
the .454 Casull and such, I have no experience with these super magnums,
much higher pressures and velocities than I am using, so no info beyond the
1350-1500 range seen in .44 Mags and .357 Mags.

The other interesting thing, at least for me, is that I find no need at all for
GCs in mag pistols with the good designs and good lubes. I use GCs in
rifles, but have not found any need or noticeable advantage with GCs in
pistols, so I have quit using the few GC molds that I have. One of the
advantages claimed by some is that they can use softer alloys with GCs
for hunting and get expansion in .357 and .44 Mag. Well, I can get
soft alloys that will expand without GCs in .357 and .44 Mag with good
accy and no leading. Elmer kept making this same point, and I have to
say that my experience agrees with his. I wonder how the old lubes were
compared to the more modern mixes? And some of the really smart
folks are mixing up even newer and better lubes here, probably will
make it even greater margins for avoiding GCs and keeping your bore
clean.

By the way - any info on what is happening with the site? I couldn't
finish a post on this thread yesterday, and then couldn't get to the
site all last night.

Bill

[sthwestvictoria]

This is something I am looking into. However i am having some forum issues and can't log in from computer to add pictures. I am able to type this on smart phone.
I shot a 3/4 inch group with 35 whelen using oven heat treated WW . Without changing anything other than alloy i shot a 50:50 air cooled for 2 3/4 inch group and air cooled straight WW for 2 inches. I was amazed how much the groups opened up with softer alloys.
When the forum issues improve I'llpost images.

[sthwestvictoria]

Some of the forum server issues seem to be improving, I could post this and look at the site from my windows computer but could not use the castboolit picture loader. I had to use tinypics to load the photographs:

This is something I have been working on - I have an lovely accurate load with oven heat treated COWW, 2%tin:
http://i57.tinypic.com/106ye8n.jpg
and yesterday I shot these two groups, trying to arrive at a softer alloy for hunting:
http://i59.tinypic.com/2me8uf9.jpg
Apart from changing the alloy, everything about the load - primer, neck sized cases, same 42.0grains AR2206H (H4895), same OAL, same lube, same .358 sized, same gun, same range. The only difference and a reason to re-shoot the groups was some sun in the eyes at that time of day. There was a scope point of aim adjustment between the top target and lower two groups.
The Air cooled WW group is acceptable for hunting at a 2" group 100metres however I was impressed how much of a departure in accuracy there was from the Heat Treated group in the top target to the two lower groups.

[w30wcf]

sthwestvictoria,
Great illustrations :smile: of similar experiences I have had but in the .30-30. I also experienced some leading with the softer bullets (20/1lead/tin) even when gas checked.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OVERSIZED BORE RIDE DIAMETER - Can happen when using softer alloys with a g.c. bullet. That was a lesson I learned years ago when casting some 311284's from a 50/50 w.w./ lead alloy. The unintentional bumping up of the bore ride diameter happened when preseating the gas checks with a bit of pressure on the handle of the lubrisizer. As a result, the rounds loaded with those bullets would not chamber like the same bullet made from a 50/50 w.w. / linotype alloy. Lesson learned.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LOWER SECTIONAL DENSITY BULLETS can be pushed faster with softer alloys than higher density bullets.
As an example, in .30-30 caliber, my experience has shown that an air cooled w.w. + 2% tin 120 gr. g.c. bullet can be pushed easily to 2,200 f.p.s. and provide consistant accuracy. With a 170 gr. bullet about 1,800 f.p.s. has been the limit to maintain consistant accuracy.

By consistant, I mean many shots (50+) with accuracy maintained throughout. Certainly, the 170 gr. bullet above can be loaded to 2,100 f.p.s. with decent accuracy for several shots.......but then groups start to open up considerably........even with slower burning powders in my testing.

w30wcf

[MtGun44]

My support of soft alloys is for pistols, not experienced enough with rifles to have much
of an opinion - other than air cooled wwts in my .45-70 AND A GAS CHECK work great
at 1750 or higher, but I don't really enjoy shooting 405s faster than 1750. I have no
doubt that with higher velocity rifles, things are likely to reach the limits of what the
soft alloys can stand.

Bill

[Elkins45]

Ya gotta get all your ducks in a row, but you can shoot pretty soft stuff about as fast as lead will go.
I have pushed 50/50 boolits that were dropped on the bench and measured 8BHN to 2400fps.
I had the right cartridge (358Winchester) the right lube (FWFL) the right mold (RCBS 35-200-FN) the right powder, and the right twist and barrel length (1-14, 24" long).
You just have to work it up one step at a time.

Be aware though, that if you intend to hunt, you might be setting yourself up for a.....shall we say "eye opening experience?"
See the link in my signature line.

So don't leave us hanging: what's the right powder?

[MBTcustom]

So don't leave us hanging: what's the right powder?

In my rifles, built my way, using reformed LC Match brass, it was definitely IMR3031.
You know what's really cool? All the rifles that I have reamed with that reamer, threaded, chambered and bedded in this shop, with the same twist rate (1-14) can all use the same load interchangeably.

I went out and shot with the feller that got the Genesis rifle, and I took Siete Leguas (my personal 358 built on a Sako AV) and the loads that I developed for it using the above components. Those loads shot identically in the Geneses even though I had never used that rifle to work them up.