45-70 loads

[Johnw...ski]

Hi, I have just returned to shooting after taking a brake for about 20 years.
No, it wasn't a forced vacation at government expense.
The rifle I am using was built by me in the late '80s and never shot untill last week. It is an FDH#2 action built from the design of Frank DeHaas. I used a
McGowen 26" barrel with an 18" twist.
Last week I shot some 480 gr. plain base boolits pushed by 36 gr. of IMR 4198,
also I shot some Remington 45-70 Government 405 gr. SP out of it.
At 100 yds. from a bench I was shooting 2 1/2" groups in both cases, being a new rifle i had never shot before, I was elated.
Yesterday was another matter, shooting Lyman 457833A9 cast bullets sized
to .458 and weighing 402 gr. with gas check and pushed by 30 gr. IMR 4198 powder I was shoot 5 to 6" groups at 100yds. and more than double that at
200 yds. Interestingly the Remington factory was slightly less than 5" at 200 yds.
My guess is the boolit wasn't going fast enough to stabilize.
I would like to stick with the 402 gr boolit for this rifle since it is what I have and I would like to continue benching it. The heavier boolits are brutal.
Anyone have any suggestions and or a good load for this boolit weight?
Thanks,
John

[Johnw...ski]

Hi, I have just returned to shooting after taking a brake for about 20 years.
No, it wasn't a forced vacation at government expense.
The rifle I am using was built by me in the late '80s and never shot untill last week. It is an FDH#2 action built from the design of Frank DeHaas. I used a
McGowen 26" barrel with an 18" twist.
Last week I shot some 480 gr. plain base boolits pushed by 36 gr. of IMR 4198,
also I shot some Remington 45-70 Government 405 gr. SP out of it.
At 100 yds. from a bench I was shooting 2 1/2" groups in both cases, being a new rifle i had never shot before, I was elated.
Yesterday was another matter, shooting Lyman 457833A9 cast bullets sized
to .458 and weighing 402 gr. with gas check and pushed by 30 gr. IMR 4198 powder I was shoot 5 to 6" groups at 100yds. and more than double that at
200 yds. Interestingly the Remington factory was slightly less than 5" at 200 yds.
My guess is the boolit wasn't going fast enough to stabilize.
I would like to stick with the 402 gr boolit for this rifle since it is what I have and I would like to continue benching it. The heavier boolits are brutal.
Anyone have any suggestions and or a good load for this boolit weight?
Thanks,
John


Just went out and measured the twist on the 45-70 it is 1 in 14" just like my .458 Win. Mag.
Who knows what my thoughts were 25 years ago when I ordered this barrel.
According to my records I had good results with 402 gr. boolit in the .458 Win.
using 4198 at about 2400 FPS. Gunna hurt on the bench though.

[13Echo]

A twist that fast should stabilize even very heavy bullets at black powder velocities. Most BPCRs in 45-70 are using an 18" twist and easily stablize 540gr bullets or heavier. Some are using 16" twist for longer, heavier bullets like those designed by Dan Theodore for long range and very long range shooting. Check out the the Shiloh site on the topic "Tired of getting whipped by the wind."

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10293&start=0

Jerry Liles

[Nueces]

Welcome back to the fold, John.

I'm sure you know this, but I couldn't tell from your posts. To be sure you're dealing with known variables, it would be important to remove all copper fouling from your barrel after firing the Remington loads and before testing for accuracy with boolits.

Congratulations on that rifle. I always enjoyed FdH's work and have all his books. Last year, I bought an original copy of Keith's "Sixgun Cartridges and Loads" and found it inscribed by de Haas in the month of my birth. Cool, huh?

Mark

[Lloyd Smale]

first thing id try is a heavy gas checked bullet like the 500 rcbs and size it at least 459. dont know what the twist was on my #1 458 but it shot that bullet real well whether i shot it fast or slow.

[Johnw...ski]

Thanks for the replys Jerry, Mark and Lloyd,

I would really like to try and stay with the 400 gr boolit for recoil reasons since I would like to continue benching this rifle. I'll go to 500 gr. only as a last resort.

