30-40 issues

[Battis]

I slugged the bore of my Krag again (that makes about eight times) and I keep coming up with .3095. I tried .309 jacketed bullets and they were coming out sideways. I just bought a batch of .312 cast bullets (160 grs) and sized them down to .311. I only loaded 10 rounds and they all chambered and fired, but I made the mistake of trying to test out the load (27 grs H4895) AND set up a new 1903 front sight. I should have just fired to see if they grouped but I kept adjusting the sight. Of course the holes in the paper were all over the place but at least they were nice and round.
I loaded up a dummy round using the .312 (not sized to .311) and it chambered fine. If it chambers, it should fire - correct?

[7br]

You might check the muzzle. I have my dad's old argentine that was cleaned by some recruit with three left hands. It slugs about .312 through most of the bore and .315 at the muzzle. shoots jacketed fine. Cast boolits tumble past 25 yards. Just my experience.

[Char-Gar]

I am certain I have posted this in response to one of your Krag questions before. But for the final time:

Krag throats are large. Use cast bullets as large as will chamber freely in your rifle. I use .313 to .314 bullets in my four Krag rifles. .312 bullet will most assuredly be fine in your rifle.

That said, a .309 bullet fired down a .3095 barrel will not keyhole (hit the target sideways) unless there is something wrong with the barrel, such as deeply pitted with sections of the rifling missing. An undersized jacketed bullet by .0005 - .0020 will not deliver optimum accuracy but they should not turn in flight. There is something else wrong going on with your rifle. You need to run that down.

[Battis]

I get it - use as large a bullet as will chamber. Which means what - keep buying bullets and molds in increments? A bore should have a bullet-size limit, correct? And from what I've read, that should be around .312 for a bore of .3095.
Then, you might say, you have answered your own question...again.

[Char-Gar]

Let's do a short primer on bullet fit, because I don't think you have it yet.

1. The bore size is almost irrelevant with cast bullets. You can push oversized bullet down the barrel with no negative consequences.

2. The critical dimension is the barrel throat. A bullet needs to fit the throat as close as possible without shaving lead when it enters the throat. A clearance of .0005 to .0001 is all you need. The reason this is important is because a cast bullet that is a good fit to the throat will enter the barrel straight and not cockeyed.

3. If you use a bullet so large the case neck it to large to chamber the round freely then you have another problem. The loaded round need about .0005 to .0001 to allow the brass to spring away from the bullet, freeing it to go on it way into the throat and barrel. If this clearance is not there, high pressure can be induced as the brass can't spring away from the bullet.

To recap...

1. use a bullet that fills the throat but does not shave lead.
2. As long as the loaded round doesn't chamber hard due to an enlarge neck, you have no problems.
3. In a few cases, to get a bullet large enough to fill the throat and not enlarge the neck too much, you need to neck turn the brass a little to reduce it's thickness and have the proper clearance.

You don't need a huge number of molds. A standard 30 caliber mold should throw bullets .311 or smaller to be sized to fit the throat of most commercial 30 caliber rifles. .311 to .310 will be right most of the time. An occasional rifle with a worn throat will do best with a .312 bullet.

The Krag with it large throat needs a "fat 30" caliber mold that throws bullet .314/.313 to size to fit larger throats like the Krag, the Mosin, 303 Brit and 7.64 Belgian/Argentinian.

The old mantra is "slug the bore" needs to be discarded as the critical dimension is the barrel throat/freebore. The throat will provide the size limit and not the bore.

If a fellow is looking for cast bullet accuracy in his rifle, he needs to understand bullet fit. There are more points and issues, but the above is a good place to start.

BTW....Krag barrel groove diameter will run .308 to .314 with .3095 being the most common, so your measurements sound good to me, not that it matter, which it doesn't. My Krags run .308, .3095 and .312 and I shoot .313 bullets in the all. In fact I use the same ammo in them all.

[Bullshop]

I get it - use as large a bullet as will chamber. Which means what - keep buying bullets and molds in increments? A bore should have a bullet-size limit, correct? And from what I've read, that should be around .312 for a bore of .3095.
Then, you might say, you have answered your own question...again.
In rifles I like to run my boolits the same size as the inside neck diameter of fired cases fired in that rifle.

[Battis]

I am placing too much emphasis on the "slugged" size. Measuring the muzzle and comparing it to the bore size makes sense. I should have done that before (maybe I did - not sure). Measuring the inside neck diameter of a fired case also makes sense. Checking the throat dimensions, maybe with another Cerosafe casting, is also great advice.

[madsenshooter]

I just got the idea of bigger into my noggin also. My .001 over groove diameter loads weren't doing bad, but I noticed the ID of fired cases were .315". I have a couple oversize molds, .316 versions of molds made by NOE that I can size .314. I did a head to head of the same bullet sized different diameters the other day, .314 vs .311 and the .314 shot better. Your keyholeing with jacketed is puzzling though, perhaps a worn muzzle or bad crown.

