Propane house

[Gunslinger1911]

I'm buying a house outside town. Has propane for heat. I don't really like electric stoves, but I figure running a propane stove really eats into the tank. Thoughts ?

[blademasterii]

I run a gas stove off of a 60 gallon tank. I cook almost every night and one tank full lasted me almost a year and a half.

[bandsmoyer]

You'll hardly notice what the stove uses.

[markshere2]

My house had a propane furnace in it when I moved in. I switched from electric dryer, hot water and stove to propane.

Two biggest money savers withe propane:
BUY YOUR OWN TANK!! Propane companies will " rent" you a yank, but insist that they and they alone re-fill it. When filling their tank, they charge a higher per gallon rate. When you own a tank, you can call around and play the other companies rates off each other.

BUY A BIG tank so a summer fill (when prices are low) will last a year. The expense adds value to your home, so it's an investment with some future return ( when you sell.)

Beyond that, go with high efficiency appliances.

Follow those rules and your costs plummet.

[GhostHawk]

In the long run you might want to reconsider.

Is it better to be

A Outside of town, away from people, able to shoot off my own porch?

B Inside of town, full range of services including natural gas. Can't shoot off my porch but I can build an airgun range in my basement.

Propane is the more expensive option.
Points made above are VERY good.
When you buy a tank, don't undersize it.
Buy your propane in July for the entire year. Historically that is when prices are lowest.

[TCLouis]

Trust me a propane stove will not use the gas the heating system will.

That said one is going to pay for heat, hot water and cooking one way or another no matter the energy source.

Gas stove is infinitely variable heat level unlike electric. Gas broiler in an oven is worthless.

[MT Gianni]

One gallon of propane contains 92,000 btu's. One range burner is about 9,000 btu or ten hours of cooking. Average oven is 22,000 btus or 4 2/3 hr of constant on. Ovens reach a temp and cycle so you will not have a constant on. Get a pilotless one or turn the pilots off and use a lighter for the top burners.

[dragon813gt]

Stoves barely use any gas. If you look around you will see a lot of places that are all electric but have a single sixty pound propane bottle. Most of those bottles will last them a year or two depending on use.

As said above, buy your own tank so you can shop around. Otherwise you are locked into one company and are stuck w/ their price.

[Adk Mike]

I have an all gas house. Not very big. 1/ thousand gallon tank 2 deliver s per year.
A modern stove with electron ignition hardly any usage.
Unlike like the others. Own the tank set up your supplier in the summer. Get a contract for any winter deliveries. Stay with that vendor for a year. Propane gets tight in the winter and the company's won't know you in bitter cold .
Any house 3000 square feet and under a 500 is fine. 3 or 4 delivery s per year of 300 gallons.
One supplier for the season with a pricing agreement and you'll be happy. .
I've been in the business for 30 years and this is what I tell people every day.

[rockrat]

Yep, BUY your own tank(s). I had one I bought and one I "rented", although, if you fill it 2X a year the rent was free. Company was bought out by a national company, and gas price doubled. Called around and found refurbished tanks, and bought one. Newer local company delivered tank, set it up and checked my regulators(fee of course), then called national company and told them to come pick up their tank.

Alot of companies have a "pre-buy", where you pay for X amount of gallons up front, and then in the winter, you get it delivered, and you don't pay the high winter price. I usually fill up in August or September, do my pre-buy, then have enough to last me till the next Summer.

Winter prices can normally be twice summer prices.

[alrighty]

Not much to add except one thing to look out for before doing a summer price contract.The propane companies here have in their contract that they can cancel at any time for any reason.So last winter when the cost of propane doubled they would not honor their contract.

[Handloader109]

I had electric heat and water heater in my MS home. Wife hates electric range, we installed a propane range way back in 1991. We averaged well over a month, usually two off of 20 lb bbq grill sized tanks. About $10 a month at current prices. Last couple of years I upgraded to rv sized tanks and went to twice a year changes. Cheap

[Love Life]

Propane sucks. I had it at the old house I owned in NC, and have it at the house I rent here in Nevada. I really despise is. I would much prefer all electric and a wood stove.

A) Make sure it is a large propane tank so a fill up lasts through a winter.
B) Fill it up in the summer.
C) Play the "I'm poor" card, as I do it and can usually get some knocked off the price per gallon.

