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Jetwrench
09-10-2005, 05:33 PM
OK Guys,
I just dropped a load on a new Grizly,9x19 bench lathe and some accessories.
And I would like some opinions as to this lathes short comings and virtues. And anything I should be aware of. I will most likly have more questions very soon. Thanks in advance. Jetwrench

Bret4207
09-10-2005, 06:47 PM
I've read you want to clean, clean,clean the new lathes. Then make sure everything is level, square and true. Beyond that it's a matter of you taking the time to make sure your set ups are accurate. Despite modern advertising to the contrary, exceptionly accurate and fine work can be done with relativly inexpensive machines.

floodgate
09-10-2005, 10:46 PM
OK Guys,
I just dropped a load on a new Grizly,9x19 bench lathe and some accessories.
And I would like some opinions as to this lathes short comings and virtues. And anything I should be aware of. I will most likly have more questions very soon. Thanks in advance. Jetwrench

Jetwrench:

Based on the ONE example I checked out a few years back, one fairly minor problem with the 9 x 19 may be the lack of a "tumbler gear", so the leadscrew always rotates the same way as the headstock. This means you can't set up to cut left-hand threads. My Smithy had this problem, but they offer an accessory gear plate so you can insert one more gear into the train and reverse the leadscrew for LH work. The word I hear is that Grizzly is the best of the importers and stand behind the stuff they sell. I've bought a number of accessories from them and have always been happy with them.

floodgate

Buckshot
09-11-2005, 05:30 AM
.............Jetwrench, congratulations! They're pretty neat machines and capable of quite a bit of work. I have only seen one up close and that was at Harbor Freight the other day. They were on sale and one was out on display. The toads, neanderthals, and cretins hadn't had a chance to mess it up or steal stuff off of it yet.

I was pretty impressed with it. A big brother to the 7" machines. The front prismatic V way on the bed appears to be as large as the one on my 11" Logan, and that's the one the saddle rides on. The rear one isn't as big but it's mainly just a guide for the tailstock and steadyrest.

Do a websearch and just type in '9x19' and you'll get a couple weeks worth of reading. Many places have tools, upgrades and modifications you can make. As Floodgate mentioned, a tumbler reverse would be one of my first mods. They have the instructions and parts sources to get this done. A VERY usefull improvement as it allows you to thread away from a shoulder, and also inside threading becomes much nicer. Let me tell ya, threading UP to a shoulder can be a real puckering situation.

Most new lathe owners spend the first year or so making stuff FOR the new lathe :D. I did! If you got it with the stand, you might want to plan on raising it up or do your machining sitting down. It must have been designed by pygmies. If it's going on a bench try to put at least 1/4" metal under it to sit on.

There are all kinds of neat stuff you can get, but my suggestion for the very first thing would be a quick change (QC) type toolposte. They make'm for the 7" & 9" lathes and they make a world of difference.

Get a MSC, Enco, Travers, J&L, Wholesale tool, and Rutland/Airgas catalogs. E-Bay will become your great good friend, too!

..............Buckshot

floodgate
09-11-2005, 12:13 PM
Buckshot:

"A tumbler reverse would be one of my first mods. They have the instructions and parts sources to get this done. A VERY usefull improvement as it allows you to thread away from a shoulder, and also inside threading becomes much nicer. Let me tell ya, threading UP to a shoulder can be a real puckering situation."

I think I've got to disagree with you there; that can be done without the tumbler, by inverting the tool (or mounting it right-side-up BEHIND the work, if your saddle has room at the back like the Myfords) and running the lathe in reverse; it is still a RH thread. A LH thread requires the leadscrew rotation to be reversed relative to the headstock, and that takes the interposition of another gear into the train. The South Bend type tumbler makes this a quick and easy proposition. On my Smithy, the mod requires rearrangeing the whole gear train.

floodgate

Jetwrench
09-11-2005, 03:31 PM
Guys,

I am listening to all of this Very closely. Buckshot, I ordered it with the stand I hope it wont be too short. Probably wont be as I am 5' 7" I am almost a pygmie myself :razz: Jetwrench

Buckshot
09-12-2005, 05:52 AM
............Floodgate, "I think I've got to disagree with you there; that can be done without the tumbler, by inverting the tool (or mounting it right-side-up BEHIND the work, if your saddle has room at the back like the Myfords) and running the lathe in reverse;"

........AH, good point. Well I handn't even thought of it but if it's a threaded spindle nose? I just checked the MSC and Enco catalogs and they show a M39x4.0 threaded spindle. Jet could have speced a camlock or L spindlenose, but I doubt it. Anything but top coming, counterclockwise spindle rotation might be iffy.

.............Buckshot

Willbird
09-12-2005, 06:34 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you cannot reverse the leadscrew what do yu do to reverse the FEED to face or turn in the opposite direction ??

I have done cautious reverse rotation work with a threaded spindle, as long as the chuck is tight you can get away with running a thread or acutting a chamfer.


Bill

floodgate
09-12-2005, 11:50 AM
Buckshot:

Yeah, I had the chuck unscrew itself a couple of times on my old Sears / Atlas 6-incher. Just had to remember to run it on TIGHT and not take too hard a cut. The Smithy and the 7 x 10/12's have bolt-on chucks; don't know about the 9 x 19/20's. I'd sure like to have a Camlock, though. Do you ever get up to Northern CA? I'm near the coast, 125 miles N. of San Francisco.

Willbird:

That is another situation where you need a tumbler or some other kid of reversing setup.

For those of you starting out with a new lathe, an excellent guide is South Bend's "How to Run a Lathe". A very useful edition was issued in 1942 for all the new machinists pressed into service for WW II. You can find copies at AbeBooks, and Lindsay (www.lindsaybks.com) has reprints. I've given several copies to people with new (or new, used) lathes.

floodgate

Buckshot
09-12-2005, 09:13 PM
...........That Southbend book is great, and there are several other inexpensive ones. Fact is, except for just a couple things, the way they did stuff in 1910 is pretty much the way a manual engine lathe is STILL run :D. We have way better cutting tools, QC boxes are common, and lathes run a lot faster but the basics are still basics.

