Do cast lead boolits kill as good as jacket bullets in 30/06

[hanleyfan]

I just bought a 180 gr. mold for the 30/06 and casted a couple hundred boolits and was looking at them and did not realize how small they were compared to my 265 gr. 44 magnum boolits, seriously do these cast 180gr. boolits have the killing power of my 44's? I know jacket 30-06 bullets expand quite a bit an they are used for hunting big game, but these casted I would feel under gunned for anything larger than a small deer.

[Love Life]

Holes kill stuff.

Put them where it kills them and all will be right with the world. There is a cornucopia of real life proof of the 30-06 firing cast killing all manner of things.

[Larry Gibson]

If "dead" as in "kill" is the criteria then yes; cast bullets "kill as good as jacket bullets in 30/06" simply because "dead" is dead.

However, due to lower velocity levels the considered practical range for cast bullets is less than that with the higher velocity of jacketed bullets. Also the higher velocity expanding jacketed bullets cause more internal damage and thus most often kill quicker. Would jacketed bullets not have proven "better" than cast, swaged or even PP'd bullets they would not have almost entirely supplanted such in the commercial hunting ammunition market.

Of course we, as cast bullet aficionados, may consider the cast bullet to be superior they in reality are not superior to cast bullets in higher velocity capable cartridges such as the 30-06. We can make cast bullets much more effective enhancing terminal effect through expansion (softer malleable alloys) and nose design (FP, WFP) and with HP'd cast which maximizes both expansion and nose design. Then given the fact that most all 30-06s have 10" twist barrels they are still of considerable less velocity with cast than with jacketed bullets which translates into a shorter effective range. With some cast bullets of proper weight and a softer malleable alloy for expansion you can PP them and come very close to jacketed bullet performance. However, Jacketed bullets still have the edge as they can have a much better ballistic shape for better external ballistics with a much softer alloy for better terminal effect again at longer ranges.

There are many threads that give details and much discussion as to the effectiveness of .30 cal cast bullets. Those threads also provide instructions on how to enhance the terminal effectiveness of cast bullets. Since most all game is shot on the close side of 200 yards and most of that on the short side of 100 yards the use of a good cast bullet, even in a .30 caliber, is not as ineffective as it might appear. My own favorite .30 cal cast bullet for hunting in numerous .30 cals, including the 30-06, is the 311041 which is cast fairly soft, slightly HP'd and usually driven to 2000 to 2200+ fps. I consider 200 yards as the max effective range and have killed many deer and some other game with that bullet over the years. I've no qualms hunting with .30 cal cast bullets but I do maximize them for terminal effectiveness and do understand their limitations as compared to jacketed bullet in the same cartridge.

Larry Gibson

[DeanWinchester]

Holes kill stuff.

Quite possibly the best post of the day.

[hanleyfan]

I bought this mold for fun mostly, target practice, varmints and the such, never really considered it as a big game hunting round.

[DeanWinchester]

Many of my cast loads have proven to penetrate better than whizz bang fancy copper condoms.

One load in particular is a load I developed for my best friends guide gun in .450 marlin. Slow and heavy beats light and fast for penetration and that .450 with a 450g flat point running around 1800 fps will leave big gaping hole on each side of pretty much any critter west of the Mississippi. Two monstrous holes on say a deer; he/she will spew like a hot can of beer. Unless you sever the nervous system, all kills are blood related. The faster it bleeds, the faster it dies. Most quality cast loads utilizing a decent meplat will make a critter bleed like a geyser. It's century old technology that's been improved on VERY little by jacketed bullets. At typical hunting ranges I can't see any improvement or gain. It's only when you get way out yonder that screaming fast copper wins out. If you're like most us rednecks, you're probably taking shots inside a couple hundred yards. If you've done everything RIGHT in preparing a 180g cast boolit in a 3006, it'll stomp a hole in pretty much whatever. ....and as LoveLife so eloquently put it....holes kill stuff.

[Shiloh]

Why wouldn't they be??
People have been harvesting game and dispatching enemies with lead ammo for a LOT longer than jacketed ammo.

Just as deadly in any given caliber.

Shiloh

[madsenshooter]

Hanleyfan, my cast bullets shot up around 2000fps leave some mighty big holes in the red clay berm of Wolf Creek's range, especially when it's wet. I don't think you'll have any problem killing anything you might find in our neck of the woods, cept maybe that big black cat I saw in southern Perry county once.

[RoyEllis]

"Do cast lead boolits kill..."
If you can't kill it with 180gr '06 boolit cast of correct alloy & pushed reasonably sudden down range then-
A. Your shooting accuracy sux badly or
B. You should've started the party with air support, artillery or main battle tank support. Unless you're near enough to the coast for cruiser/battleship fire support.
Study up young man, all the info needed to be successful in your quest is laid out in the threads surrounding you on this site.:coffeecom

[Bullshop]

I have not too much experience with the 06 and cast for hunting but have taken caribou with the combo, one I remember well.
I was hunting with a friend that has a small plane that flew us north of the Brooks Range where we landed on a strip that was put in for oil exploration.
Caribou there run in large herds and if you wait on them will come very close. I wanted to test some cast in the 06 and figured there would be no shortage of targets. At the time I had a tang safety Ruger that was not especially accurate but plenty good for this job. The boolit that shot the best from this Ruger was the Lyman 314299. This is a spitzer design so I was bumping a small meplate on them of probably about .1". The alloy was straight ACWW. My velocity was running right at about 2000 fps.
On my first chance at a caribou I had one come along broad side at about 50 yards. I placed the shot low in the chest right behind the shoulder as the caribou came by. It lunged forward and ran about 25 yards then swapped ends and came right back on its tracks. As it came by again I was re loaded and ready to shoot but could see the exit hole from the first shot pouring out blood like a garden hose stream. I didn't shoot again as I saw no need and the caribou fell just a few yards past me.
Just the day before I had witnessed another caribou shot with a 375 H&H with a hot hand load with jacketed bullet and it had reacted the very same way.
So in this case the 06 performed as well with a 200gn cast boolit as did a 375 H&H with a 300gn jacketed bullet.

