Spanish Destroyer / 9mm Largo

[Gtek]

Wanting to pop this thing off and doing research on ammo. Have seen all the available options but I have a question in regard to this. Why would a 7.62 / 30 Mauser case not work? My picture books show only .001" larger rim and .002" smaller base, of course expand and trim would be needed on front end. Am I missing something?

[Artful]

Am I understanding that you are wanting to neck up 30 mauser to make 9mm Largo cases?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/941233451/starline-reloading-brass-9mm-largo

or just make them out of cheap 223 brass

mine will load and fire 9x19 luger ammo just fine.

[Gtek]

Well don't I feel silly. After reading all about making up brass, never thought to type in Midwayusa Largo 9x23. Twenty one bucks for a hundred is pretty silly to make some huh, Thank You Mr. Artful. Is it correct when I read that 9x19 is hard on extractors?

[Artful]

I have not seen an issue with my rifle picking up 9x19 out of the magazine, the rim is going between the extractor and bolt face without a problem on mine. And I have talked to a few that just set the existing barrel back and use 9x19 exclusively without issue or other changes. (in fact, one made a swap barrel rifle out of his in 7.62x25 and 9x19 barrels)

In fact I was going to pick up 38 super dies and go the whole route when someone else with one suggested I just try it with 9x19 which I already had. Extractor is like a regular mauser rifle and you always want to have it pick the cartridge up from the magazine and don't put one in the chamber and close the bolt.

[texassako]

I have 2 Destroyers, and neither give a good primer strike with Starline Largo brass. It was only .890" and Largo surplus was .910". It caused an excess headspace problem. .223 brass solved the problem.

[bob208]

i have made it out of .223 brass. but 9mm mag brass is less work. just have to trim it to length.

[Artful]

texassako, that's interesting as obviously when I shoot 9x19 mine is being held by the extractor and not headspacing off the brass and I have not had any misfires.

[texassako]

texassako, that's interesting as obviously when I shoot 9x19 mine is being held by the extractor and not headspacing off the brass and I have not had any misfires.

It was driving me nuts. Some went bang, others after an extra try or 2, and some never went off. I found mention of it elsewhere that used 9mm Mag brass trimmed to fit an individual rifle, and another reference that the Largo is not quite the same as the Bergmann. I compared surplus to the Starline and noticed they were different, and Starline makes it exactly the same length as their .38 Super brass without the rim. I started whittling away at a 9mm Mag case until the bolt closed with no resistance. First one came to .920" and the other .914". I trim all my .223 converted brass to .914" since it shortens during the first firing to .910-.912", or just about the length of the surplus brass. I also recently found that I can headspace off the bullet with the right design in the short cases. I think it was Larry that took the easy route of setting the barrel back to work with .38 Super brass.

[skeettx]

In the early days, I made it from 223 brass
then was able to get some cheap 9mm Win Mag brass and shorten it.
Then Starline brass
You might be suprised that in many rifles, 38 Super brass is just the ticket.

I have also used Starline 38 Super Comp.

38 Super case length is .900 and the semi-rim does a great job.

Starline 9MM Largo Brass (Small Pistol primer)
9x23 Largo, 9x23, 9mm Bayard, 9mm Mars, 9mm Astra, 9mm Borgman, Bayard
0.896 - 0.904 O.A.L.

Mike

[Gtek]

The 9x19 spooks me a little being capable of 35k PSI range and case length issues. I think extractors are 3-5 hundred dollars now and they throw in the rest of the rifle. I have one with a .45 barrel I did years ago, and what I remember in working and machining receiver it was butter soft. Front and rear bridges were not close for optics mount. Think I will cut, soften up and flare a .223 case and do a pound cast and see what this thing really is.

[skeettx]

AND we took the barrel off one Destroyer and rebarreled the action in 7.62x25, what fun and a great shooter.
If I remember correctly we used a Winchester Model 88 barrel in 308 Winchester, with a bad chamber,
cut off the rear of the barrel, and still had enough metal to rethread for the Destroyer, nice contour.

Mike

[Larry Gibson]

I have not seen an issue with my rifle picking up 9x19 out of the magazine, the rim is going between the extractor and bolt face without a problem on mine. And I have talked to a few that just set the existing barrel back and use 9x19 exclusively without issue or other changes. (in fact, one made a swap barrel rifle out of his in 7.62x25 and 9x19 barrels)

In fact I was going to pick up 38 super dies and go the whole route when someone else with one suggested I just try it with 9x19 which I already had. Extractor is like a regular mauser rifle and you always want to have it pick the cartridge up from the magazine and don't put one in the chamber and close the bolt.

