Embarassing Fail to Feed

[Ironduke]

Saturday I took a pistol course at a local shooting school. Knowing the class will go through a bunch of ammo over several levels of classes i wanted to shoot cast SWCs to save some dough. It turned out to be an exercise in embarrassment. Nothing says "I'm serious about shooting" like ammo that you made that doesn't work!!

I was shooting some 45 cal 200gr SWC I cast from a Lee 6 banger. Bullets were pan lubed and sized at .452 with a Lee push through die. I tested the loads several weeks ago, and had no issues with function or accuracy--I could easily keep all rounds in the A zone of the man-sized silhouette.

At the shooting class, though, the very first round from the mag failed to feed. The next round fed and shot, but the slide only closed half way on the third round from the mag. At that point the instructor asked if I was using handloads. I admitted such, and at the next break in training he had me switch to factory ammo, which I brought just in case. The rest of the training was uneventful. But before the break, the cast loads continued to confound my training.

I think the problem is too much crimp causing the case to bulge just behind the case mouth. Perhaps I applied slightly more crimp on this ammo than I did on the test ammo from several weeks ago?

The biggest issue I face now is how to fix these loads. I have 250-300 of these loaded up. I can go to the range and shoot the ones that will go bang, but the ones that won't feed are another issue. I can't pull these with a collett puller because there isn't enough of the bullet shoulder available to grab onto. I don't think an inertia puller will pull the bullets with such a firm crimp.

I wish I could swage out the bulge in the case by running the ammo partially through a die--maybe the sizing die with the decapping stem removed?

Advice?

[Joe504]

An inertial puller will work, just might take a few whacks.

[Mumblypeg]

What Joe said.... no shame, we all learn. That's why it's ALWAYS good to check a few rounds to make sure they work in your firearm before loading a whole bunch of them.

[62chevy]

Get the Lee bulge buster you will also need the Lee factory crimp die.

http://www.titanreloading.com/lee-crimp-dies/-45-acp-lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die-45-acp

http://www.titanreloading.com/lee-bulge-buster-kit?filter_name=bulge%20buster

[willie_pete]

One other point if I may. If you are ever going to shoot in public and you don't want to be embarrassed by things like this, take the barrel out of your gun and chamber check each round you are going to shoot before match day.

Resizing after the fact runs the chance of resizing the bullet with attendant accuracy issues.

WP

[popper]

Try the sizer die, run it ALL the way down. Works for my 9 & 40. You may need to pull them manually but a whole lot less messy than the inertia method & you can save the powder. I use a short PVC tube & wire cutter/crimper tool to grab the lead. Of course the lead gets recycled.

[Bad Andy]

Well I know a Bullet Hammer (inertia type) puller has worked for me on 9mm with a factory crimp. Never done anyting above a
.40. The trick for me was using a large chunck of wood to hammer against..1-2 whacks did the trick.

[dudel]

Well I know a Bullet Hammer (inertia type) puller has worked for me on 9mm with a factory crimp. Never done anyting above a
.40. The trick for me was using a large chunck of wood to hammer against..1-2 whacks did the trick.

Best thing I've found for the inertial puller is a piece of pressure treated 4x4. I have an 18" piece that I stand on end. Comfortable enough to use while seated. Less chance of damaging the hammer. So handy, I put a handle on the side. Low tech, but works great.

To OP, inertial puller will do fine even with a massive crimp. DAMHIKT!

Lee's bulge buster should work. Remember you are pushing a loaded round from the primer end. Hope they are well seated. Go slow, be careful.

Personally, I go shoot the ones that work at the range and pull the ones that don't (hopefully just a few). Much safer. If you're not using oversized boolits, this is a case where running them through a Lee Factory Crimp Carbide die might save you the effort of pulling the rounds. Lee FCCD is pretty cheap.

[BruceB]

I've said it before, but it seems that it bears repeating....

EVERY SINGLE ROUND that I load for any autoloading firearm is run through a CARTRIDGE GAUGE (not a "case gauge") to ensure that each of those rounds is in-spec before it ever reaches a gun.

The boxes that those rounds are stored in are clearly marked with big red letters on a stick-on label: "GAUGED".

This procedure does a great deal for my peace of mind.... and it sorts-out the rare problem rounds very nicely.