[303Guy]

Well, the only critters I've killed with cast were turkey. I don't know the speed but well within cast limits (they were paper patched so can be driven faster). To make sure I got full penetration I used 225gr boolits with a wide hollow nose and thin rim, the idea being that the hollow nose would work on turkey and the flat nose after the rim blows off would work on pigs. They worked just great on turkey without blowing them up like jacketed's do but still made big holes. One day I'll get back into hunting and try them on goat or deer or pig. I've dropped down to 194gr to fit the magazine without seating below the neck.

[DeanWinchester]

Jeez, I gotta get down there and buy you a beer 303guy one of these days. Then you have GOT to show me them rabbits the size of a Shetland pony and a turkey that needs a 303 British to dispatch!!! LOL!!!!!!!:kidding:

[Uncle Jimbo]

Why wouldn't they be??
People have been harvesting game and dispatching enemies with lead ammo for a LOT longer than jacketed ammo.

Just as deadly in any given caliber.

Shiloh

This is just about the same post as I was going to make. But you beat me to it. ;)

[Blammer]

225gr cast lead 30cal in my 30-06 about a 160 yd shot. ONE shot.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/2010%20Deer/DSCN8323.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/2010%20Deer/DSCN8323.jpg.html)

[Blammer]

what I was aiming for.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/2010%20Deer/DSCN8333.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/2010%20Deer/DSCN8333.jpg.html)

[Blammer]

any questions?

[Love Life]

any questions?

Can I shoot a boolit designed to use a gas check, without a gas check?

[DeanWinchester]

any questions?

Did you sing a little Bon Jovi? Shot through the heart! And you're to blame, darlin' you give love....a bad name.

[44man]

Lot's of good info and a lot of laughs too, good posts. ;)
Larry is correct again too. I have little experience with cast in rifles but a lot with revolvers and seen friends problems with smaller calibers like the .357 even with jacketed.
Alloy is king so you don't want too hard for deer. I have only two calibers that always work with hard boolits, the .44 and .475.
Even some 180 gr+ jacketed are too tough for deer from an 06 so you must treat cast the same. Not so much the weight but the upset of the boolit while keeping penetration. I will never be in the group that wants a boolit to come apart.
My experiences with the 45-70 BFR revolver are a good example, lost two and those I found made over 200 yards with just a hole through them with too hard a boolit. Babore sent me some 420 gr HP's cast of 50-50 and even oven hardened at a little over 1600 fps they destroyed a deer, I will not use them again. They put my meat grinder to shame. [smilie=b:
Cast can be made to do anything from red smoke and total destruction to a pencil hole. and must still be adjusted for animal size. I will not be able to tell anyone what is needed in the 06.
Blammer showed what a good boolit does but how about a 22 BHN boolit from a .475? 105191I lost no meat.
Then a 22 bhn from my .44. 105192
Then too soft from the 45-70. 105193Exit at this shoulder and it was a splintered mass of jelly, ruined and almost fell off with skinning.
Very difficult to get the alloy right and the 06 can do the same.
Balance really comes from experience but cast can be deadly. TOO DEADLY!

[DeanWinchester]

44man, that's just nasty.

Proof's in tha puddin'!

[Smoke4320]

Klingon blood pudding YUM YUM

[dverna]

Boy Larry just nailed it.

I see so many people going ga-ga over cast bullets. I see them only as inexpensive projectiles to shoot paper, steel, and plink when it comes to most rifle shooting. For serious work, find a good jacketed bullet, a good load, buy a couple of hundred of them and be set for life. No fooling around with alloys, age hardening, cold weather vs hot weather lubes, first shot out of a cold barrel, barrel seasoning, etc etc. Why deal with all that for the few shots a year taken at game? I will never understand.

Cast bullets have their place. For the vast majority of people, (who will not do the work), modern high velocity rifle calibers and jacketed bullets are made for each other.

But you do not need a jacketed bullet for most pistol loads and for rifles running under 2000 fps.

Don Verna

[Bigslug]

Did you sing a little Bon Jovi? Shot through the heart! And you're to blame, darlin' you give love....a bad name.

I never really understood that song. He keeps calling the woman "a loaded gun", which I've always taken to mean "useful and comforting to have around". That kinda clashes with the rest of the lyrics. . .:mrgreen:

We may chuckle at it, but like the man says, "holes kill stuff", and lead bullets make nice holes. The terminal side of the lead bullet equation is not what you have to worry about. You will give up some flatness of trajectory due to the somewhat lower speeds, but this is not a problem - especially with the angle-compensating laser rangefinders we have available today. My take on this is to follow the old buffalo hunter notion that if you can't go fast, go big. A heavier slug will hold onto whatever speed you can give it better than a light one. If the Confederacy was able to dispatch Union generals at over 800 yards with 600 grain .45's at 1400fps, we should do just fine under 300 yards with 200-220 grain .30's at 2300.

[shoot-n-lead]

But you do not need a jacketed bullet for most pistol loads and for rifles running under 2000 fps.

Don Verna

I can agree with the above statement...

However, I have seen many animals shot with jacketed rifle bullets that were not nearly "dead right there"...despite all of this "trauma" they produce. In my experience, even the best jacketed bullets tend to perform inconsistently when compared to cast bullets bullets that perform consistently for me, or to say another way, when I pull the trigger on a cast bullet, I am more confident that I know what the result will be even if both yield a dead animal. With the exception of Barnes bullets, bones can wreak havoc with non-cast bullets. I like bullets that penetrate STRAIGHT , I also want 2 holes every time and I have NEVER shot any jacketed bullet that will do that EVERY time.

With that said, your experience doesn't have to match mine...and mine doesn't doesn't have to match yours. Shoot what suits you...