I have found that not much money at all is saved with propane and electric combo and that it is just a plain old hassle.

[fouronesix]

My house had a propane furnace in it when I moved in. I switched from electric dryer, hot water and stove to propane.

Two biggest money savers withe propane:
BUY YOUR OWN TANK!! Propane companies will " rent" you a yank, but insist that they and they alone re-fill it. When filling their tank, they charge a higher per gallon rate. When you own a tank, you can call around and play the other companies rates off each other.

BUY A BIG tank so a summer fill (when prices are low) will last a year. The expense adds value to your home, so it's an investment with some future return ( when you sell.)

Beyond that, go with high efficiency appliances.



Follow those rules and your costs plummet.

That's it in a nutshell!!!

[jmort]

When you live in the sticks, it is the only reasonable option, other than wood and electric/solar. I use it for hot water and the stove. I quit using propane for heat and find a couple few space heaters are a better deal, but in Ohio, I doubt that would make sense. Ditched the 250 gallon tank for two 7 gallon tanks on a regulator which switches over when one tank is empty. I then refill when one tank is empty. I go to the "dump" every week, so it fits well into my routine.

[Gunslinger1911]

Wow, I love this site !!!!!!
Thanks guys, great info.
I "assume" the tank isn't rented, have to find that out. It's huge, to me at least. Maybe 5' long and 3' dia.
I figure that will last a good while for the fill in summer idea.
House has 2 fireplaces, and I'm thinking possibly getting some kind of wood burner to supplement the heat - wood is not a problem.

[Three44s]

By all means, heat the house with wood when that's an option!

But a propane cook top is only bettered with natural gas (cheaper).

All the other good points are spot on ........ big tank, buy when it's priced at it's cheapest, own the tank! We get 9 months out of a 25 gallon tank (20 gallons usable) through our cook top.

One thing however is not so great about gas cook tops: It's hard to get most of them low enough for a real low heat option with some cooking!

Some will ..... look real close at having at least one burner that has a super low setting. Otherwise you have to use a deflector plate to reduce the heat for those real delicate cooking jobs.

But for the bulk of your cooking ......... gas, either variety can't be beat! You turn it on and you are cooking in seconds compared to electric. You don't run off from gas ....... you stay there and mind your P's & Q's until you get things feathered out .........

Best regards

Three 44s

[oneokie]

Wow, I love this site !!!!!!
Thanks guys, great info.
I "assume" the tank isn't rented, have to find that out. It's huge, to me at least. Maybe 5' long and 3' dia.


That sounds like a 500 gallon tank.
One thing to keep in mind if shopping for a propane tank, if it does not have a data plate affixed, you will not find anyone who will fill it.
There are new regulations that propane companies have to comply with now.
First is making notes of the information on the data plate, second is inspecting any appliances connected to the tank, third is checking the date on the regulator attached to the tank. If the regulator is out of date/single stage, they will replace the regulator. Usually done for no charge.

[Gunslinger1911]

Just something cool - walking the 2 acre yard, came upon this cute little critter taking a nap (baby deer - cell pic)

106781

[Cornbread]

I have run the gamut of heating sources over the years living in the sticks.

If you live in the sticks and live anywhere close to a coal source, heating your house with coal and a coal burning stove or furnace is dirt cheap. In the Dakotas where my brother lives you can buy enough coal to heat your house through an entire winter(8 - 9 months with many -30 or lower days) for $300 or less. My brother can heat his place for roughly $30 a month with coal. I wish I had a coal source close enough to do that. Check your local laws on burning coal too, some places are pretty strict about it. In MT, WY, and ND, and SD so long as you are outside a town most places don't care what you do on your place but you have to live close enough to a source to be able to get a ton on your own at a time or have it delivered cheaply by the ton. My brother gets his by the dump truck load from a mine near his place. Cost him about nothing.