If any given round fails the gauge test, I give it a fast check to see if a minor burr on the rim may be the difficulty. A needle file makes short work of small burrs.

If there is no such burr, I just crush the offending cartridge and carry on to the next. I see no point in agonizing over a single round.

[gwpercle]

Try the sizing die, partial resize (just enough to allow rounds to chamber...no more), remove decapping stem of course.
Had a whole box of Black Hills 45 acp with cast lead boolits that would not chamber in a revolver (minimum clearance in that particular revolvers chambers and throat), sized the rounds just enough to chamber and didn't have any issues after that. If you size them too much the boolit gets sized down too much , lead has no spring back, and the boolits will get loose in the case.
That particular revolver likes boolits sized .451, sized .452 and depending on brass case thickness, they may or may not chamber.
Gary

[BK7saum]

You are shooting a .45 ACP? With a taper crimp die used for crimping the rounds? I absolutely do not see how you could have taper crimp the cartridges and they will not chamber. I can see not enough crimp being applied and the mouth still belled a little bit and It won't chamber.

What caliber and what dies are you using?

[BK7saum]

Check the cases with a pair of calipers and see where the bulge is actually located.

[bedbugbilly]

I agree with BruceB - the $20 something price of a cartridge gauge is well spent. I have 'em on my bench and every round that comes off of my press gets checked. Never have had a problem if they slip in and meet specs.

BK7saum - The same thoughts you voiced are running through my head . . .

[dverna]

This is a valuable lesson - especially for those who reload ammo for things other than plinking. I see many guys get sloppy after a while.

Loads for competition, hunting and especially for self defense should be made with the utmost care. Do not use mixed cases of varying condition. Those are your plinking/practice cases.

Look at the upside. Being embarrassed is a lot better than being dead.

Don Verna

[dragon813gt]

I'm trying to figure out how you bulged the case w/ a taper crimp. Measure the crimp w/ some calipers. That will tell you if it's to much. And as much as I hate to recommend one. If the cases are that far out of spec run them through a Lee FCD. My 45acp one is large enough that it won't post size cast bullets below .452. I'd rather run a few hundred through the FCD over the inertia puller.

[Jailer]

I say keep em loaded and separated and rotate em in during practice for malfunction drills.

I've got a bunch of H&G 130 clones loaded up that will malfunction occasionally and that's what I keep them around for.

[KYShooter73]

Don't feel too bad, I made a G21 go boom in a class once. Embarrassing as hell, not to mention the blood blisters and rattled nerves. I still don't know what caused it, fired out of battery, double charged??? Screwed up the mag, trigger, and mag release....

106283

[Ironduke]

You are shooting a .45 ACP? With a taper crimp die used for crimping the rounds? I absolutely do not see how you could have taper crimp the cartridges and they will not chamber. I can see not enough crimp being applied and the mouth still belled a little bit and It won't chamber.

What caliber and what dies are you using?

Yes, I am shooting 45 ACP. I looked at some of the offending rounds, and they don't look bad. I pulled the barrel and dropped 2 of the offending rounds into the chamber, and they do not go all the way in by a few thousandths. Factory ammo will drop right in and seat flush. Visual inspection of the offending rounds does not indicate any obvious issues, but once the rounds are seated in the chamber with mild thumb pressure, they don't want to come out that easily like factory rounds will. I partially sized the rounds in my sizer die, and now they fit the chamber nicely.

Dies are RCBS, and I have loaded lots of issue-free Jacketed loads with these dies. And, i tested these bullets with this powder before I loaded up a bunch of them, and had no issues over 20 rounds. I was confident this ammo would shoot. Bummer.

My plan, since the partial sizing seems to work is to drop each round in the chamber to see if it fits. If so, it goes in the box. If not, it gets run through the sizer and rechecked.

[Ironduke]

I've said it before, but it seems that it bears repeating....

EVERY SINGLE ROUND that I load for any autoloading firearm is run through a CARTRIDGE GAUGE (not a "case gauge") to ensure that each of those rounds is in-spec before it ever reaches a gun.

Ok. I want a cartridge gauge. I need one for another project too--I have a 25 WSSM gas gun, which makes for a picky combo. Who makes them? I figure if nothing else, I can have one made from a short stub of barrel reamed to minimum spec.

[BK7saum]

You still need to identify what's causing the problem so you don't run into it again. With calipers measure the width of the cartridge right at the case mouth, then down a little and again where the base of the bullet is in the case.