[mozeppa]

yup

loaded my 30-06 with a cast boolit....and a bear crossed my path.

i beat him on the head repeatedly with that rifle until he wuz deadern a door nail!

so ....yes!....cast boolits will kill!:bigsmyl2:

[44man]

44man, that's just nasty.

Proof's in tha puddin'!
Sure don't need over 2000 fps to ruin a deer. I see no point to blow meat to mist just to kill when just right works just as fast. I see it as getting energy inside before boolit exit.
My friend uses nothing but ballistic tips in his 06 for deer because he wants an instant dump. You should see the mess.
I sold my .280 because deer shot at over 200 yards were a mess. I have seen deer blown to smithereens with a 30-30.
Harder to do with cast of course but we can go from bad to worse as easy.
I was just given a box of Sierra 125 gr Pro hunter bullets for the 30-30 and they have a soft lead core with a big HP. Scary as hell. I just can't see myself shooting a deer with them.
Some say "shoot behind the shoulder" but deer at range don't show angles at all so where does the boolit go? Into the off shoulder or through guts? Between trigger break and impact, did the deer move?
Shoot the deer in the head or spine! Need a rifle and a rest with a standing deer. But off hand the spine is about an inch for shots. Head shots not Kosher because you can blow the jaw off. Still an inch shot. So most hunters depend on body hits that need boolit/bullet performance.

[Doc1]

This is a very interesting thread. I confess to my relative inexperience with cast boolets for rifle hunting. Probably 90% of my cast boolets are handgun fodder to keep my reloading costs low. I do some casting for rifles, but this is mostly for low cost plinkers. As with any tool - and that's what boolets/bullets are - experience and dedication expands the possibilities.

I would sometimes hunt (or use as a hunting backup) wild pigs with my Super Blackhawk using boolets. The .44 Magnum holds few surprises for me whether using cast or jacketed. With my rifles, I confess that hunting forays are still limited to jacketed bullets. This isn't a reflection on boolets, but rather my limited experience with them in hunting.

Best regards
Doc

[Love Life]

It never ceases to amaze me at how much people overthink killing.

[Ajax]

:kidding:don't you know lead bounces off deer. They were never able to kill one before the advent of the jacketed boolit. :kidding: [smilie=6: :castmine:


Andy

[44man]

:kidding:don't you know lead bounces off deer. They were never able to kill one before the advent of the jacketed boolit. :kidding: [smilie=6: :castmine:


Andy
Love it, my thoughts exactly.

[Larry Gibson]

Might want to read the OPs question before interjecting shorter range large bore handgun results.........unless y'all are shooting them .44s outa your '06s.....here bubba, hold my beer....... you ain't gonna believe this..........

Larry Gibson

[jhalcott]

GEE WHIZ!!! The O P asked about a 30-06 NOT .357's & 44's! To get back to HIS question, YES cast bullets ARE deadly on deer. Not knowing your alloy is a problem though. MY .30 cast bullets for deer are made from straight wheel weight alloy or harder, like Lyman #2 or even harder. Rarely do I NEED Linotype for hunting. You don't shoot cast at hundreds of yards (normally!), but less than 200 is normal. I have shot many deer with both cast and jacketed bullets in several calibers. WHERE you put the hole is what counts!

[303Guy]

I have this notion that a cast boolit can't be driven fast in a 303 Brit or 30-06 so make it heavy to match the twist rate. The weight might not be needed but it sure won't do any harm and will definitely give more penetration and have more retained velocity at impact. That's assuming the the same muzzle velocity is used which is not problem with the 30-06 for sure and I think with the Brit (haven't played with plain cast in the Brit much. I did once shoot 240gr boolits to supposedly around 1700 fps or less).

[youngda9]

I'm glad the 44 results were shared. Great info, gnarly pics.

[dverna]

Might want to read the OPs question before interjecting shorter range large bore handgun results.........unless y'all are shooting them .44s outa your '06s.....here bubba, hold my beer....... you ain't gonna believe this..........

Larry Gibson

Now don't go confusing people with the facts - LOL

Don Verna

[hanleyfan]

The boolit I am using is a NOE 311041 180gr. GC. and I am using lead that has a Brinell 15 and these are water dropped. I am thinking about 2000-2200 fps. with IMR 4198.

[DeanWinchester]

:kidding:don't you know lead bounces off deer. They were never able to kill one before the advent of the jacketed boolit. :kidding: [smilie=6: :castmine:


Andy


Where'd all the buffalo go?

[Jr.]

Where'd all the buffalo go?

Into the bar up the street. Takes a twelve pack at least to take one of them.

[303Guy]

Isn't Brinell 15 a little hard for expansion? Or maybe I should ask how that compares with water dropped wheel weights? Not having a Brinell hardness tester .... :roll:

[Bullshop]

Isn't Brinell 15 a little hard for expansion? Or maybe I should ask how that compares with water dropped wheel weights? Not having a Brinell hardness tester .... :roll:
This is a simple formula to determine the minimum impact velocity for expansion.
BHN X 100 = impact velocity
Quenched COWW will run about BHN-20

[jhalcott]

MY plain old wheel weights have a BHN of about 12.Lyman #2 is about 15. The BHN can be achieved by altering the alloy contents (lead-tin- antimony) BUT the actual results may differ due to the proportion of tin and antimony. SOME mixes will be tougher than others. SOME will be a bit more brittle. I have shot air cooled wheel weight 311041's at 2150 with great success on deer. I always test my loads for accuracy AND penetration before hunting with them. We pack isn't perfect, but does give an idea what to expect in the field!

[Ajax]

In all seriousness. The meat of the OP's question was about cast performance on animals. The pictures of the 44's kill were definitely relevant. The issue is with reading comprehension. The posts with pictures of terminal performance answer more of his questions than the conjecture in some of the other posts. I am not saying all the other posts were conjecture. But the the meat and potatoes of his question was really about terminal performance of cast boolits Vs. jacketed bullets.