[Mk42gunner]

Any way we can get Char-Gar's post #5 in this thread as a sticky? Hopefully by itself and locked.

It is the most concise explanation of how to fit a cast rifle bullet to the gun that I have read in many years.

Robert

[leadman]

I seldom slug the entire bore unless I suspect a problem. Usually slug the throat and the muzzle, or do a Cerrosafe pour in the throat.

[madsenshooter]

One of my 92/96 rifles has a reversed taper to the groove diameter. Let me think, I can't remember how much it is right off hand. Seems like it's .308 at the chamber end, .3095 or .310 at the muzzle. Not a big difference in 30" of rifling. The bore diameter is a consistent .301 though. I slugged it several times to verify. I forgot to mention, there was less lube blown back onto the caseneck of the .314 sized rounds, less gas getting past the check and driving bands, momentarily floating the bullet and perhaps allowing a little shifting to take place.

[mikeym1a]

Have you done a chamber cast, to include an inch or two of rifled barrel? that would tell you the size of your throat. Somewhere there is an instruction of making a 'pound cast' of the chamber. Tried it, wasn't successful. Need to find it myself and re-read it. good luck. mikey

[fatelvis]

In rifles I like to run my boolits the same size as the inside neck diameter of fired cases fired in that rifle.
I like that. Excellent tip.

[Pb2au]

Let's do a short primer on bullet fit, because I don't think you have it yet.

1. The bore size is almost irrelevant with cast bullets. You can push oversized bullet down the barrel with no negative consequences.

2. The critical dimension is the barrel throat. A bullet needs to fit the throat as close as possible without shaving lead when it enters the throat. A clearance of .0005 to .0001 is all you need. The reason this is important is because a cast bullet that is a good fit to the throat will enter the barrel straight and not cockeyed.

3. If you use a bullet so large the case neck it to large to chamber the round freely then you have another problem. The loaded round need about .0005 to .0001 to allow the brass to spring away from the bullet, freeing it to go on it way into the throat and barrel. If this clearance is not there, high pressure can be induced as the brass can't spring away from the bullet.

To recap...

1. use a bullet that fills the throat but does not shave lead.
2. As long as the loaded round doesn't chamber hard due to an enlarge neck, you have no problems.
3. In a few cases, to get a bullet large enough to fill the throat and not enlarge the neck too much, you need to neck turn the brass a little to reduce it's thickness and have the proper clearance.

You don't need a huge number of molds. A standard 30 caliber mold should throw bullets .311 or smaller to be sized to fit the throat of most commercial 30 caliber rifles. .311 to .310 will be right most of the time. An occasional rifle with a worn throat will do best with a .312 bullet.

The Krag with it large throat needs a "fat 30" caliber mold that throws bullet .314/.313 to size to fit larger throats like the Krag, the Mosin, 303 Brit and 7.64 Belgian/Argentinian.

The old mantra is "slug the bore" needs to be discarded as the critical dimension is the barrel throat/freebore. The throat will provide the size limit and not the bore.

If a fellow is looking for cast bullet accuracy in his rifle, he needs to understand bullet fit. There are more points and issues, but the above is a good place to start.

BTW....Krag barrel groove diameter will run .308 to .314 with .3095 being the most common, so your measurements sound good to me, not that it matter, which it doesn't. My Krags run .308, .3095 and .312 and I shoot .313 bullets in the all. In fact I use the same ammo in them all.

Chargar,
That was an excellent post sir. Thank you for summing that up so well.

[Janoosh]

Chargar, great post and to the point. Thank You...
I think most of the problems with milsurp rifles is the aggressive cleaning of the muzzle, thus enlarging the muzzle past bore dimensions.

[Char-Gar]

Springfield Arsenal had a learning curve on the Krag barrels which were the first to use smokless powder and be of less than 45 caliber and have jacketed bullets. The black powder 45-70 rifles had loosey goosey barrel specs because the sudden ignition of the black powder expanded the base of the lead bullet to fit whatever barrel it was fired in.

Well, the jacketed smaller caliber bullets set loose by slower progressive burning powder was a whole nother animal that Springfield didn't know it had in it's zoo. Accuracy was lousy and the Army was not doing well in rifle competition. Springfield brought in master barrel maker Harry Pope to try and diagnose the problem. It didn't take Harry long to find out the lack of uniform barrels specs were the problem. In fact, I understand he gave them a piece of his mind. Thereafter, the Krag rifles started to act better as Springfield learned the craft of 30 caliber barrel making for jacketed bullets powered by smokless powder. They had it down by the time the Krag was discontinued in favor of the new Model 1903 rifle.

