Pierced primers

[Tatume]

In the past week I’ve started using a new batch of Winchester LRM primers with loads I had previously loaded with standard primers. Both sets of cartridges appear to produce low pressure, and velocities are in line with the expected pressure. Velocities and pressures with these loads are so low that I felt confident I could substitute magnum primers with no ill effects.

Both sets use IMR 7383. One is 45-70 at 1400 fps with a 350 grain cast LBT LFNGC bullet. Out of 100 shots fired, two primers were pierced on the circumference. The other is 358 Winchester using RCBS 35-200-FN at 1800 fps, and two primers out of 50 show the circumferential piercing. No other pressure signs are displayed, and primers are nicely rounded along the circumference. Both loads leave unburned powder behind, in abundance in the 45-70, but less so in the 358 Winchester. This last observation (on the 358) is suspicious.

My intent is to reduce both loads slightly and try again. My question is: could this be a bad batch of primers? If I continue to experience pierced primers with reduced loads, I may have to contact Winchester. Have any of your experienced trouble with recently manufactured Winchester LRM primers?

[NSB]

I can't answer your question with a high level of expertise. However, I can tell you that I've never pierced a primer once in 45 years of loading and I almost exclusively use magnum primers. I never load anything hot and usually stay on the low end of things. I shoot a lot of 45-70 at the velocities you come up with and I've never had a problem. I will add though, I have never used the powder you're using so that may be a big factor in your problem.

[gray wolf]

Hold on a Second, I need to ask, you say the piercing was on the circumference of the primer.

two primers were pierced on the circumference.
Do you mean on the edge of the cup at the outer edge ? or the outer edge of the firing pin strike ?
If on the outer edge of the cup ( away from the hole from the firing pin made it may be a bad primer. Reason would be it's not involved with the pin strike.
Just asking for clarification.

[MarkP]

Tatume, Did your primers have small holes on the radius of the primer cup? Or little black dots that resemble fly poop along the radius and some soot on the case head?
I had this happen on a few rounds using WLR primers from a newer stock (Nov 2012) they were non plated brass cups sold in the blue boxes. The older primers in the white boxes were plated. It happened in 2 different cartridges that were relatively low pressure loads while shooting over a chronograph. No abnormal velocities recorded. I will look to find the cartridges and post some pictures of them and look for the lot numbers on primer boxes.

[243winxb]

A bad batch of primers. Photos & lot # of Win. Primers. http://s338.photobucket.com/user/joe1944usa/library/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/Primer%20Gas%20Leak http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/Primer%20Gas%20Leak/WLR.jpg

[Tatume]

Hold on a Second, I need to ask, you say the piercing was on the circumference of the primer. Do you mean on the edge of the cup at the outer edge, or the outer edge of the firing pin strike? If on the outer edge of the cup ( away from the hole from the firing pin made it may be a bad primer. Reason would be it's not involved with the pin strike. Just asking for clarification.

Yes, I mean on the circumference of the primer, and the fault is not associated with the firing pin strike. The photos posted by 243winxb are the faults I'm seeing. As I said, I'm very surprised, because I considered both to be low pressure loads.

These cases have been used several times with standard LR primers and no faults have been observed. Also, the primer pockets are still good and tight.

It sounds like I may need to contact Winchester. Have they ever made good on a bad batch of primers?

[JWFilips]

I had just this same experience about a month ago. I filed a notice to Winchester on their website & they called me to discuss & are sending packaging to send them back for testing My batch number was DKL 802G LRPs
Scarred up may bolt face !

I would go to Winchesters website & contact them also

[cbrick]

I've never experienced that in decades of reloading but I would be very interested in hearing what Winchester has to say should you contact them.

Rick

[Tatume]

I've never experienced that in decades of reloading but I would be very interested in hearing what Winchester has to say should you contact them. Rick

Just moments ago I contacted them electronically. I'll post the response and developments.

Thanks, Tom

[cbrick]

Just moments ago I contacted them electronically. I'll post the response and developments. Thanks, Tom

Thanks, appreciate it.

Rick

[Tatume]

I had just this same experience about a month ago. I filed a notice to Winchester on their website & they called me to discuss & are sending packaging to send them back for testing My batch number was DKL 802G LRPs
Scarred up my bolt face !

Did the scarring cause any functional problems?

Thanks, Tom

[243winxb]

Defects happens in all brands of primers. Mine were Rem 9 1/2 primers about 40 years ago. Later i loaded the wrong Federal primers in a 223 Rem. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/Federa200RiflePrimers.jpg Just like the Rem 6 1/2 are not for 223 Rem.

