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mattd
05-15-2014, 11:10 PM
Was trying to load a LLA lubed bator out of my mini 14 for quite garden patrol. 1g of Unique shot pretty well, but was a little loud so dropped it down to .5g. Bullet stuck just in front of the chamber. Loaded another w 1g and some cream of wheat and tried to shoot it out. It moved it to in front of the gas block, and there she sits. I tried a third 1.5g load, but it didnt budge.

Went with a brass rod from the muzzle end and a couple good whacks w a 2lbs hammer didn't move it, but bent my rod. Put some kroil in the muzzle end and let it sit for 2 days. No sign of it getting past, but hit it with brass rod and hammer again and no movement.

Read that freezing it might help. So filled it back up w kroil and in the freezer for 24 hours. also went and got a 3/16 steel rod. Same result. I put my brass crown protector I use for cleaning and really took some hard hits to it. It's not budging.

I put a lot of kroil in this time from the chamber end and will let that sit over nite, but my hopes aren't high.

Any other ideas?

DrCaveman
05-15-2014, 11:24 PM
Oooh boy. Im surprised you dared try to shoot it out. Surely you're not the first, so hopefully someone with experience will chime in

That stuck boolit is probably smooshed pretty good, lets say "well obturated". That aint gonna make it easier, especially with two more smooshed up behind it. If you do manage to get things moving, make sure you have a good amount of oil downstream to ease the process.

This sounds like a pickle. Ill be interested to see how it turns out

My advice: use the brass rod after the FIRST stuck boolit

mattd
05-15-2014, 11:32 PM
Sorry. Thats confusing. There's only one bullet in there. The second and third were just powder and cream of wheat then a little Dacron to keep the CoW in place.

Jr.
05-15-2014, 11:35 PM
1/8 in steel dowel wrapped in electrical tape to make for a snug fit that won't damage the riflings. Oil the exit path with a good penetrating oil.

Mk42gunner
05-16-2014, 12:31 AM
I would get the largest thin wall tubing that will fit down the bore, then make a long drill that will fit inside the tubing and drill the center of the boolit out. Then with a close fitting jag or steel rod the rest should come out semi-easily.

I know hind-sight is 20/20, but you do realize you could have driven it out the first time without a bit of drama with the 2lb hammer, don't you?

Robert

joesig
05-16-2014, 12:34 AM
Is the CoW stuck behind the boolit too? I'd think that has to go before you'll ever get that boolit to move.

File the 3/16 brass rod into a spade bit, wrap with tape and drill it out. You won't get all of it. You'll probably have to mushroom one end and push the rest out.

Check for bulge in barrel.

mikeym1a
05-16-2014, 12:38 AM
You could try to drill out the center. Lead is very difficult to drill, it packs tight into the normal twist drill. You would need to set the bit into a wooden dowel with epoxy, and of course, make sure it was straight, and use a 'bit and brace' style drill. I would make cardboard sleeves for the dowel to keep it centered. remove and clean the drill bit often. Once you got all the way through the center of the boolit, then you might be able to drive it out. I do not know if this would work, but it is how I would proceed.

tomme boy
05-16-2014, 01:03 AM
Fill the barrel with mercury. Let it sit in a bucket with the muzzle down. Come back the next day and you won't have a boolit stuck anymore.

rhead
05-16-2014, 05:37 AM
I would get the largest thin wall tubing that will fit down the bore, then make a long drill that will fit inside the tubing and drill the center of the boolit out. Then with a close fitting jag or steel rod the rest should come out semi-easily.

I know hind-sight is 20/20, but you do realize you could have driven it out the first time without a bit of drama with the 2lb hammer, don't you?

Robert
ditto the lead needs someplace to go when you tap it.

Lead Fred
05-16-2014, 06:24 AM
I have a 1/4 in rod just for this, also try compressed air in the muzzle

Whitespider
05-16-2014, 06:57 AM
I know this is gonna' sound a bit scary... and it will be easier with two people.
Worst case... completely disassemble the gun, including removing the gas block. Secure the barrel in a vertical position, such as a padded vise, with one end resting on wooding blocks. Use a brass rod with only and inch or two protruding (to get the boolit moving, then switch to a longer rod as needed). Use a propane torch to slowly heat the barrel in the area of the boolit... use an up and down sweeping motion so you don't create a small localized "hot spot". The second person will be tapping on the brass rod as you bring the heat up. As soon as the boolit moves remove the heat, but carefully continue to tap out the boolit. Allow the barrel to cool naturally... the amount of heat required shouldn't be enough to damage the finish or change the metal in any way.

