Possible threat to casters

[buletdoc]

Hope this in right location. Don't know if anyone else has had call from ATF but got one this am. Some history about myself. Began casting in 1990 as hobby because of disability from degenerative spine. Then I found some people that wanted to buy from me. Started with hand molds, then Magma Mastercaster, then two. Started getting more reguests, found and purchased used Ballisti-Cast Mark II & Mark V. Things were going good suplementing social security. Was told I needed 06 manufacturing FFL so got one. Also had 01 dealer, gunsmith FFL which renewed in 4/14. Did paperwork, sent in, got call today, expecting visit AM 5/22. Agent also asked about 06 FFL, said that now also have to reg with State Dept. concerned with ITAR, —INTERNATIONAL TRAFFIC IN ARMS
REGULATIONS. I was also told by agent that another caster inquired about this and was told that compliance would cost about 2500 dollars. Please google this and read. Sounds like another govt threat to not only free enterprise but to all firearm users. All advice will be welcome ASAP.

[jonp]

If your not shipping International what does ITAR have to do with anything?

[NVScouter]

I saw something about this on the new this morning. President Obama has also used the FDIC (yeah banking!) alone with the ATF to regulate anything sex or gun high risk business. Sorry you are on the top of the list instead of the bottom!

Good luck Sir!

[starmac]

I have been under the impression that a guy had to have ITAR to sell any boolits at all, was I wrong and this is something new??

[buletdoc]

I don' do much shipping & certainly not international. Keep fingers crossed. Will let everyone know what happens. How far will this backdoor gun control go? First you need a 06 FFL just to cast, now have to register with the state dept. The caster I referred to just hung it up, not worth it.Not sure how to do quotes or fontes and colors.

" Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.''

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure."

[w5pv]

"o" thinks he is above the law and has the right to impose his wishes on any one that he wishes,ELF him and his horse to.

[RedHawk357Mag]

Best of luck Sir. Hope this pans out for you and appreciate the heads up.

[Larry Gibson]

They ran me and thousands of other FFL holders off some years back under Clinton's directions. Appears to be doing the same under Obama. Wonder if they've read "Unintended Consequences"? Maybe so and that's why the militarization of all the law enforcement and pseudo law enforcement in this country?

Larry Gibson

[OuchHot!]

I have to agree with Larry, this sounds more like agenda than letter of the law to me. Can you get some activity out of the NRA? I think this needs a counter attack on the legal front.

[imashooter2]

You don't have to have an FFL to cast boolits. You have to have an FFL to sell or barter your castings.

[TJF1]

I am with LARRY they run me off in 94 to
Terry

[MBTcustom]

Unfortunately, it is true that you have to have an ITAR agreement in order to manufacture projectiles and ammunition for sale to US citizens.
And that $2500 fee? Yeah, that's per year.
It's backdoor gun control, and it's been going on a long time. When I got my 07 FFL, I was all gung ho about making ammo for people, so I bought a Dillon and some 6 cavity molds etc etc etc, but then I found out about this lovely little stipulation in the law, so now I teach people how to cast and reload, and I don't charge a penny. It's better that way anyway.

However, there are two ways you can take this:
A. Throw in the towel and go back to casting and loading for yourself.
Or B. Buy more equipment, pay the fees, and sell so many dad burned boolits that you make a decent profit on top of the astronomical fees!

Right now, you are in the right climate to do it, what with the internet allowing you to advertise all over the USA, and the shortage of any kind of projectiles to load with.

As far as the ATF agent is concerned, tell the truth no matter what, be compliant, and try to find a resolution. Do not fight with him/them, they have no power to do anything but their job and they are not personally out to get you. Just try to work with them and be reasonable. They will help you if you come across as a hard working, respectful individual. They will usually help someone who honestly missed a piece of the law, but if they get the sneaky suspicion you ignored the law, or just plain don't give a rip.........just don't give that impression OK?

[Smoke4320]

buletdoc
I am afraid you will find that info is correct.. and yes another way of squeezing out all the little guys and lower the supply of ammo .. drive up the prices and people will quit shooting at least that's the logic..

[SSGOldfart]

I bet the next two calls will be SSN and IRS better get your paperwork in order hope you got business license and tax permit

[gray wolf]

Maybe so and that's why the militarization of all the law enforcement and pseudo law enforcement in this country?
All the truth is right in the above quote, not only for the topic at hand, but for things you can't even conceive.
Believe it if you wish, poo - poo it if you wish.

[T-Bird]

I think you should sell bullet shaped fishing wts. Place a label on the box forbidding their "off label" use in guns. Shoot Straight, T-Bird

[shooter93]

This will all go the way of the ADA act.....it's impossible for anyone to fully comply and they will fix gun laws the same. They are after gun owners in every way imaginable, it's easier to control criminals.