Looking back, we don't see how Springfield rifle makers and engineers could have over looked such a basic thing as the need for a barrel of proper and uniform specs. But it help to remember it was all new stuff for them and they were after all goverment employees.

The Krag rifle is a favorite of mine, but it is far from the best rifle every made at a government arsenal. It was a transition rifle from large caliber black power to small caliber smokeless powder and from single shot to bolt action repeater. One can expect to find all sorts of anomalies and issues with transition rifles. The Krag rifle meets these expectations.

[Char-Gar]

Measuring the inside diameter of the neck of a case fired in your rifle can give you some good information, but it has limited use for the following reasons;

1. The outside diameter of the neck of the fired case minus the spring back of the brass when it is removed from the chamber will indeed give you a reasonable number as to the size of the chamber neck.

2. the inside diameter of the fired case neck will vary depending on the thickness of the brass in the neck. Measure enough cases of different makes will show you these vary and vary enough to throw a monkey wrench into that being a reliable number on which to base the bullet size.

3. The inside diameter of the fired case neck will give you a decent idea of how large a bullet can be fired in that case in that rifle without the loaded round binding in the case neck area when being chambered. I would consider the ID of the fired neck minus .001 to be the max size of the bullet that can be fired in that case in that rifle.

4. However as stated above, the barrel throat diameter is the controlling number. If the chamber will allow a larger bullet to be used that the throat will not accept without shaving lead, then you have gained nothing by use of the larger bullet, in fact you have lost ground.

Measuring the ID of a fired case will give some valuable information, but this information by itself will not determine what is the best bullet diameter for a good fit to the barrel throat.

[Char-Gar]

My non-scientific, non-chamber case, non-slug pounded way of determining which bullet size best fits the throat.

I am not a science type, nor much of a mechanical type of any kind. I tend to find my own way to do things with out regard to such things as casting, slugging and the like.

Over the years, I have accumulated 30 caliber sizing dies that run from .309 to .314 in .001 increments with a few in between the whole numbers. I take a large cast bullet and size it larger than I think I will need. I then load it in a dummy round and chamber it in my rifle. I take a look at the bullet with a strong light and a magnifying glass. If, it shows lead shaving of any amount. I size another bullet .001 small, load another dummy round and repeat. When I chamber a round that shows no lead shaving, but only a slight burnishing of the bullet surface, that is what I use. You could probably go .001 smaller and still do just fine.

This ain't science or engineering, but it works for me. An actual bullet in an actual case, chambered in an actual rifle IMHO is better than all the number in the world on a piece of paper.

I am sorry for the multiple posts on this subject. I don't want to sound like an arrogant jerk, but some of you guys showed an interest in learning about this stuff. I didn't learn any of this stuff on my own. I learned it from those who had traveled the road before me. I tested it out and found it to be true and it enabled me to get just about any rifle to perform well with cast bullets with a minimum of frustration, hair pulling and failure.

Bullet fit is the place cast bullet accuracy starts, but not where it ends. You must still consider;

1. Bullet style as it pertains to the internal profile of the barrel and it's rifling.
2. Bullet temper vis-a-vi, the pressure of the expanding gas.
3. The twist of the rifling vis-a-vi the length of the bullet and it's velocity.
4. Bullet lube that either works or doesn't work.

The above are not in order of importance, but if bullet fit is not correct, then all attention to other factors and details are a waste of time. Get the fit right and start from there.

[Battis]

Keep posting. You have knowledge and a "certain" way of presenting it that works for me, and apparently others.
I've just learned to duck after I ask a basic question...
The ID diameter of my fired rounds keeps showing .311, which is what I sized the 160 gr bullets to.
I've been using H4895 powder but a caster that I bought from told me that the IMR 4064 might work better. I'll give it a try.

[Bullshop]

""""2. the inside diameter of the fired case neck will vary depending on the thickness of the brass in the neck. Measure enough cases of different makes will show you these vary and vary enough to throw a monkey wrench into that being a reliable number on""""

That's why we turn case necks for uniformity. Annealing case necks on a regular basis also helps with a consistent bullet pull in the case neck as well as a consistent spring back of the neck.
The inside case neck diameter is where I start and most often end my search. Turning and annealing necks just helps keep things on an even keel.
Just as important is uniform ignition (thanks Felix) and one big aid in this is to de bur flash holes. It is amazing how a bur on one side of a flash hole inside the case can cause such havoc on uniform ignition. This is one reason case orientation helps because the internal bur is always in the same position always pushing the primer fire in the same direction. Spin that bur randomly and you get random ignition. Remove the bur and cut a venturey cone for a circular flame and you have the best possibility of uniform ignition.
First fit the boolit yes but then the search goes to uniform ignition.

[Char-Gar]

Where we are going requires us to take a certain route.