[JWFilips]

Did the scarring cause any functional problems?

Thanks, Tom

No but it looked like heck ......I polished the face of a bolt lightly but there still is some cut areas you can see.

Tom, What is the lot number of your primers? Mine was DKL 802G It happened in "once shot" 8mm Mauser Fed & Winchester Brass and also in 30-06 ( resized to 8MM Mauser) Remington & Winchester brass Also on 30-30 Rem Brass ( once shot)

They called me back & told me on the phone that they haven't heard of any problems from anyone else but were concerned, & were sending special packaging for their return for inspection. If you don't hear back PM me & I will give you the agents Phone number handling my case.
Jim

[Tatume]

The lot number is DGL 201G. I take it you don't have a resolution yet. How many primers did you send back to them?

[JWFilips]

I was lucky in the fact that I had only bought 300 from my LGS But before I used those I went back 2 weeks later and both a brick of 1000 Good thing they were not the same lot ( not even close) When I stared loading I used the 300 batch first and had problems with the first 200 I have an unopened box of 100 let I'm sending back once I get their packaging.
I have not had any problems so far with the new batch. He are two photos
104635
104636

[44man]

It happened with a lot of Fed primers some time ago. They just sent me new primers. The problem was traced to corrosion at the bend of the cups. They were SR primers. Cut nice circles on the bolt face.

[NSB]

A better terminology for this defect might be "ruptured primers" rather than "pierced". None of them were pierced.

[Eutectic]

It happened with a lot of Fed primers some time ago. They just sent me new primers. The problem was traced to corrosion at the bend of the cups. They were SR primers. Cut nice circles on the bolt face.

What is described is a metallurgical problem..... not a pressure problem..... Like 44man, I've seen it in Federal primers .... some 10,000 of them being in question!

Federal diagnosed the condition as 'Stress Corrosion Cracking'. They said the primers were exposed to other 'chemicals' in storage that caused this... They didn't offer what the chemicals might be....Federal replaced them however. I moved before this discovery happened; I wish I knew the culprit! The primers were OK before the move.

Funny though..... ALL other brands had no problem.....

Eutectic

[Tatume]

A better terminology for this defect might be "ruptured primers" rather than "pierced". None of them were pierced.

All of the primers were pierced (synonymous with "perforated"). "Rupture" implies a more widespread failure.

[gray wolf]

It happened with a lot of Fed primers some time ago. They just sent me new primers. The problem was traced to corrosion at the bend of the cups. They were SR primers. Cut nice circles on the bolt face.

I had this happen to me and it destroyed the bolt face on a new Mdl. 70 Win. that was a gift to me, the primers were gotten from the same gun store the rifle was bought from, the owner said he had taken the primers in as a trade ?????
They looked bran spanking new. Federal said the primers were ( get this ) 25 years old and should never been sold to me.

The gun store owner replaced the two week old rifle and sent the old one back to Win. He said he had no way of knowing the primers were bad, I could understand that, I guess.
Federal also told me the primers had to have been stored near something corrosive as in Ammonia.
They sent me new primers.

[DR Owl Creek]

It happened to me in Oct, 2011 with Winchester WLRM primers (Lot #CML 141 G) I bought after the shortage of 2009 - 2010. I was working up a practice load for my 270 WSM with Sierra 135 gr MKs and IMR-4350 powder, trying to duplicate the trajectory of a hunting load I'd worked up with Barnes' TTSXs.

The Hodgon manual listed a starting load of 58.0 gr, and a max load of 62.5 gr with Winchester brass and WLRM primers. The Sierra manual listed a starting load of 58.7 gr, and a max load of 62.7 gr with Winchester brass and WLRM primers.

I was using Sierra 135 gr MKs (weight sorted to .1 gr), Winchester brass (weight sorted to .5 gr), and measuring the powder on a digital powder dispenser to the exact amount. I started at 58.5 gr. On the second group at 59.5 gr, two WLRM primers burned through just like in the photos in post # 6, burning divots in the bolt face on my Browning A-Bolt. I was pissed!

Some of the ole bench rest boys who were shooting at the range that day said the same thing had happened to them using WLRs, and they stopped using them because of that. They also said all Winchester was willing to do was replace the primers with another box just like the other box.

After tearing down the unfired rounds with the WLRMs, I redid the load using CCI No. 250 LRMs and was able to run up to the max load without a problem. The load I finally settled on was pretty close to Sierra's recommended accuracy load.