...........Floodgate, well I have a brother in Halsey, OR and we usually fly. Used to have some friends who owned a dairy farm in a tiny little town on the Smith river, about 3 miles south of the CA-OR border in the redwoods, but they sold it a couple years ago.

...........Jetwrench, " I am listening to all of this Very closely. Buckshot, I ordered it with the stand I hope it wont be too short. Probably wont be as I am 5' 7" I am almost a pygmie myself Jetwrench

Well if it is, just get some pipe and weld some leg extensions on the bottom!

.........Buckshot

wills
09-12-2005, 09:18 PM
...........

...........Jetwrench, " I am listening to all of this Very closely. Buckshot, I ordered it with the stand I hope it wont be too short. Probably wont be as I am 5' 7" I am almost a pygmie myself Jetwrench

Well if it is, just get some pipe and weld some leg extensions on the bottom!

.........Buckshot

Sounds painful

Jetwrench
09-12-2005, 10:49 PM
Wills too funny!!!!!

I have one of Lindsays books. How to run an engine lathe, I plan to get a few more of his books. I have ran a larger enco lathe some where I used to work on aircraft,But I had help with the setups and that is where I come in a little light. I have all the precision tools and am well versed in there use. Lathe tools, setups and calculations are where I am lacking. Do most people still grind there own cutters still, or just use the inserts? At work I used the inserts or the brazed on cutters. I have some hss tool bits I think I will try my hand at making cutters if only for the education. More latter thanks. Jetwrench

Frank46
09-13-2005, 02:49 AM
Jetwrench, When I got my jet 13x40 I spent considerable time grinding a set of tool bits from 3/8" blanks. You know the drill, rough grind according to what specs for the material you'll be working on, then finish grind using finer wheel and then hone with stones. First cuts I did with the lathe were indexable carbide inserts. Great finish. But those tool blanks took so long to grind. My atlas 6" used 1/4" blanks and they were way easier to do. Spent many an hour hunched over a grinder doing tool bits, but this way it gives you a feel for what will work and what won't. Frank

Buckshot
09-16-2005, 02:58 AM
...........Jetwrench, "Lathe tools, setups and calculations are where I am lacking."

........Me too! I hated math with a purple passion and stopped taking math classes when I had taken the last one that was required. I guess if I need to figure a bolt circle, or the angle required to give a certain leade, or something besides simple addition, subtraction, multiplication or division I'll crack a book for that specific function:D

"Do most people still grind there own cutters still, or just use the inserts?"

.........That question has been asked on both the Home Shop Machinist's and the Practical Machinists boards a couple times. The concensus is that both have their place, but common HSS is still the best all round, for common materials to be turned.

For the home shop guy and his manual engine lathe HSS is inexpensive, easily shaped, and suitable for probably 99% of what the person is going to be doing. Lets face it, we're not in a production setting with a hulking 32" x 220" American Pacemaker turning freshly cast scaley manhole rings, pipe flanges or trueing up railcar tires.

I use mostly 1/4" HSS bits. They're much cheaper to buy then larger bits. I don't usually NEED larger bits and they're infinately easier to grind. There are a few good ole US of A makers out there and I'd suggest you stick with them. Of course ones from the UK or some other European countries are great too, but not as common. Most of the HSS bits I have came from E-Bay as 'lots', and many had been ground to particular shapes, although many were new.

I really don't think that a HSM can make use of the high priced powdered metal or heavy cobalt content bits, and care must be used in their grinding as cobalt IS toxic. Other then the toxic part, this is just my feelings. You can get a very nice laminated chart from Little locos that gives you SFM (surface feet/minuite) for various materials and common diameters. Plus it gives tool grinding angles for the various common materials. Home shop guys have a tendancy to turn too slow, which can affect your surface finish.

One of the problems with carbides is sharpening them. Big companies just toss the inserts or cemented carbides, but I don't. You have to have a diamond wheel or a 'green stone/wheel' which is silicone carbide to grind them. There are probably hundreds of different carbide formulations and grades where other metals or ceramic are used, besides straight carbide. And the 5 -6 basic carbides themselves are different and are combined to give different qualities.

In general, as a very basic of basics, carbides are brittle. They don't do well in interupted cuts or sudden shock loads. There are carbides more capable of handleing these types of cuts though. Also due to it's nature, if you were to put a very sharp edge or point on a carbide, it wouldn't last as long as the same on HSS. Lead and nose angles on carbide tend to be about 5 to 8*. Some materials being cut with HSS can have angles like 14*. Carbide has to be edge supported or it may snap off in heavy cuts.

Having said that, heavy cuts is where carbide does well, and also at high speeds. In the old days, lathe or other cutting tools were heat treated carbon steel, like a file to cut. The problem was that the heat generated in cutting could draw the temper and then it was like trying to cut with macaroni. As the advent of modern HSS allowed faster deeper cuts, so has the carbides and ceramics done the same.

I was reading about some cubic boron nitride tools (I think it was :D) which cuts well at 18,000 rpm, and at the cutting edge there is a continuous ball of fire from the heat. I've made sparks and red hot chips but no balls of flame for me, thank you very much! And higher speeds is why lathes these days have the spindle carried in ball or roller bearings, vs plain bearings. Plain bearing lathes can be superbly accurate, and there are many still doing it. But plain bearings just don't lend themselves to it, even though you car engine uses them, they aren't held to the tolerances of a lathe spindle. I'd also suppose that bearing technology has also allowed the switch.

"I have some hss tool bits I think I will try my hand at making cutters if only for the education."

..........I asked about tool grinding fixtures on machining boards and was pretty much told I need to learn how to grind'em by hand. Okay I suppose, but it's not like learning math vs using a calculator. At least to me anyway. I have been and will continue to grind my bits by hand until I can get a 'round-tuit' and make an accessory tilting and angle plate for my grinder. I'd just like to be able to have my bits AT and not ABOUT at what they're supposed to be.

Like sharpening drill bits. I can generally get a pretty good edge on 1/4" sizes and up doing it by hand, if I just need a hole of that general size. I bought a $75 Drill Doctor because I couldn't afford the $3200 for a Dariex or Black Diamond :D.