Andy

[Larry Gibson]

But the the meat and potatoes of his question was really about terminal performance of cast boolits Vs. jacketed bullets. IN THE 30-06.

I beg to differ in opinion and added (put in bold) the left out relevant part. There is a big difference in terminal performance of bullet, cast or jacketed, as they approach and go over 2000 fps. That is well documented in many studies. If you want to make and apples to apples comparison then drop the 180 gr .30 cal cast bullet down to the same velocity as the larger .44 caliber and then demonstrate the same level of terminal affect; problem is it won't be there will it?

Also one or two pictures of apparent massive damage (mostly just blood shot and not real damage) can be shown with most bullet/cartridge combinations. Anyone who has taken numerous game animals with the same bullet/load will see that sort of damage occasionally, minimal damage on other occasions and mostly moderate damage on most occasions. I've shot enough deer and a few other game animals with .30 cal rifles and 44 magnum handguns with jacketed and cast bullets to know the difference. I have all the respect in the world for 44man, his accomplishments and abilities but his comparison is apples to oranges.

Larry Gibson

[357maximum]

Holes kill stuff.

Put them where it kills them and all will be right with the world. There is a cornucopia of real life proof of the 30-06 firing cast killing all manner of things.


This thread needed not go past post #2 :drinks:

[Larry Gibson]

Ya know, on further contemplation, you guys are absolutely correct. Why I can show you the massive damage to a couple little deers front shoulders by a soft cast C457-500-FN HD'd and pushed along at 2150 fps. Can also show you the mangled front quarters of a little deer shot with a soft cast 377449 at 2200 fps. I'd like to show you the same damage inflicted by a 30-06, .308W or even a 30-30 with 177 - 190 gr cast bullets at the same velocity but I just can't seem to get the same damage...........hmmmmmmmmm?

I've seen close to the same damage in up close little deer with 150 gr jacketed '06 though...........pray tell can you experts tell me what am I doing wrong with my .30 cal cast bullets in the '06 and other .30 cals so as to not get the same damage as jacketed 30-06 bullets at 2700 - 2900+ fps? And wow, why can't my cast bullets kill a deer "as good" at 400 yards like a 165 - 180 gr jacketed bullet will? Please share your secrets with us lowly ones who understand the range limitations of cast bullets as compared to jacketed bullets in .30 caliber for hunting...........?

Holes don't always kill; I've killed a few deer and elk and inspected numerous others as a LEO with healed over bullet wounds, even those in the "kill zone" like the lungs. There are a lot of alive war veterans that have healed bullet wounds also and a lot of alive dirt bags in prison with healed bullet wounds. Just because something, even wild game w/o medical attention, is shot does not mean it will die. It also does not mean it will die quickly even if "put them where it kills them" is the case and even then it does not guarantee it will kill them.

I would really like to see that "cornucopia of real life proof of the 30-06 firing cast killing all manner of things" as compared to jacketed bullets in the 30-06.....which was, after all, the real question of this thread. I do not believe we do the OP justice here leading him down a path to believe cast bullets are every bit "as good" as jacketed bullets in and '06 when they are not. Yes they are certainly good enough to hunt with under limited conditions as compared to jacketed bullets. Overall cast bullets, in the 30-06 are not "as good" (even though I love cast bullets dearly) as jacketed bullets. Of course that's just my opinion based on having killed a lot of deer with both cast and jacketed bullets using .30 caliber rifles including the 30-06 which has been my "go to" serious hunting rifle for many years.

Larry Gibson

[357maximum]

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it think...no matter how long you hold it's head under the water. :banghead:

Your exterior ballistics are too adversely affected by your entrenched beliefs/limits in interior ballistics. Wanna make an 06 castboolit perform like it's j-word brethren.....push it faster and ignore what you deem as limits for once. The truth is all over this forum for those that have a mind willing to accept others ideas and not just their own. A closed mind is a terrible place to baste.

[waksupi]

A lot of that massive damage, I have always considered bullet failure.

[357maximum]

A lot of that massive damage, I have always considered bullet failure.


Me too, but when one is trying to flatten trajectory with 7mm-32 caliber cast you must run closer to "boolit failure" to succeed in FPS....alloy is the answer I have found to negate this trait. I have the BRP 311041 doing 2600 in my Charles Daly Mauser...if I get a chance to venture into the rifle zone this fall I will post some pics of what the 4element boolits do. The answers lie in the copper enhancement threads that apparently only a handful of fellas have actually read and comprehended. Binary and terinary alloys come with limits and threshholds that the 4part alloys are not bound to. Several of us have proven this and I have proven it in the deer woods, some just do not seem to absorb the info.....very frustrating indeed. :banghead:

[triggerhappy243]

For many years, pre 1925, hunters have killed deer and elk with a simple 30-30 winchester with i believe..... Lead bullets. Did i hear someone say shot placement?

[357maximum]

triggerhappy......attaboy............I believe all of it started in 1903/1906 with a bottlenecked 30 caliber round...it was not until then that they started dipping deer in kevlar I spose. :drinks:


Shot placement....that is why one of my favorite 100yard targets is golfball hangin on a string......when you can consistently hit them,,,,,,,deer are cakewalk if you can keep your wits about ya.....obviously not all castbooliteers can contain their shake until after the shot is done and the venison is claimed however. :confused:

[44man]

More good things said and Larry hit the nail square when he said not all holes kill. Just poking a hole is as bad a failure as ruining a deer, worse in fact, you can lose the deer.
That is why I don't know what alloy to use in the 06, never did it. To make the boolit faster will not always cut it. You can just make a faster hole!
Long ago I read in the PA game news about a guy that found a growth in a buck, he called the warden. They found a huge stick came through the chest and through the heart, it healed up and the deer was fine. They determined the deer ran into a fire sharpened branch and it broke off. That branch was about 1" in diameter.
I have shot three deer with healed in 6" pieces of arrows with broadheads, in the chest cavities, also healed in bullets in about four deer.
Even a .45 cal boolit can be a paper punch. Energy must still be at the right place inside an animal.
It is wrong to say "all you need is a hole." It is why a blade is used on arrows instead of field points. You can shoot a field point through a deer at 180 fps or 320 fps, which will kill? Neither will. At least for a deer you want in the freezer.