If I am trying to squeeze the last tiny fraction of an inch in accuracy out of high performance rifle, I will;

1. Weight cases of the same make and lot for uniformity and select those that have the same or near same weight which also will establish a lot of cases with equal internal powder capacity for uniform combustion.
2. Trim the cases to uniform length
3. Turn the necks for a uniform thickness and roundness.
4. Deburr the flash holes and uniform the primer pockets to assist in uniform ignition.
5. Fire form the cases to my chamber
6. Neck size only using a Wilson bushing die that does not require the case to be expanded for the bullet I am using.
7. Weight the individual powder charges
8. Seat the bullets in a Wilson straight line hand die
9. Anneal the cases every five firings.

If I am shooting a Krag, any other military rifle and most sporting commercial rifles, most of the above is a waste of time and at most will deliver .25 MOA better accuracy. If an extra 1/4 inch off the 100 yards groups is what you are after, the yes do all of the above.

The average guy, who is shooting the average rifle for hunting or recreational can skip 3 through 8 above and be as happy as a baby playing under a blanket. If he pays attention to the details of cast bullet shooting and fit, his rifle will shoot as well or better than it will be the best over the counter ammo.

Felix was a former benchrest shooter who applied his scientific mind to squeeze the last tiny smidgen of accuracy out of a rifle and load. I know how to do it as well, but I really don't care enough to spend the time and detail fussing around with minutia that won't make any difference in my life and gun fun. I suspect most folks on this board are of the same ilk. But it is good to know the very fine point if that level of accuracy scratches where we itch.

If was going to a bench rest match, I will load my ammo for that goal. If I am going out for fun shooting with my pals, I won't. The tiny details only matter if the last tiny bit of accuracy also matters.

[gnoahhh]

Well said.

If one really wanted to be anal about it, one would prep one case and proceed to use just it for a day's shooting by loading at the bench. Orienting that one case in the chamber exactly the same way for each shot, and ditto orienting the bullet in the case will provide even more dividends. (Best to have witness marks on the case and bullet mold, and have a setup wherein the throat diameter bullet is a thumb-press fit in the case neck so as to obviate the need to resize.) Better yet, start using breech seating techniques. I once worshiped at the altar of obsessive-compulsive handloading techniques, but now I too would rather have more fun shooting.

[Bullshop]

I was addressing your comments about neck wall thickness variations being a problem using inside neck diameter of fired cases as a place to start with boolit diameter.
You pretty much said inside neck diameter is not dependable because of neck diameter variation and I pointed out how to make it dependable by neck turning.
I also pointed out that by regular neck annealing sessions with your brass produces more consistent boolit pull and case neck spring back.
Weather for bench rest or plinking we are searching for accuracy and the key to accuracy is consistency. Boolit fit is not the only thing to pay attention to if we want consistent accuracy.
If we were not searching for accuracy why then even bother being concerned with the just right boolit diameter? Boolit diameter alone is not the Holy Grail and without considering some other factors may leave you disappointed with your accuracy if accuracy is important to you.

[madsenshooter]

Battis, check the ID of the neck of a round you've fired that's closer to full pressure. I've found that low pressure loads don't expand the neck all the way. The bullet gets popped out, then the neck springs back to nearly where you started. I only recently discovered my .315 ID cases when working with 2000fps+ loads that produced over 30,000psi. Actually, I'd taken some hot 150gr jacketed loads to the range with me that day, those were the ones I noticed the .315ID on.

Previously I had thought .311 was the max diameter bullet I could seat cause I was getting some resistance to chambering with .312. The resistance must've been coming from somewhere other than the caseneck. Could have been overlength cases, could have been the shoulder, as I have several Krags with minor differences in the chamber.

[gwpercle]

And don't forget to check the crown. The tiniest ding will give you fits. And if worn near the muzzle from cleaning rod wear, which could be causing problem, cut the barrel back and recrown it. I had a model 95 Mauser that sprayed them until I had the barrel cut back and recrowned, then 3 shots could be covered with a quarter. The difference was like night and day!
Gary

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I am sorry for the multiple posts on this subject. I don't want to sound like an arrogant jerk, but some of you guys showed an interest in learning about this stuff.

Don't be sorry, Excellent posts here, your's and others. Many of us are just listening. I have a 30-40 krag I am having problems with as well. (Groove diameter of .3145). So many informational Gems in this thread, Thanks.

Thread subscribed !

[Battis]

I was using reduced loads of H4895, about 27 grs. I'll try IMR 4064.
The cast .309 bullets that I have fit easily into the muzzle, but the .311s don't go to the rings.
The 1903 front sight is not permanently attached and I kept moving it for accuracy, which was a mistake. I'm going to load up some more rounds, and just fire for groups tomorrow.
Geez, I might have to buy that other Krag they have at the store for comparison.