Next cheapest is firewood if you live in an area where you can cut it yourself like I do here in Montana. I cut 12 - 14 cords a year for 8 months a year of needing to run the heat at least part of the day. It runs me $60 - $80 a year in wood cutting permit fees plus diesel to and from the forest, plus saw gas, plus bar oil, plus chain saw chains, plus two stroke oil, plus protective equipment, plus skidding cable, plus winches, plus truck tires etc...... you get the picture. In the end it is more expensive than heating with coal but I can't get cheap coal here and it is still less than $70 per month of heating cost....but it is a TON of work!!! You can pretty much kiss every Saturday you have in spring and summer and early fall goodbye unless you have help and can get 2 or more cord at a time. Then you have to split it too. I do all my splitting by hand with a maul. I spend a lot of time "saving" money by using firewood. So it saves money only if you have time to devout to doing it. Also if you need to lose weight, this will do it.

Next cheapest is buying firewood. Out here it runs $120 a cord un-split. So your heating bill averages $180 per month as most people burn an average of 1.5 cord a month over 8 months. You still get the "joy" of splitting it and hauling it all into the house but you have more time to yourself.

Propane is the next cheapest but you MUST own your tank or it doesn't pencil out any better than electric. Get the biggest tank you can find. Here in Montana you want a 1,000 gallon tank. If you can find a refurbished one they are often less than half the cost of a new one. Buy one tank full per year in summer and you are set. Not as cheap as firewood but you also get all your weekends to do whatever else you want to do and you don't have to split it and carry it into the house.

Also propane stoves to cook on are the BEST!!! If you have any other heat source it is worth setting up a small tank and using it just for your stove if you or your wife cooks a lot. Your wife will love you for this if she likes to cook. Cooking on a wood stove is an art and is really hard to pull off and electric is set to a few settings and doesn't allow you to vary your heat appropriately for precise cooking. Oven wise electric is fine, it is the range that matters for gas or electric cooking. If you are off grid obviously wood or propane are your only oven options out here as solar ovens don't work here in our dark winters.

Electric heat out here for a regular house will run you about $300 a month. It is the most expensive form of heat that is still affordable.

Heating oil is the one heating source I have not tried. It is far too expensive where I live to even consider it.

[jmort]

I have tried to figure a way to get coal delivered to So. Cal. That would be my choice.

[dragon813gt]

I have tried to figure a way to get coal delivered to So. Cal. That would be my choice.

Have you had coal before? It's available here and I stay away from it. Still plenty of homes in town w/ the coal chutes under their front porches. To much of a mess for me. But I have other options.

[dilly]

I have tried to figure a way to get coal delivered to So. Cal. That would be my choice.

I would have assumed California was anti-coal, not knowing any better. Are there any restrictions/regulations/bans, etc. on coal there?

[jmort]

Not sure about restrictions on coal, would not doubt it, but we have to get special wood stoves approved for California and now EPA have new standard which will affect entire country, making wood stoves more expensive/scarce.

[archmaker]

I will say one small advantage to propane stove, is that when the electric goes out during a storm, you can get SOME heat from the appliance, notice I said some, don't run it all the time!!!! or even for long periods, but nothing like some hot chocolate chip cookies and hot chocolate milk in the kitchen when you don't have electricity.

[firefly1957]

I just bought my own propane tank and joined a local co-op ($10) year propain* though them is $1.69/gallon i have stove hot water heater and boiler that heats a 1900 square foot home and use less than 2000 gallons a year.
* locally i was charged up to $4.99 / gallon so propain is new spelling.

I have looked into wood heat best way is outdoor boiler cost is $10,000 i just do not see it as making it save for a long time. 500 gallon Tank was about a grand installed some places charge much more

[Gunslinger1911]

You guys are a wealth of knowledge !!!
One cool thing I noticed, the basement has a fireplace also (in addition to the 2 up). It is plumb'd into the furnace vents somehow (heat exchanger ?). Didn't pay attention on first walk through.

[CastingFool]

we heat our 2100 sq ft home with propane, and supplement with a pellet stove, when it really gets chilly. Our house is pretty well insulated (I think, lol) and we normally prebuy our propane (propain, like that spelling) We do keep our t-stat about 68 during the day, drop it down to 63-64 at night. 500 gal tank is not mine, was supplied by propane company, no rental fee. We do prebuy our propane, matter of fact, just got our notice to prebuy, $1.83/gal, cash or check. Tried to get the company to install a larger 1000 gal tank, and they would not do it, based on our usage, which averages to 1200-1300 gals/yr. We're on automatic fill, and normally they come 3-4 times a year. Most years we have money left over on our account, which is passed on to the following year. We also use a propane drier, and water heater. Stove is electric, as my wife doesn't like to cook with propane. We do have a 2nd stove in the basement that is propane. I told her I wanted to keep that one in the event of a power outage, we can still cook dinner, make coffee (very important), and make boolit lube. We do use the propane stove for canning, too.