[btroj]

Is this argument any different from those about whether or not a 270 is adequate for elk, or using a 22-250 on deer?

It comes down to using a load you know and trust that is appropriate for the ranges at which you hunt. Use something that is accurate enough to make a good killing shot and pass up bad shots.

For MY needs a cast bullet in an 06 is just as good as a jacketed. I hunt where 100 yard shots are long so why do I need more?

In the end it matters not WHAT you hit them with as much as it does WHERE.

Get close, then even closer, and put a cast bullet where it needs to be and you will soon have a pile of meat.

[Lead Fred]

Shot with cast & black powder

105369

[Lead Fred]

Shot with cast & black powder

105369

Dead is dead

[Moonie]

Where'd all the buffalo go?

Brucellosis

:violin:

[44man]

Looks like all my empty beer cans! :holysheep

[1Shirt]

I prefer to listen to Larry and 44 Man. Always get straight scoop, that I most always agree with.
1Shirt!

[Larry Gibson]

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it think...no matter how long you hold it's head under the water. :banghead:

Now isn't that the truth......

Your exterior ballistics are too adversely affected by your entrenched beliefs/limits in interior ballistics.

No, my "beliefs" are entrenched by facts; facts based on actual experiments and facts based on the laws of Physics and Ballistics.

Wanna make an 06 castboolit perform like it's j-word brethren.....push it faster and ignore what you deem as limits for once. The truth is all over this forum for those that have a mind willing to accept others ideas and not just their own. A closed mind is a terrible place to baste.

No doubt the OP has a 10" twist '06. You all have had ample opportunities to show us how to shoot a naked cast bullet at jacketed bullet velocities with equal ore even any semblance of useable accuracy out of any 10" twist '06. None of you have; that is a fact. The fact is a few of us are shooting .30 caliber naked cast bullets with accuracy at 2600+ fps but to do so we understand the laws of Physics and Ballistics and use slower twist barrels. That is a fact. Additionally we understand that to do so, even with a slower twist barrel, requires a very hard alloy that will either shatter on game or penetrate like a FMJ with no expansion. Tests are confirming that. Thus even with similar velocities a non expanding cast bullet is still not "as good" as an expanding jacketed bullet. That is a fact.

Yes, we do see others "all over this forum for those that have a mind willing to accept others ideas and not just their own." That however does not make those ideas correct, especially when they go against the laws of Physics and Ballistics. They also go against historical fact; jacketed bullets have supplanted cast and PP'd bullets because they are better at HV. That is a fact.

I learn many things here from others. All is not my idea. You and a couple others continue to criticize because you think some things change with the RPM Threshold. The basic premise has not changed. Some things may have seemingly changed to a couple of you because the more we experiment with proven scientific methods the more we learn. Thus things have not really changed but have evolved and expanded as we understand more about the RPM threshold, what it is and what it does.

Yes a closed mind is a terrible waste (was you word usage a pun or just incorrect spelling?) and I beseech you and the few others to open your minds and learn along with the rest of us.

Now with all of that I see no need to carry on any further. The OP has adequate information relating to his question regarding the '06. The OP did not ask if "dead" was "dead" or if a cast bullet will "kill" anything. He simply asked if cast bullets in the '06 would "kill" "as good" as jacketed bullets. Cast bullets will certainly "kill" when used in the '06 but "as good" as jacketed bullets which are at 700+ fps faster and expand much better? No they won't and that is a fact. All the pictures of piles of bones and bloody carcasses will not alter that fact regardless of how much we love our cast bullets.

The OP's question was regarding the '06. Thus can any of you show us how you are shooting cast bullets (naked ones as the OP did not mention PP'd ones) at equal velocities and accuracy to jacketed bullets in any 10" twist (that's what 99% of them come with) '06 and relate the terminal effect on any game shot? I thought not.

This thread has run it's course in my opinion so you all have a good day.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Right on, I go along with stopping, proof is in the pudding, so to say.

[357maximum]

Larry I agree with you...this thread has run it's course....the same course they always take. The simple answer to the OP is YES, but that apparently is an opinion only held by a few on this forum...so be it.

I had never read one single word about casting when I started making gc rifle boolits and using j-word load data....ignorance truly is bliss........My limits are learned when the paper target says I can go no farther or the primer pocket says I can go no farther which ever comes first....not by preconcieved notions. I have failed to reach top end j-word speed in exactly one rifle, and that darned 243 is still not done being subjected to my will...not just yet.

The NRA and others have had 30/06 cast going over the limits and thresholds for well over 6 decades now it is nothing new or innovative......... and the proof pudding party sent out the invites this year and no one RSVP'ed...bout all I got to say bout that.

[357maximum]

Early last year I bought a 30-06 1/10 twist Charles Daly commercial Mauser....using what personal/others experience has taught me I literally pulled my 1st 30-06 load from a manual in the j-word data....I hit 2400fps with M.O.A accuracy using the 311041 and IMR4064 on the first try.....the other 2-300 fps were not hard to gain using H4350/Hybrid100/H414 powders.......Balance the burn rate and the alloy to match your barrel length and what seems impossible to some.... can be a big ol can of easy...just need to open your mind a bit. I have not shot a deer with it yet, but I KNOW it will do just fine when I get the chance to use it north of the shotgun/rifle line that seperates Southern Michigan from the rest.

