.351 Winchester

[Battis]

I'm fairly new to reloading. So far I've loaded .50-70, .41 Swiss black powder (brass formed from 348 Winchester), 7.5x55, 6.5x55, Krag 30-40. and .38 SP. No major issues.
Would reloading Winchester .351 be a little more complicated? I looked at a 1907 Winchester today and it got me thinking, then I started reading about them and thinking some more...
Interesting rifle.

[beagle]

Loading the .351 Self Loading is no more complicated than any other caliber.....BUT....the logistics is staggering to get ready to load. First off you have to find a mould and that's a custom proposition unless you get lucky and find an old Ideal or Lyman. Then, there's the sizer and again, that's a custom proposition. Dies are expensive unless you're lucky like I was and can load with .357 Magnum dies. Of course, be on the lookout for .348 gas checks as they're sometimes hard to come by. Last and most important is brass. Good luck on finding original .351 brass. Most is made nowadays from .357 Max brass with the rim turned and an extractor groove cut. Also be on the lookout for a #19 RCBS shell holder. Once you have assembled all of this material, read "Cast in the .351 Self Loading" on castpics for some loads and my trials and tribulations.

Actually, it's a pretty nice caliber for deer. Mine has more recoil than I anticipated but shoots good. Be careful, it throws those $.50 cases about 20 feet but is a hoot to shoot./beagle

[Battis]

Thanks for the info. Most of what I've been reading goes with what you said - good gun, but hard to find reloading components for it. And I don't have a lathe...
I went back to the store for a 2nd look at a falling block 12 ga Hopkins and Allen shotgun at a really good price - it was gone and the .351 Winchester was in its place. I'd never seen one before. Great looking rifle, but I'll most likely pass.

[shaggybull]

Get a hold of Pete at New England Bullets he's making bullets for the 351 win. He goes by bulletmaker on the forum

[Battis]

Beagle - great article on castpics. I think I'd be over my head with that rifle. Maybe some day. Thanks.

[Charley]

Not tough to find components at all. Brass can be made from .357 Max, as mentioned. Rim must be turned down, I've found no need to recut the extractor groove with my rifle. It's one of those "depends" situations. Brass can also be made from .223 cases, and will function in most rifles I've seen. Capacity is a bit less, so adjust your load down. Bullets can be sized down .357 cast, you are only talking about .005 or .006 reduction, from .357-.358 to .352. I also shoot .357 Magnum brass in my rifle, with the rims turned down. Similar to shooting .22 Shorts in a .22 LR. Lighter bullets and beginning charge of Unique, work up until it functions.
Redding dies are available excellent quality, available, and cheaper than RCBS!

[Battis]

I went back to look at that rifle again tonight. It's in great shape and they marked it down to $295. I talked to a knowledgeable salesman who is a reloader (he has helped me in the past) and he also had the opinion that components might be hard to find. Nice looking rifle though. I'm still tempted. I don't have a lathe but I know people who do.
Midway has the die set.

[beagle]

If I had the urge, I'd go for it. As I said, mine functions great with ammo loaded in .357 Mag dies. Old Grumble, when he posted said his functioned with regular .357 Mag cases. My extractor won't snap over the rim but it chambers fine. Moulds can be found. I made it sound bad but after getting into the project and seeing where corners could be cut, it wasn't so bad and worth it. Lot of fun to shoot./beagle

[Battis]

It doesn't sound too bad, just a step or two beyond me right now. Thanks for the replies.

[leftiye]

You should be able to ram .223 brass into a sizer, and then turn the heads/rims down a little (If I've got the case diameters right).

[Doc_Stihl]

@ $295 I would be interested if you're not. I have a set of .351 dies and I'm working on loading my first batch of .351 now. I'm going to work on making a batch of brass from .357 and use longer boolits. I cast .358 and size to .352 in 2 steps. So far everything seems to be working out. I need to fix my .351's recoil rod and then I'll be ready to shoot.

[Battis]

Here's a link to their page and info for that rifle. I'm pretty sure they'd ship to an FFL. I didn't notice the "minor cracks" in the stock that they list but I can check it out. It's marked down to $295.
http://www.ktpguns.com/firearm.php?gid=187051&manufacturer=WINCHESTER&caliber=any&action=any&model=any&sort=Manufacturer&sortdir=asc&searchdata=&SeeAll=


It looks like they have another one in the store for $535.
http://www.ktpguns.com/results.php?manufacturer=WINCHESTER&caliber=any&action=any&model=any

[Doc_Stihl]

I go to Kittery pretty often. I'll try to run over Thursday evening. Cracks in the forearm are real common. They're wicked thin.

[Battis]

I didn't even notice your location. I'm pretty sure they marked the rifle down because of the ammo involved. It's in pretty good shape.

[doc1876]

I thought I would mention that the .351 was a favorite of the Texas Rangers around the turn of the century. Just some info incase history helps you to make up your mind.....

[Charley]

If you can convert .348 Winchester to 10.4 Swiss, you can convert .357 max or .223 to .351. Just not that hard.