[madsenshooter]

I chase the shots all to often myself, but with a scope. I'm getting better at resisting the temptation to move things though. I have to remind myself, "shoot a group dummy, then make changes." Sometimes there's no group to seek the center of! JonB, sounds like you need some of NOE's 316 diameter molds.

[Char-Gar]

Don't be sorry, Excellent posts here, your's and others. Many of us are just listening. I have a 30-40 krag I am having problems with as well. (Groove diameter of .3145). So many informational Gems in this thread, Thanks.

Thread subscribed !

In one of his articles on the Krag rifle in early use, Col Townsend Whelen write of Dr. Walter G Hudson measuring the groove diameters of 10 Krag barrels and found them to run from the standard .308 inch up to as high as .318 inch. Hudson along with Mr. Barlow of Ideal Manufacturing designed Ideal bullet .308284 for the Krag, which used the newly developed (By Barlow) copper gas check.

311284 is still a top bullet for the Krag rifle, when it can be found in a mold that casts bullets large enough. This bullet holds up well out to 500 yards when pushed out the barrel at 1.9K fps or thereabouts.

So while your .3145 barrel is larger than most found, there are others still larger. Your solution will be to use a .315 bullet or a hair larger. You very may well have to neck turn your cases to remove some material to allow a bullet that fat to chamber with ease. This should work for you.

There is allot of satisfaction in taking the odd ball old rifles with "issues" and finding the solution. We cast bullet shooters have far more tools at our disposal in terms of bullet diameter to deal with these anomalies. Jacketed bullet shooters unless they have to tools to make their own swage dies or the money to have them made, are pretty much stuck with what the various factories choose to make.

[Bullshop]

I may have a mold for the original Krag boolit. It is an Ideal 8 cavity armory (huge) mold for the Ideal #311274. It is a 200gn round nose plain base. The mold was in a poor state before I sent it to Eric the mold master. Now it drops fairly round diameter boolits of about .314"x.302" These should be perfect for Krag rifles with rather large bore/groove numbers. They drop with a little flash on the round nose but a round nose top punch cleans that right up. I tried some in a 1903-A3 yesterday and they did pretty good. I made no attempt to develop a load but just tried what was in the powder dump 4756 at a setting I was using for something else 11.5gn with no filler. I fired 22 shots into about a 2" vert x 3" horizontal group. They will likely shoot darn good with a little load work.
If anyone would like to try some of these I just added this boolit to the list at my site. I will run a special here at $10.00 per 100 as cast or $12.50 sized and lubed plus shipping.

[CHeatermk3]

Are your bullets still key-holing?

[Battis]

The ten I fired the other day were making nice round holes in the paper. They just weren't going where I wanted them to go. I shoulda left the sight in one position to get some groups.

[alamogunr]

My non-scientific, non-chamber case, non-slug pounded way of determining which bullet size best fits the throat.

I am not a science type, nor much of a mechanical type of any kind. I tend to find my own way to do things with out regard to such things as casting, slugging and the like.

Over the years, I have accumulated 30 caliber sizing dies that run from .309 to .314 in .001 increments with a few in between the whole numbers. I take a large cast bullet and size it larger than I think I will need. I then load it in a dummy round and chamber it in my rifle. I take a look at the bullet with a strong light and a magnifying glass. If, it shows lead shaving of any amount. I size another bullet .001 small, load another dummy round and repeat. When I chamber a round that shows no lead shaving, but only a slight burnishing of the bullet surface, that is what I use. You could probably go .001 smaller and still do just fine.

This ain't science or engineering, but it works for me. An actual bullet in an actual case, chambered in an actual rifle IMHO is better than all the number in the world on a piece of paper.

I am sorry for the multiple posts on this subject. I don't want to sound like an arrogant jerk, but some of you guys showed an interest in learning about this stuff. I didn't learn any of this stuff on my own. I learned it from those who had traveled the road before me. I tested it out and found it to be true and it enabled me to get just about any rifle to perform well with cast bullets with a minimum of frustration, hair pulling and failure.

Bullet fit is the place cast bullet accuracy starts, but not where it ends. You must still consider;

1. Bullet style as it pertains to the internal profile of the barrel and it's rifling.
2. Bullet temper vis-a-vi, the pressure of the expanding gas.
3. The twist of the rifling vis-a-vi the length of the bullet and it's velocity.
4. Bullet lube that either works or doesn't work.

The above are not in order of importance, but if bullet fit is not correct, then all attention to other factors and details are a waste of time. Get the fit right and start from there.

I have bookmarked this thread and saved and printed several of your posts in this thread. I don't have a Krag but I do have several milsurps that demonstrate problems to a varying degree. Your methodology in solving problems is the best I have seen.

Thanks for taking the time to post.