Oh... I've "heard" of using a heat gun rather than a propane torch, but I've only "heard" of that.
Might be worth a try if you're afraid of the torch.

petroid
05-16-2014, 07:30 AM
As Whitespider said, I think some heat is in order. Just be careful. A heat gun should do the trick you're not trying to melt the lead just warm the barrel. You don't want the lead to soften really or it will squish when you try to tap it out.

Whitespider
05-16-2014, 07:39 AM
Yeah, I should have explained that... the heat ain't for melting, or even heating the lead.
The idea is to cause the barrel to expand ever-so-slightly and release the "grip"... it won't take near as much heat as you think it will.

Pb2au
05-16-2014, 08:09 AM
As others have said, make a brass spade bit, put that in a brace and simply drill it out. Patience is your ally now.

jonp
05-16-2014, 08:12 AM
Sorry. Thats confusing. There's only one bullet in there. The second and third were just powder and cream of wheat then a little Dacron to keep the CoW in place.

You had me wondering on that point. I was going to suggest a full Kevlar body suit and a full load for a 4th try at shooting it out since you seem like a daredevil! Try a long drill with the protection mentioned by MK42 and lots of Kroil.

Whitespider's idea will probably work and I would try that first. You won't need much heat.

mdi
05-16-2014, 10:51 AM
Read all the answers and I think (as a retired lifelong machinist/mechanic) the mercury is a good answer (if you can find any). Perhaps even 50-50 white vinegar hydrogen peroxide, but don't leave it long as it can damage the barrel steel. Mini-14? Perhaps .223/5.56? Trying to run something less than 1/4" in diameter down your barrel to drill/cut the lead will be pretty difficult/iffy. Can you get to the barrel from the chamber end?

mattd
05-16-2014, 11:01 AM
thanks guys. Def not afraid of heat. I cold-blued this barrel, but you wouldn't know it. I seem to be able to get a deep blue and the secret is HEAT. Anyhow, i tried heating the area and tapping out. Didn't work, but maybe worth another try with two people. Then I read that freezing would be better because lead would contract more then steel. 24 hours later I pulled it out of the freezer and got a lesson about condensation.

I am scared of the drilling tho. It's at least 8" down there from the muzzle. The mini wont let you get to it from the chamber end without removing the barrel. So getting the CoW out would be difficult, and pounding on it from that direction is impossible.

I kroiled the exit path last nite and it has been sitting upside down since. Hopefully that will loosen the CoW and I'll try the heat again.

I'll let you know.

dverna
05-16-2014, 12:11 PM
Use mercury. It is the best answer and it will dissolve lead.

Don Verna

mattd
05-16-2014, 12:26 PM
where do you get mercury from?

prs
05-16-2014, 12:30 PM
Where can one purchase mercury?

prs

joesig
05-16-2014, 12:32 PM
I thought about mercury too but the question is, where do you get it? Time to break open an old thermostat or what? Just don't announce it if you do or the EPA will condemn your house!

The OP already has the brass rod to use as a drill, it's safe on the rifling and it'll work on the CoW too.

NVScouter
05-16-2014, 09:39 PM
I've drilled out a stuck billet and Ruger had to replace my barrel.

The "case capacity " is now larger so load up a couple more 2, 2.5 blanks and fill with toilet paper. It will shoot out but needs more powder for the same PSI

zidave
05-16-2014, 10:58 PM
I recently got a bullet and a wood dowel stuck in my barrel. Wound up having to drill the lil SOB out.