Could be way off base, but seems like a lack of crimp, not too much. I definitely would not run loaded ammo into the sizer until I identified the problem. Loaded ammo through the sizer will likely size the bullet inside rhe case and coyld lead to leading, inaccuracy or other problems, possibly overpressure from bullet setback.
Lets identify the problem, and fix it.

[BK7saum]

Please try lowering the crimp die to apply a little more crimp to the problem cartridges.

[Sgt Petro]

Well kudos to admitting you had issues and trying to solve it. I know it must have been pretty embarrassing.
You're a better man than most for admitting it and trying to do better next time. You have no idea how many times I've heard folks blame the gun, weather, range, humidity, mag, etc.

[Ironduke]

Well kudos to admitting you had issues and trying to solve it. I know it must have been pretty embarrassing.
You're a better man than most for admitting it and trying to do better next time. You have no idea how many times I've heard folks blame the gun, weather, range, humidity, mag, etc.

Thanks. Yes. It's embarrassing. But worse would be to fail to learn from your experiences. When I can I try to learn from the mistakes of others so I don't repeat their problems, but at the very least I try to not repeat my OWN mistakes!!

Interestingly, I wouldn't be embarrassed if I wasn't a regular shooter. I mean I've been reloading for 20 years and reload for maybe 30 cartridges. I have shot tons of Pb and Cu down range over the years. I take classes to improve my shooting skills, and I am known by my friends, family and colleagues as a "gun guy". This is why it's so embarrassing to experience problems that novice shooters don't.

A novice runs factory ammo through a stock factory gun, and he doesn't understand the intricacies of how everything works from internal ballistics, external ballistics, mechanics of the gun, spring tension in the magazine, ammo selection, etc, etc, etc. So when something doesn't go right, it's natural for them to blame the gun or ammo or both. But as a shooter, when something doesn't go right, I know it's me because I know the gun is running, and if it's not, that's my fault. I know if there's an ammo problem it's my fault because I made that ammo. A new guy gets frustrated when problems arise. Shooters get frustrated too, but there is an element of embarrassment to boot-- at least when your problem manifests itself in front of others.

[dakotashooter2]

Were you using the same brand brass as your original loads.? A variation in brass thickness can cause that. Forget to size a batch of bullets?

For a while I had a heck of a time with .40 S&W loads. Finally figured out that most of the brass needed to be de-glocked. Once I did that I didn't have any more problems.

[captaint]

Ironduke - Just because it hasn't been mentioned, your cases, after boolit seated and TAPER CRIMPED, should be close to .471, right at the case mouth. I get away with .472. Some guys won't. Something to check though. Might help. Mike

[Mallard57]

What about your seating depth/ OAL?

[Fluxed]

The taper crimped case should measure .466 - .468 right at the case mouth.

[Bullwolf]

Ok. I want a cartridge gauge. I need one for another project too--I have a 25 WSSM gas gun, which makes for a picky combo. Who makes them? I figure if nothing else, I can have one made from a short stub of barrel reamed to minimum spec.

You can always use your barrel as the cartridge gauge on the cheap, and your load will be custom tailored to your specific barrel instead of to industry spec. This can be really nice if you have a gun with a super tight match chamber, or an out of spec barrel for one reason or another

However that being said, I often find myself using both barrel and cartridge gauge methods. If I am only loading for MY gun then I use MY gun's barrel. When loading 45acp that will be shot in more than one gun, I use a cartridge gauge (cartridge go/no go gauge) instead.

When I worked for a commercial reloading company we often used Dillon cartridge gauges, and they worked just fine. At home I use a hybrid mix of mostly Dillon and Wilson cartridge gauges. I normally like Lyman products, but I got an out of spec Lyman gauge once, so I don't recommend them anymore

Also realize that some gauges out there are trim length gauges, and not a go or no go gauge. Be sure to get the correct type that you require

Here's a link for Dillon Precision handgun case gauges. (not trim gauges)

http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/25548/catid/3/Dillon_Handgun_Case_Gages

These are function checking gauges, or cartridge gauges like you were asking for. Scroll down the list to find 45acp.

Hope it helps some.