[dragon813gt]

One cool thing I noticed, the basement has a fireplace also (in addition to the 2 up). It is plumb'd into the furnace vents somehow (heat exchanger ?). Didn't pay attention on first walk through.

Fairly common. Allows you use the central system fan to move hot air from the fireplace. A buddy has one hooked up to his ductwork and it's how he heats his home. He only runs the heat pump when above 40 degrees and we disabled his electric auxiliary heat package. It's best to completely remove the piping from the fireplace to the ductwork in the warmer months. Dampers do not close 100%.

[turmech]

"I will say one small advantage to propane stove, is that when the electric goes out during a storm, you can get SOME heat from the appliance, notice I said some, don't run it all the time!!!! or even for long periods, but nothing like some hot chocolate chip cookies and hot chocolate milk in the kitchen when you don't have electricity."

This is only the case if your cooking stove has a standing polit. Most made in the last several years do not. Probably for at least the last 10 years they would have electric ignition which would require power to start.

[dragon813gt]

This is only the case if your cooking stove has a standing polit. Most made in the last several years do not. Probably for at least the last 10 years they would have electric ignition which would require power to start.

The oven will have a hot surface ignitor so that's a no go for using w/ no power. The stove top simply requires a match to light the burners.

[turmech]

Yes, but not baking cookies is all I meant.

[dbosman]

A contract that can be broken by one party - isn't a contract.


Not much to add except one thing to look out for before doing a summer price contract.The propane companies here have in their contract that they can cancel at any time for any reason.So last winter when the cost of propane doubled they would not honor their contract.

[dbosman]

Crack a window in another room if you use your stove for heat.
Under normal circumstances the carbon oxides aren't an issue, but in a power outage the furnace isn't moving air and the kitchen can accumulate more than one cares to breath.


"I will say one small advantage to propane stove, is that when the electric goes out during a storm, you can get SOME heat from the appliance, notice I said some, don't run it all the time!!!! or even for long periods, but nothing like some hot chocolate chip cookies and hot chocolate milk in the kitchen when you don't have electricity."

This is only the case if your cooking stove has a standing polit. Most made in the last several years do not. Probably for at least the last 10 years they would have electric ignition which would require power to start.

[Cactus Farmer]

We bought this place and the owners were "askeered" of gas, although the old heater was gas. They took out all the piping.......I abhor electric stoves and wanted a new water heater so I was a plumber for a day. I got it all plumbed and tested. No leaks! The drier is electric, as is the AC (I'm in the desert). Propain (I like that too) is my answer. 500 gallons lasts a year. And we do lots of cooking, canning and such. We have a large bath tub too. Bath with your sweety and conserve water. I do have an old (brand new condition) coal wash stove. Now if I can trade lead for coal>>>>>>>>>

[shooter93]

I don't know if this is any help with all the previous answers but....I am total propane. Heat, cooking, hot water and even the garage/shop heat for over 20 years. BUY your tank and keep the receipt for a few years to show the company you buy from that you own it....they WILL ask for it. I bought a bury tank, 1000 gallons, because they only fill any tank 80% to allow for expansion. Call around to all the propane companies for the first few years as prices vary wildly. I've seen a buck a gallon difference. DO NOT be lead into automatic fill. If your lucky you'll eventually find a dealer like I did who is always the best price and you'll just use him. The guy I use charges a flat amount over his cost, not a percentage, so when prices go up he isn't gouging. Our house is about 2100 sq. ft. with a third of it with ceilings that vault to 14 feet. My wife works out of here and with the pets and customers the doors are opened and closed a lot and the shop temp has to be up when I'm finishing. We use between 1,100 and 1,300 gallons a year for everything which I consider very good. The highest it was here during last Winter's "shortage" was 1.99 but generally runs much less with Summer prices, when you get filled of course, of 1.49. When we're not heating and it's cooking and hot water which we use a lot of you won't even see the gauge move. I like the stuff and like living out.