If you go that route, I suggest wrapping electrical tape at certain points on the drill bit to keep the bit centered in the barrel.

fatnhappy
05-16-2014, 11:21 PM
Where can one purchase mercury?

prs

google is your friend. try any science supply store
(http://www.sciencecompany.com/-P16388.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shop&utm_campaign=prod&utm_content=NC-11428&gclid=CJmx3ZmAsr4CFe9r7AodTDYATA)

mattd
05-16-2014, 11:22 PM
The "case capacity " is now larger so load up a couple more 2, 2.5 blanks and fill with toilet paper. It will shoot out but needs more powder for the same PSI

I'm not sure about that. I already have two case gulls of CoW packed in behind the bullet. I pushed a wire up from the chamber end and it only goes about 6 inches past the action, and the bullet is about 6 inches from the muzzle. So that works out to about 6 inches of **** packed into the barrel behind the bullet.

Feeling a little smarter today.....for a guy in this situation anyway. Filed a spade onto the end of my brass rod and spun it in the drill. Some lead came out. I can actually see the bullet down from the muzzle. The spade kept wearing out, but made a good cone shaped hole in the center of the bullet. I cut some thread on the back side of a 1/8 drill bit and screwed it into a cleaning rod. Pushed it agains the bullet, attached some vise grips to the rod and leaned in on the handle slowly turning the vise grips.

It was def cutting into the bullet and after a while I pulled it out and it had CoW on the end of the bit. So I'm threw a short bullet and have a ways to go yet, but getting there. Will keep at it, taking a little bit out at a time and I should get all the way thru.

105396

105397

MaryB
05-17-2014, 12:32 AM
Amazon carries mercury http://www.amazon.com/GalliumSource-LLC-Liquid-Mercury-99-9995%25/dp/B007JMA9V2/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1400301111&sr=1-1&keywords=mercury

mattd
05-17-2014, 12:38 AM
Im past the lead now. A couple inches anyway. My problem now is there is a lip between the drill bit and where it screws in the the rod. I worked it till that lip is sitting on the bullet and won't let me go any further. It's all Cream of Wheat and Dacron now. I've been using a small diameter rod, really a stiff wire, to poke at it and moving slowly. The Kroil probably soaked in and expanded it. Any ideas?

joesig
05-17-2014, 03:29 AM
My bad. Mercury at a reasonable price. I've seen it on eBay too, etc. A hundred bucks a pound is a bit steep! I seem to recall mercury used to be listed on the commodity exchange. It was in 76 pound flasks. I don't recall it being that expensive though. A pound would unstick a hundred or so bullets. I guess if you were going to stick THAT many....


Dang! That much CoW! No wonder the boolit wouldn't move when tapped on.

Gotta keep chipping away. MAYBE if you can pass a 17 caliber brush down the bore?

If you have the means, a deck screw welded to a rod and pull out like they do with muzzle loader.

mikeym1a
05-17-2014, 03:57 AM
This thread has raised a point on which I am ignorant. What does mercury do to lead? Does it dissolve the lead? And if so, how much is needed? I took geology instead of chemistry. And dad would never let me a chemistry set as a kid. mikey

joesig
05-17-2014, 04:26 AM
My non chemistry 4:30AM answer is it basically turns the lead to slush. Seems about 1:1 would work.

Whitespider
05-17-2014, 07:40 AM
I'm not tryin' to poke an open wound mattd...
But what led you believe it was possible to shoot the stuck boolit out with COW in the first place??
I hate to say it, but I'm thinkin' the odds of a bulged barrel are pretty good.

Kim
05-17-2014, 08:03 AM
If I remember rightly from metallurgy courses I took in college, steel gets stronger as it heats until it gets to around 700 degrees, then weakens rapidly. The lead will melt before that temp is reached. I removed 7 bullets stacked up in a S&W 29 barrel by slowly raising the temperature in an oven until they melted and ran out. Go Slow!

44man
05-17-2014, 09:08 AM
Once a boolit sticks it is best to use a brass rod at the start, never try to shoot it out. I can't count those I have removed.
Heat helps and I use a hot air gun that does not go past 400* ( heat gun for covering model airplanes.) to warm stuff, don't heat the boolit or it will expand too. I have never had to heat to remove a boolit though.
To melt lead out is not good on the steel at all. 300* is used to temper steel, enough to change grain structure.
You don't need much heat to expand steel. I had to remove many barrel nuts from DW revolvers and just used a hose and funnel to pour boiling water through the barrel to expand it. Nuts would spin right off.
How does one stack 7 boolits in a barrel without ruining it?
Be aware a brass drill and even aluminum can gouge steel. Best was the small drill through a tube. Use a lot of cutting oil and remove the drill often to clear chips or it will bind up. Lead is a hard thing to drill. Stay as far away from wood dowels as you can.