...............Buckshot

Willbird
09-16-2005, 06:53 AM
What Buckshot says about the carbide tools is all true, and my spin on it is the older lathes may have the RPM to run them, but the torque needed to pull the proper chipload just isnt there. The new lower priced lathes are pretty much the same deal. Carbide needs probably 2-4 times the HP to run as HSS especially negative inserts. They also cost 2-3 dollers per cutting edge, 9-16 dollars per insert, and you generally have to buy (10) inserts minimum, thats $90.00 - $160.00. yes there are some cheaper ones, but even at $50.00 for a box of 80 degree positive diamond shaped inserts that has only bought you (20) cutting edges. the same $50.00 will buy you a heck of a lot of good 1/4" HSS tool bits. probably enough to last you 10 years or more ob hobbiest type work.

carbide threading tools are very nice, and if there is ONE thing where it may be worth it that is it, if you chip one you can generally swap in a new insert and go back to work......threading tools are the only tools that actually require gaging while grinding too, most everything else is ground to eyeball measurements.

My 9" lathe takes 1/4" HSS bits, the Hendy takes 3/8" I think. I have been meaning to make a simple fixture and grind basic turning tool blanks on the surface grinder at work, MOST turning and facing can be done with the same tool. It would be nice to have a half dozen laying there already ground on both ends and ready to rock.

Bill

HTRN
09-16-2005, 11:48 AM
I think you guys are nuts playing with HSS. Carbide inserts, especially the no name brand TPG's are CHEAP. Often under a buck. For that 160 dollars, you can buy enough inserts to last you ten years. And it isn't so much the interrupted cuts, it's the shock loading. Thermal variations aren't kind to carbide either - you're better off machining dry, or just brushing some cutting oil on your work beforehand. Constant dabbing only cause thermal cycling which isn't too good for carbide, and it's even worse for CBN/Ceramic.

Buckshot, you ain't lived till you seen somebody machining Prehardened toolsteel being machined with CBN dry... At 600SFM.. The chips come off glowing...


HTRN

Jetwrench
09-16-2005, 12:10 PM
Well,just got off the phone with Overnight Transport, a UPS company while my lathe and stand is sitting on there docks in Shreveport it still wont be delivered until monday. The web sight says delivery today. So much for their being on time 97% of the time. Was really looking foward to getting it set up. :-x Really happy about it, does it show? Oh well rant over. Jetwrench

Jetwrench
09-16-2005, 12:37 PM
Buckshot,
I have some 1/4 inch and 3/8 inch HSS bits and a parting tool holder + tools. A drill chuck 5/8 cap with arbor couple of boreing bars that take HSS bits, will have to fab holders for them. Max tool size is 3/8 inchfor my lathe. Frank 46 said after grinding he hones for final finish, my question is does the edge have to be that fine? I have used a belt sander to finish the edge, this worked ok but at the time I was only roughing. For finnish work I went to the inserts. Jetwrench

Buckshot
09-16-2005, 04:03 PM
...........I think Willbird IS a machinist and possibly HTRN too. Kenjudo who is a member here is a working machinist in a huge facility. I've only been involved in this stuff seriously since Jan 04 when I got my 11x36 Logan/Powermatic. Most of my knowledge comes from reading books, the web, and other people's experience and also from the guy I bought my lathe from. I HAVE learned a bunch from 'just doing' on my lathe.

I did buy a 5 piece set of those carbide holders for the TPMM carbide inserts, and have used them a lot. Back when I bought my *** Chinese mill/lathe combo (NOT a Smitty) I had also bought a couple boxes of brazed carbide. That is what I'm using in that photo on the Hollowpointing thread. The one with the smoke? So as they mentioned, carbide's forte' IS being pushed. In that pic I was peeling off .125". For me, THAT is pushing :D. What was surprising to me was the finish I was getting. It appeared to be as good as a ground surface, and fine as it was for a finish surface.

"Frank 46 said after grinding he hones for final finish, my question is does the edge have to be that fine?"

I do too. The better the cutting edge, the better the finish you'll get. Usually, but it never hurts. As with a dull axe, you may be able to beat your way through a piece of wood, a keen blade will make much shorter work of the job and make it much easier. I have a relatively inexpensive Norton double sided bench stone I use for HSS. For carbides I have some diamond wheels for the Dremel, and then 3 flat diamond hones of 180, 220, and 320 grit.

The material you're working with will also determine how nice a finish you can get. A former membership type store went out of business and in the last week they had a deal on their nuts and bolts. All you could get in one of the bags was something like $5 or so. I filled several bags with the largest bolts they had. Mostly 1/2" and up. I wanted them for misc turning material. Most were grade 5, and lots were just common hardware grade (mystery metal).

A lot of that stuff was terrible. It was gummy and sticky type stuff that seemed to cut 'hairy' and to refuse any kind of nice finish. Cutting threads in it produced tiny little tears on the edge being cut (underside of the thread) with a HSS bit honed to razor sharpness. The only way to get a nice cut was to crank up the speed to hair raising rpms (for threading anyway).

For parting off I have a pocket carbide insert type taking NGTN inserts and 4 Micrograin 100, brazed carbide blades. The guy I bought the lathe from had me scared to death to part off, which re-inforced my experience in doing so in my combo machine. He would use a narrow short ground HSS bit to go in a bit and then used a hacksaw. I was in a machine tool place having a big sale as freeway construction was forcing them to move. I bought the 4 Micrograin 100 blades @ $25 ea and they were usually $38.

Since I had them, one time I thought I might as well use'em :D. I carefully set it up on center and perpendicular with minimum overhang. When I cranked in the cross slide to cut it just peeled off beautiful chips making 6's and 9's and just hissed like frying bacon. Now I part off in power crossfeed! It's a personal success that makes me all warm and fuzzy[smilie=l:

..............Buckshot

HTRN
09-16-2005, 05:42 PM
...........I think Willbird IS a machinist and possibly HTRN too.

There's no "possible" about it. :mrgreen:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/HTRN/me.jpg

Last job was running a Citizen CNC screw machine, making wire guides out of 52100... at 11,000rpm.. :shock: God, I hated that machine.


HTRN

No_1
09-16-2005, 06:28 PM
There's no "possible" about it. :mrgreen:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/HTRN/me.jpg

Last job was running a Citizen CNC screw machine, making wire guides out of 52100... at 11,000rpm.. :shock: God, I hated that machine.


