Feral goats with Cast.

[ejm]

Hi folks, first time cast boolit hunter. Went for a walk yesterday and popped a few goats. Used C390-200R Lee ACWW over 22 grs
of 2400. Shots were close, 30-80 yards and all 4 billy's were double lung shot. They all showed little reaction on being hit, and all
covered 20-50 yards before collapsing. So the question is, do I change my point of aim and bust shoulders or change load, Flat Point or hollow point boolit and or soften my alloy to 50/50wwpb. I know I could just shoot em all in the head at these ranges but i'm wanting to work up something to use on Red stag next year and I've got hundreds of feral goats to develop loads and practice on. Eric.

[ejm]

104629104628104627

[ejm]

104629104628104627

http://castboohttp://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=104627&d=1399886077lits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=104628&d=1399886357

Only little beasties but they can soak up lead if you don't hit em right. Don't think that's the problem here but I would like to try and increase energy transfer/boolit performance more so the guy holding the 17 hmr in the third photo ( my brother ) can be convinced to give cast a try as well. Yesterday he thrashed me with 8 one shot kills with that lil 17 hummer. All straight thru the eyeball at ranges up to 120 yards. The game is on. Eric.

[chuckbuster]

I shoot to break shoulders with cast. They seem to drop where they stand, bleed out quick due to getting front of the lungs and or the arteries for the heart/lungs. Minimal meat loss, eat right up to the hole.
Just my experience.
Kevin

[richhodg66]

Hi folks, first time cast boolit hunter. Went for a walk yesterday and popped a few goats. Used C390-200R Lee ACWW over 22 grs
of 2400. Shots were close, 30-80 yards and all 4 billy's were double lung shot. They all showed little reaction on being hit, and all
covered 20-50 yards before collapsing. So the question is, do I change my point of aim and bust shoulders or change load, Flat Point or hollow point boolit and or soften my alloy to 50/50wwpb. I know I could just shoot em all in the head at these ranges but i'm wanting to work up something to use on Red stag next year and I've got hundreds of feral goats to develop loads and practice on. Eric.

What cartridge was this load in? Sounds like a .30-06 or similar???

Switching to a flat nose type of bullet should help. The Lyman 311041 or Ranchdog bullets seem to transfer energy well, at least in the few cases I've used them in so far they did.

I sure would like to see New Zealand someday.

[ejm]

308 win. in Howa 1500. Had Lyman 311041, 429421, and 225438 on order with LGS for nearly 12 months now with no joy, so probably try CBE out of Aussie.
You're welcome visit anytime. I'll start carrying a better camera and see if we can tempt you with some Hunting and Fishing shots. Might even throw in some boring old scenery. Eric

[HABCAN]

Welcome ejm!! Great pics! Just on the face of it I'd recommend the Lyman 311041 cast 50/50. Maybe you could arrange for a member here to buy you that mold and ship it? Some of these great guys have done such for me here in Canada where 'special orders' just fade into nothing too.

[MT Gianni]

If you can line things up I try to penetrate the lungs and break the far shoulder. I also experimented with a flat nose by using a 6.5 remington trim die, running the loaded cartridge in it and filing the nose flat. Groups suffered at 100 yards but for the close ranges you have on goats it is worth a try.

[sixshot]

That #311041 is a great game bullet in the 308, maybe experiment with different alloys a bit to find the sweet spot but it will work just fine. I've whacked several turkeys with that bullet but used a reduced load. There's an old goat just down the road a bit from us that I'd really like to shoot but her husband might thank me so I won't!

Dick

[MBTcustom]

Try cutting your WW alloy 50/50 with pure lead.
I don't know how fast you are running with that combo, (never tried 308 with 2400) but if you can put it at 1800-1950 you'll have a smacker.
Also, If you are using a RN boolit (again, never heard of the boolit you mention?) then take a file to your hunting loads and put a flat nose on those boolits.
If that doesn't anchor 'em, then goats are tougher than I give them credit for.

[NVScouter]

Red Stag are almost the size of an American Elk so if your are getting ANY expansion on goats you should be getting plenty on a stag. Ever try and line two up for a double? That would let you see how it would act on a stag I'd think.

You collecting the meat or just removing an invasive species?

[NVScouter]

/
If that doesn't anchor 'em, then goats are tougher than I give them credit for.

I know very little about goats my sole experience was I was given one. It was a 4-6 year old billy that I "thought" would make a great weed eater. He was a dwarf and came with a girlfriend. I just wanted them to eat and live out thier lives in peace. He was a first rate SOB and she was neurotic to say the least. He almost killed my parents Lab with a headbutt and chased everything.