KAF
05-17-2014, 09:54 AM
CoW is a projectile, like a bullet. Barrel is toast. Bulged big time.

mattd
05-17-2014, 09:59 AM
From 1 grain of unique?

dubber123
05-17-2014, 10:00 AM
I'm betting with the low charge weights, the barrel is just fine. I imagine most of the miniscule gas pressure just ran back past the fired case. I'm sure we will find out soon.

44man
05-17-2014, 10:47 AM
I don't expect pressure damage, just the drilling operation. Nobody knows how many revolvers have been saved from the dreaded SEE event by the gap. But 1 gr will sure pack COW behind a boolit.

Whitespider
05-17-2014, 10:52 AM
From 1 grain of unique?

Do you have any idea how much pressure 1 grain of Unique (or any powder) will create in a closed or sealed container?? A .22 barrel don't provide much room for expansion at all... and the COW made it even less. I'm not sayin' you have a bulged barrel... I'm sayin' a bulged barrel (or ringed chamber) will be no surprise whatsoever.

Tryin' to "shoot" the blockage clear of a barrel is not a good idea... ever.
I'm still wonderin' what led you believe it was possible (or safe) to shoot the stuck boolit out with COW in the first place??

44man
05-17-2014, 10:56 AM
True, a rifle is SEALED so we will see.

BBQJOE
05-17-2014, 11:58 AM
Might as well try shooting some bacon and eggs up there with that cream of wheat. Make it a full breakfast.

(Sorry, couldn't help myself) :rolleyes:

country gent
05-17-2014, 12:12 PM
The cream of wheat is compressed behind the bullet creating a blockage as hard if not harderan tighter than the bullet, the kroil and liquids have probably caused it to swell even tighter. It has to be removed before driving the bullet out . Get a piece of 1/8" cold roll from the hardware store cut a spade point on the end tape up to barrel dia in several places and use this with a tap handle to turn to work thru the cream of wheat. As long as that cream of wheat is there and solid its a block same as a bullet is. Do to hydrolics/compression of the lead bullet and cream of wheat Ill be surprised if there isnt some damage to the barrel. A cup style point on the end of the rod and light taps is much better for removing a stuck bullet. I once saw the otis demonstration ( the cable type bore cleaners) where they work a stuck jacketed bullet out of the bore. They run the tip down Itsa cup point on the end and start tapping with short strokes after a few minutes the bullet is moving and comes out. Supposedly the cup point and light tapping pulls metal up and away instead of mushrooming tighter into bore.

44man
05-17-2014, 02:06 PM
The cream of wheat is compressed behind the bullet creating a blockage as hard if not harderan tighter than the bullet, the kroil and liquids have probably caused it to swell even tighter. It has to be removed before driving the bullet out . Get a piece of 1/8" cold roll from the hardware store cut a spade point on the end tape up to barrel dia in several places and use this with a tap handle to turn to work thru the cream of wheat. As long as that cream of wheat is there and solid its a block same as a bullet is. Do to hydrolics/compression of the lead bullet and cream of wheat Ill be surprised if there isnt some damage to the barrel. A cup style point on the end of the rod and light taps is much better for removing a stuck bullet. I once saw the otis demonstration ( the cable type bore cleaners) where they work a stuck jacketed bullet out of the bore. They run the tip down Itsa cup point on the end and start tapping with short strokes after a few minutes the bullet is moving and comes out. Supposedly the cup point and light tapping pulls metal up and away instead of mushrooming tighter into bore.
Good info, never thought of a cup point but it makes sense.
I have removed many stuck boolits and balls from muzzle loaders too and found screwing in the large screws made balls tighter. Even a skinny screw made them tighter. These CAN be shot out if some powder is put in the nipple hole and the ball set back again. No air space allowed.

country gent
05-17-2014, 02:14 PM
When I seen the otis demonstration at Camp Perry I was impressed they were sticking a jacketed hollow point sierra in the bore and when it came out the lead had been raised a little past the jacket. That in itself would lower tension to remove it. Was now heavy hits just light tapping and it loosened right up.

southpaw
05-17-2014, 05:29 PM
Wouldn't it have been better to leave out the cream of wheat? Maybe even just half a charge of 4895? I know hind is 20/20 and you are probably kicking yourself for not just pushing back right from the begging. Hope all works out for you.