HTRN

Htrn,
I would love about a few weeks on that machine! Imagine with the right material I could turn out a couple hundred thousand of solid bullets for my various rifles / pistols....

When I worked in Charleston at the Navy Shipyard, they had a pretty impressive machine shop. Lots of my apprenticeship buddies were inside machinist there. I used to hang around their shop when times were slow in my shop and make little "things" during backshift. I remember even back then thinking of making solids on the screw machines they had there. Never could get to those machines since they were always tied up making tons of screws.

I started machining when I was pretty young. Seems my dad was in the Navy and out on the ship mostly. His brother (#1 uncle to me) was a serious gearhead and fabricator extrordoneer (sp). Around the time I turned 8 or so, he started taking me on his "junkets" to get me out of my mother's hair (and keep her from killing me). One of his buddies had an automotive machine shop that #1 uncle worked out of. I took a liking to that place and started work there (sweeping floors) for 4 soda's a day during the summer. The older partner at the shop was named Theodore (but we all called him "unk") and he took a liking to me. Over time he showed me everything there was to know in that shop. I worked there on and off and when I got out of high school I went to work there full time. I left there for an apprenticeship with Uncle Sam and eventually became an outside machinist but spent some time loaned to the inside machine shop cause I had knowledge. When that place started shutting down, I was move to florida and given a job with a very small group of people who did catapult and arresting gear work on the aircraft carriers. We did repairs and one-off prototype work. With a full fab facility funded by Uncle Sam at my disposal you can only imagine the thoughts that went thru my head. Anyway, I have worked my way up the ranks and now am an Equipment Specialist for the group. I still get machine time when I "need" it but not as much as I would like.

I will second the thoughts on those that have spoke before me. HSS is the way to go when you are learning. They are realitively cheap compared to carbide and with a bench grinder you can grind them to fit what you are doing. Solid carbide bits last longer but you need special wheels on your grinder. "Cemented" carbide is less expensive than solid or indexible. Indexible is the way to go if you can afford it. But trust me these things are like bullet moulds. The more you get the more you want. The only other advise I will offer is be careful with those machines gentlemen, they have no feelings for you. I watched a girl get her jaw and half her face tore off by a chuck key from a lathe but that is a story for later....

Jetwrench
09-16-2005, 06:58 PM
Well guys,
I have to take back post #17 Overnight called me back at about 1:30 or 2:00 and said they would bring it out anyway, :grin: MUST have been my winning disposition on the first phone call :grin: I now am happy again. Now if yall will excuse the abrupt parting, I have some setup and alot of clean up to do. I will keep you posted as to my progress. Jetwrench

floodgate
09-16-2005, 10:18 PM
Jetwrench:

(Are you an A&P mechanic?) For honing tools, even carbide ones, get a set of the "EZE-LAP" diamond stones - patches about 3/4" x 1 1/4" of diamond-imbedded material on 3/4" x 6" plastic handle, color-coded in Coarse/Medium/Fine and, separately, Extra-Fine. You'll find them in the knife-and-fishhook sharpening display at the local sporting goods store (or at MSC, ENCO, etc., etc). They'll cost you $10 - $15 the set, and well worth 10 times that. They will touch up a worn lathe bit, break the edges and make top-vent grooves on mould blocks, and about anything else you need (they'll even touch up knives or fishhooks). I have yet to wear one out, even after ten years of BRUTAL use.

I look forward to your first tries on the lathe; but - be warned - you'll end up spending three times its cost on tooling; just ask Buckshot!

floodgate

Jetwrench
09-16-2005, 11:03 PM
Floodgate,
OK A&P no but have been signed off for both since 91. I did hold a repairmans cert in aircraft finish and sheetmetal and was training for machieneing I have extensive training in heavy maintainence and flight controls. After 9-11 the place I was working at closed. If I have to leave my kids and go on the road I choose to millwright as it provides more income with less time spent on the road, away from my family. If the place I used to work at reopens I will take the test and get my cert. As for stones I have EZE-LAP in coarse, fine and ultra. I have the orange and black and the grey and black Norton bench stones also the soft white arkansas white stone. I agree that the diamond stones are the best. I have been looking in the catalogs and if I had 3 jobs I could still spend more than I could make. :-D Jetwrench

Jetwrench
09-16-2005, 11:24 PM
OK guys I unpacked it got it in my modest shop, read small 12 x 28, by myself, checked to see if the damn thing would turn on, it did. [smilie=w: Damn shure hot down here, just rained, temp 83 humidity 82. I am dripping. Son 11 yrs old thinks this is just " the coolest". Told him if his hands got on it when I wasnt looking he would have a nice new cast all his friends could sign. :lol: Think he got the point, but shop stays locked when I am not in there anyway, too much money in that building to leave the doors open. More later as I am tired and want an early start tommorrow. Jetwrench

Willbird
09-17-2005, 12:06 AM
Well for my 9" south Bend that was made for 1/4" HSS steel tools they are the perfect choice.............I would not choose that lathe to run for profit, it is a piece of history that will do nice work if you have time.

To make parts on a for profit basis heck yea carbide inserts are the way to go, and use a machine with tons more horsepower and rigidity to take advantage of the carbide inserts.

Doing for profit work I would not diddle around with manual lathes or mills either, if you make it once on CNC the next time you run the same or very similar job you really make $$. It is nice too if you want to take off .0001 you just change a digit in an offset. And when the machine is making chips you are writing a program and assembling tools for the next job.

Bill

Linstrum
09-17-2005, 10:17 AM
One of the rules about lathe work is not to sandpaper parts using your lathe, and if you do, to completely cover up the ways! I do most of my sandpapering in a drill press after the machining is done in the lathe. However, some parts are only practical to sand in the lathe, so for those, cover the ways. When you are done sanding, clean, clean, clean! The precision of your lathe is in those finely finished ways! Sanding can be extremely dangerous since the paper will grab and wrap up, and I know guys who have had fingers sprained, twisted, and bent sideways doing it. One guy had his index finger pulled off but was lucky enough to get it put back on, but the surgeon had to replace one bone joint with a piece of Teflon.