Those two were solid trouble and one day I'd fended him off two times too many. He went after the wheelbarrow then me. He got a 45colt 340g cast @1300fps angled down through both lungs. Bugger jumped over about 4' and squared up on me again leaking like a sive lung hanging out of the hole. I got a good kick in on him trying to ram me before getting shot #2 into him.

For a 40lbs goat I was amazed at his toughness! I also believe all the old stubborn goat anicdotes I've heard too. I've had cows, sheep, chickens, ducks, horses, mules, rabbits, dogs, turkeys, rats, snakes, and lizzards. Goats and roosters are the two most dangerous so far in my opinion.

[Hickok]

Like some of the guys suggested, I always try to bust up the shoulders when using cast loads in handgun or rifle. Goodsteel has good advice with filing a flat tip on your hunting boolit, as you only need a few of them.

Hitting the shoulder bones and muscle with a good flat meplat really seems to "activate" a boolit, causing some nasty damage.

But in my hunting experiences with deer, a high velocity soft point jacketed load through the lungs, the animal reacts the same as you experienced, a short run from 20 to 60 yards and then down.

Welcome to the forum, and good hunting!

[ejm]

Thanks Guys, I will Get the file out and modify a few of these loads to try at the range this morning. Hopefully they will still group.
Tim, I should have checked for typo's that should be C309=200R. I guess its a 311299 copy. That load has been running 1870fps over my pro chrono so it's in the ballpark. I have no problem obtaining most powders except the accurate brand. Any suggested Loads appreciated. At present I have Win 231, 296, 680,748,760, IMR SR 4579,4227, 3031, H 4895, H 4831, H4350, and most of the ADI range. LGS is carrying good stocks of Reloader 7, 15, 17 and 22. Don't seem to have the powder troubles you guys have. Probably because we can only store a max of 15 kg of powder before we have to start dealing with hazard-goods / storage issues. That and the NZ 70 $ a pound price tag slows the hoarders down somewhat. Eric

[JeffinNZ]

A wee cup in the nose of that bullet will make a world of difference too if you can rig up sometime to drill them.

[ejm]

Thanks Jeff, I was just looking at my drill press and thinking the same thing. Plenty of things to play with before I put on some purple pants and scare all those goats to death. I'd drag the 416 rigby outta the safe and use that on em before inflicting that sort of pain on the poor little critters. Ha Ha. Eric.

[MBTcustom]

Thanks Guys, I will Get the file out and modify a few of these loads to try at the range this morning. Hopefully they will still group.
Tim, I should have checked for typo's that should be C309=200R. I guess its a 311299 copy. That load has been running 1870fps over my pro chrono so it's in the ballpark. I have no problem obtaining most powders except the accurate brand. Any suggested Loads appreciated. At present I have Win 231, 296, 680,748,760, IMR SR 4579,4227, 3031, H 4895, H 4831, H4350, and most of the ADI range. LGS is carrying good stocks of Reloader 7, 15, 17 and 22. Don't seem to have the powder troubles you guys have. Probably because we can only store a max of 15 kg of powder before we have to start dealing with hazard-goods / storage issues. That and the NZ 70 $ a pound price tag slows the hoarders down somewhat. Eric

I wish I could give you some tried and true loads, but I'm still learning this caliber myself. I can say that I am about to be trying some 4895, 3031, and 748. I have really high hopes for 4895, but that doesn't mean much till I work it out on paper.

[Von Gruff]

I found that the goats were dropping as quick with a cast 160gn 7mm bullet as they were with a C&C, mind you I was running the cast at 2400fps, and they were lung shot. I am away this weekend and will try a light 6.5 cast if I get the oportunity

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

we shoot deer with 1oz 12ga slugs the double lung shot is good as they don't go real far but like your experience up to about 100 yards , you loose no meat and it is a nice big kill zone , some go down right there but some will even go 150 yards leaving a generous trail of blood they just don't know they are dead yet , if you move forward and take the shoulders they do go down better , a flat bullet helps energy transfer but even the 72cal hole doesn't make the a double lung shot a DRT (dead right there) neck shots don't kill them instantly nothing really does so perhaps DRT should be Down Right There, but they do go down right now and bleed out in a minute or 3 and there isn't much meat in the neck

with anything central nerviness is the only way to insure down right there but lungs and heat will bleed fast about 1-3 minutes but they can cover a great deal of distance in that minute or 3 but bone crushing like the shoulders is a good second to a central nerviness hit but you loose more meat and a flat or expanding boolit does a better job of creating the shock to get to the CNS central nerviness system without an actual hit of it

[Leslie Sapp]

Try cutting your WW alloy 50/50 with pure lead.

+1
I went to the 50/50 mix in the .35 Remington after trying unadulterated ACWW.