[BD]

I've lived and worked in five states and two foreign countries. I have never been lived anywhere where Propane was not cheaper than electricity for heat, cooking or hot water. I've had a commercial six burner Garland range for a kitchen stove for the last 25 years and it has always been cheaper than electric, even with four pilots running 24/7. If you really want to save some $$ and live in luxury, get a propane instantaneous water heater. An Aquastar, or Rinnai. Much cheaper than an electric water heater, and when you want to, you can stay in the shower forever and not run out of hot water. Ever fall through the ice? A long hot shower is just the ticket after that experience, like two hours long :)

[Adk Mike]

I work for the big propane company. The local guy has some advantage and the big guy has advantages in other area's. Remember when the company puts their tank in your lawn. The money clock is ticking. What I mean is that's a fixed asset that they own. They have to get a return just a common law in business. If you own your tank that does not apply and a better price. But you own it. Regulator problems leaks etc can be your problem. That's why I say a contract for the season. You may have a friend when you need one in say January.
One other thing high volume users (commercial) don't at least in my area own a tank because high volume means lower margins . No need to own it.
One advantage of the big guy is supply is not an issue. They can get the gas. Like I say the local player has advantages also. But supply is a big one..

[shooterg]

Went from oil to propane heat in our small(1300 sg.ft.) home. Never used more than 110 in a winter out of the 250 gal. "Caboose" in the yard(we own it, so I call around for the lowest price every summer). When hot water heater expires, I'm thinking about one of propane fired on demand deals. The wife will not give up the 1950's Hotpoint electric double oven though !

[MaryB]

One of the big users is a hot water tank. Switch to an on demand or go to solar hot water and you will cut a lot of gas use. If in the country consider a standby generator or go wood so you have heat in winter when power fails. I have a pellet stove and it will run off 12 volts from my solar array and storage batteries. I need to start buying a ton of pellets a month from here on out so I have a stash this winter, suspect prices might spike...

[Petrol & Powder]

I've used all types of heat/power and currently use a lot of propane. Propane has some real advantages but also some drawbacks (kinda like most things in life :razz:)
Propane allows you to be somewhat independent for short periods of time. As long as you have an adequate supply on hand, the system requires no outside energy to function (natural gas requires an intact piping system and a compressor station to deliver the gas under pressure to your house). Propane is also very efficient and clean burning. However the downside of propane is cost and availability. It's fairly expensive and you are dependent on a supplier.
For me, in a rural area the advantages of propane outweigh the disadvantages.

As to the original poster's comment about a gas cook stove - a cook stove uses relatively little propane. A gas stove is not only a great device to cook on but it will function even without electricity. You may need a match to light it when the power is off but that's about as difficult as it gets.
A propane furnace will use a considerable about of fuel but it provides good heat. Propane also burns cleanly and there is little maintenance needed. You are just trading one source of heat for another but I'd rather have something that doesn't rely on an outside source of power, like electricity. Some propane heaters are very efficient, require no electricity and are very reliable. They make good back-up or emergency heaters.

[Gunslinger1911]

Wow, I'm overwhelmed with all the responses, I thank you all.
I've lost all reservations about using propane ! lol
Keep 'em coming !

[Petrol & Powder]

Wow, I'm overwhelmed with all the responses, I thank you all.
I've lost all reservations about using propane ! lol
Keep 'em coming !

Propane has some significant advantages over some fuels. It's not perfect but it has its place.

One of the advantages is that it generates its own operating pressure. At normal temperatures and atmospheric pressure; propane is a gas. Compress it, store it in a pressure vessel (tank) and it can be stored as a liquid with far greater density. Inside that tank, some of that liquid boils off and forms gas above the liquid. The gas and liquid reach equilibrium and the boiling stops, therefore holding most of the propane in a liquid state. As you draw off propane gas (or liquid) and use it, additional liquid boils and maintains that equilibrium. That process allows you to have a great deal of potential BTU's available in a very small space AND it provides the pressure needed to make the gas flow without additional pumps or power.
After passing through a couple of regulators, the actual pressure applied at the appliances is fairly low (I think about an 11" water column or about 1/2 psi IIRC)
In a well designed system with good materials; propane is both safe and self pressurizing.