I set the barrel back 1/2 turn on mine. That headspaced the chambered perfectly on .38 Super. My destroyer wasn't a pristine model so it didn't matter much. I load for it a lot but the wife shoots most of the ammo up as quick as I can load it even using a 6 cavity 356-120-TC mould and loading on the Dillon 550B:-( As you can see I took off the rear sight and base and D7T'd the barrel for a Contender weaver base which fits the Destroyer barrel contour. I also reshaped the front sight base for an M14 front sight and put a Williams aperture sight on the rear receiver ring. With the Red Dot sight it makes a nice and very fun little "scout". I use a 9mm die to size the cases just enough for proper neck tension. That leaves a sort of tapered case. I've not had any feed issues with .38 Super case loaded ammo in the 3 Destroyer mags I have plus a couple altered M1911 magazines.

Larry Gibson

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[Artful]

The 9x19 spooks me a little being capable of 35k PSI range and case length issues.

Well, I admit I wouldn't do it with a model that only had the bolt handle as the locking lug, but with model I have having a lug and the bolt handle as a back up I'm not worried about it. With 125 gr jacketed, the muzzle energy of 9mm Largo is just slightly lower than a standard-SAAMI pressure 9mm Luger which are lower pressure than NATO spec 9mm Parabellum/9x19, and way lower than +P or +P+ pressures.
Problem is most people hotrod the 9x19 loads.
Factory spec's are
9mm Largo at 127 gr FMJ 1,167 ft/s 384 ft·lb
9mm Luger at 124 gr FMJ 1,200 ft/s 382 ft·lb
most of my 9x19 loads are 147 grn at 1000 fps


Larry - nice rifle

[Larry Gibson]

Artful

I have loaded my modified Destroyer with 38 Super cases way above that: A 358477 at 1200 fps, a 125 Rem JHP at 1500 fps, a 125 XTP at 1700 fps, a 115 XTP at 1700 fps and a 90 gr HC at 1850 fps. I had no pressure signs and shot enough of each to be sure. Don't recommend them and won't put the loads here but the Destroyer seems certainly capable.

Larry Gibson

Please, no hate mail as I'm not recommending the above loads at all. Just telling what I've done. My actual load I use is the Lee 120 gr TC cast bullet over 3 - 3.5 gr Bullseye or WST for 965 fps, excellent accuracy and a lot of fun shooting.

[Doc1]

Just a note on 9mm Largo loads: There is a lot of confusion about loading this old cartridge. IMHO it's more a matter of the firearm involved than the round itself. The old Astra 400 is a blowback design and is not terribly strong. The pistols themselves are well-made, but the design is inherently weak(ish). Similarly, the later Astra 600/43 (which Spain made for the Germans in WWII) is chambered in 9mm Parabellum and is also a blowback design. The Spanish engineers really pushed the envelope with the 600's design and they used some clever features, such as using the hammer's geometry to help control the parabellum pressure. The 600 is also a very well made pistol and is safe with 9mm Parabellum, but it's not a pistol to hotrod or load hot. 9mm Para is just about the limit for these blowback pistols. Readers will note that there are virtually no straight blowback 9mm pistols on the contemporary market.

The Star Modelo Supers are an entirely different story. They are also well-built, but use a much stronger Browning locking breech design. These pistols can be safely loaded hotter than the Astra blowbacks. How hot? There's the rub. Guys argue about this all the time and the history is a bit murky, since Star is long out of business. My personal take is as follows - and note that I'm not recommending that anyone do this, but am only sharing my own practice:

I will load my Star Modelo Super up to .38 Super performance levels, to include hot .38 Super loads, but no higher. Also note that I replaced the stock recoil spring with a heavier Wolff replacement. There are anecdotal stories of people loading them up to 9x23 Win specs which I certainly WON'T do! I don't currently have an Astra 400, but if I did I would not exceed mild 9mm Largo levels. I do have an Astra 600/43 and only load for it to modest 9mm Parabellum levels. I don't own a Destroyer carbine, so will refrain from addressing that subject. Hope this helps.

Best regards
Doc

[Old Ranger]

I've had one of these for 20 plus years. Tried Starline 9mm Largo brass. Found it too short. Got some 9mm Win Mag brass and shortened it to .910. Worked fine for awhile but tends to shortened with repeated loadings.

Used the Lyman TC 9mm bullet. Great little plinking rifle.

[Multigunner]

Years ago I had a French 7.65 Longue pistol and considered converting it to .32 ACP. The fix recommended was to cut a insert from a steel .30 carbine cartridge case to make up the difference. They would coat the short cylindrical ring with lock tight, chamber it ahead of a .32 ACP cartridge and when fired it stayed tight in the chamber, much like the inserts the navy used to convert Garands to 7.62 NATO.
I found my pistol would fire the ACP cartridge well enough without the insert, it fed okay so long as I loaded no more than six rounds in the mag, so I didn't try it.