Your work is only as accurate as you can measure, so you might think about getting a cheap one-inch gauge block (jo block) and an internal hole gauge to check the accuracy of your measuring tools. Take them with you if you buy calipers or second hand micrometers to check their accuracy before you get them. I have never heard of new high quality micrometers being bad, but having the gauges allows you to practice using the measuring tools because their accuracy depends on your “touch” using them. I have seen guys crank micrometers down hard until the readout was what they wanted! If you are going to do a lot of hole boring get an inexpensive set of telescoping gauges to use in conjunction with a micrometer to measure internal dimensions.

Another indespensible item is a 60° fish tail gauge for thread cutting. It is useful for several things, like getting the threading tool bit at right angles to the lathe axis and as a template for sharpening the tool point to a 60° angle. One end and each side of the fish tail have 60° notches precision ground in them and when sharpening a tool bit you insert the point into a notch and then hold it up to the light and see how well it matches the angle by looking for a sliver of light coming along the sides of the tool point. When setting the angle of your threading tool bit in the tool holder, you hold the fish tail up against the side of the part to be threaded, crank the tool point into a side notch and then adjust the tool angle to match the notch.

I use Super Mo-Max Cobalt brand high speed steel tool bits. They are a bit poisonous when ground if you breath the dust, so keep away from it. I know a few retired tool grinders who are in their 80s who are in good health, so it isn’t that bad. I hadn’t needed to buy any since 1970 until now (Yeah! They DO really last!), and I don’t know yet if the Mo-Max stuff made nowadays is the same as the ones made 35 years ago. I just found a few made back then and grabbed them up just in case. Using Super Mo-Max Cobalt bits you can run your chips blue without needing to sharpen as often, but they do last longer when you run your chips cooler. When my Dad worked for Abex Corp machining hydraulic system parts for the Saturn V moon rockets, they were told to run the chips blue to speed up getting the parts done because they thought the Russians were going to beat us to the moon. That is where I got all my old Super Mo-Max Cobalt bits, they threw them out when they got too short for the tool holders.

I would recommend learning to grind tool bits by hand because it saves time after you get the hang of it. Except for thread cutting and other form tool bits, I have probably measured the angle of a lathe tool bit half a dozen times in the last forty years, if even that many times. I dare say that for 90% of general lathe turning work, the angles are not critical at all, just have some relief on both sides of the point for general purpose bits so that they will cut going either direction and going in or out. I also learned to sharpen all my drills by hand, but one thing I did to the tool rest for the grinder is to scribe in deep grid lines on it at a 118° angle measured from a line parallel to the grindstone shaft. Some folks recommend 135°, but that is best for hard steel, like if you are going to drill a hole in a file with a cobalt steel drill. I scribed the tool rest so I could line up the side of a drill parallel with the lines when sharpening drills by hand. The only time I hone a cutting edge is when I am cutting really slippery stuff like brass, or when I want a super good finish like for making bearing surfaces and press fit parts. Honing the edge was always necessary back in the good old days when the only cutting tool steel around was tempered high carbon steel. The temperature of the tool bit from friction had to be kept below 350° F to keep from softening it, or if you had a foot pedal lathe and your wife was supplying the power. It doesn’t make that much difference with modern high speed steel and a ½ or ¾ hp electric motor doing the work. Don’t hone your bits with sandpaper on a piece of glass or other hard flat surface. The paper compresses enough to allow the grit surface to contact the sharp edge and round it off a little and dulls your bit. I know a lot of folks do it that way, but when you hone a tool bit on a diamond lap and then cut brass you can really tell the difference between that one and one honed on sandpaper! Brass is one of the bitchiest materials there is to cut. When tapping threads in it, brass will grab a tap that will otherwise thread steel just great, and hold the tap so tightly you can’t back it out. It is just plain cranky stuff, especially the tin and phosphor bronzes, as well as the silver-containing electrical contact and bearing grades.

I know this is a lot and there is even more, but you’ll get the hang of it. I love doing lathe and milling machine work, and you probably will, too. Have fun!

carpetman
09-17-2005, 10:50 AM
Linstrum---I always reckoned if Wiley Coyote had been using Super Mo-Max brand iinstead of Acme he would have caught the roadrunner.

StarMetal
09-17-2005, 11:16 AM
Carpetman

Actually if Wiley Coyote was driving a high performance big block Chevy he'd caught that *** Mopar Roadrunner. har har har

Joe

Scrounger
09-17-2005, 11:25 AM
Carpetman

Actually if Wiley Coyote was driving a high performance big block Chevy he'd caught that *** Mopar Roadrunner. har har har

Joe

Wiley IS driving a big block chevy, he has 29 illegals in the trunk, and he is leaving Deputy Al and Trp. Brett way back in his dust trail. He will evade capture unless CarpetMan herds his sheep onto the road to block traffic or JumpTrap considers it his civic duty to build up a barricade with his tractor...

HTRN
09-17-2005, 12:58 PM
No 1, trust me, no you DON'T. the chips get in everywhere. And this is micromachining where everything is done under microscopes. Workholding was done with a fixed bushing, and I would spend more time looking at stuff under an eyeloupe than anything else. I spent ALOT of time cleaning collets, and changing inserts. Keep in mind that this is the BOSS'S machine. You make what you're told to make. :cry:

That said, I heard about a micro turning center for sale, might be just the thing to make "copper paperweights" :cool:

And I still say you guys are nuts. With the price of used indexible insert tooling and the low, lowwww cost of no name TPG's, I don't see the point.


HTRN

StarMetal
09-17-2005, 01:02 PM
HTRN

That had to be very hard on your eyes. In a way I feel sorry for you having to do that kind of tedious work.

Joe

Linstrum
09-17-2005, 04:15 PM
Hey, there, Carpetman,


Linstrum---I always reckoned if Wiley Coyote had been using Super Mo-Max brand iinstead of Acme he would have caught the roadrunner.

Acme is just Mo-Max spelled backwards in Coyotese! Like you said, he needed Super Acme cobalt to catch Mr. Roadrunner instead of plain Acme.