- Bullwolf

[Pb2au]

It is either,
1) OAL is too long. Check that first.
2) you do not have enough taper crimp. At the mouth you should be around .469 to .471.
3) Both could be off. So,,,check both. ;)
It takes very little cause the issue.
Good luck, I hope this helps.

[prs]

It is either,
1) OAL is too long. Check that first.
2) you do not have enough taper crimp. At the mouth you should be around .469 to .471.
3) Both could be off. So,,,check both. ;)
It takes very little cause the issue.
Good luck, I hope this helps.

Or, 4) The end of the chamber where the case is supposed to seat is contaminated with carbon and or lead. Use a sharp, like a cigar box nail or an awl to trace around that ledge to clear away carbon or lead.

Wilson makes cartridge gauges that meet the standards. Your barrel is the best plunk test gauge, if that ledge is clean.

prs

[smokeywolf]

I crimp mine to .471 Dia. +/- .001 at the case mouth.

Truncated cone boolits need to be seated a little deeper than a round nose. Especially if they have a somewhat larger diameter nose.

[Pb2au]

Or, 4) The end of the chamber where the case is supposed to seat is contaminated with carbon and or lead. Use a sharp, like a cigar box nail or an awl to trace around that ledge to clear away carbon or lead.

Wilson makes cartridge gauges that meet the standards. Your barrel is the best plunk test gauge, if that ledge is clean.

prs


Good call! That ledge can for sure get gunk in it and cause irritation.

[captaint]

Taper crimped 45ACP case should measure .468 ?? Well, let's see - boolit .452. Case walls, nearly always .010. Sounds like somebody is "over" taper crimping. Mike

[cainttype]

Although "taper crimp" has been mentioned several times, I haven't seen your reply indicating that you are actually using a taper crimp die.
Many die sets for 45acp have been sold with only a standard roll crimp die, especially when marked as 45acp/45 Colt. The addition of a true taper crimp die is absolutely mandatory for loading 45acp, IMO, if you want to avoid feeding malfunctions.
Crimping in a separate operation from seating the bullet also helps, especially if using a roll crimp. The "bulge" you describe can be caused by either too much roll crimp or a seating/crimping combo. A taper crimp used after seating will go a long way towards allieviating your issues.

[dragon813gt]

Taper crimped 45ACP case should measure .468 ?? Well, let's see - boolit .452. Case walls, nearly always .010. Sounds like somebody is "over" taper crimping. Mike

Not really. Some pistols won't feed at .472 or .470. Every pistol is different. Something else is wrong if you have to crimp below .468. But that measurement is normal for a lot of pistols.

[Fluxed]

Not really. Some pistols won't feed at .472 or .470. Every pistol is different. Something else is wrong if you have to crimp below .468. But that measurement is normal for a lot of pistols.

Or the gun has a tight chamber.
What works is what works.
.468 is pretty standard, presuming that you are using a proper taper crimp die.

[Love Life]

I taper crimp all 45 acp ammo to .468-.470 and have had years and years of problem free shooting nirvana.

[rsrocket1]

It should only take about 15-20 minutes to pull 100 rounds with an inertial puller. Do this over the span of a few evenings and you are done. Think of it a penance for future loading endeavors.

Don't worry, my 1911 is very picky about SWC's. If I seat them just right, they feed 100%, if not, 3 point jam city. That's why I went with the TL452-230-TC's. Perfect feeding every time.

[GL49]

Don't worry, my 1911 is very picky about SWC's. If I seat them just right, they feed 100%, if not, 3 point jam city. That's why I went with the TL452-230-TC's. Perfect feeding every time.

I, too, gave up on SWC's, they can be a bit troublesome in my 45's, and either shoot the TC or round nose, taper crimped to .471. All my brass is also kept sorted for headstamp and number of firings, I don't have any problems with feeding. A buddy of mine shoots the same boolits, taper crimped to .469, mixed brass, and has no problems. I've often wondered if he crimps a little smaller because it may make a slightly shorter case work all the time. I do know that even the RN and TC boolits gave him fits until he purchased a taper crimp die. I'll be interested to see what you finally determine to be the problem.

[dragon813gt]

Another thing to consider: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=232061

I have a reamer on the way for mine and I'm interested to see if it will make a difference.

[Sheldon]

It could be the chamber is tight on the barrel as well. Tooling wear out and sometimes you get a barrel with a chamber on the tighter side versus the looser side.