I have never fired a jacketed boolit through my .458 Win. and I built it so it has shot 100% lead period. Can't tell you the group size because I only shoot it offhand, it sure would hurt from the bench. However I manage to shoot very nice groups offhand and have with the 400 gr. boolit with a heavy load so it can't be that bad.

For now I think I will stay with the IMR 4198 and increase the load somewhat.

Thanks for the copper fouling suggestion Mark,

I had not thought of that but will address that issue before the next outing.
Now that I have used up that box of factory ammo that rifle will probably never see a jacketed boolit again.

Thanks,

John

[Ricochet]

Do you know your barrel's groove diameter and size your boolits appropriately? How far do they have to jump to engage the rifling? What sort of alloy and lube are you using? Can you see lead building up in the grooves at the muzzle? How about the weather, did it cool off from the first day to the second?

[quasi]

how big is the throat dia. of your reamer? Throat dia. can dictate a need for a bigger bullet dia.

[KCSO]

Although not perfect for the 1-14 twist you might try the 330 Gould express bullet at about 1600 fps. This should be easy on the shoulder and will hold up out to 200 yards or better. Not knowing your bore and chamber spec's I would try big first and start with a 459 or more bullet.

[MtGun44]

I have had excellent results in multiple rifles with 57.0 W748 and
either a Remington or Speer 405 j-bullet, or the excellent RCBS 405 GC
boolit with a magnum primer. This is a low pressure load, but will make
1750 from my Marlin SS GG.

Also, 10-12 Unique will usually shoot well in any .45-70 and is a real
pussycat to shoot.

Bill

[mroliver77]

JohnW, I you want I can send you some 333gr Lee Plain base Rf nose boolits to try. I shoot them in my Rem RB over WC820 OR imr3031 for low recoil fun fun fun walkabout loads. J

[Johnw...ski]

Do you know your barrel's groove diameter and size your boolits appropriately? How far do they have to jump to engage the rifling? What sort of alloy and lube are you using? Can you see lead building up in the grooves at the muzzle? How about the weather, did it cool off from the first day to the second?

Thanks for your reply,
I didn't plan to get this technical but here are the results the bore dia. is .4580
the grove dia is .4530 the throat (no rifling) is approx. .125 long and .4583 dia.
The boolits are sized to .458
The alloy is a big question but has never been a problem in other rifles.
The lube is Tamarak. There is no visible lead buildup. The weather was low 40's
both days.

I did notice what looked like unburned powder in the barrel, making me think I should have used a filler. I would prefer to not use a filler so my next step will be a heavier powder charge to better fill the case.

Thanks again,

John

[Johnw...ski]

how big is the throat dia. of your reamer? Throat dia. can dictate a need for a bigger bullet dia.

Thanks for your response,

The throat is approx .125 long and measures .4583 dia.
The boolits are sized to .458.

Thanks again,

John

[Johnw...ski]

Although not perfect for the 1-14 twist you might try the 330 Gould express bullet at about 1600 fps. This should be easy on the shoulder and will hold up out to 200 yards or better. Not knowing your bore and chamber spec's I would try big first and start with a 459 or more bullet.

Thanks for your reply,
I may have to look up the 330 Gould bullet.
I didn't plan to get this technical but here are the results the bore dia. is .4580
the grove dia is .4530 the throat (no rifling) is approx. .125 long and .4583 dia.
The boolits are sized to .458
The alloy is a big question but has never been a problem in other rifles.
The lube is Tamarak. There is no visible lead buildup. The weather was low 40's
both days.

I did notice what looked like unburned powder in the barrel, making me think I should have used a filler. I would prefer to not use a filler so my next step will be a heavier powder charge to better fill the case.

Thanks again,

John

[Johnw...ski]

I have had excellent results in multiple rifles with 57.0 W748 and
either a Remington or Speer 405 j-bullet, or the excellent RCBS 405 GC
boolit with a magnum primer. This is a low pressure load, but will make
1750 from my Marlin SS GG.

Also, 10-12 Unique will usually shoot well in any .45-70 and is a real
pussycat to shoot.