Hey, HTRN, I'm definitely going to take your advice and look into carbide insert tooling again. I do use brazed tungsten carbide tool bits, though. I have a holder that uses the type of inserts ground with a chip breaker groove to give them a positive rake angle for six cutting edges on an insert instead of three. I have a box of ten inserts that a buddy gave me probably twenty years ago. A lot of my work involves making gear milling cutters and I don't have a CNC lathe to single-point cut the complex involute curves needed on the gear cutter tooth profiles. I do it by form tool cutting the involute profile on the milling cutter blanks, and I grind the lathe tool bits by hand to the curves needed. That would be b!+¢h to grind a carbide insert to the right shape, so I use the old fashioned cobalt high speed steel instead. I also machine cast iron castings, and I'll tell you what, I don't know HOW cast iron was machined before the invention of tungsten carbide! The cementite glaze on a gray iron casting is even hard on carbide.

I also make boolit moulds as well as solid copper and brass bullets, and I use form tools with the profiles needed for much of that work, and again, without a CNC lathe it is hard to single point cut those shapes. I don't make that stuff for a living and the cost of getting CNC conversions for my lathe and milling machine is not justified for the amount of work I do, so for that I still use high speed steel bits for ease of grinding them myself. HSS tool bits have their uses.

Willbird
09-17-2005, 04:37 PM
HTRN the TPG inserts will not turn and face as nice as an 80 degree hand ground hss tool bit will.

I generally use a razor sharp tool, if I put on a radius it is with a hand stone, what I do with my south bend a half dozen 1/4" hss bits last me years and years. Actually I still have dozens and dozens my dad bought at auctions.

also the holders for the tpg arent given away either, the ones they make to go in the standard toolholders suck rocks, and the quick index toolpost aisnt as easily positioned to do weird stuff as the old standard toolpost.


Bill

slughammer
09-17-2005, 06:41 PM
And I still say you guys are nuts. With the price of used indexible insert tooling and the low, lowwww cost of no name TPG's, I don't see the point.
HTRN

When those "low cost" TPG's start popping because we're running them on old rickety machines will you send us some of your surplus?

HTRN
09-17-2005, 08:11 PM
HTRN

That had to be very hard on your eyes. In a way I feel sorry for you having to do that kind of tedious work.

Joe

Between the price of gas, the long commute and the ulcers the job was starting to give me, I quit in July. I go to an interview this week for costco - two miles from the house, complete medical and dental, and no production quota's to meet. Honestly, I'd love to go back to working in a shop, but when I can make more money with no commute to speak of, in a climate controlled warehouse, it's kinda hard to find the motivation.

Willbird - you're still using a rocker toolpost?! :shock: Boy, you have more patience than I do. That was the first thing I ****canned and replaced with an Aloris.

Slughammer - if you're machine is so worn out and sloppy that you're shattering carbide, sell it for scrap and get a decent lathe. :mrgreen: I haven't bought consumables in a while - the Clausing's been down with a busted hydraulic line and I either had the money, or the time, just not both at the same time! You should check out J&L, MSC, Travers, etc, website for the specials and clearance items.


HTRN

Willbird
09-17-2005, 08:53 PM
HTRN, I'm old school, been making chips for 35 years of my 40. And an aloris on a ww2 era 9" south Bend toolroom lathe powered by flat belts would just be WRONG in more ways than one hehe.

Bill

HTRN
09-18-2005, 02:36 AM
You're about the only guy I heard of lately that still uses the damn rocker tool post. It just takes too long, and takes too much time to fiddle with.

I'm getting to the point where I like indexible insert tooling for the mill, especially the larger sizes - I have a load of them in 1/2 and up, conviently where carbide endmills start to get expensive. :mrgreen: The trick is to get the milling cutters that take the common lathe shapes and not the high performance milling shapes like APKT's.


HTRN

Bret4207
09-18-2005, 08:51 AM
My maching is mosty farm repair type stuff and small gun parts, pins and such. For that my old 6" Atlas works OK. Biggest propblem is the tool post mount on the cross slide has some play. I can tighten the gibs till she won't move and can still feel the play, to say nothing of what a DI shows me. I use 3/8" tools, mostly becasue they seem more available where I get them than 1/4", and because I am somewhat ham handed and 1/4" is too small to handle when grinding a short tool. I bought a bunch of stuff from Penn-tool and Grizzly a few years back when I needed some measuring tools and such. The chinese type tools work within their design, but you have to be patient and cross check everyting. That being said, no way could I have justified a 0-6" mic set or bore gauges from Starret or B+S. They work OK for engine rebulids and whatnot. The made in India or Antartica or where ever repalcable carbide tooling I bought on the other hand was pretty much a complete waste of $$$. It's OK for hogging off the diameter on, say, a grade 2 bolt. For anything above grade 3 or for any material thats shows the least hardeding is just crumbles and the little screw loosens up. The boring bar works OK. I'm going o get some brazed carbide tools and maybe some of the better quality USA inserts and see if they work better. I'm also going to get some pre-ground HSS tooling. At least I know they work.

HTRN-If you think the rocker tool post is old fashioned, (I even bought an Aloris type for the Atlas), what would you think of my Atlas SHAPER?

HTRN
09-18-2005, 10:52 AM
Shapers have their uses- making square ended keyways, for example. But, I'll stick with a vertical mill for everything else.

Besides, have you seen what shaper tooling goes for on Ebay? Yeesh.


HTRN

Jetwrench
09-19-2005, 12:32 AM
HTRN,
I have some rocker tool post tooling and will buy the tool post as soon as I can. I believe they have their place. That said I will also get tool holders and inserts As they also have their place. With the exception of air craft machiening I have allways been handed a job ( can you do it ? Ill git er done, so I made it happen ). What I would like now is to have a greater understanding of the complete feild of machieneing. You dont like this or that because you know it and have time in it. I dont, I am very thankful for your input and want all you are willing to give but I want to know all the aspects as I am sure you understand.

Tpr.Bret,

Hope this dosent sound like bragging but all my precision tools are Starrett except one Brown and Sharp. I have id and od that will triple any thing my lathe will ever see. I am well set up in the measuring dept. I have fond thoughts of building my own shaper as per lindsay's book. As I think it would be useful. I think learning low cost low tech makes for better high cost high tech ability. You know " those who dont know the past......"

Floodgate,
Are you an A&P or just well versed. If so what have you worked on , I LOVE aircraft.