[Char-Gar]

Guys, I have posted this stuff a number of times over the years. I have decided to pull it all together in to a paper entitled "Accuracy Tips for Cast Bullets Shooting in Rifle". I will do it in a FAQ format and include the above posts as well as some more stuff about bullet alloy, bullet style, powder selection, rifling twist and anything else that comes to mind. In other words, I will try to pull my approach together in one place.

I don't have a scientific mind and in fact detest numbers and math. I have a good education, but it has all been in the area of arts and humanities, having avoided any kind of science or numbers like the plague. None the less, I enjoy shooting and reloading, so I have had to boil all of this science stuff down to simple terms I can understand and find simply ways to apply it. So, if you are looking technical stuff, you won't get it from me. I can tell you "how" but won't try and explain "why", as I will fall flat on my face pretty quick trying to do that.


If anybody wants a copy of this send me a PM with an email address and I will sent it to you in a MSWord document. This may take a few days or a couple of weeks. I don't have any classes to teach this summer, so I have some time to put it together. Anyway, it will be yours for the asking.

Take care...Charles Graff

[Pb2au]

I may have a mold for the original Krag boolit. It is an Ideal 8 cavity armory (huge) mold for the Ideal #311274. It is a 200gn round nose plain base. The mold was in a poor state before I sent it to Eric the mold master. Now it drops fairly round diameter boolits of about .314"x.302" These should be perfect for Krag rifles with rather large bore/groove numbers. They drop with a little flash on the round nose but a round nose top punch cleans that right up. I tried some in a 1903-A3 yesterday and they did pretty good. I made no attempt to develop a load but just tried what was in the powder dump 4756 at a setting I was using for something else 11.5gn with no filler. I fired 22 shots into about a 2" vert x 3" horizontal group. They will likely shoot darn good with a little load work.
If anyone would like to try some of these I just added this boolit to the list at my site. I will run a special here at $10.00 per 100 as cast or $12.50 sized and lubed plus shipping.

Bullshop,

I checked on your website and did not see it listed. Am I just not seeing the forest for the trees, or do I need to contact you directly to inquire about ordering?
Many thanks sir.

[gnoahhh]

Having owned, and cast for, around ten Krags over the last 45 years (I kind of lost count), I can verify Charles' observations. I guess I have been lucky as none of mine had egregiously oversized barrel dimensions. My good old (and I mean old) Ideal 311284 mold that pops them out at .311 has served me well with every Krag I owned, with accuracy ranging from "good" to "astounding". I wimped out on the current one- a G&H style Krag sporter- and cut right to the chase and installed a new Criterion barrel. .300 bore, .308 groove, and .310 throat should simplify things a bit when I get serious about load development.

[Bullshop]

PB2au
I just checked and it is on the list. Tina has it listed as 308274 so she will have to be reprimanded for her mistake.
If you would like some just PM me or email me. Email link should be at the bottom of this page.

[Pb2au]

Ah cool. No need to reprimand anyone, mistakes happen. PM inbound sir!
Many thanks

[Battis]

I loaded 30 rounds, using the 160gr cast bullets sized to .311.
10 with 7.3 grs Red Dot (suggested by a few posters)
10 with 27 grs H4895
10 with 30 grs IMR4064.
Hands down, the Red Dot shot the best. Most accurate groups, nice neat holes in the paper, very mild recoil - the barrel didn't even get warm. I might step it up to 10 grs or so.

[John Boy]

I get it - use as large a bullet as will chamber. Which means what - keep buying bullets and molds in increments?Instead of guessing, do a chamber cast of the chamber including the leade (throat) and leading bore cuts

[Battis]

I did. I used cerosafe. My question is, what do you do with the dimensions once you get them? (as far as choosing a bullet diameter). I'm pretty comfortable with the .311s after shooting today, especially with Red Dot powder. It was easy on the rifle and me with good results.

[madsenshooter]

What exactly were the .309 jacketed bullets that were keyholing?

[Battis]

.308 150 gr FMJ bullet. The 96/11 likes them, but not the Krag. I should have tried them with a reduced load of H4895 or the Red Dot.

[madsenshooter]

I have read that some Krags don't like BT bullets. Haven't seen that for myself, my cutdown shoots the same bullet pretty good. But if I recall the first pics you posted of your carbine, the crown was pretty beat up.

[Battis]

There is rifling right to the end of the barrel. It's not too beat up but it's not the Mauser. Maybe I was just pushing that too small of a FMJ bullet too fast. The .311s did well with the Red Dot. I have to position the front sight where it should be so I can get a better idea of where it's shooting.

[13Echo]

There is a pretty long throat on a Krag and the throat is often rather large diameter. A short bullet is going to have a long start to engage rifling and if it tilts in the process it isn't going to be accurate. If you can get some 220gr round nose bullets try them.