Another violation of the threshold:

1-9 twist 135Gr 7mm boolit at 2512FPS with SUB-MOA ...the physical pressure limit of the cartridge/contender platform...not the barrel:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?171783-7mmTHOR-7TCU-Carbine-Venison

[357maximum]

Here is another one, but this one is a "CHEATER" as it has a 14 twist.....225grain cast at 2600-2700 is not hard at all...in fact this gun sits most the time as it has become "boring" on 250-300 yard 1.5 MOA steel targets:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?68897-BRP-360-220-35Whelen-success

[Larry Gibson]

357maximum

There in is the problem; apparently a gross failure to communicate on my part. I have always said the RPM Threshold was not a "limit", the 120,000 - 140,000 RPM range applied to naked ternary alloy cast bullets and there were ways to push the RPM threshold up. Seems no matter how many times I say that some just don't seem to get it. I must just not be saying it right..........?

In your first 2 examples you add Cu to the alloy which no longer makes it a "ternary alloy". Isn't hardening the ternary alloy with the addition of Cu one of the ways to push the RPM Threshold up I've mentioned numerous times? I thought I had? Also neither of those examples is at the top end velocity those cartridges are capable of. Push them faster and accuracy goes, right? Well then guess where the RPM threshold is with that alloyed bullets and load? I have never said the RPM threshold was a "limit" at 140,000 RPM. Those of you who apparently fail to understand what is said continue to call it a "limit" or a "wall". But again I guess I'm just not saying that clear enough for some to understand, so my "bad" and apologies, eh?

You also mention selecting and using slower burning powders.....well hello world.....isn't that also one of the primary things I have been saying all along is essential to push the RPM Threshold up? There I go again not being clear about things I guess.

As for the 3rd example; you used a 14" twist and at 2700 fps the RPM is 138,857. What part of exceeding the "limit" as some call it or the real RPM Threshold is that? I have been recommending the slower twists such as the 12, 14 and 16" twists for how long now in this RPM Threshold discussion? Again apparently I am failing to communicate because some just are not getting it, eh?

Are we sure the constant argument over this topic is not just because of disdain for me? It must be something because the facts presented against the RPM Threshold are just dogs that don't hunt. Harden the bullet by HTing or adding Cu or both, use a slower burning powder to lessen the time/pressure curve or any of several other things like PPing or adding a jacket and the RPM threshold goes up. Use a too soft alloy, a poorly designed bullet of a poorly cast one, use a too fast powder, etc. and the RPM threshold goes down. Point is there is a threshold with cast, PP'd or jacketed.

Here's a 10 shot group I shot not too long ago with my own 14" twist .308W using a ternary alloy. Not hard to do at all if one controls the RPM. Yup, it can be done. Want to see the 200 and 300 yard groups again?

Larry Gibson

105408

[357maximum]

Larry

You well know I have no disdain for you, we would not exchange pm's the way we do iffin I did. I think we both have communication issues apparently....I KNOW I stink at succincly expressing myself via the typed word....I prove it everytime I type. I try to help a few fellers with boolit lube and I am the villian, I try to open minds with what is possible with cast...again I am the villian.............. I guess it all boils down to me having a pet peeve about percieved limits of any kind other than what the brass seal brings to the table, and a severe disability to share my thoughts in a way that does not come off in the way I intend....my fault not yours. What were we arguing about again? :drinks:

[dubber123]

Well, I have gotten a TON of help from both of you, so I hope you both intend on sticking around for a while..

[Larry Gibson]

Sorry 357maximum

I was directing that comment more at a couple others who know who they are. My apologies. Nice work with that Whelen BTW. Now if the question of this thread had been; Are cast bullets as good in the 35 Whelen with a 14" twist barrel as are jacketed bullets? I would have to say with 100% surety.....you can bet your a** they are:guntootsmiley:

I think we are agreeing a whole lot actually but are directing our comments to others to each other (hope that makes sense?). When I get up there to shoot with you guys the cold ones are on me:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[357maximum]

Larry

I am more of a MD20/20, Boones Farm, Wild Turkey101, Patron/Jose kinda feller....and it need not be cold. If you see me drinking beer, do not bother with conversation I have passed the point of no return and will soon be falling down for a little nap. :drinks:

[357maximum]

Paul

While I do get frustrated here on occassion and force myself to take an occassional sanity break....... I ain't going nowhere no time soon, that would give the one feller on this board that I do have a little amount of disdain for waaay too much joy. Besides who would argue with Larry over terminology iffin I did take my toys and go home? :lol:

[popper]

Bullshop - he was being kind to you so you didn't have to track him down.
Hanlyfan - I've shot jacks with a cheap pellet rifle, no difference between jacketed or plain target rounds. They die pretty quick - don't even get out of the back yard. I don't even know where I hit them. Your choice of load needs to be tailored to the range and target. Even jacketed bullets have an expansion/fracture fps range. Just another decision YOU have to make. Check out the hunting section - lots of large bucks taken with 30, 7,243 (small) calibers.

[dubber123]

Glad to hear it.. I've got a couple .35 bores I have begun tinkering on, so I will likely be picking both your brains.. :) Thanks guys.

[swheeler]

Early last year I bought a 30-06 1/10 twist Charles Daly commercial Mauser....using what personal/others experience has taught me I literally pulled my 1st 30-06 load from a manual in the j-word data....I hit 2400fps with M.O.A accuracy using the 311041 and IMR4064 on the first try.....the other 2-300 fps were not hard to gain using H4350/Hybrid100/H414 powders.......Balance the burn rate and the alloy to match your barrel length and what seems impossible to some.... can be a big ol can of easy...just need to open your mind a bit. I have not shot a deer with it yet, but I KNOW it will do just fine when I get the chance to use it north of the shotgun/rifle line that seperates Southern Michigan from the rest.



Another violation of the threshold:

1-9 twist 135Gr 7mm boolit at 2512FPS with SUB-MOA ...the physical pressure limit of the cartridge/contender platform...not the barrel:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?171783-7mmTHOR-7TCU-Carbine-Venison

Now Mike we all know that isn't possible, can't be done, ain't goin to happen, nope never:) You got to have a special tight necked chamber(which your CD mauser doesn't) the chamber has to be reamed by the wizard of" OZ", all brass has to be neck turned to the 20th decimal point;) and the rifle has to be blessed by the anointed one:):) plus you live toooooooooo far NORTH for that kind of accuracy! Where the purple coloring?