[HeavyMetal]

I did not see it mentioned so I will ask: do you trim case's or seperate by HS?

Case's do stretch, some calibers more so that other, and your "lot" of 45 brass may be getting long?

For years I just put the brass in a tumbler cleaned it then poured it in a 5 gallon bucket to load on my Dillon.

One day I started having the odd stoppage during practise and started hunting for the source.

An older shooter suggested I mike a bunch of case's which I did and found some "winner's", LOL!

Today I sort by HS and run them past a Lee trimmer set up in a cordless drill, not shooting match stuff any more or I'd get me a motorized trimmer to fit in the dillon.

Variations in case lenth will give you crimps, tapered or not, all over the place.

Check it out.

[Love Life]

^^Definitely something to look into. I trim every piece of pistol brass that comes through my hands for loading. It allows me a consistent crimp and stuff.

[BruceB]

I've loaded target-pistol ammunition for almost a half-century to date. The count must be upwards of a half-million rounds. From checking my records, I Know that I'm well over a quarter-million in .38 Special (wadcutters) alone. A good 90% of those were self-cast, too....

1. I have NEVER seen a .45 ACP case that was as long as the "standard" .898".... and I do check occasionally (as opposed to "all the time", in earlier years.

2. Also, I have NEVER trimmed a handgun case, as far as I can recall.

3. Using ammunition loaded under these conditions, I managed to reach Master class in Bullseye.

[Love Life]

I trim all pistol brass one time. It is usually trashed before it grows too long. As a matter of fact, I cant recall when I had a piece of pistol brass grow to long. Even in the .454.

[35remington]

I'll pile one here as well; one thing you can count on, and that's the fact that 45 ACP cases don't need trimming.

Ever.

Thing is, I've shot a great many rounds to date, and new factory cases are several thou shorter than the max trim to length. You'll never trim a case because it gets too long. Measure a case after firing; there is some lengthening on sizing, but it shortens right back up again on firing

Let me repeat; 45 ACP cases don't need trimming. They aren't too long as received from the factory, and they don't get longer on firing. Simple fact replicated by the vast majority of shooters out there. Until this thread this is the first time I've ever heard anyone claim 45 ACP cases were too long.

Doubt me? Track a single case or repeatedly load it to get accelerated case life testing. You'll get tired of measuring long before it lengthens to any degree. Look elsewhere for your problems.

IMO, it is a crime to have a "tight" chamber in a gun with a moveable barrel/slide relationship, as the barrel slide fit is far, far more limiting than any chamber would be either loose or tight. If a gun "needs" a taper crimp of much over .471" to .472" to get a round to fit, the chamber is stupidly tight and has no place in a 45 used for anything, and this is unnecessary even in a target pistol.

There is no room for any crud buildup and that's just plain dumb. Ream that sucker if this is necessary.

[TCLouis]

Just a thought, NOT a recommendation.

If one removes the decapping pin and runs a round at least part way into the resizing die it will usually ALWAYS chamber then.

Captured from something someone once posted on the interweb.

[Ironduke]

Thanks for all the input, guys.

I do sort by headstamp, and these days you have to sort by primer pocket size in the 45 as well since some are small pistol sized--even within the same brand. For example I have some FC, CCI and Blazer headstamped cases that are large primer and small primer. I guess the ammo factories get whatever brass they can get from different contractors.

Anyway, I started running some cases partially into the sizing die, and those would easily chamber thereafter. I also ran some back through the seater die with more crimp added, and they also chamber. So i loaded some ammo into the magazine and cycled the ammo through the gun, and it all fed as expected. It appears tat my problem was insufficient crimp, not too much crimp as I thought from the beginning.

Easy fix. Now to get to the range and test the ammo for reliability.

[dragon813gt]

So what was the crimp measurement before and after?

[GaryN]

I've been crimping mine at the mouth to .467-.469. The gun runs good that way. When using .471 it was a little tight and I would occasionally have one hang up.

[gefiltephish]

Is this the Lee TL or grooved bullet? Neither of my RIA's will reliably feed the grooved bullet, but neither have any trouble with "true" H&G 68 clones. The Lee has a pointier nose. I think the nose on the TL is probably ok though. I now use an Accurate Molds 68 clone and never have feed problems.

[Cherokee]

Sounds like you found the problem - too little taper crimp.