Jerry Liles

[madsenshooter]

Yea, so the story goes, but I've got MOA groups with 168s @2000fps and even with bullets as short as the .310 123gr V-max for the 7.62x39 @2450fps.

[Battis]

The Krag won't ever be my best shooter, but what a great gun. I don't hunt or compete, but if I can work up a load that will hit the gong at 100 yds consistently I'll be happy. I really think I'm on to something with the Red Dot and bigger bullets in this rifle. I'd like to try a 220 gr bullet if I can find some. I keep checking Gunbroker but haven't seen any that heavy. I'd also like to find an uncut Krag rifle. My LGS had one that lasted an hour or so.

[gnoahhh]

If you want to try some 311284's, shoot me a PM. I like Red Dot/Clays/Bullseye type powders too for accurate plinking loads with plain base bullets, to the extent those are mostly what I shoot. I also love somewhat slower powders like 2400, SR-4759, 4227, etc. for loads in the 1600fps neighborhood with gas checked bullets. On the rare occasions I have a need for full power hunting/long range target loads, I step up to the slower IMR powders. I can't speak to using jacketed stuff in Krags as it's been a few decades since I used them in such.

[fatelvis]

My Ruger#3 in 30-40 is rapidly becoming my favorite cast boolit launcher. A NOE311299 cast from ww+5% lino, Speedgreen lubed, sized to .310" over 18grns 4759 and seated to engrave on closing. Fairly consistent MOA accuracy at 100yds, with a SD of 6. This is using a beater 4X Nikon Prostaff scope.
Gnoahhh, I have been wanting to try some 311284s in my 30-06, would you like to trade some nekkid cast boolits?

[Grapeshot]

I slugged the bore of my Krag again (that makes about eight times) and I keep coming up with .3095. I tried .309 jacketed bullets and they were coming out sideways. I just bought a batch of .312 cast bullets (160 grs) and sized them down to .311. I only loaded 10 rounds and they all chambered and fired, but I made the mistake of trying to test out the load (27 grs H4895) AND set up a new 1903 front sight. I should have just fired to see if they grouped but I kept adjusting the sight. Of course the holes in the paper were all over the place but at least they were nice and round.
I loaded up a dummy round using the .312 (not sized to .311) and it chambered fine. If it chambers, it should fire - correct?

I had this problem with my Krag and proceeded to fire lap and recrowned the muzzle. After that my groups tightened up and all was well. YMMV.

[Battis]

Did you recrown the muzzle yourself?

[Battis]

I got a batch of bullets from gnoahhh. They weigh approx. 215 grs. I sized them to .311 and they chamber perfectly (dummy rounds).
Now for The Question...
For powders I have Red Dot, IMR 4064 and H4895. I cannot find any load data for any of those powders for that weight cast bullet. And, I cannot find any of the powders listed on the Hodgon site.
With the limited supplies of powder, how do you cross reference powders? By the burn rate chart?

[Pb2au]

For 4064.
I would start with 60% jacketed data and work up from there. The service load for 30-40 is what, 2000, 2100 fps? It is not a screaming hi pressure load so your boolit will fair well down the barrel.

[mikeym1a]

I did. I used cerosafe. My question is, what do you do with the dimensions once you get them? (as far as choosing a bullet diameter). I'm pretty comfortable with the .311s after shooting today, especially with Red Dot powder. It was easy on the rifle and me with good results.

right in front of the case neck is the area called the throat. Measure that. that is the diameter you want your cast boolits. It seals the bore, and ensures the boolit enters the barrel squarely. At least, that is what I have read here and others places. Good luck. mikey

[Battis]

On the Hodgdon site, they don't list any data for IMR 4064 or H4895 for the 200 gr or 220 gr bullet. I checked the Lyman Cast Bullet book (4th) and nothing. I was just wondering if there's a rule of thumb for using unlisted powders. I'd buy one of the powders listed if I could find it.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I got a batch of bullets from gnoahhh. They weigh approx. 215 grs. I sized them to .311 and they chamber perfectly (dummy rounds).
Now for The Question...
For powders I have Red Dot, IMR 4064 and H4895. I cannot find any load data for any of those powders for that weight cast bullet. And, I cannot find any of the powders listed on the Hodgon site.
With the limited supplies of powder, how do you cross reference powders? By the burn rate chart?
red dot 13gr is Ed Harris' "the Load" (for 30-06 or large capacity 30 cal).
You would want to start with less, I'd start with 9 or 10gr...or maybe even less?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?203541-So-if-13-0-of-Red-Dot-is-universal-in-the-bigger-cases-then
You can search for red dot Ed Harris the load and find many more articles.

[Battis]

I read about "The Load." I thought it said that the cartridge should be "larger than the 30-40." I'll reread it. With that in mind, I just loaded up 12 rounds using approx. 7.2 grs of Red Dot. Seems like a good place to start.