Dave

[Eutectic]

All of the primers were pierced (synonymous with "perforated"). "Rupture" implies a more widespread failure.

Tatume,

Just because a word has a certain definition in a 'dictionary of the English language' does not mean it is the best choice to use to describe your problem to a large group...... I too, was wondering what you were talking about until I read enough to understand what you meant to say!

Our common interests here are on a complex subject. Being such, we should talk in a language of definitions that fit (in this case) the cartridge primer. Almost without exception a "pierced primer" is firing pin related... (can be mechanical or pressure related) So you confuse your audience with your choice of words.

Why not say you had a 'split' or 'crack' in the radius of the primer cup? your audience would then know of what you speak.

Don't talk French to a bunch of American reloaders even if Webster says you can!

Eutectic

[Tatume]

The failure was not a split or a crack. The failure was a piercing, and the location was clearly stated. There was no ambiguity.

[madsenshooter]

How about "leaking". Lot of fellows have had similar problems with the WLR and WLRM primers on other boards. It's been happening awhile, over a year I know of as I passed on the answer to a friend prior to Camp Perry last year.

[44man]

What is described is a metallurgical problem..... not a pressure problem..... Like 44man, I've seen it in Federal primers .... some 10,000 of them being in question!

Federal diagnosed the condition as 'Stress Corrosion Cracking'. They said the primers were exposed to other 'chemicals' in storage that caused this... They didn't offer what the chemicals might be....Federal replaced them however. I moved before this discovery happened; I wish I knew the culprit! The primers were OK before the move.

Funny though..... ALL other brands had no problem.....

Eutectic
This is correct. Thank you for posting that.

[Tatume]

When I was a small child and developing a spoken vocabulary I learned from my mother that “material” was the cloth from which articles of clothing were made. Later when I learned to read I discovered that the word has a much more general meaning. Mother then explained to me that among seamstresses the word had a specialized meaning, which was my introduction to the concept of jargon. From then until now I have remained uncomfortable with jargon. While it serves as an easy and sometimes lazy mode of communication among insiders, it also excludes outsiders from understanding. Having expressed my discomfort, I will now, with misgiving, yield on the usage of “pierce.”

[EDG]

Pierce implies the use of a sharp object - make (a hole) with a sharp instrument.

Until the actual cause of the failure is know you may not know the exact word to use.

Most likely the material failed at a grain boundary and not corrosion.

If you want to know more about corrosion take a look at "Corrosion Engineering" by Mars G. Fontana.
Mr. Fontana was one of the foremost authorities on corrosion on the planet.

[44man]

Took me a while too until I seen pictures. I thought a firing pin had poked a hole.
It is always a problem explaining stuff so I forgive the OP.
Then EDG said about "grain boundaries" that might have cracked so it might fit too. But the fed was traced to corrosion. Both bad anyway.

[BeeMan]

I had a few primers leak at the radius as shown in pictures on posts 6 and 16. It was many years ago using Remington 6 1/2 primers in a 223. I was loading plinking loads and did not see a need to use 7 1/2 primers since they were labeled 'Benchrest' at the time.

Remington jumped on my having used them for 223 and said it was mis-application. These were not even close to top end loads but to them it made no difference. The leaking gas etched the bolt face in 2 of the 3 rounds that leaked when fired. A few more primers had tiny black specs at the radius when examined under magnification. I switched to Remington 7 1/2 and also tried various other makes with no issues.

It is interesting that they may have actually been defective based on the very specific leak location. I still have that brick and may have to take a closer look when I get a round 'tuit. The rifle was traded away long ago.

[Eutectic]

I've handloaded some 65 years now. I watched my father before that and was finally assigned the job of priming the cases for him after a while under his direct supervision (I do mean direct) . It took me a little bit to meet his high standards; those standards have never left me......

Primers then were round domed in Winchester, Western, and Federal. (Nice smooth curves.) Remington and Peters had gone to the current cup shape configuration, although the radius seemed less. Earlier Remington's were still around with what I'll call a 'radiused dome'..I even saw my Dad's FA 70 primers (corrosive) which had this radiused dome.

I'm pretty convinced these earlier primers had a final anneal of the cup after being formed. I'm pretty sure they don't now....... WHY?

I'm not positive, but I think current engineering leaves the radiused corner harder. I believe it's because of 'flat primer paranoia'..... You see, those older softer primers flattened easier both because of being softer and cup shape Cratering started sooner too. I think most of us know that other things can flatten a primer cup besides high pressure. But it's the universal sign for the green horn.