[bedbugbilly]

Sorry - but before everything gets done . . . you're going to need a license and a permit to even take a %$^&. I'm old enough to remember many administrations . . . and the games they play. We have lost more Constitutional Rights during this particular "era" than ever before . . . but then why wouldn't we when the powers that be mock and ignore the Constitution? Others have had impeachment proceedings brought against them for much less . . . . but then there were "leaders" in those days . . . regardless of party affiliation.

Good luck on your audit . . . I really hope you come out on it O.K. This Administration doesn't give a hoot about small business or those that try to stand on their own two feet . . . but they sure know how to line their own pockets.

[missionary5155]

This will all go the way of the ADA act.....it's impossible for anyone to fully comply and they will fix gun laws the same. They are after gun owners in every way imaginable, it's easier to control criminals.

And sadly they have little desire to control the criminal element. Please remember this and to vote this November !

[nagantguy]

They ran me and thousands of other FFL holders off some years back under Clinton's directions. Appears to be doing the same under Obama. Wonder if they've read "Unintended Consequences"? Maybe so and that's why the militarization of all the law enforcement and pseudo law enforcement in this country?

Larry Gibson
I have read that novel sir, liked it very much and it pains me to think that the squeal my be happening in a city near you anytime now.

[mpmarty]

We need to start "feeding the pigs".

[randyrat]

What ever you decide, you should call or write your State Reps and both Senators.. Will it do any good, I don't know, but how else will they know whats going on. Explain to them your dilemma.

[dragon813gt]

ITAR is nothing new. They've been requiring it for years. I'm not saying it's right, because it's not. I wish you luck but you will have to pay it if you want to stay in business.

[Artful]

I am with LARRY they run me off in 94 to
Terry
Yep, me too - wasn't doing enough volume and no store front so you don't need your FFL
But I think it was under Carter that they decided if you purchased a gun with intent to resell for profit you needed the FFL
:groner:

[RogerDat]

I think the $2500 "fee" is the key item. Now what amounts to about $200 a month tax that only applies to commercial (for resale) production of cast bullets will only really impact the small local suppliers. Not so much the big outfits such as Winchester or Remington. I think it is just as likely that some lobbyist got that added in to help keep down competition from local producers of reloading components as it is to be back door gun control. With modern equipment available for home use and the high demand/price for components selling at the local gun shows or online collectively the small suppliers could easily cost the industry big guys a large chunk of profits.

The fact that you have to be licensed at any production level is just stupid BUT just a person might brew beer at home legally up to a certain quantity as soon as they sell it they become a "Brewer" subject to bunches of red tape and license requirements in an attempt to prevent bad booze getting sold. The number of people that went blind during prohibition from bad booze was staggering so some regulation makes sense, not necessarily the regulations we end up with however.

I think this FFL rule on casting like many rules and laws take a legitimate concern, in this case people who might create ammo for terrorist or rebels groups (think Bay of Pigs) and sell it black market. Take that case and come up with a totally useless rule or law that will supposedly prevent it. When one can without permit or paperwork create the exact same cast bullet if it is not for resale. Do the people that come up with this stuff consider that people casting for evil purposes are not going to get the permits?

I'm with the suggestion of broaden your market, sell enough that the $2500 additional tax (cost) of doing business is more than offset by increased sales. Then buy a bite me tee shirt.

[shootinfox2]

GOOGLE the ITAR requirements. The 2500 a year fee is for exporters. Manufacturers still need a registration for producing"war materiel" . Information is your friend. Find the facts and do what you need to do to comply. Good luck.

Fox

[High Desert Hunter]

"§ 120.3 Policy on designating and determining
defense articles and services.
An article or service may be designated
or determined in the future to
be a defense article (see § 120.6) or defense
service (see § 120.9) if it:
(a) Is specifically designed, developed,
configured, adapted, or modified
for a military application, and
(i) Does not have predominant civil
applications, and
(ii) Does not have performance equivalent
(defined by form, fit and function)
to those of an article or service
used for civil applications;"

The U.S. Military does not use cast bullets, so I am unsure how it could be construed to fall under their guidelines?

[buletdoc]

Here it is 10pm and am still researching. I hope it only applies to exporting, which I do none of. I greatly appreciate all the good words. I was thinking about trying to sell some on the web but not sure now. Will keep everyone up to date.

[Pinsnscrews]

Interesting to note that the ITAR was established in 1976, and underwent a major change in 1999...

As a suggestion, if you do follow through, and do get set up on the web, make note all over the site that your products are "Not for Sale or Use outside of the United States" and make certain not to ship outside the US.

From the quick research I did, cast boolits fall under "ammunition components" on the USML listing as "projectile". No where does it state it must be for Military Use Only.

[dakotashooter2]

Raise a few million bucks and fight ITAR as a violation of our constitution.............

[shootinfox2]

Posted in another thread also. 22 cfr 121.1(f)(1). ammunition
Fox