[sthwestvictoria]

Great work and welcome to the forum. I am sure that bullet will work. If you are looking more molds then CBE in australia are excellent. If you want Lee molds or dies then Madcommando or Titan reloading are both excellent and will ship fast and cheap to our side of the world.

Nice shooting by your brother with the little 17 HMR ! Not my first thought for a goat rifle but obviously works if you know the rifle!

[ejm]

Ok, Just got back from the range this morning after playing with the 50/50 wwpb version of my loads from last week. Amazed that the change in alloy affected group sizes as much as they did. The same 22 grs /2400 load went from 1.5 inch 10 shot groups to 3.5 inch 10 shot groups @ 100 yards. Groups tightened up when I dropped down to 19 grs but only got 1720-1750 fps. Its lucky for me that I only have to travel 1/2 a mile to the range 'cause i've had 6 visits in the last 2 days. 30 powder/charge combinations later, this mornings visit had me satisfied with SR 4759 @ 23.6 grs for 1950-60 fps. I got best group so far with this, 1.25 inch @ 100 yards, but I cheated and only did a five shotter. Anyways, should be good enough to take for a walk in the weekend for another test on goats.
Sthwestvic. That Weihrauch .17hmr was actually taken to deal to some turkey's and hare's but the goats were stupid enough to stand there looking at us so whats a bloke supposed to do.
P.S. Just had a mate come for a coffee and check out my casting's, and he mentions that his uncle used to split his cast boolit noses with a strip of tin foil in the mold. Would that work? Anyone heard of or had any experience with this.
Eric

[CHeatermk3]

I wonder, how would dropping a pure lead ball(like maybe a #4 buck) into the mould before pouring straight WW to finish the casting-if you'd have better groups using your original load?

I like 4759 too for cast loads in my Mosin but haven't done any hunting with it yet.

Sounds like you got it solved anyway though.

Congratulations on the target-rich environment!

[Leslie Sapp]

before I put on some purple pants
I don't know about the tin foil, but I believe the purple pants to be an unethical way of taking game, even though it would be quick! Far too cruel and unusual, though:p.

[DLCTEX]

I don't see a problem with the boolits performance if the goats only ran as far as 80 yards. I'd had deer and other critters go farther than that using expanding jacketed bullets when double lunged. If they only ran that far when shot with an arrow it would be great results. Shoot the shoulders and see what the boolit does. It will expand there in all probability.

[Djones]

Try heat treating. After heat treating set boolit in water past the last driving band and then take a torch to the nose of your boolit until you see discoloration. This will give you a hard bearing surface and soft nose. I get great expansion at lower velocity (1600 FPS) with 50/50 heat treated and then nose torched.

[MT Gianni]

Somewhere I have a copy of an old American Rifleman around 1967. A letter to the comments section mentions splitting the nose by inserting check tear offs, which I think is the paper left behind in the book from a hard commercial check. He mentioned the need to have no one in front of you as occasionally they blew apart at the muzzle. That was enough to put me off from trying it as who knows if you might get more than one shot. There is also the safety aspect of another shooter.

[ejm]

[QUOTE=NVScouter;2775984]Red Stag are almost the size of an American Elk so if your are getting ANY expansion on goats you should be getting plenty on a stag. Ever try and line two up for a double?

Got to try this yesterday. Two goats lined up perfectly and I punched a flat nosed 170 gr lee through the front shoulders of both of them at 70 yards. Result, bang flop two dead goats with one shot. Still haven't managed to recover a single boolit out of the 74 goats we have shot in the last three weeks, so I haven't got a clue what bullet expansion is like but we have also used a 06 with 180gr powerpoint jacketed as a control these last couple of trips and have not noticed much difference. The most dramatic results and quickest kills so far have been 55 gr v max's at 3600 fps mv from a 22-250. My next trial will be with some 50/50 311041 lymans that I have been working up at the range lately with 44.5 grs of H4350. This load is both faster and softer than I have tried and its not proving to be that accurate, only been able to get 3 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yds so far, but this should be adequate for test purposes on game. Results to follow. Eric.

[jsizemore]

I was harvesting goats on a cash and carry basis from the farm. The best put them on the ground right there was with my 25-06 shooting a Sierra 75gr HP in the head out to 200 yards. Pressurized the head enough to bulge the eyes and break the skull into pieces. I went through better then 10 boxes of bullets over a 15 year period with nary a hitch in bullet performance.