And finaly every one here has a unique understanding of shooting and reloading because we even make our bullets. that is the aproach I want to take in machieneing.

I really cannot thank you all enough, PLEASE keep this going as I am learning alot by just listining. Jetwrench

Willbird
09-19-2005, 06:42 AM
Well as to the rocker tool post, as I said my lathe is vintage, I have several ceegar boxes full of 1/4" HSS tools, the Aloris costs MONEY, and once again MOST carbide tooling is negative rake, which does not work well on a 2hp 9" lathe. The Rocker style toolpost can be easily moved to any angle, as can the Aloris, BUT it occupies a much smaller footprint while at a weird angle than the aloris does.

I LOVE Aloris toolposts for job shop type work on bigger machines, I have run many short prodo turret lathe type turning jobs with them......they just don't fit into what my 9" south bend is used for. When I buy a 13" gear head lathe with more HP I'm quite sure it will have an Aloris style toolpost on it.

As to shapers, one thing the shaper is good for is squaring blocks, it is a fully automatic tool, it will machine a surface flat and square while the one man in a one man shop is doing something else.

My Shaper uses.................drum roll..........1/4" Hss tool bits hehe


Bill

floodgate
09-19-2005, 12:20 PM
Jetwrench:

"Floodgate,
Are you an A&P or just well versed. If so what have you worked on , I LOVE aircraft."

No, not even a driver (though my wife is, or was, some years back). But I've been around them all my life, have friends who are A&P's, and spent maybe a couple thousand hours riding around in big ones and little ones. Was in meteorological research, mostly in light singles and twins, but also got to fly around tropical storms with Navy and USAF weather teams in WC121's, C130's and P3's, over the Atlantic and Pacific. Lotsa fun...

And bac to topic (sorta), I use both HSS (7/16" in the Smithy - and they ARE tedious to grind!) and brazed carbide in an Aloris-type toolpost (I HATE rocker toolposts!). Those EZE-LAPs really do a fine job of touching up the carbides - I've even cleaned up small edge chips with them.

floodgate

Jetwrench
09-19-2005, 05:22 PM
Floodgate,
I have worked on Boeing 727, 737 and 747. Also Douglas DC-9 and MD80. Love the Boeing, Douglas aircraft SUCK. Worked for a guy who did crop dusting for a while, he had 1 twin and 3 singles. His idea of maintence and repair led me bid him fairwell.

As for the lathe, cleaning / oiling, cleaning / oiling and so on and so forth. Tried the coarse EZE-LAP on a HSS cutter and I am very pleased. I have seen a few things I will have to fix on the lathe, gear alignment and such. Nothing to make me curse so far. I will wait until I get the gears sorted out before I make my first cuts. More later. Jetwrench

Linstrum
09-19-2005, 06:25 PM
When the chips are down, you know Jetwrench has used his new lathe!

Jetwrench
09-19-2005, 07:13 PM
Linstrum,
It was when I went to use the lathe for a ceremonial first cut that I noticed that one of the change gears is not on square, it has about 1/8 " of wobble. So I stopped right there came in the house for my evening welcome for the wife. Now that task is performed I am going back to the shop to fix this problem ( I hope ) and make that cut. I will be back later with the report. Jetwrench

floodgate
09-19-2005, 09:39 PM
Jet:

My first real job in 1950 was bucking rivets on the first few DC-6B's in the Douglas plant in Santa Monica; I was small enough that I could squeeze into the fuel cell space in the wings; had to learn to dodge the drills coming through. Alongside us was the line retrofitting DC-3's with the larger vertical fin and fairing of the final version. Later worked in the engineering loft, helping run data on the MX-656 (X-2) "Stiletto" supersonic bird (which never worked well). My wife-to-be (and still is 51 years later), made what must have been United's last transcontinental commercial DC-3 flight (with multiple refuelling stops) from CA east to NY for our wedding.

WHO'S an old F...?

floodgate

Jetwrench
09-20-2005, 12:49 AM
Floodgate,
Never saw a DC-6, but I have taken the DC-8 FAM course. I can tell you that I was not looking forward to working on that thing. Have seen 2 DC-3 aircraft, those were kind of cool, one was flying in 2000 believe it or not. It landed at our airport fueled and left, at least from a distance it looked to be in A-1 shape. The other one I saw had no engines and was in the grass you know the rest. I have been in the wings on 727, 737 and the center on 727 and DC-9. The DC-9 and 737 it was always fuel quantity. On the 727 some probes but mostly leaks and pulling the bladders for recert. God that was fun. :roll: You know its weird but most people who start off on Douglas aircraft like them, most people who start on Boeing hate Douglas. I guess its all in what you feel confortable with.


OK now to the lathe, pulled the change gear and it had some shaveings behind it, cleaned it up and put it back together it still has runout but it is alot better. will have to fix that later. It was at this point that I ran smooth out of self control, just had to make a cut. Had it set up from the eariler aborted start so I fliped the switch and made a cut. Adjusted the stedy rest and made another. And a few more after that. Just trying to get used to the machiene right now so nothing fancy. Not sure I like the steady rest, I can see that live center getting alot of use later on. Or I may just try to learn to like the steady, dont know yet. Well getting late here, more tommorrow. Jetwrench

Willbird
09-20-2005, 06:39 AM
On live centers, I have never been one to hang things out unsupported, people would laugh when I had a 1" dia turn sticking out 2" with a live center in it, but my stuff never pulled out of the chuck, and I think my lathe will probably outlast theirs :-)

Bill

Jetwrench
09-22-2005, 05:37 PM
Guys,
Sorry about the absence of late but the lathe stuff is put on hold for now while Rita is on the way. I have to prep the place and see I have what I need for this new monster. The east side of the current projected path would put this thing comming right over my house. I guess we will see just how this works out. Talk to you folks later, got things to do now. Jetwrench

Bret4207
09-23-2005, 11:38 AM
Thoughts and prayers with you and yours.