[357maximum]

Scott

I just dance naked in the moonlight while chanting 30/06, 30/06, 30/06 ....and all sorts of impossible things happen.

[swheeler]

That is something I DON'T want to see!!

[swheeler]

357maximum

There in is the problem; apparently a gross failure to communicate on my part. I have always said the RPM Threshold was not a "limit", the 120,000 - 140,000 RPM range applied to naked ternary alloy cast bullets and there were ways to push the RPM threshold up. Seems no matter how many times I say that some just don't seem to get it. I must just not be saying it right..........?

In your first 2 examples you add Cu to the alloy which no longer makes it a "ternary alloy". Isn't hardening the ternary alloy with the addition of Cu one of the ways to push the RPM Threshold up I've mentioned numerous times? I thought I had? Also neither of those examples is at the top end velocity those cartridges are capable of. Push them faster and accuracy goes, right? Well then guess where the RPM threshold is with that alloyed bullets and load? I have never said the RPM threshold was a "limit" at 140,000 RPM. Those of you who apparently fail to understand what is said continue to call it a "limit" or a "wall". But again I guess I'm just not saying that clear enough for some to understand, so my "bad" and apologies, eh?

You also mention selecting and using slower burning powders.....well hello world.....isn't that also one of the primary things I have been saying all along is essential to push the RPM Threshold up? There I go again not being clear about things I guess.

As for the 3rd example; you used a 14" twist and at 2700 fps the RPM is 138,857. What part of exceeding the "limit" as some call it or the real RPM Threshold is that? I have been recommending the slower twists such as the 12, 14 and 16" twists for how long now in this RPM Threshold discussion? Again apparently I am failing to communicate because some just are not getting it, eh?

Are we sure the constant argument over this topic is not just because of disdain for me? It must be something because the facts presented against the RPM Threshold are just dogs that don't hunt. Harden the bullet by HTing or adding Cu or both, use a slower burning powder to lessen the time/pressure curve or any of several other things like PPing or adding a jacket and the RPM threshold goes up. Use a too soft alloy, a poorly designed bullet of a poorly cast one, use a too fast powder, etc. and the RPM threshold goes down. Point is there is a threshold with cast, PP'd or jacketed.

Here's a 10 shot group I shot not too long ago with my own 14" twist .308W using a ternary alloy. Not hard to do at all if one controls the RPM. Yup, it can be done. Want to see the 200 and 300 yard groups again?

Larry Gibson

105408


Larry that is very impressive 10 shot group at 100 yds! 2600 fps with grease grooved boolits and sub MOA 10 shot, WOW!

[Larry Gibson]

Have to admit that is an awfully good HV cast bullet group. Those who've followed the progress of shooting at HV know that it really is a consistent 1.5 moa average for 8 - 10 shots with that rifle and load. Some days it's down around 1 moa and others it's pushing 2 moa. That holds to 300 yards. No extravagant claims of always shooting HV sub MOA with naked cast bullets all the time from me even though I do manage it about one third of the time with that 14" twist Palma .308W rifle. Some claim they can shoot sub moa with cast bullets at HV all the time from any rifle any time, so be it. I only claim and give detailed report on what I've succeeded at and what doesn't work.

Can't progress any further with that rifle as I've run out of case capacity and it's running 40,000+ psi with that load (measured with M43 Oehler in that rifle). Looking for slightly more capacity, a 16" twist barrel 28 - 30" long to progress further. The 30x57 will be the initial choice with the option of chambering to '06. Either of those cartridges should keep the psi under or at the same 40,000 in the 2900 +/- fps range. I'm looking at that velocity range with the same 1 - 2 moa accuracy with naked ternary alloyed cast bullets of with Cu added.

Unfortunately none of this has anything to do with the OPs question but the question was answered earlier:hijack:

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

I just thought it needed recognition, nice accomplishment. IIRC that was a Danish(maybe Norski) 27.5 inch take off barrel with 1:14 twist and you finish reamed the chamber by hand with a SAAMI spec reamer. I'm kicking myself for missing those Parker Hale 26" 14 twist barrels Sarco was selling ten years ago:( think they were 99 bucks)

[357maximum]

A big PLUS ONE on the shooting Larry, VERY IMPRESSIVE....EVEN THOUGH YOU DID NOT HIT THE 'BUGHOLE JOE" STANDARD. :lol:

I always blame the minimal wandering/waxing/waning day to day groupsize on myself, but I honestly feel that somedays it is simply humidity/climate...any thoughts?

[swheeler]

A big PLUS ONE on the shooting Larry, VERY IMPRESSIVE....EVEN THOUGH YOU DID NOT HIT THE 'BUGHOLE JOE" STANDARD. :lol:

I always blame the minimal wandering/waxing/waning day to day groupsize on myself, but I honestly feel that somedays it is simply humidity/climate...any thoughts?

I've thought about moving to Tenn so I could "BUGHOLE" naw too many bugs!;)

[44man]

Come here! We have gnats so thick they carry the gun to the range. Suckers BITE and leave itchy welts. I think they make me shoot bad when I hit tons of them.

[cattleskinner]

Mike,

For some reason I pictured a scene from Escanaba In Da Moonlight with your chanting comment.

[Hamish]

I for one hope that you two never actually get mad at each as the repeated gnawing that you two and others have done on this subject and so many others have been nothing but mind opening for me to better understand the weird, wonderful, and sometimes malevolent forces at work when the sear breaks.

The only thing that bothers me is the periodic reminder that the more you know, the more there is to learn,,,,,,,,I sure would have liked to have gotten started with this a couple three decades ago,,,,,,they thing that cheers me right back up is knowing how many are and will be learning from these discussions.


EDIT: (what a sap) :kissarse:

[44man]

I for one hope that you two never actually get mad at each as the repeated gnawing that you two and others have done on this subject and so many others have been nothing but mind opening for me to better understand the weird, wonderful, and sometimes malevolent forces at work when the sear breaks.