[Lance Boyle]

pretty much any of the .30 bore large sized case ammo would work with "the load". The .303 and the .30-40 krag are nearly identical.

[gnoahhh]

I can't speak to using 4064 or 4895, but I have used Red Dot successfully. I would go straight to 12 grains. I use 4350 for near-2000fps hunting loads with the 311284. If it were me I would also try the 60% 4895 too. (60% minimum of whatever the book says is a starting load for a 220 grain jacketed bullet, and be prepared to increase it until I was getting 18-1900fps- a good deer hunting load in the Krag.) If you need more bullets (and it sounds like you will) give me another shout.

Most of my Krag shooting is with 2400 and SR-4759 loads in the 1500-1600fps range with that bullet.

[Battis]

The 7.2 grs of Red Dot was a nice, mild load that still rang the gong at 100 yds. Grouping was good at 50 yds (I still have to set the front sight permanently). The rifle definitely likes the fatter bullets. I'll step it up to The Load (13 grs RD) next time out. Thanks for that batch, gnoahhh.
I've been reading about the 311284 mold. Interesting.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?32129-Current-Lyman-311284-Two-Cavity-Moulds-from-Midway

[madsenshooter]

You should check out the NOE version too Battis, bullets from mine drop with a .302" nose. Some have reported undersized noses on recent Lyman production.

[Battis]

Nuclear cleaning option suggestions needed...
I loaded up a batch of rounds using 11 grs Red Dot with 170 gr bullets and 215 gr bullets. Now, 7 grs of Red Dot with the same bullets worked pretty well, but the holes were all over the place with 11 grs. I decided to do a chamber cast again, but first, really clean the rifle. The more I cleaned it the dirtier it got. I let it soak overnight in an ammonia/vinegar/soap mixture and scrubbed some more. Finally I think I have it reasonably clean.
I've read dozens of posts with cleaning suggestions but which ones really works? Brake fluid, transmission fluid, naval jelly, bronze wool...any suggestions?

[Grapeshot]

Did you recrown the muzzle yourself?

Yes. I took a tungsten carbide countersink and some Balistol to the muzzle and slowly turned the counter sink after I made sure I was lined up straight and even. Three revolutions and I had a nice champher at the muzzle. Really tightened up my groups.

[Battis]

It looks pretty straightforward, though some of the posted comments under the video are tough on old Larry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OorpZlG28fI

[dakota]

Great thread

[Shiloh]

My 314299 boolit just touches the sizing die on he mold lines. This is with 50/50 WW and range lead. My mold.
Every mold is a hair different.
Shiloh

[Old Coot]

My non-scientific, non-chamber case, non-slug pounded way of determining which bullet size best fits the throat.

I am not a science type, nor much of a mechanical type of any kind. I tend to find my own way to do things with out regard to such things as casting, slugging and the like.

Over the years, I have accumulated 30 caliber sizing dies that run from .309 to .314 in .001 increments with a few in between the whole numbers. I take a large cast bullet and size it larger than I think I will need. I then load it in a dummy round and chamber it in my rifle. I take a look at the bullet with a strong light and a magnifying glass. If, it shows lead shaving of any amount. I size another bullet .001 small, load another dummy round and repeat. When I chamber a round that shows no lead shaving, but only a slight burnishing of the bullet surface, that is what I use. You could probably go .001 smaller and still do just fine.

This ain't science or engineering, but it works for me. An actual bullet in an actual case, chambered in an actual rifle IMHO is better than all the number in the world on a piece of paper.

I am sorry for the multiple posts on this subject. I don't want to sound like an arrogant jerk, but some of you guys showed an interest in learning about this stuff. I didn't learn any of this stuff on my own. I learned it from those who had traveled the road before me. I tested it out and found it to be true and it enabled me to get just about any rifle to perform well with cast bullets with a minimum of frustration, hair pulling and failure.

Bullet fit is the place cast bullet accuracy starts, but not where it ends. You must still consider;

1. Bullet style as it pertains to the internal profile of the barrel and it's rifling.
2. Bullet temper vis-a-vi, the pressure of the expanding gas.
3. The twist of the rifling vis-a-vi the length of the bullet and it's velocity.
4. Bullet lube that either works or doesn't work.

The above are not in order of importance, but if bullet fit is not correct, then all attention to other factors and details are a waste of time. Get the fit right and start from there.

The least expensive (most reasonably priced) sizing system I have found is NOE's. You buy the die body, and then purchase sizing inserts for Al's push through sizer. If you are going to be sizing bullets of a number of different sizes or just want to have the ability to size bullets is incrementally NOE's system is the most cost effective. Brodie

[beltfed]

Battis,
YOu are asking for RUSTY Bore with soaking overnight with ammonia,/vinegar,etc
beltfed/arnie