Jetwrench
09-23-2005, 08:25 PM
Tpr Bret,
thanks much for the kind words. more later Jetwrench

Frank46
09-25-2005, 03:15 AM
Buckshot, hand grinding tool bits. When I lived on long island new york, I used to haunt
one machinery supply house. Since he was close to both grumman and republic aircraft
companies he always had a HUGE selection of tool bits. There were also loads of tables with what I used to call the close-out tables. Tool bits, drills, cutters of all types, grinding wheels, carbide cutters & tool bits and God knows what else. Naturally the close out tables drew me to them because of their prices. My kennedy tool box has one drawer full of tool bits. M-2, 5% cobalt and 10% cobalt and a couple tantun.
As you know the M-2 bits make great finishing tools and are way easier to grind than the 5-10% cobalt. But these were CHEAP. Besides at the time I had (and still do) a sears craftsman/atlas 6" incher. Since I worked rotating shifts I'd bring a few unground blanks to work and rough and finish grind them. Then hone them when I got home. The owner of the store used to supply wolfgang droge the guy who started making the sharps replicas in farmingdale long island. Wolfgang over the years had given him about 5-6 farmingdale sharp's which he had hanging on his office wall. I brought a krag in one day and needed some taps. He invited me into his office and asked how he should clean the sharps. Since they were unfired I gave him a short list of the stuff he'd need. Since leslie edleman's (long islands largest now defunct gun store) was only a few blocks away he went and bought what he needed and I showed himwhat to do. That was quite a few years ago. Wondered where the sharp's are now??. Sorry to have rambled on so. But even with the jet have still gone and ground a basic set of 3/8" blanks. Sure wish I had foresight as I could have bought a bunch of the indexable carbide inserts. Darn. Frank

Buckshot
09-25-2005, 09:08 AM
..........Frank, there are a couple places around here like that. One is IPS and another is Reliable, who is a big E-Bay seller. I was high bidder on a Kurt D688 vise. Rather then pay to have that anchor shipped, I drove the 38 miles to Irwindale to pick it up. They have several large buildings as their main line is buying and selling machines. Some they re-furb and others they just clean up.

I didn't know it until I went there but they have a retail storefront too. Lots of their stuff is for older manual machines so they have shelf after shelf full of turret lathe tooling. They also sell measuring instruments and about anything else, some new but mostly used stuff.

All the cutting tools they sell by the pound. Drill bits, end mills, reamers, countersinks, inserts (used), etc. All the HSS type stuff is $3.50/lb and carbide is $4.50/lb. They're all just in big bins. My eyes glazed over and I think I forgot to breath for several minutes as I got a bit light headed :D. Some of the stuff in the bins is new and still in their cardboard tubes or packaging.

I picked up 5 cardboard tubes that were rubber banded together and they contained new core drills. I didn't know at the time they were core drills. I thought they were some type of drill reamer thing. They were 3 fluted and the end was tapered down like a reamer and were non-centercutting. Then I picked up a bunch of dipsealed resharpend endmils, and, and, and. I had about 25 lbs and had to put some back as I didn't want to spend that much and use the card.

..............Buckshot

Jetwrench
09-26-2005, 12:27 AM
Guys,
Still no elect here, am on mother-in-laws comp so for now will post in off topic. But keep them coming as I am going to need it. Thanks Jetwrench

Frank46
09-26-2005, 03:10 AM
Brett, if you still feel the play with the gibs fully tightened you may need the acme thread bushing replaced on the compound. Atlas/clausing still sells replacement parts. But you should see the prices!!!!!!!. Last catalog I had said that they do not have the patterns for some of the castings. I have a milling attachment for my 6" and the price from when I bought it untill now has about doubled. Thats one reason I never sold the 6" when I got the jet. Very handy. I used it to clean up a sight base for a paramount target sight for use on my #4MK2. Few minutes and away she went. Picked up the base in a gun store junk box. He didn't know what it was for but I sure did. Even came with the longer ejector screw and other mounting bolt. I paid $145 for a brand new paramount backsight still in the box. Frank

Frank46
09-26-2005, 03:32 AM
Buckshot, unfortunately they don't have places like that here in LA. Last time I dealt with a machine shop supply house down here I had ordered a can of 1000 grit lapping compound. Price was $24. When it came in the price had mysteriously jumped to $30.
I was told then that it was for a broken case charge. I bitched a bitch and got it for $24, but that was the last time I dealt with them.
Jetwrench, if you are short on bucks look at the phaseII catalog. They make tool holders. I bought one at Christmas a couple years ago (think it was a wedge type) on sale from enco. Way cheaper than their catalog prices. Comes with either 4-5 tool holders. Very rigid compared to the rocker type. But sometimes the rocker will work where the other won't. Glad to hear that all are well. Frank

Buckshot
10-09-2005, 06:52 AM
............So okay, what have you made? :D

..............Buckshot

TCLouis
10-09-2005, 09:15 AM
I was at a store and spotted a variety of lapping compound including some 1200. I asked the owner what he would take per can . . . "Well does 2 bucks a can seem reasonable", was his reply. I snagged several cans in avariety of grits.

Shoulda bought it all.

Gotta love a place filled with old TVA surplus stuff in a community that does not have a need for such things.

Jetwrench
10-09-2005, 09:48 PM
Buckshot,
OK so far only thing I have made is 4 adapters for dial indicator clamps. Now I can use 1/4 inch clamps with the c clamp instead of the 5/16. But I must confess I did not cut the threads I used a die. As it stands that is all I will be able to do for a while. I have to leave for work in the am. I will be in Belle Chase for the next 10 to 11 weeks. Will be working on 600 pumps (me and 10 other guys). Just got the news Friday, dont know why they want me to work, dont they know I LOVE my off time? :-P At least I will be able to buy some more tooling. Anyway I will see yall when I get back. Jetwrench

Buckshot
10-10-2005, 07:10 AM
...............Jetwrench, well you just try to make the best of it. If ya gotta be away from home, work all the OT they'll give ya. It'll keep you out of trouble and you'll have some 'extra' when you get home.

Last week I bought 6 feet of 5/8" 360 alloy brass. It was on sale so wasn't too expensive. I bought it mainly because it's just so pleasing and soul satisfying to turn. I don't have anything in mind for it right now other then I thought I might make some new ML'ing jags and rammers.

............TCLouis, sometimes stuff like that happens. It's a lucky man who's in the right place at the right time to have it happen to him!

...........Buckshot