Jerry Jr.

Alstep
05-17-2014, 08:04 PM
I encountered a .22 that someone had lodged a bullet in the bore, and then not realizing the situation, lodged another 8 or 10 more shots before he realized nothing was coming out of the barrel. Took the gun out of the stock, gently heated the barrel with a torch until the lead melted and dripped out. A couple of swipes with a brush and some patches and the bore was as clean and shinny as new. No bulging or damage whatsoever.

Le Loup Solitaire
05-17-2014, 09:02 PM
Mercury will "amalgamate" or soften lead. amalgamate is the term that chemists use. That is why mercury is successfully used to get leading out of a barrel. The barrel must be well corked or closed because if the mercury gets loose you will have to chase it all over the house. It is also bad to get on your skin and poisonous if ingested. You don't need a lot of it to get the job done. Any lead will float on the mercury and can be skimmed off and tossed. The mercury can be saved for future use. LS

NVScouter
05-17-2014, 09:35 PM
I use TP since it burns up and doesn't add to the obstruction. 1g of Unique even in a .22 bore +6" of barrel won't do anything.

If you are going to work at cat sneeze loads you really need to know what your doing.

Down South
05-18-2014, 10:12 AM
On Edit: Sorry, posted wrong info for your situation.

bedbugbilly
05-18-2014, 01:50 PM
Kim . . . not poking . . . I'm just curious. How does one get "7" slugs stacked up on top of each other without knowing that there is something wrong?

As far as using a "screw" to remove a squib and the reference to using one in muzzle-loading rifles . . . I'm not saying it wouldn't work . . . but pulling a ball from a muzzle-loader is a "different animal" usually. The majority of the time, you are dealing with a "patched round ball". The purpose of the patch is to take up the area of the grooves and form a good seal. It is easy if you aren't paying attention to what you are doing to "dry ball" a ML - i.e. forget to put the powder charge in. In those cases, a screw is put on the ramrod and usually, not always, it's fairly easy to pull the ball as the patch is lubed in some manner. A squib that is forced into the rifling is going to have a lot more resistance due to the surface area.

On a case such as this one . . . I would think that the best method would be to drill as suggested. The last thing a person wants to do is to use a screw (as in a ML) and either have it pull off of the rod and be stuck in the lead, or have the manner in which it is attached to the rod fail - leaving the screw stuck in the lead. With a hardened screw stuck in it, you aren't going to drill it out and the only thing you could do is remove the barrel and attack it from the breech if possible and in the long run, probably cause some damage to the bore.

I agree with Whitespider . . . I don't think it is ever a good idea to try and "blow" a squib out. There are too many things that can go wrong and to add something to the cartridge to act as a projectile is only asking for trouble (cream of wheat, etc.). If a person get's a squib - step back for a while and think about the best method to get it out. It sometimes helps to give yourself some time and get your thoughts together before trying something that may cause further problems.

For the OP . . . it's unfortunate that this happened but let's face it, everyone reading this thread is learning a lot. We all have done things we later wished we hadn't - that's how we learn. Hopefully you'll get everything out and your barrel will be O.K. Sounds like you are on the right track - just take your time and don't rush. One way or another, you'll get the job done and I'm sure everyone of us wish you the best of luck. I have never had a squib in a rifle but I have in a revolver. I prefer lighter loads and that's an even better reason to make sure you are paying attention to what is going on when shooting. Fortunately on mine, I instantly knew something was wrong as all I got was a "pfffft" - lack of powder which was my error and I was surprised just how far a primer could push a 160 gr. WC into a barrel.

Good luck to you and let us know how it's going please - as I said, we all are learning from this thread.