[jhalcott]

I have used tin foil and paper to split the nose of 45-70 bullets. It does work quite well, acting like a pair of scissors going thru a deer. Only had one or 2 bullets come apart, but they hit meat before breaking up. Only split the "nose" portion of the bullet! Be carefull to get the foil even across the mold. Another method is to make the bullets in two stages. First drop in a portion of pure lead for the nose, then a harder alloy for the base. Do a search for BRUCE B'S softpoint bullets. I do the same except I do not reheat the mold. I am lazy and do not NEED pretty bullets. Only a few are needed for MOST hunting seasons and the softpoints fly as well as the single alloy types.

[45 2.1]

Try this boolit:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?229973-MiHec-308-Hunting-Boolit-2-or-4-Cavity-Brass-Cramer-Rerun

on top of about 23 gr. of SR4759 in your 308. Should be lights out on your feral goats.

[NVScouter]

Fantastic! I think your load is spot on for Stag!


[QUOTE=NVScouter;2775984]Red Stag are almost the size of an American Elk so if your are getting ANY expansion on goats you should be getting plenty on a stag. Ever try and line two up for a double?

Got to try this yesterday. Two goats lined up perfectly and I punched a flat nosed 170 gr lee through the front shoulders of both of them at 70 yards. Result, bang flop two dead goats with one shot. Still haven't managed to recover a single boolit out of the 74 goats we have shot in the last three weeks, so I haven't got a clue what bullet expansion is like but we have also used a 06 with 180gr powerpoint jacketed as a control these last couple of trips and have not noticed much difference. The most dramatic results and quickest kills so far have been 55 gr v max's at 3600 fps mv from a 22-250. My next trial will be with some 50/50 311041 (tel:50/50 311041) lymans that I have been working up at the range lately with 44.5 grs of H4350. This load is both faster and softer than I have tried and its not proving to be that accurate, only been able to get 3 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yds so far, but this should be adequate for test purposes on game. Results to follow. Eric.

[pls1911]

Crush the shoulder... they will fall.
It works every time on tough old hogs, and my bullets do NOT expand.

[white eagle]

if you have a gas checked boolit you can go with a softer alloy
also if you can get a Forrester hp maker it may be the use of a hp will help your expansion a bit
seems as though your quarry is on the smallish side and you alloy a bit hard expansion would definitely hep out

[Hickok]

Crush the shoulder... they will fall.
It works every time on tough old hogs, and my bullets do NOT expand.My method also.:drinks:

[JeffinNZ]

Round balls work well on goats. I took his particularly smell critter with my .40cal flintlock.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Shooting%20stuff/IHgoat2.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/JeffinNZ/media/Shooting%20stuff/IHgoat2.jpg.html)

[bruce drake]

pure lead Jeff? And I please don't tell me you reuse goat sacks like you do wallaby sacks...

[JeffinNZ]

pure lead Jeff? And I please don't tell me you reuse goat sacks like you do wallaby sacks...

'Yes' to the first question and 'of course' to the second. :-P

[bruce drake]

gack! horns for a powder flask and its pelt for a half-cape for the rainy season?

Bruce

[woodbutcher]

:shock: Might not be exactly"According to Hoyle"BUT here is something that worked pretty good for me and a few other folks back in the day.
We would drop a steel BB in the nose of the mold before pouring.When the BB hit any resistance,it would start to penetrate the body of the boolit,then expansion would really start.This was using just ww.Air cooled.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[ejm]

So many things to try. This weekend its going to be pure lead 170gr lee flatpoint at subsonic speeds. Tried the suppressor last week and even with the sonic crack I got many more shots on mobs of goats before they figured something wasn't right and scattered. Hopefully can recover the odd boolit to see if pure lead deforms at subsonic speeds. All good fun trying these things anyway Eric.

[Tom_in_AZ]

Nice shooting and nice goats!

[rosst]

look forward to hearing about the results with the pure lead boolits at sub speed.

i did use the 311284 50/50 forster hollowpointed in the past at sub speed, results were eratic, at anything past 50 yards it got worse . . . now i use 31141 and the RCBS FP 185grn boolit, both good accurate/killers in my suppressed 30/30 and .308

[UBER7MM]

That's one way of separating the sheep from the goats......

[smlekid]

I have been trying to get an accurate cast load for my sporterised 303 I've tried a number of different moulds all in the .316" region but unfortunately my new Indian barrel slugs at 317" I ordered a mould from accurate moulds No 31-185J made to .317" it shoots very well with 17grs of 2400 (around 1650fps from memory it is in my notes) that boolit is one flatnose sucker I think it should work very well on goats I use the rifle for culling feral goats with the state of jacketed bullets here in Oz at the moment cast really is the only way to go
I plan on trying some H4895 and Varget to get an accurate load around the 1800-1900fps mark I use a 50/50 Pb WW alloy haven't had the opportunity to try them on goats yet