EDG's theory could show up in the harder cup radius I describe. But let's look at what Federal said again....... "Stress Corrosion Cracking"... Since I said it comments have shortened to just 'corrosion'

If the primer cups are final formed without an anneal following.... the tight corner is 'stressed' where the brass is worked the most; hence harder.
I believe the 'Stress' Federal speaks of is this tight formed corner. My failures (Federal) could be seen 'cracked' under magnification on both sides of the gas leak. And they all occurred at the radius and nowhere else.

I very much appreciate 'pierce' going by the wayside for our example talked about in this thread!

Eutectic

[Down South]

Happened to me with a batch of CCI SP primers someone gave me. Found out later those primers, that batch had been recalled for same problem, but years ago. But they were piercing at the primer strike.

[MarkP]

An excellent example and reminder why we should have safety glasses on when shooting, even with low pressure plinking loads.

[Jeff H]

I have two bolt faces pitted from Federal 210M primers I bought and used in the mid-eighties. I believe my Dad's still has a pitted bolt face from this batch as well.

One is a 257 Roberts M98 custom my Dad built for me and the other a Ruger M77 (Tang Safety) custom we built together. I believe my Dad's was one of his custom 98 257s as well.

Neither rifle had ever been subjected to "hot" loads and I have always considered the pitting to be an embarrassment because blowing primers (the way I was raised) was the epitome of irresponsible loading and it was something to be ashamed of.

My Dad and I both had this problem, we both wrote to Federal and we both got snide replies about "hot-rodding" our rifles.

They made no inquiries about the loads or guns and expressed no interest in trying to determine the cause or set things right.

[Tatume]

Today I got a call from a lady at Winchester. She requested some of my fired cases with perforated primers, which I agreed to give them. They are sending UPS to get the cases. I'll let you know of further developments.

[curator]

I've been seeing these not often but continuously at my gun range where 90% of the rifle shooters are also reloaders. Winchester large Rifle primers made recently. I suspect the Winchester primer factory dropped quality control a notch to catch up on the demand. I have had several in the last box of 1000. Certainly NOT related to high pressure when I am loading .308 Win. with cast bullets at 1600 fps.

[Whitespider]

All of the primers were pierced (synonymous with "perforated"). "Rupture" implies a more widespread failure.

Pierced; (mechanically inflicted damage or alteration, typically from the outside working inward) perforated, bored, drilled, holed, punched, punctured, riddled, lanced, run through, skewered, speared, spiked, stabbed

Perforated; (mechanically inflicted damage or alteration, typically from the outside working inward) pierced, bored, drilled, holed, punched, punctured, riddled, lanced, run through, skewered, speared, spiked, stabbed

Ruptured; (failure resulting from defect or weakness, typically from the inside working outward) broken, cracked, breached, burst, split, fissured, separated, parted, schismed


I'm thinking "ruptured" primers, not "pierced" or "perforated" primers... piercing of primers is normally caused by the firing pin (or, in conjunction with the firing pin).
But hey, that's just me.

[Whitespider]

A piercing may cause a rupture... but the opposite ain't true.

If you use a pin to "pierce" or "perforate" an inflated balloon it will "rupture"... on the other hand, if you continue to increase the air pressure inside the balloon, eventually the weakest part of it will fail, causing the balloon to "rupture" without any need for a "piercing" or "perforation".

[ofreen]

Happened to me with a batch of CCI SP primers someone gave me. Found out later those primers, that batch had been recalled for same problem, but years ago. But they were piercing at the primer strike.

CCI550s were recalled back in the 80's. The leaks damaged the hammer nose on my old S&W M28. The recoil shield bushing still shows the scars.

[Tatume]

Winchester called me today. The nice lady said they did indeed find an issue with the primers, and they are going to replace the case. They are sending UPS to pick up the remainder of the faulty primers tomorrow, and will ship new primers to me right away.

[44man]

Winchester called me today. The nice lady said they did indeed find an issue with the primers, and they are going to replace the case. They are sending UPS to pick up the remainder of the faulty primers tomorrow, and will ship new primers to me right away.
Wonderful. They will correct the problem, I am sure.

[Tatume]

Olin came through with a fresh case of primers to replace the defective ones that were prone to perforation. They just arrived, safe and sound.

Take care, Tom

[JWFilips]

Since I was only in for 300 of that bad lot.... Winchester sent me a check to more then cover the price from my LGS
I was worried about the brick of 1000 I bought a few weeks later but they were from a different plant & lot and those are working excellently!
Jim