[Battis]

Converting the .348 or .8mm Lebel brass to .41 Swiss is pretty straightforward. Cut to approx. length, full length size, and trim. I never had to touch the rims. I load with black powder so neck tension isn't a big problem. Once I had the .351 components, I'm sure I could handle it, with maybe a newbie question or two.

[beagle]

A lot of the .351s were guard guns in prisons. Either Indiana or Illinois as I recall. Mine's a prison gun. Has a few hairline cracks but still shoots well./beagle

[Charley]

Converting the .348 or .8mm Lebel brass to .41 Swiss is pretty straightforward. Cut to approx. length, full length size, and trim. I never had to touch the rims. I load with black powder so neck tension isn't a big problem. Once I had the .351 components, I'm sure I could handle it, with maybe a newbie question or two.

8x50 Lebel is a lot easier in my rifle. .348 brass is a bit larger than chamber diameter in my rifle, case body has to be turned. That's why I mentioned .348. I find it just as easy to turn rims on .357 Max!

[Battis]

Before I got the tip from another poster to partially neck size a loaded .41 round to help it chamber, I was turning down the necks using a file and a drill press (before I loaded powder and bullets). It worked. I don't think I can do it with the .357 max...or can I? I have zero metal working knowledge, tools, skills, etc.

[Charley]

If you are asking about turning the rim down, yes, it can be done on a drill press with a file. Faster with a small lathe, but still doable.

[Battis]

I wonder how this rifle would be with reduced loads - would it still "self load"?

[Doc_Stihl]

I doubt it. The recoil spring is HEAVY duty and the "bolt" weighs probably close to 5 pounds.
I had to replace the guide rod, buffers, and springs in my .351. Found out after that the old Winchester repair manuals say to return the rifle to the factory to replace the guide rod because it requires factory tools.
It's an evil torture device to reinstall.

But, while I had it apart I was thinking that with a light trailboss load I could probably use the rifle like a pump action if I left the forearm off. I'm hoping to try that this weekend.

[Battis]

I'm still pondering that rifle. I found this pic that shows a .357 Maxi and a .351 Winchester cartridge. I can see where a lathe would really be useful. I'm not sure I could do that with a drill press and a file.




http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/357maximadeinto351_zps6e4fba6c.jpg

[Battis]

Buffalo Arms sells the brass at a good price, and they also sell loaded ammo. Where exactly would the extractor groove be cut?

[runfiverun]

it's the bevel in front of the rim.
it don't need to be quite that big for the extractor to grip the rim.
some guy's have just used 357 mag brass and have done fine with it.

[beagle]

I've been procrastinating for years on a test. If you look at a .38 AMU case and a .351 SL case, the rim and groove dimensions are pretty close. Having a few AMU cases stashed from olden days, I tried one in the .351 and it chambered and extracted fine. Now, the rub is the case length but I've been tempted to load a few test rounds and see if they would function with cast loads.

On the extractor groove.... I saw one rifle modified for extra extractor clearance. Probably to allow the extractor to ride higher over a .357 Max unmodified rim./beagle

[Battis]

Buffalo Arms sells the cases at a decent price - $.58 each if you buy 100. I paid alot more than that for 50-70 brass. They also sell loaded cartridges - $26 for 20. I'd probably reload.

[runfiverun]

graf and sons sells three different brands of it off and on.
they also carry plated bullets..
a hundred of each is faaar cheaper than buying 50 loaded rounds.

[Battis]

I went back to the store and put it on hold. They had two others, each for a lot more money. As the price went up, so did the condition. The salesman asked me if I wanted a shooter or a collector's piece. I said shooter. He said you cannot go wrong with the lowest priced one.

[Doc_Stihl]

Good for you Battis. I was sick Thursday till Monday evening otherwise I would have that one on my wall right now.
I finally got my guide rod replaced and now I lost the Buffer. I think that one is lost on the bench so well that I'm going to find it in the mailbox all wrapped up.

[Battis]

That rifle has been haunting me since I saw it. I was kinda hoping you would have grabbed it but there it was. I broke it down and examined it as best as I could with my limited knowledge of these rifles and it looked pretty good. They'll hold it for two months. Like I said, they have two more - one for $450 and one for $535. What powder do you use? KTP is pretty much out of everything but Rileys should have some.

[Doc_Stihl]

My first loads will be Trail boss light loads that surely won't cycle the action. Then work up some Unique loads with a 358311 sized down to see if that will work.

[Battis]

Will cocking the spring downward by hand also eject the spent casing? That is one strong spring.

[bandmiller2]

Batts, I just sold seven boxes of perfect condition WW loaded rounds FMJ (prison rounds). If you have any old line police supply dealers in your area ask, many still have boxes tucked away on the back shelf. Has anyone here ever just used 357 max or mag ammo in a 351,size a 9mm cast boolet down and if necessary put a lighter or heavier spring behind the bolt. ?? Frank C.

[Battis]

I picked up the Winchester .351 Self Loader. The serial number indicates it was made in 1929-1930.
The bore is surprisingly clean, with great rifling. It's been sporterized a little - checkered wrist, butt pad, and this added rear sight. I know there's a name for this sight but I can't remember what it was, and cannot find it online. I'm going to get some ammo from Buffalo Arms to get started, then some Redding dies.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/IMG_1546_zpse3c0b02b.jpg