I have a heat pump with a propane furnace that supplies the heat below 40 degree F. My water heater is fueled by propane. I have a propane cook stove and a couple of propane fueled heaters. The stand-by generator is fueled by propane. Perhaps my favorite propane powered device is a Falks double mantle propane lamp over my kitchen table. http://www.galaxygas.com/falks/assets/double.png

That lamp provides both light and heat.

I've used just about every type of domestic fuel known, including: wood, kerosene, electricity, fuel oil (diesel) and coal. They all have advantages and disadvantages. In a rural setting, propane is probably one of the easier ones to deal with. Propane allows you to be somewhat self sufficient for a few days to a few weeks. If municipal natural gas is available, it is even easier but you are then dependent on infrastructure that is vulnerable in a natural disaster.

Don't fear the tank !

[MaryB]

One issue here with propane is low temperatures in winter. We get days where it won't evaporate well. Many people use some form of tank heater for the coldest days.

[mikeym1a]

I have propane heat. My son has electric heat. he pays twice to heat his house that I pay to heat mine. Granted, his house is a bit bigger than mine, but not that much. I live alone, and really like coming home to a warm house, and a small electric bill. mikey

[Petrol & Powder]

One issue here with propane is low temperatures in winter. We get days where it won't evaporate well. Many people use some form of tank heater for the coldest days.

Vapor pressure can be a problem in extremely cold temps. There are a few solutions to that problem:
A. Use an in ground tank, the consent temperature of the earth will prevent the tank from becoming excessively cold.
B. place your tank next to Al Gore's house, it radiates enough heat to keep anything warm
C. Place the tank in the warm waters of the Gulf Steam, which according to current predictions, should be encroaching on Minnesota any day now. :smile:

[dragon813gt]

One issue here with propane is low temperatures in winter. We get days where it won't evaporate well. Many people use some form of tank heater for the coldest days.

Buried tanks don't have this issue. Why anyone in northern latitudes would have above ground tanks is beyond me. Especially for houses that are entirely propane. I live in south eastern PA and it gets cold enough here in the winter to cause issues w/ above ground tanks.

[MtGun44]

Cooking is WAY down the list of propane users. Heating is the only serious
user. I have a vacation home and a regular home that use propane. You need
to buy in the summer when (if) it is on sale, and buy in quantity when the prices
are low, more than your tank, and of course they store it for you. I bought three
years worth last time, but my house is extremely fuel efficient.

Natural gas pipeline runs at the road. . . . . but they want $9000 to connect due to
being 900 ft back from the road and they insist on running the pipeline to the house
at $10 a foot, last time I checked. Not happening, I wouldn't live long enough to
break even on the price difference - even if nat gas stays a bunch cheaper.

Bill

[MaryB]

Problem is many of the local propane companies refuse to fill underground tanks because they can't be inspected yearly.


Buried tanks don't have this issue. Why anyone in northern latitudes would have above ground tanks is beyond me. Especially for houses that are entirely propane. I live in south eastern PA and it gets cold enough here in the winter to cause issues w/ above ground tanks.

[dragon813gt]

Problem is many of the local propane companies refuse to fill underground tanks because they can't be inspected yearly.

I know why they do this. It's because they're not happy that it's not their tank. Ever see them perform a tank inspection. It's pretty much what the oil companies do. Fill out the inspection form in the truck.

[Petrol & Powder]

Not to drift too far but around here a lot of tanks are buried. However, the kicker is that you can only lease a tank from the fuel company, they will not sell you a tank or fill a privately owned tank. It's a huge scam. I've never even heard of a tank inspection. I guess if they own the tank it's safe forever but if you own the tank it's dangerous starting the first day it's made.

[MtGun44]

AFAIK I own my tank, came with the house - no problem getting it filled.

Bill

[Petrol & Powder]

Yep, previous owner said the tank was theirs and it conveyed with the property. Fuel company said the tank belonged to them. I demanded proof and it turns out the previous property owner DID sign a lease and the tank was the property of the fuel company. It's a scam but there wasn't much I could do about it.