The only thing that bothers me is the periodic reminder that the more you know, the more there is to learn,,,,,,,,I sure would have liked to have gotten started with this a couple three decades ago,,,,,,they thing that cheers me right back up is knowing how many are and will be learning from these discussions.
Understand Larry and .357max are not enemies. Just puts some spice here. Good, hard working guys. I see them sharing BBQ and beer together. Both a tribute to all of us.
Personally, I will thank both and see nothing wrong with a little banter.
Can I join in a BBQ with all of you? Why the hell do we live so far apart?

[Larry Gibson]

The only "fighting" we'd do is over the check for the BBQ beer:drinks:

I look forward to a shooting session with him, badgeredd and a couple others in the future.

Larry Gibson

[357maximum]

Mike,

For some reason I pictured a scene from Escanaba In Da Moonlight with your chanting comment.

Do not try to picture things too hard....ya just might succeed and find images far more disturbing that random thoughts by Jeff Daniels.

[357maximum]

Hamish


Larry and I have very similar views on cast....he just uses the wrong terminology is all. No hard feelings ever between him and I ....not from my side anyway.


Creative "banter" helps the limits of "possible" get pushed a bit.....I think that stifling good honest banter to be one of the main things wrong with this site, as long as it is a respectable banter....let it ride...... all will learn something including the banterer's. Tis one of the reasons I actually miss STARMETAL on occassion.....if nothing else he pushed people to try things they might not normally try. One will never know where the edge of the desk resides iffin they do not push the envelope occassionally....Joe was really good at that in his own special way......it is just a bit too bad that he could not always contain his excitement to match the tame standards of this board......he had alot to teach....most importantly open mindness about what may be possible with cast.

[357maximum]

Can I join in a BBQ with all of you? Why the hell do we live so far apart?

Jim
I do not like heat/chiggers/ and other bitey crawly things...that is why I live where I do, get too close to your zipcode and everthing has little bitey teeth, plus it gets hot...I did mention I do not like heat right?...... and you are welcome at my little ranch-ette anytime you make it this far into The Central Michi-braska Flatlands. :drinks:

[Blood Trail]

Awesome thread.

[swheeler]

Mike,

For some reason I pictured a scene from Escanaba In Da Moonlight with your chanting comment.

That's funny cause I had more a vision of Ed Gein dancing under a full moon!:) sorry Mike couldn't resist

[357maximum]

That's funny cause I had more a vision of Ed Gein dancing under a full moon!:) sorry Mike couldn't resist


Not much of a "trophy" keeper myself, antlers and a few skulls, no wastebaskets made of human flesh or nothing like that. Basically if it does not have big canines or antlers I let ma nature recycle it back into something useful. Nice to know I am held in such high regard there Scooter. :lol:

[swheeler]

:):):):):)

[44man]

Jim
I do not like heat/chiggers/ and other bitey crawly things...that is why I live where I do, get too close to your zipcode and everthing has little bitey teeth, plus it gets hot...I did mention I do not like heat right?...... and you are welcome at my little ranch-ette anytime you make it this far into The Central Michi-braska Flatlands. :drinks:
True, the gnats have been out full force and the rotten things bite and leave big, itchy welts. We have very few skeeters but a few ticks, no chiggers.
Been trying to teach gnats how to carry my guns down to the range! Stupid things work for the gov't though!
Need a flame thrower to work outside.
Ohio had skeeters but repellent worked, NOTHING keeps gnats away.
When in the army I was at Camp Drum for a while and they gave us 6-12 repellent, black flies loved the stuff so I smeared my helmet liner with it. back at the barracks, I needed a stick to scrape the pounds off the liner. Can't buy the stuff anymore.
I have a bunch of little bottles of 100% Deet from the Corps and it doesn't work. Daughters were Marines and got me the stuff.
I don't like heat either, born in Ohio, give me a raging snowstorm to hunt in any day.

[44man]

That's funny cause I had more a vision of Ed Gein dancing under a full moon!:) sorry Mike couldn't resist
Scary is Nancy P dancing naked in Kalifornication to kill brush so they have no more fires.

[44man]

The only "fighting" we'd do is over the check for the BBQ beer:drinks:

I look forward to a shooting session with him, badgeredd and a couple others in the future.

Larry Gibson
No problem Larry, I will buy or make the beer. Might even have some genuine WV Ridge Ripple for all. You can fly back home without a plane!

[Larry Gibson]

I haven't "done" Ripple in many, many years.....my head hurts just thinking about it.........:veryconfu

Larry Gibson

[44man]

I should spray the gnats and see how drunk they get. On second thought, they would bring more friends! :holysheep They would even bring the old, fat ones!

[PhantomF4E]

what I was aiming for.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/2010%20Deer/DSCN8333.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/2010%20Deer/DSCN8333.jpg.html)

Even with that hole , I would split that bad boy open stuff it with some mushroom and onion wild rice , toss in a couple of asparagus spears , bake it at about 350 for 45 mins to an hour and made one heck of a meal out of it . That's a nice looking pumper right there ..... Well nicer before the hole , but ya wouldn't be eatin' if it was still pumpin'

[MBTcustom]

Even with that hole , I would split that bad boy open stuff it with some mushroom and onion wild rice , toss in a couple of asparagus spears , bake it at about 350 for 45 mins to an hour and made one heck of a meal out of it . That's a nice looking pumper right there ..... Well nicer before the hole , but ya wouldn't be eatin' if it was still pumpin'

Licking pencil, flipping notepad.

[44man]

Licking pencil, flipping notepad.
Me too, sounds like good eats.
We stray like mad but it is good, panties in a wad will always hurt. Like wearing smaller shoes so your feet don't look so big.
ME, I want more deer heart recipes since we went there.
I know, cast in the 06 but cast can do a lot in any gun. The wrong alloy on that heart would destroy it.