NVScouter
05-19-2014, 12:43 PM
I'd work on the cream of wheat first. Use a torch and warm it up to charcoal and blow it out. Or mineral oil soak/KROIL/ATF.

dondiego
05-19-2014, 01:14 PM
Add boiling water and a little salt to the cream of wheat. Should be done in 3 minutes or so.

44man
05-19-2014, 01:34 PM
I so hate to heat a gun!

mattd
05-19-2014, 01:54 PM
I've been working at it. Like i said, hand drilled thru the lead and got out some CoW. but the lead was keeping me from getting the bit all the way to the CoW. so i took my 3/16 rod and pushed the lead back against the next layer of CoW. that also squished the lead back down and i re-drilled thru it, removing more lead. and got to more CoW. probably be back and forth with this process until the lead is all gone, or the CoW is. One thing that is helpful is taping the muzzle upside down against a piece of wood to get all the loose stuff out.

I am hesitant about doing a kroil soak. thought it might expand and be tougher to get out, or maybe the expansion would make it easier. its an unknown either way and what i'm doing now is working, slowly but surely.


If a person get's a squib - step back for a while and think about the best method to get it out. It sometimes helps to give yourself some time and get your thoughts together before trying something that may cause further problems.



this is the ticket here. i didnt have anything that would fit to knock it out at the time and it was too late to go to the store and i wanted to keep at what i was doing.

Mk42gunner
05-20-2014, 12:06 AM
It sounds like what you are doing now is working, I wouldn't change methods until it no longer works. I mean you already have the lead moveable, keep working at it and eventually enough of the Cream of Wheat will come out so you can push the remainder of the boolit clear of the bore.

Then a good cleaning and inspection and you should be back in business.

A good lesson for everyone is to make haste slowly when dealing with bore obstructions, no matter what caused them.

Robert

NavyVet1959
05-20-2014, 12:38 AM
I would probably just put about 6 gr of Red Dot in an empty cartridge and maybe cap it with a bit of wax and then shoot it. There is no way I would ever use Cream of Wheat -- that's not a southern thing anyway. If *we* were doing it, we would use grits.

Pinsnscrews
05-20-2014, 02:01 AM
Keep in mind, CoW was an alternative for making "Paste and Glue".

In this case, the CoW blocked the barrel, preventing the bullet to return back to the breech. Probably had a really good pound cast of your barrel at that point too ;-)

If it had only been the bullet, and you did not have a rod long enough, putting a thick oil above the bullet, then using the as close to correct diameter rod as possible. Just don't fill the oil above the Gas Port, and you might want to put a rag around the muzzle and rod. What you are doing is creating a hydraulic cylinder using the oil as the fluid, the stuck bullet as the base, and your rod as the driven shaft. When you hit it sharply, some oil is going to be pushed down around the bullet, and some is going to squirt up around the rod, but Most of the energy is going to transfer from the rod to the bullet. You can also do it with water, but water is not as slick as oil ;-)

merlin101
05-20-2014, 04:00 AM
Could you take a piece of brass brazing rod and flatten one end with a hammer and then use that a 'shovel' to attack the cream of wheat? It sounds like once thats cleared out your halfway home.

mattd
05-21-2014, 10:42 PM
It's out! Spent a couple hours working at it yesterday. The key was a mix of everyone's ideas.....a spade on the end of the brass rod created a centered hole on the nose of the bullet, the drill bit on the end of an AL cleaning rod and hand turned got thru the lead. The remaining ring of lead centered the drill as it worked thru the CoW.

So it was turning the hand drill to scrape of the top layer of CoW, take the barrel out of the vise and dump it, and start over. Over and over again. Took awhile, but after a chore boy cleaning it doesn't look any worse for the wear. A patch has the same resistance throughout so hopefully no bulging. We'll see how she shoots, but the loads I had worked up were with varget, and I'm bout out of that.

DrCaveman
05-22-2014, 03:14 AM
Congrats! Glad that worked out, and ill take note of the process

Ive used imr 4064 in replacement of varget. Not same but close, of course charge weights are not interchangable

Good save. Let us know how it shoots!

sthwestvictoria
05-22-2014, 05:41 AM
This was from our second hand firearm website in Australia:
105631