Bill


JohnW, I you want I can send you some 333gr Lee Plain base Rf nose boolits to try. I shoot them in my Rem RB over WC820 OR imr3031 for low recoil fun fun fun walkabout loads. J

Thanks for all the advice, back in the 80's when I was really into it I think I had every powder known to man (not really) but I am just getting back into shooting and am trying to keep it simple. Maybe two or three powders that I can use in multiple rifles and the same with boolits, so I am trying to make do with the molds I already own. When I sort this 45-70 out I still have an unshot .35 Whelen on a similar action to work on. I am hopeing that 4198 will work in at least three (.35 Whelen, 45-70, .458 Win. Mag.), 3031 is also a strong contender.

Thanks,

John

[Jon K]

John,

Size your boolit to .459, it will shoot a lot better.
Try 27 grains of 4198 w/405 govt. shoots real accurate @200m in a Marlin 1895 CB or in Trapdoor repro 1:20 twist, and comfortable. You could shoot all day and not feel any discomfort.

I can understand you want to work with what you have, lighter boolits work well, 300 & 350 grain @ 200. 3031, 5744 also work well in the 45-70.

Jon

:castmine:

[shotstring]

I haven't bought a mold to try this one yet, but my Ken Waters Pet Loads Vol II book lists the 302 gr Lyman 457191 loaded behind either 32 or 34 gr of IMR-4198 at 1,445 - 1,550 in a 458 Win Mag as providing excellent accuracy. A similar load may work very well for you in 45-70, although all his loads for 45-70 are for 400 gr and above. I know it's on my "things to try" list.

[MtGun44]

W748 is a good powder for .308, .223 and .45-70 with 405 gr loads. Not sure
about .35 Whelen.

Unique works pretty well in all pistols and is great for medium/low power
loads in most rifles.

10.0 Unique works well in almost any cartridge from .41 mag and up in case
volume. In any early-mid 1900s bottleneck mil cartridge it is mild and accurate,
often most accurate - pretty much the "universal load". Verify it is safe
pressure-wise in pistols other than .41 mag, .44 mag and .45 Colt, it is
safe and accurate in these three but near max for the .41 mag, warm/medium
in .44 mag and .45 colt.

Bill

[pdawg_shooter]

After five years of trying I have finally found THE load for my Marlin 1895g. Does everything I want done and is still shootable. I started with new Remington brass, annealed the first ¾ inch using the melted lead method, belled with a Lee expander and primed with CCI 200. The powder charge is 52gr AA 2495. I started with 48 and worked up with no signs of pressure. This is a compressed load, even using a 16 inch drop tube. The magic bullet is cast in a Lyman 451114 mould. The alloy is 17 parts pure lead, 2 ½ parts linotype, and ½ part tin. The bullet drops from the mould .451, 430gr and is ready for patching. I make my patches from 16lb green bar computer paper, cut 2.750 long on a 60* angle 1.500 high. I dip in water and wrap twice around the bullet. They are left to dry overnight, then lubed with BAC. Then the tails are clipped and the bullet is run through a .459 Lee sizing die. I seat them to an OCL of 2.580. These shoot clover leaf groups at 25 yards and into 1.75 at 100. This is with a Lyman 66 rear sight and factory front sight. Not bad for 55 year old eyes. Bullet performance on game is all one could ask for. I’ll not quit experimenting, but how does one improve on perfection?

[catboat]

Don't want to side track the thread, but...


Pdog wrote:

"The alloy is 17 parts pure lead, 2 ½ parts linotype, and ½ part tin."

And then you paper patched it.

If you are paper patching, why don't you use just plain soft lead. That way you get the expansion of the soft lead, and no leading from the paper patch. Maybe pure lead didn't shoot as well? If you are going for a harder bullet, wouldn't wheel weights do the same, and be less costly (at least they used to be <$)(?

Sorry for the side track.

[Sam Carp]

At our local Buffalo shoots some of the shooters are shooting 20gr. of 2400 and a 405 gr. boolit. Its a light load but it will stay on a 12"X12" piece of steel at 100 yards all day. Its fun to shoot and won't kick you around like factory ammo.

Sam